As to Deputy Gorey's point, I am perfectly certain that there are plenty of farmers, of whom I am one, who would be very glad to get money to drain land, and there are no engineering difficulties which would require anything more than the mere inspection by the Board of Works. We appreciate what Deputy Johnson said, that the money has to be spent quickly. There is no use in promising it, and having it coming back again to the Treasury. The money should be made available, and the actual work done as soon as possible. We appreciate the point, and I think there is not likely to be any complaint on that head.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES RESUMED.
I thoroughly approve of the action of the Ministry in devoting the major portion of this grant towards providing relief for the congested areas. It is clear, I think, from what some Deputies have said on this, and on other occasions, that there is not an adequate or genuine understanding of the real problem that exists in these areas. As the Minister pointed out, it is not a question of providing employment for people who are generally wage earners. There you have the problem of the small uneconomic holder. When speaking of the uneconomic holding we mean one that is not able to provide sustenance for the occupants.
AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE took the Chair at this stage.
Mr. O'CONNELL
The small holders are in a state of chronic distress during the greater part of the year. We know that especially during the war period the emigration of young men from these areas was very great. It would be equally great now if the same facilities for emigration existed. In those areas there were also small holders, and the sons of small farmers, who crossed to England and Scotland every year during the harvest. They brought back what they earned, and that money kept the little place at home going. That avenue is almost closed to these people now, and the distress is consequently all the greater.
Why is that avenue closed?
Mr. O'CONNELL
Because there is sufficient labour in England to do the necessary harvest work. England, like portions of Ireland, is going out of tillage which provided work for these people in the past. The problem is one, I am afraid, that many in the Dáil do not understand. I know that the Minister for Lands and Agriculture thoroughly appreciates the position, and the Government have shown that by devoting the major portion of this grant towards providing useful works in these areas. I think that is a wise decision.
I would like to deal with a subject that was referred to by Deputy Cooper. That was the question of the aid that might be given to the schools. The Deputy spoke about the unsanitary school buildings that there are in the country. There are a great many such buildings, but that is not the most urgent problem at the moment. The problem is to provide fuel for the schools. Even though the buildings are unsanitary it is worse that they should be without a fire at this particular time of the year. I have heard from various parts of the country stories of the hardships the children are suffering. Many of them have to go to these schools without breakfast, as no fuel is available. They have then to remain in cold and cheerless schools during the day. I hope it will be possible for the Minister for Finance to set aside a small sum of money with which to make provision in these areas for fuel. Heretofore a small contribution was made by the parents of the children, and from 30/- to £3 was paid to each school by the State, for cleaning it and providing fuel. That sum will be inadequate this year, and I hope the Minister will see his way to make some special provision for the schools situate in areas that are suffering from the scarcity of fuel.
I would like to refer to the Minister's statement about loans to farmers. Some time ago, when the Local Loans Fund was under discussion in the Dáil, I brought under the notice of the Minister for Finance the question of teachers' residences in connection with schools. At that time the Minister said he was looking into the matter and would see what could be done. I know that a great many managers of schools are prepared to build residences if they get loans on reasonable terms. That would do two things. Every house provided, no matter how it is provided, helps to remove the existing shortage of houses, and also provides work. A great many managers are ready to begin the work at once of providing residences in connection with the schools if loans were set aside for the purpose. As attention has now been drawn to the matter again, I hope the Minister for Finance will consider it.
Deputy Davin spoke about the development of the Irish coalfields, and I am compelled, as a director of the Wolfhill colliery, and as one who invested a considerable amount of money there, to tell him that it was the action of the party he represents that has thrown 200 men out of employment, and that has that colliery closed. These men have now to receive relief from the Government, while, if they had remained at their work, earning the decent and the good wages they had been paid, they would have established in the country an industry which, if developed, would, in my opinion, be the means in the future of employing a very large number of people.
That is no encouragement to the people who put their money into the industry and have lost it. It is very hard to expect anyone under such circumstances again to subscribe funds for industries that are treated such as that one was.
I welcome the relief scheme very sincerely. I know that some such scheme is very badly wanted, and I would like to suggest to the Minister that in certain counties like Westmeath, where the roads are good, a small sum might be set aside for small drainage grants. It could be used, perhaps, by local authorities in towns in draining districts in which a number of houses are at present surrounded by water. A small expenditure would enable the people to live in these houses during the winter. It is an important matter for those concerned, and I throw out the suggestion to the Minister for his consideration.
