Before we take up public business, would the President say in what order he proposes we should proceed?
ORDER OF BUSINESS.
I propose at the adjournment this evening to move that the Dáil shall reassemble on Tuesday week, 18th November. As to the items on the Order Paper, we propose to take No. 2—County Courts Appeal Bill— first, No. 3—Housing (Building Facilities) (Amendment) Bill—second, No. 4—Live Stock Breeding Bill—third, and Local Government Bill fourth. But I have to ask for leave to allow Deputy Hogan to raise, at half-past three, the question of which he gave notice yesterday. There is an item on the Paper on private Business, but I take it that will not take more than half an hour.
Private Business would normally come on at 2 o'clock, but it appeared to me at the conclusion of the debate on Deputy McJenna's motion of Wednesday that it had concluded except for the reply of Deputy McKenna. If that takes half an hour Private Business could then be taken at 3 o'clock instead of 2, and Deputy Hogan's motion could come on at 3.30.
I do not think you can guarantee that the motion of Deputy McKenna will conclude in half an hour.
Perhaps it is well that I should give notice that I will move an amendment to the President's motion to the effect that we shall meet again on Tuesday next.
We will take the motion now that on rising to-day the Dáil shall adjourn to Tuesday week.
I beg to move that the Dáil on rising to-day shall adjourn to Tuesday, 18 November. The reasons for it are two-fold. In the first place, there-are five elections, and it is difficult, if not impossible, to attend here and take part in these elections. They constitute what may be called a miniature General Election. These elections are of considerable importance. The ordinary business of the various Departments occupies a very considerable length of time. Some Ministers have been unable to get away at all during the recess, and there are Bills which have not yet been introduced which require very careful consideration. During the Recess some Ministers were away in Geneva, and it was not possible to get consideration of measures which are of considerable importance and which have been promised. In the circumstances I think I am justified in asking the House to interrupt the ordinary course of the Session by one week, and I accordingly move this motion.
The President might have gone on and said there were twenty-five other reasons why the adjournment should be for a further week. Having stated the first, I suggest to the House that that is the reason why the President desires the Dáil should adjourn over next week. There are matters before us that are urgent, for instance, the Local Government Bill. When the question arose a fortnight ago of re-introducing the Bill with the amendments, a promise was given that no obstruction to the Second Reading of the new Bill by any prolonged debate would be made because of its urgency. Now we are right into the middle of the discussion on that Bill, and I submit that there is no satisfactory reason why we should not proceed with the discussion next week. In addition to that, we have notices on the Order Paper to the effect that other Committees will be sitting— a Joint Committee on the Liffey Electricity Bill, the Committee on Public Accounts, and there will be other Committees, I have no doubt. When these very important Committees will be sitting they will require the attendance of Deputies here in any case, but to comne right to the Kernel of this matter I want to submit to the House that it is raising a matter of very considerable constitutional importance. It has been a subject of complaint more than once that the Ministry and the Dáil are considered as, in the one case, the executive of a political party, and in the other case as an adjunct, that is to say, the Dáil is a mere adjunct to a ratifying body of the decisions of a political party. Because elections for members to fill vacancies in the Dáil are taking place in country, the Ministry which is not responsible as a Ministry to a Party but to the Dáil as a whole, comes forward and suggests that the Dáil should suspend its business to allow the members of one political party to conduct propaganda in the country. No matter how important elections may be for the fortunes of that party, it is putting the matter of bye-elections into a position superior to the interests and the business of the Dáil, because the fortunes of one party in the Dáil are at stake. I think that is evidence of failure to appreciate the position that the Dáil should hold in the country and in the institutions of Government. The Ministry should not, I submit, ask the Dáil to suspend its business over a period, simply for the purpose of allowing members of the party which supports the Government to go into the country to conduct an electoral campaign. If that is necessary there should be a dissolution. There is no occasion for anything of the kind, and I say that the business of the Dáil, the prestige of the Dáil and the dignity of the Dáil are of more importance than that a party in the country should have support in the conduct of its bye-elections.
I think that the matter is of very great importance. , It is setting a headline for successive Governments. It is not wise to invite future Governments to allow the business for the Dáil to be subordinated to the interests of the party which happens for the time being to be supporting the Government. I therefore urge very earnestly that the Dáil should not allow its sittings to be suspended in this way for this purpose. If there are contentious metters which require a full attendance of the Government party, let the least contentious matters be brought forward. A break now of a week will mean a prolongation of this portion of the session into close upon Christmas. Possibly, it may mean that the desires of the Minister for Local Government which already have been supported in the Dáil will be frustrated. , That may be a good thing or a bad thing from my point of view, but that is not the matter. The Dáil has definitely supported the Minister in his contentions and in his desires, but the Dáils wishes in that matter are running the risk of being frustrated to suit the convenience of a political party. I think that is placing the Dáil in a position of subordination to the interest of a party in the country, and I think that is very undesirable. I move, therefore, as an amendment, that on the adjournment to-day we adjourn to Tuesday afternoon.
I take it that is the same as a direct negative to the motion. I mean the defeat of the President's motion will involve a resumption on Tuesday in the ordinary way—will not?
