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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Mar 1924

Vol. 6 No. 31

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - LAW CHARGES.

I move: "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £5,107, be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for the expenses of Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Charges, including a grant in relief of expenses payable by Statute out of local rates."

The original net estimate for law charges for 1923-24 was £54,154, and a Supplementary Vote of £5,107 is now required. Additional expenditure to that already estimated for would be required under sub-heads B and F, and it will be necessary to open a new sub-head for the expenses of American litigation in regard to Dáil Eireann Funds. In regard to sub-head B, State Solicitors, the additional amount required is entirely due to the fact that the salaries of State Solicitors in the quarter ended the 31st March, 1923, fell to be paid out of this year's Vote. The reason for this was that the salaries of State Solicitors were not sanctioned until August, 1923, and consequently it was not possible to pay this amount out of the 1923-24 Vote.

The Supplementary Estimate under this sub-head is, therefore, in the nature of a re-vote. In the table supplied, sub-head F, fees to counsel, the estimated additional expenditure is occasioned by the removal of certain cases from military to Civil Courts, and the fact that Civil Courts are now functioning more normally. Sub-head G.G., expenses of litigation in the U.S.A., with reference to Dáil Funds, provision for the expenses of this litigation was made to some extent in the External Affairs Vote where there is an item of £1,750 under sub-head B 6, but it has now been decided that these expenses are to be borne on the Law Charges Vote. The expenditure up to date amounts to about £4,000, and it has been paid from the External Affairs Vote, and is due to be repaid to that Vote. It is estimated that a further sum of £1,000 will be required up to the end of the current financial year. A certain proportion of the sum required is in the nature of a re-vote. The estimated total savings on this Vote for 1923-24 amount to £4,843. The most substantial savings are under sub-head D, bailiffs, where the savings are expected to amount to £1,540. A provision of £2,500 was made under this sub-head for the payment of bailiffs, provided under Section 2 of the Enforcement of Law (Occasional Powers) Act, 1923. It is estimated that a saving of £1,200 will be effected under sub-head A, Assize Expenditure, for the obvious reason that the Judges did not go out on Circuit. The other savings call for no special comment. That recalls to my mind a mistake I made in the previous Estimate. The savings were not made in connection with bailiffs, but with process servers, and the serving of processes.

May I ask the Minister if he can give a comparison of the salaries paid to what are known as State Solicitors as against the salaries paid to similar officers under the old regime, called Crown Solicitors, and if he can give us a comparison of what the Clerks of the Crown and Peace were formerly paid, and the salaries paid to the corresponding officials under our regime?

There is no corresponding official to the Clerk of the Crown and Peace yet. That awaits the passing of the Judiciary Bill. I cannot exactly, at the moment, give a comparison of the salaries paid to the State Solicitors and the old Crown Solicitors, but the salaries paid to the State Solicitors are higher than those that were paid to the Crown Solicitors, but they are doing a much wider range of work than the Crown Solicitors did. I am not quite certain of what the range of the Crown Solicitor's work was, but it was mainly confined to criminal prosecutions. The State Solicitors are doing all State work that requires a solicitor in their respective counties. They are dealing, for instance, with the recovery of Land Commission Annuities.

They always did that.

No. The State Solicitors are dealing with the revenue. There were solicitors dealing, for instance, with that particular work and the Land Commission work in each county, as apart altogether from the Crown Solicitor. Different departments in the old days had their own solicitors in the various areas doing work which is now being done by the State Solicitors. There is now in each county only one solicitor for doing every class of work that might be required. I have not the figures at the moment to give a comparison. I think some statement was given of the comparative cost of the new system and the old system when the main Estimates were before the Dáil. If not, I could give it, and I could be asked for it when the next year's Estimates come up. I understand the arrangement is one that is economical and satisfactory.

Deputy Gorey will find the figures he wants on page 29 of the return of staffs in Government Departments. That shows that on the 1st April, 1922, there were 29 Crown Solicitors at a total cost of, salary and bonus, £14,464. Their cost per head, and the cost of the staff serving, was £499. Now there are 28 solicitors at a total cost of salary, with no bonus, of £16,100, an average of £575 per head, an increase of £76 per head in the last eighteen months. I think that possibly a little more explanation from the Minister might show why it should be necessary to raise the salaries to that extent.

Salaries and bonus combined are quite a different matter altogether from raising the salary. I am sorry I had not the figures available.

The difference is £154 per head.

The Crown Solicitor, I take it, had many other opportunities of earning fees. Am I to understand that the State Solicitor is in the same position, or is he a permanent officer not practising privately? If the salary is an inclusive one, which I doubt, I take it that the duties involved may require his whole time if all these various new activities are imposed upon the State Solicitor. Will he have any other time to devote to his own practice, or is he in exactly the same position as the Crown Solicitor was in the old days with regard to private practice?

Perhaps I might assist in this matter. The present arrangement under which these State Solicitors are appointed is, first of all, a purely temporary one. They have not been appointed as whole-time officers. They have been appointed to do all the local business of all Departments of State. Formerly you had Crown Solicitors, and in some places they are still continued as Sessional Crown Solicitors. They are different persons. You had in addition, the Solicitor for the Land Commission, who was not necessarily the same person as the Crown Solicitor, and who was paid separately for the work of recovering Land Commission annuities. Then, if the Valuation Office had valuation appeals, they did not necessarily go to the Crown Solicitor; they might employ some other solicitor. The same thing happened with the Revenue Department in connection with Income Tax business or other Revenue matters. Now the position is that these State Solicitors have been appointed on a temporary basis to do all the work of the State of every kind and for all Departments. The whole thing is temporary, for the reason that at present there is in every county a large mass of business connected with the Damage to Property Act. Until that is disposed of—because it does exhaust their time to a very large extent and prevents them from taking a large amount of private practice—the salaries have been fixed for the current period on the present basis. It is intended to review them when the normal work of a State Solicitor can be really estimated, There are certain range of private work which they are excluded from. For instance, they are not allowed to undertake the defence of prisoners or any class of licensing business. They are also necessarily excluded at present from the remunerative class of business of presenting claims under the Damage to Property Act.

That applied under the old system.

Not business under the Damage to Property Act.

Because it did not exist.

Therefore, there is a temporary arrangement. Under the old system, certainly, the defence of prisoners was excluded. Now they lose this valuable source of income of preparing claims for private clients. We have required, wherever they have private clients, that they must not deal with business in relation to the Damage to Property Act. Of course, by concentrating all the work of the State in a particular person, he is also excluded from appearing for the other side, for fees and ordinary costs, in all the classes of business that are handed over to him at a fixed salary. For instance, many solicitors make quite a large amount of money by appearing for persons in Income Tax appeals and so on. The State Solicitor loses that. As I say, the arrangement is temporary during the present abnormal period and condition of public business through the country. When the Damage to Property Act business has come to a conclusion, it is intended to review the position of the State Solicitors and to consider the amount that will be their fixed remuneration.

Will the Attorney-General tell us whether it is possible to review the emoluments for existing State Solicitors while they are still holding office, or can the review only take place when a vacancy arises?

The appointment of the existing State Solicitors is based upon a letter in which they were told that they are appointed temporarily, and, in point of fact, I think for six months. They have been told that at the end of so many months the matter can be reconsidered.

Question put, and agreed to.

I move to report progress.

What course is it proposed to adopt in regard to Votes Number 3 and 11, which have been postponed? Is it intended to take them at the end of the other Estimates or immediately on the resumption?

I would be inclined to take them immediately. I presume the discussion in regard to the Army situation will take place at 3 o'clock. When that is over, if we have time this evening, I propose to proceed with these Estimates.

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