I would urge on the Minister that my constituency in the Co. Kildare deserves special attention. The facts are, that there is a great deal of unemployment there. In fact, it is so great that it will become a regular menace if something is not done to relieve it speedily. The break up of the big British camps that existed in that county resulted in a great deal of unemployment and a great deal of poverty, not alone amongst wage earners but also amongst other classes. The exit of the British, from the national point of view, was of course, a matter of great satisfaction, but it involved a great deal of suffering on those who had earned money from them. During the time of the British there was a great circulation of money week by week, and the fact that the people in that area have been deprived of the circulation of that money has, as I have said, caused a great deal of distress. The amount of money that is spent in County Kildare on home help is assuming enormous dimensions. I read in a local paper recently the report of speeches delivered by members of the Home Help Committee, in which they expressed their deep concern at the tremendous sums of money spent weekly in the county under that head. They stated that the amount was beyond the ability of the ratepayers to bear.
As regards the drainage scheme outlined by the Minister for Lands and Agriculture, I am sorry he did not meet the point put up by Deputy Gorey. I can give a case in point in regard to that. I know a stream—it passes through my land—which discharges, after a course of two miles, into a larger one. That stream is bordered by lands owned perhaps by a dozen farmers. It is impossible to get these men to join together to do the necessary work on that scheme, and, besides, it would require certain skilled direction in order to carry it out properly. The result is that enormous damage is being done, and that the conditions which obtain there make it impossible for a farmer to improve his land by field drainage, because he has not got the necessary outlet. As well as that, I have got in mind three or four minor rivers throughout the county in which much the same conditions exist. In one particular district the people this year have lost all their crops on account of the floods. It would be very useful if the Minister would elaborate his scheme by which joint action could be taken by groups of farmers and by which they could obtain loans. I do not say that money should be given to them by way of a gift, but what I ask is that arrangements should be made whereby farmers could borrow money and carry out these drainage schemes under skilled direction. I think that would be very useful work indeed, because the country is in a water-logged condition all over, and it would not at all interfere with the beneficent scheme that the Minister for Finance has for the drainage of the Barrow. We do not deny that that is a matter of urgency. At the same time we suggest that these minor works could be done. If they were done they would provide a sufficient outfall for the small streams in the higher localities without at all touching on the Barrow scheme.
I want to say a word of appreciation as regards the attempt of the Government to deal with the very serious situation that prevails over the entire country. Where you have well-to-do counties like Wexford, Carlow and Kildare, complaining of acute distress, what, one may ask, must the situation be in the poorer counties? As the Minister for Lands and Agriculture said, a state of chronic distress prevails in these poorer counties. I approve of the method by which the Minister for Agriculture proposes to bring relief to those districts, that is, through the Land Commission. That is a good way to do it, because there you have the machinery and the officials and you can get to work at once. That is very important, but it is a very serious limitation that you can only get to work on scheduled areas in which the Land Commission own estates and have the plans ready.
If the distress coincided with these areas, that plan, of course, would meet the situation, but unfortunately that is not the case. I admit that in nearly every case where it is proposed to carry out schemes on these estates the work is needed, but there are other districts, not far away from the estates on which these schemes are to be put into operation, in which the distress is equally acute, and in some cases I should say more acute. It happened in the case of the Minister's first scheduled scheme that was carried through during the year that many complaints were received from the areas outside. As the distress has increased since then, and as there is to be more money spent in the districts where the Land Commission have estates in their own hands what, I ask, is going to happen to the other districts? I have several of these districts in my mind. In these districts the Land Commission have no estates on their hands. These areas are in a very serious condition, and I would impress on the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who will be distributing some of this other money, to take these areas into his consideration. Otherwise, it will be very cruel to have one area relieved and another area, which is equally bad, disregarded and neglected.
