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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Jul 1924

Vol. 8 No. 19

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 31—MINISTRY OF JUSTICE.

Motion made and question proposed —"That a sum not exceeding £24,238 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Justice."

This is a vote for my own Department, the Department of Justice, formerly Home Affairs. The net estimate shows an increase of £7,738 over the estimate for last year. The principal increases are under sub-head A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—£8,516, and sub-head AA, which is new, for the cost of Film Censorship, and which appears for the first time on the Estimate, £3,382. Sub-head E is in connection with expenses of winding up the affairs of the late Dáil Eireann Courts, and that shows a decrease of £4,500. Under sub-head A the increase is largely accounted for by reason of the transfer from the Vote of the Gárda Síochána of the expenses of the staff engaged on the keeping of the accounts and payments to that Force. Formerly the greater part of the accountancy work of the Gárda Síochána was done in the Depôt and the Vote for the Gárda Síochána bore that expense. Since then we simply improved and tightened the administration, so that the staff has been transferred to, and is in closer connection with the Ministry, and the expense of the staff is now borne on the Ministry's Vote. The staff consists of one clerk-in-charge of accounts, at a salary of £550 to £700 per annum; four junior executive officers, from £100 to £400 per annum; six lower clerical officers, at from £60 to £250; eight temporary clerks, from £2 15s. a week to £4, and one typist. This is a civilian staff, and the Gárda Síochána Vote is accounted for by the Ministry of Justice. It was considered that the accounting work should be done under the direct supervision of the Ministry, and accordingly the transfer was made. In fact, administratively, the executive head of the Department of Justice is the Accounting Officer for the Vote of the Gárda Síochána.

There is an item of £470 for the administration of the Aliens Restrictions Act which may require some explanation. It is made up as follows:—There is a sum of £370 for an Immigration Inspector (salary and allowances) and a provision of £100 for the payment of a deputy for the above officer for extra assistance during the Summer months, and for repayments to the Customs and Excise Authorities of any expenses incurred in administering the Aliens Restrictions Act at Moville. All aliens coming from abroad, that is from outside Saorstát Eireann or Great Britain or Northern Ireland, wishing to land in the Saorstát, must receive permission to do so from an Immigration Officer. On the Immigration Officer rests the full responsibility for seeing that no undesirable alien is permitted to land, and to that effect each alien landing has to be carefully examined. The routine for the landing and examination of aliens is as follows:—The Immigration Officer boards the arriving vessel before anyone has left it and is supplied with the passenger manifest. All passengers desiring to land—Irish, British, and aliens—are then examined by him. He has nothing to do as regards passengers listed as Irish and British, but to see that their nationality is genuine, and that they are not aliens in possession of forged passports. Aliens must be in possession of passports duly vised when necessary. A visa is not required in the case of many foreign countries. The Immigration Officer is empowered to refuse leave to land to any alien who

(a) is not in a position to support himself and his dependents.

(b) if coming to take up employment has not a permit from the Ministry of Industry and Commerce;

(c) if a lunatic, idiot or mentally deficient;

(d) has been certified for medical reasons to be unfit to land;

(e) has been sentenced in a foreign country for any crime within the meaning of the Extradition Acts 1870-1906;

(f) is the subject of a deportation or an expulsion order in force;

(g) has been prohibited from landing by the Minister for Home Affairs.

On the Immigration Officer rests the responsibility of deciding, in doubtful cases, whether a person is of Irish or British nationality, or is an alien. Exhaustive instructions have been issued on this point for the guidance of Immigration Officers.

There is an allowance of £50 for inspection under the Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876, which represents the salary of the Vivisection Inspector.

The figure of £868 for messenger and Protective Force Services represents the proportion of the total cost of these services at Government Buildings, which is attributable to the Ministry of Home Affairs. There are certain services common to all Departments, and a simple apportionment appears on the Vote of each Ministry. The sum of £300 provided for overtime is to meet the cost of the extra duty performed by the Gárda Síochána Accounts Branch in the first week of each month, during which period the whole Force throughout the country is paid. These periodical payments involve a great pressure of work on that particular staff, and necessitates overtime by them. It was, therefore, necessary to insert a provision of £300 to that end.