For once in a way Deputy Johnson has been inaccurate. Of the two Committees to which he referred, the Committee on Public Accounts met this morning, November 7th; the Committee on the Liffey Bill does not meet until Tuesday, 25th November, so that no adjournment till the 18th can affect these two Committees.
It would certainly affect the Public Accounts Committee.
Another sitting has been arranged. I am not on that Committee, but I accept that. On the general principle of Deputy Johnson's plea I have a great deal of sympathy with his views. If this were a normal country, and we were living under normal conditions, I should object very much to such a proposition being brought forward as is being brought forward by the President, because it will involve us sitting on into July and August. But is is not a normal country—
Will it ever be normal?
And every party has not taken its palce in the Dáil. I hope to see the day when every party in the State will come into the Dáil. At present there is one party, perhaps I should say there are two parties, who have withdrawn themselves from the Dáil. These parties have an absolutely free hand for propaganda. They do not have to come down here, listen to the debates, and vote, and if the Government is to be given rudimentary fair play they ought to have some opportunity of meeting this propaganda. While they are tied to their offices in the Dáil they cannot do that. It makes for better public education to have Minister going down to the country and talking to the people. I only wish that they did more of it; I only wish that it would not take a bye-election to drag them on to the platform. But this will facilitate them in facing the country and explaining the several issues, what has been done and what is to be done, to the people of the country. I shall support the President's Motion, only I think he would have made it stronger if he had given us some idea of what work we have before us in the four weeks prior to Christmas. Are there many new Bills to be introduced? Are we to take up, for instance, the detailed consideration of the Defence Forces Bill, which must become law before the end of March?
Yes.
There are other Bills that have to be put through, and they are coming before us, like snowflakes, on the Order Parer. We have no idea of what wrok we have to do. Therefore, it would strengthen the President's case if he could tell us that we would not be prejudiced by a week's adjournment.
Deputy Johnson's main objection to this adjournment is that he does not think that the Local Government Bill will pass through quickly enough. As far as the majority of the people are concerned, I think they will not care how long you delay that Bill, and for that reason I will support the President's motion. I do not care about the holiday.
It is a pity that it did not come into the middle of the I toxicating Liquor Bill.
Other parties in this House are in the happy position of not having had the same experience of resignations, or losses through more lamentable causes, that we have had, and if there were such a case as has occurred of a large number of elections, the most sympathetic consideration would be given to any suggestion for an adjournment to enable them to fight the elections.
You have had siz months of delay in the case of some of these elections.
We have had six months in which we have been fairly busy, as I have explained. I quite admit that this is a cause of complaint, but I do say that it is a cause of complaint which may be answered. We are in the position of having to bow before other parties who have had better luck than we in the matter of not losing any of their members. The Local Government Bill will not be interrupted in its passage by reason of this week. It will be possible to have it passed into law before the end of the year. It is not really a question of the fortunes of a party; it is more a questions for the State. For many months, ever since the last General Election, every possible mode of propaganda has been used, not so much against the political parties that are represented here, as really against the State. People are issuing untrue statements concerning the work of the Dáil. To that extent it is a responsibility of the Government and of the Dáil and that the real issue, and the real circumstances, should be placed before the people. It is not possible to do that and to continue to work here. With regard to the Local Government Bill, I must say for my own part, that I have not had the time to examine that measure in the manner that I think was its due, and it was owing to the pressure of business that that was the case.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 44; Níl, 14.
Tá
- Earnan de Blaghd.
- Seóirse de Bhulbd.
- Séamus de Búrca.
- John J. Cole.
- Bryan R. Cooper.
- Louis J. D'Alton.
- John Daly.
- Patrick J. Egan.
- Seán de Faoite.
- John Good.
- John Hennigan.
- William Hewat.
- Liam T. Mac Cosgair.
- Séamus Mac Cosgair.
- Pádraig Mac Giollagáin.
- Risteárd Mac Liam.
- Seóirse Mac Niocaill.
- Liam Mac Sioghaird.
- James Sproule Myles.
- Martin M. Nally.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Micheál O hAonghusa.
- Ailfrid O Brein.
- Seán O Bruadair.
- Risteárd O Conaill.
- Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
- Séamus N. O Dóláin.
- Mícheál O Dubhghaill.
- Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
- Eamon S. O Dúgáin.
- Donchadh S. O Guaire.
- Mícheál R. O hIrearnáin.
- Seán O Laidhín.
- Aindriú O Laimhín.
- Séamus O Leadáin.
- Fionán O Loingsigh.
- Pádraic O Máille.
- Domhnall O Mocháin.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (An Ghaillimh).
- Pádraig K. O hOgáin (Luimnach).
- Caoimhghín O hUigín.
- Patrick W. Shaw.
- Liam Thrift.
- Nichols Wall.
Níl
- Pádraig F. Baxter.
- Seán Buitléir.
- David Hall.
- Connor Hogan.
- Tomás Mac Eóin.
- Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
- Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Tomás O Conaill.
- Aodh O Cúlacháin.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Sén O Duinnín.
- Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
Motion declared carried.