In the large cities where, of course, there is a lot of distress, relief should be given, but there seems to be a difficulty in finding schemes upon which money can be reproductively spent. As I remarked here before, with regard to poor places like the congested districts, there is no such want as that. There are hundreds of instances in the congested districts where money could be reproductively spent even if there was no distress. The roads are in a bad way, and there is drainage work to be done. The making of a number of roads was commenced in the days of the old C.D.B., but they were never finished. In other cases roads which had been made were allowed to go into disrepair and the result is that to-day they can hardly be called roads at all. I would urge on the Minister for Industry and Commerce to inquire into these other areas that will not be touched by the scheme outlined by the Minister for Lands and Agriculture. There is another point I wish to make, and it is this: That if there is one thing that the people are hoping for in these congested areas it is that the land will be divided soon. I trust that while this work that the inspectors and engineers are engaged on now is very urgent work and should be done, at the same time it will not mean too much delay in the division of the land, because if there is anything that is giving the people hope in the West of Ireland, it is that the ranches will soon be divided and that they will get a chance of making a decent living. I hope that that work will be expedited because the people are beginning to lose heart over the delay. They are impatient, and no wonder. On the other hand, of course, I see the enormous difficulties of the Minister, but I would urge on him that this other work should not be neglected.
A good deal has been said during the debate to-day as to the necessity for relieving unemployment, and certain suggestions were made towards that end. I would like the Dáil to understand that there are a large number of workers who never look for outdoor relief. They would not lower themselves to that position, but would rather suffer, their families and themselves, a silent torture. They would not apply to the relieving officer for help, and they are in the unfortunate position that they cannot find employment. A great many of these workers live in urban centres. Some Deputies here to-day urged that the larger portion of this grant should be given to the rural districts. I agree that rural workers are certainly in a very lamentable position at the present time. With reference to the grant which was given last year, the Minister for Industry and Commerce told us yesterday that a sum of £50,000 out of that grant was still unexpended. What I want to know from the Minister for Finance is this: If an urban council succeeded in getting a small sum of money under last year's grant, will it get a further sum of money now under the present grants in order to enable it to complete the schemes it started last year, and in order to relieve unemployment?
The Minister for Lands and Agriculture, when he spoke a moment ago, mentioned that money would be spent in giving employment in drainage, but only in congested districts. I would like to point out that although Westmeath is not a congested district, the whole of the county is flooded, and the very homes of the people are flooded, and they have to get in and out of their houses on planks. Surely, if the Minister is going to relieve the sufferings of the people in what are known as the congested districts, he cannot refuse to give towns in Westmeath some money, so that the people may have a dry floor to stand on.
And in Longford.
Deputy Shaw reminds me of Longford. He stated he would like to see some of the money set aside for small drainage works, as the roads in Westmeath are very good. I would like to endorse the opinion of a Deputy yesterday who said that grants should be given for the upkeep of second and third-class roads. If money was spent on these roads it would relieve immediate and very acute distress. Hundreds of men could be employed on these roads. The district councils are directly responsible for the repair of these roads and a grant of money for their upkeep would be a saving to the ratepayers and the ratepayers would consequently benefit by a grant for the purpose of improving those roads. Some of the district roads have more traffic on them than the actual trunk roads. Sometime ago the Westmeath Council asked the Government to give a grant of £10,000, and said that they would raise an equivalent amount by way of loan for the purpose of relieving unemployment in the county. The Roads Department have agreed, subject to the sanction of the Minister for Finance, which it is sincerely hoped will be given, to advance £5,000 on condition that the Westmeath County Council raise another £5,000. The expenditure of that total sum of £10,000 would keep 500 men employed, as stated by Deputy Shaw in the last meeting of the Westmeath County Council, and now, if it was possible to go further and give a further grant for the purpose of the district roads it would relieve unemployment to the extent of another 500 men. We would then be in a position to have all the agricultural labourers who are not entitled to draw unemployment benefit at work, and not only would this be a saving in the district, but if the roads are properly made now, quarter of the usual expenditure would not be required for the next seven years. All classes in the community would be benefited by the grant if expended in that way.