It has been found necessary to provide a sum of £2,000 for contemplated additional staff. The constantly increasing scope of the duties of the Ministry have rendered very difficult the fixing of a definite establishment, and in view of the quantity of legislation recently passed, and still pending, which directly affects the scope of the Ministry's duty, it is considered advisable to make provision to this extent for extra staff. There are two posts for which provision was made last year, and which do not appear this year, the post of Adviser on Police Organisation and the post of Civil Commissioner at Pettigo. These disappear from this year's Estimate.

With regard to the Film Censorship (sub-head AA), I made in March last a rather detailed statement regarding the financial arrangements of the Film Censorship. Payment is made to the Irish Bonded Film Store, Limited, at the rate of 10s. per thousand feet of film shown, and this represents the only payment made by the Ministry to the firm in question. It is not anticipated that more than 65,000 feet or 70,000 feet of film will be shown per week, but it is, nevertheless, thought advisable, in view of the lack of practical experience, to make ample provision for the cost of this service. Accordingly, the sum of £2,652 under the heading, "cost of showing films," is set down, and this would include the reshowing of films. The sum of £300 "provision for additional staff," is intended to meet the expenses of any extra clerical assistance the Censor may require, and to pay for the services of a deputy should the Censor himself, for any reason, be unable to act or be absent.

Is that sum of £2,652 set aside for the benefit of a private trading concern? Is that the idea of making provision for this large amount?

I do not know what the Deputy means by the phrase "set aside for a private trading concern." It is set aside as an estimate of liabilities.

Is it intended that it will eventually find its way into the pockets of the Irish Bonded Film Store Company?

No. As I stated, it is not anticipated that more than 65,000 feet or 70,000 feet of film will be shown per week. As a matter of fact, that figure is there to meet the largest possible average footage which is considered to be in or about 100,000 feet per week. The anticipation of the Department is that the average footage will prove to be 65,000 or 70,000 feet per week, and consequently that figure of 100,000 feet is unlikely to be reached. This entails no loss to the public. It is not in any real sense a charge on the State. The Censorship of Films Act provides that the fees shall be fixed in such a manner as to meet the expense of censoring, and no more. If it is found that more than an average of a hundred thousand feet per week is dealt with, it will be possible to reduce the present fees of one-fifth of a penny per foot for ordinary films and one-tenth of a penny for topical films. The scale of fees under the Act must be arranged to ensure that this particular service is self-supporting. It is not meant to be a charge on the State, or to be a revenue-producing service, but the fees must be fixed to meet the expenses of the censor's staff and any expenses incidental. There is an item of £500 under sub-head B for travelling and subsistence, an allowance which is intended to meet expenses incurred by officers who have to travel. The Immigration Inspector at Cobh, for instance, has to make weekly journeys to Cork, and has occasionally to come to Dublin for consultations at the Ministry.

As regards sub-head C, incidental expenses £500, the chief charge against that would likely be the issuing of public notices and advertisements of a statutory nature, for instance, notices, such as the notices of the commencement and termination of summer-time. Provision is made for the purchase of newspapers and postage of letters and so forth. Telegrams and telephones, £520. Last year the amount was found to be inadequate in practice, and the amount now is based on our experience of last year, and on the increased scope of the work of the Department. Expenses in regard to the winding-up of the affairs of the late Dáil Eireann Courts are estimated at £1,500. That is a reduction of £4,500 as compared with last year. Considerable progress has been made in clearing off debts in connection with the late Dáil Courts, and but for the fact that members of the staff who are dealing with these claims were also engaged in the work of the Winding-up Commission, the probability is that we would not have to ask for any vote in connection with this particular service this year. The debts that had been outstanding in connection with the Dáil Courts system may be classified as costs due to solicitors who conducted prosecutions, arrears in the remuneration of registrars and clerks, the cost of escorts for prisoners and their maintenance, minor expenses, such as lighting, stationery, and so on. There are also sums paid by way of deposit for the hearing of cases which were not, in fact, heard. We have been making every effort to settle outstanding claims. That settlement has not been quite completed. There has been delay owing to the fact that some of the staff were engaged on work in connection with the Winding-up Commission. I think that covers all I wish to say, but if there is any information which any Deputy requires I shall be glad to give it.

