Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 May 1924

Vol. 7 No. 3

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - GARDA SIOCHANA BILL, 1924. (SECOND STAGE.)

MINISTER for HOME AFFAIRS (Mr. O'Higgins)

I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. It will be recollected that when the Gárda Síochána (Temporary Provisions) Bill was before the Dáil last July it was objected that the heavy legislative programme did not permit of sufficient time being given for that detailed consideration of the provisions of the Bill which some of the Deputies regarded as desirable. To meet those objections it was agreed to insert a clause limiting the operation of that measure to a period of one year, or until other provisions should be made by law for the regulation of the Force.

Prior to the passing of the temporary Act the Government had organised the Civic Guard to police the Saorstát, exclusive of the Dublin Metropolitan Police District. The title of the Force was altered by that Act to the Gárda Síochána. The temporary Act established the Gárda Síochána. The present Bill proposes to make permanent provision for the maintenance and regulation of the Force. The provisions of the Bill are in the main identical with those of the temporary Act, with certain modifications necessary for a permanent Act. It proposes to empower the Executive Council to continue to raise, train, equip, pay and maintain the Gárda Síochána, and from time to time to determine, within certain specified limits, the strength of the Force.

Subject to general regulations to be made by the Minister for Home Affairs, it proposes to vest in a Commissioner the general direction and control of the Force, and it provides that the appointment of the Commissioner and other officers shall be made by the Executive Council with whom also shall rest the power of dismissing these officers, or reducing them to the rank of Sergeant or Guard.

As I emphasised when the temporary Bill was before the Dáil, this Force is not local, but is a National Police Force, and it is, therefore, essential that it should not exist outside the authority of the Executive Council, in which is vested all the delegated power and authority of the people. The provision that all the officers of the Force shall be appointed by the Executive Council will give a proper constitutional derivation to their authority and a proper direction to their allegiance. As a corollary, the powers of dismissal or removal from officer rank must also rest with the Executive Council, but it is important that it should be borne in mind that in exercising these powers the Executive Council will act through well-defined channels and will, as a matter of normal practice, act on the advice of the Commissioner to whom they have entrusted the general direction and control of the Force.

The proposed maximum numbers within which the Executive Council may fix, from time to time, the working strength of the Force, are set out in the First Schedule. The normal minimum strength required is estimated at about 5,300; the proposed statutory maximum is 6,300, leaving a margin of 1,000 to meet contingencies. The minimum estimate of 5,300 is based on a scheme of distribution which provides for the establishment of 837 stations and an allocation of one Sergeant and four Guards to a normal station. It is possible that additional stations may be required, and that it may be found necessary to increase the strength of some of the stations. It is proposed to vest in the Minister for Home Affairs the power to determine, from time to time, the distribution of the Force.

The declaration, in the form set forth in the Second Schedule, to be taken by all members of the Force is in similar terms to that prescribed in the temporary Act. It embodies a pledge to render good and true service and obedience to Saorstát Eireann and its Constitution and Government, and a declaration that the member concerned does not and will not belong to any political society or secret society. It would obviously be improper to allow members of a police force, whose functions it is to serve the people impartially, to become associated, while holding office, with partisan politics, and it is clearly impossible to allow them to join an organisation the commitments of which are not publicly known.

A section in the temporary Act providing for the retention of a reserve at the Depôt has been omitted from this Bill, as it is not considered necessary to constitute a separate statutory entity for this purpose. A portion of the general force will normally be located at the Depôt to meet calls that may be made for extra police from particular areas. Owing to the short time which was available for training a whole force, it was found necessary to send many men to the country after a shorter period of training at the Depôt than would be given in normal circumstances. Many of these men will be called back for a further period of training, and for some time to come the number of men at the Depôt will exceed the number (i.e., about 350) which will be required as a reserve when the training and distribution of the Force is completed. The reserve will, of course, include recruits in training to fill vacancies caused by retirements, dismissals, etc.

During the six months ended 30th April nearly 100 Sergeants and Guards resigned. The proportion of retirements of men of short service is very heavy in all police forces. The modern experience of the English forces is that about one-tenth of all recruits resign before completing a year's service. The remaining provisions of the Bill are practically identical with those in the temporary Act. A clause is added to provide for the continuance in force of orders and regulations made under that Act.

It occurs to me that I should avail of the occasion of moving the Second Reading of this Bill to give Deputies certain general information regarding the force. The strength on the 1st May, 1924, totalled 5,099. The proposed strength is 5,319. The statutory maximum in the present Bill would be 6,300. The strength on the 1st May was made up as follows:—One Commissioner, one Deputy-Commissioner, one Assistant-Commissioner, one Surgeon, 20 Chief Superintendents, 119 Superintendents and Inspectors, 929 Sergeants, 4,027 Guards. The present distribution of the Force is that there are altogether 4,332 allocated to stations through the country. At the Depôt at the moment there are 763 members of the Force. Certain other information has a bearing rather on Finance, comparisons of pay, etc., and would, I think, be more properly dealt with on the Civic Guard Estimate.

Mr. JOHNSON

There are a couple of points to which I would like again to draw attention concerning the difference in the method of treatment of officers and men. I read in Section 10 that no member of the Guard below the rank of Chief Superintendent shall be at liberty to resign unless he gives notice or has been permitted. That leaves me to assume that those who have the rank of Chief Superintendent or above it may resign without notice. It rather suggests that those of the rank of Chief Superintendent or above it are not very important. They may resign any time without doing anybody any harm. They may all resign together without doing the Force any harm. Nobody below that rank can be permitted to resign without giving one month's notice or having special permission. I do not understand why there should be that differentiation. It seems to me unreasonable to perpetuate a distinction between the higher ranks and the lower ranks in a matter of this kind.

In Section 7, we have a provision that the Minister may change the regulations as he wishes, subject to the sanction of the Dáil. Persons joining this Force on certain conditions are not allowed to resign except on giving one month's notice. It seems to me that the notice ought to be equal on both sides, and there ought to be a formal understanding that if a change of conditions is to be made it should be by consent, or with liberty on either side to break the contract. If we are considering this matter as a matter of contract, which is the principle that has been adopted in the Army Act, then the terms should be clear that either side may break the contract on due notice. This section says that the Minister may from time to time by order regulate the rate of pay and allowances, the only difference being that such orders shall be laid before the Oireachtas. I think the position that the men of the Guard are placed in is one not quite in accordance with the requirements, and that we should not assume, as this Bill seems to assume, that once a man enters the Civic Guard he may be placed on quite different conditions, that the terms may be altered by the Dáil, even without his having any voice in the matter or without his having any right to refuse to accept that unless by giving one month's notice. I think this matter was raised on the last occasion, and I raise it again because my view in the matter has not changed. Otherwise, I have no opposition to make to the Bill.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Taking the first of Deputy Johnson's points, the discrimination in Section 10 between officers of the rank of Chief Superintendent and upwards and the other members of the Force with regard to resignation, that is not due to the explanation suggested by Deputy Johnson that these officers were considered unimportant and that they may go at any time from day to day without serious damage to the Force. It was rather the contrary consideration, that it was considered inadvisable to keep on, even for so short a period as a month, in a position of considerable responsibility, an individual who had definitely made up his mind to leave the Force. Chief Superintendents are in charge of rather large areas; they have a great many stations under their command and supervision, and their responsibilities are very great. An individual who, for one reason or another, possibly seriously discontented and disgruntled, holding such a rank, ought not to be compelled against his will to remain on in his office and continue to serve for a month after he had decided to resign. I think it would be unwise.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Minister might surely authorise in writing such a person to resign if he desires, just as other persons may do.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It was not considered wise to attach to these officers the condition of the month's notice. It seems to me that if an officer of that rank and responsibility makes up his mind that he would prefer to be out of the Force, the best thing to do is to let him go at once, and we do not attach to that rank the condition attached to the rest of the Force. Naturally in the case of sergeants and guards you want some time to make alternative arrangements if you are met with the desire on the part of individual members to resign. The Deputy has expressed his view on Section 7. It is, of course, a point of view, a point of view which I do not share. We must retain freedom to change from time to time the conditions by regulations, but it is not true to suggest that those conditions are changed absolutely without contact or consultation with the men affected. Both the officers and the guards have in the Force their representative bodies, elected by themselves, and matters affecting the men and their conditions of service are discussed with these representative bodies. If conditions of service are so radically altered from the conditions accepted by the individual member when joining, then, of course, he has his alternative of resignation, and normally the period of a month would not be insisted on. It will be understood by Deputies that the month mentioned in Section 10 is a maximum, but that the normal practice would be to make the speediest possible arrangements for the release of any member, whether guard, sergeant or inspector, who wished to retire from the Force. It is not quite sound for Deputy Johnson to suggest that it is a case of dogs tied and stones loose, and that there is no freedom on the part of a member of the Force. He has this freedom to withdraw from his contractual relations, if the Deputy wishes to regard it in that light. He has his freedom to leave the Force if the conditions are so radically altered from the conditions on which he joined that he no longer wishes to remain a member.

Question put and agreed to. Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, May 14th.