Although the Minister's statement is very exhaustive, he did not explain the reason for the very large increase in bonus. The bonus has increased from £3,760 to over £7,000. In part that is, no doubt, due to the transfer of clerks from the Gárda Síochána, but as eight are temporary clerks who do not get a bonus, it seems to me to be a large increase. Is the Minister satisfied that the Film Censor gets an adequate salary for the important duties he has to perform? It must be tiring work, and he only gets £250 without bonus.

The Deputy may be glad to know that his salary has been increased recently to £400.

Is he a permanent or a temporary officer? I know he is a statutory officer. To give him £400 a year without bonus is to place him in an anomalous position.

I want to raise the question of the partial failure of the Minister to make proper provision for establishing machinery for the effective checking of weights and measures. Attention has been drawn to this matter here by questions on three or four occasions, and the answer on every occasion was to the effect that so far as the district concerned was affected, an examination was being held for the purpose of appointing members of the Gárda Síochaná to carry out the work. When members realise that there has been no effective check on weights and measures for the last four or five years, they will realise the importance of this matter, especially as we have to face the fact that profiteering of an unscrupulous kind has been going on. I am informed by people who have experience in this work that there has been failure on the part of the Government to check weights and measures, and that when weights get rusty there is a reduction of the standard weight. I have been told in my own town that a person who has standard weights and measures has been supplied with goods whose weight was below that of the quantity demanded. No unnecessary delay should be tolerated by the Minister in his department in bringing into operation machinery which will mean an effective check on the weights and measures which are in operation. The fact that there has been no check for four or five years makes it rather imperative on the Minister to have steps more than of a normal kind taken to see that this state of affairs is remedied. The Minister must have noticed, in the newspapers, controversies over this matter. I drew attention to it before on the Estimates, but so far as I know there appears to have been no great advance made in regard to the machinery which was in operation twelve months ago.

The Minister might give the Dáil some information as to the advance made on this question. On the question of the film censorship I will say nothing beyond this, that if I did attempt to say anything on this matter, the Minister might say I was trying to pull his leg now, inasmuch as he said the last time that my leg was being pulled by someone else. The Minister has provided an Estimate which means the showing of 100,000 feet of film. That was disputed by the Minister as being an average figure.

Experience points to the figure of 70,000 being the average.

I take it the Minister in his wisdom—and the Minister is a wise man—considers that it is fairly reasonable to assume that that amount of film would be shown in the picture houses. Does the provision for additional staff mean the staff employed by a private trade film company, or is it the staff to be provided by the Minister?

By the Censor.

We will leave it to time and to the anticipations of the Minister to prove at the end of the period now being provided for, whether or not his Estimate is a fair and correct one.

I would like to ask the Minister what is the intention of his Department in connection with assistants to what were formerly known as Clerks of the Crown and Peace. These people have been treated badly. They have been Government servants, practically speaking, but have never been recognised either by the British or the Irish Governments. They are doing very valuable work, but they have no lease of their job. I would like to know the intention of the Minister in connection with the question of their establishment.

I would like to assure Deputy Davin that we appreciate the necessity of getting out inspectors as early as possible to deal with weights and measures, but I would ask him, on his side, to consider that you do not get those men readymade, that you have to select men and put them through a very careful course at the Depot, and put them through an examination at the end of that course, before you can feel satisfied that you have men competent for the work. It would not be just, either to traders or the public, to send out men if you had any doubt whatever of their competence. One batch of men who had been trained at the work sat for an examination set by the Civil Service Commission, and, I am glad to say, did remarkably well at the examination. Those men are at work through the country. More men are being trained to the work, but it needs training and a testing examination at the conclusion of the training, before you can turn men loose on that particular class of duty. I will under take to do everything possible to speed up the process, but I cannot say that any speeding up is possible. I do not think it is. We realised, before questions were set down at all, the importance of getting men out on that work, and I do not believe anything has been left undone to ensure a speedy supply to meet the demand that was undoubtedly there. There is no use in fighting old battles over again about the film censorship. I have nothing to add to what I said in March, April, May, and June of the present year.

On what page and what column?

I wonder would Deputy O'Connell care to raise on this Vote the matter of which he spoke this evening?

The matter I brought to the notice of the Minister this evening was what had been conveyed to me to-day with regard to some eighteen or twenty prisoners arrested and detained on the 9th instant. As has been represented to me, they have been detained without trial or charge since that date. I gave the Minister all the information I had with regard to the matter.

My information on the matter is rather detailed. The history of the case in connection with those eighteen men who were arrested is as follows:—In May, 1922, cattle were driven from the lands of Messrs. Arthur and Robert Gentleman at Mount Cole, County Kerry, and since that date persistent interference has gone on. In December, 1923, a seizure order was made under the Public Safety (Emergency Powers) Act, and seventeen trespassing cattle were seized and sold. Despite that, cattle were again put on the land, and, on the 18th March, 1924, a house situated, on the lands which was in the course of repair to accommodate workmen, was maliciously damaged to prevent occupation. On the 11th of May, 1924, shots were fired at the owners by masked men, and they narrowly escaped injury. At that stage the Gárda Síochána and responsible officials decided that if the individuals, who were well known to be connected with this series of outrages, were allowed to continue at large, there might very easily be fatal consequences, and instructions were issued to the Gárda Síochána to effect the arrest of the men concerned. On the 14th instant orders were issued directing their continued detention under the Public Safety (Powers of Arrest and Detention) Act, 1924. The persons now in prison are well known locally as being concerned with the outrage from the beginning, that is, since May of 1922, and it seems undesirable to release them at the moment. Their arrest, therefore, and their detention were carried out under the Public Safety Act and are legal. With regard to certain additional complaints which have been made as to their conditions of custody for the first week, I have not detailed information of that, but I am prepared to look further into it. The main fact is that these men were properly arrested and have been in legal custody from the day of their arrest. They are suspected very strongly of being the chief perpetrators in a series of outrages which date back almost three years.

Am I to understand that it is not proposed to make a formal charge against those men?

That is a question that will be looked into. It is doubtful whether evidence to support a formal charge will be forthcoming. It is that kind of a case to which I have referred again and again in the Dáil, where you find something that falls very short of knowledge, and yet you have not a case which might be substantiated by evidence in the court. You have a situation where a district is so terrorised that whilst almost every man, woman and child in the area knows who is responsible for particular outrages, you would not get evidence that would ensure a conviction. Deputy Corish asked about the position of Clerks of the Crown and Peace.

Their assistants.

The Minister may also take advantage of the opportunity of stating what is to be the future position of Clerks of the Crown and Peace or their successors.

That scarcely arises on this Vote at all. The Deputy is rather premature. That is a matter that will be very carefully considered when Part II. of the Courts of Justice Act comes into operation. I do not think that it is properly raised on this Vote at all. I could only say at the moment that the question of the Courts Staffs is receiving very close attention from the Ministry—as close attention as the many other calls upon the Ministry's staff permits, and that we see ahead a time when it must receive very detailed examination under the Courts of Justice Act, when the new courts and the new Circuit Courts come into operation. The proposal simply is that we are to have one chief establishment officer answering to the Ministry for all matters connected with the courts' staffs from top to bottom—the staffs of the Supreme Court, the High Court, and the Circuit Courts. But I am not in a position to give detailed information, because we ourselves have not come to definite decisions in connection with that matter.

Vote put and agreed to.
Sitting suspended at 6.35 p.m., and resumed at 7.30 p.m., An Ceann Comhairle in the Chair.
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