I would like to ask the Minister for Lands and Agriculture, when he spoke of making roads through estates, who will employ the men to work on such roads? Will these roads be made by direct labour or by contract? Will he have the work done by direct labour, or will he follow the example of the Minister for Local Government some time ago when he tried to administer relief by taking half a loaf from one man and giving it to another man? Will the Minister for Lands and Agriculture act in the same way, or is he able to say at this stage whether the roads will be made by direct labour, and will the tenants who have been lucky enough to secure portion of the land have to make these roads themselves? That is one question. The next question I want to ask is: Will the money expended on the making of these roads be added to the purchase money of the tenant when he gets the land? If it is added, then it should not be called a grant at all, because it is the tenant who will have to pay it, and not the State. Yet they are told that they get this money as a grant when in reality they get no grant at all. It simply means that the State says: "Here is 5s. for you to-day, but you must pay it back to-morrow." I would like to know what is in the mind of the Minister with regard to the relief of distress. I would like to remind him that there are thousands and thousands of acres of turbary land that could be utilised in the real interests of the country, and upon which men could be set to work immediately. Will he see whether any money could be advanced for this purpose, or whether private owners of turbary land who are not in a financial position to engage labour, will be entitled to receive a grant for the purpose of draining the land, even if it were only as a loan, so as to find employment for idle men? To my mind, if the money is given for that work, every penny of it will be spent to good purpose.
If that is so, then why not employ those people on direct labour, when they will be paying back again the wages they get? All roads through the Free State should be made by direct labour. As regards drainage, the Minister for Lands and Agriculture told us he would not drain small rivers or drains which would be about one or two yards wide. Take the case of six or seven farmers who may have between them three or four hundred acres of land, with a river running through that area, three or four years wide. Will the Minister have that drained in order to have the water taken off the different farms? If he does that, it will certainly relieve distress amongst the workers in the county districts, small farmers with two, three, or five acres of land each. Such persons are in as deplorable a condition at present as the agricultural labourer.
I would like the Minister for Finance to answer a question in regard to urban councils—whether they will get a further grant in order to complete schemes, such as steam-rolling the streets, from the amount that is not expended out of the £500,000. If the Minister for Lands and Agriculture can answer me on the points I have raised, it may, perhaps, save a long debate on the matter I will introduce in reference to the administration of the Land Act.
Yesterday I heard with great satisfaction the speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. It led me to believe that a considerable sum of money would be devoted to the relief of distress in Dublin. To-day I heard the Minister for Lands and Agriculture stating that for the past twelve months they had this matter under consideration, that it is not a relief scheme by any means, that it is well thought out, that a vast portion of the money, if not all, was for congested areas, and that the only exclusion was Cavan. When I asked why Cavan was excluded, I had nothing sarcastic in my mind. I want to have that point made clear, because of the Minister's reply. Perhaps I should have asked: "Why Cavan and not Dublin?" I am satisfied there is a greater amount of distress in the City of Dublin than there is in the rest of the Free State put together. The Minister for Industry and Commerce practically admitted that yesterday. He said Dublin had by far, unfortunately, the greatest share of unemployment to be dealt with. I ask the Minister for Finance, when this money is being allocated, not to allow the greatest portion of it to be devoted to the areas mentioned by the Minister for Lands and Agriculture.
I am told by Deputies representing different constituencies that there is great distress existing through the country, and I may say that if anything could be done to help by me, as a City Deputy, I would be very glad to do it. I do not want to take anything from them in any shape or form. I am aware of the poverty that exists in the tenements in the City of Dublin. The question of fuel has been mentioned. There will be a shortage of fuel in the country districts. I know houses in the City of Dublin that from one year's end to another practically never get a bag of coal until they get one from the Mansion House Coal Fund at Christmas. That is not an exaggerated statement. Will anything be done to consider those people when money is being given for relief? I could cite cases here, but I might be accused of advertisement if I gave any special cases. I might be accused of sarcasm or self-advertisement if I cited individual cases touching upon the deplorable state of poverty that exists in some of the areas in Dublin. One point is very often forgotten.
When unemployment touches the country districts, you invariably find that from every county in Ireland numbers of persons make their way to Dublin. I know men who have walked from country districts to Dublin within the past week. They are now in Dublin. That is a point I want to bring out. When considering the Dublin unemployed and the grants you are about to make, remember that there is a large percentage of unemployed from practically all over the Free State in the City of Dublin. They are almost hungry and they are applying for relief. If you visit any of the charitable institutions, the St. Vincent de Paul, Society and the Indigent Roomkeepers' Society, or the Commissioners of the Dublin Union, you will find that within the last six months they have had many applications from people who walked from the country districts into the City because of unemployment in the rural parts. Now, unfortunately, they are drawing relief from various relief funds in the City. That should not be forgotten when you are distributing the money we are now discussing. I hope that Dublin will not be forgotten.
I regret that I am compelled to intervene again in the discussion as a result of the misleading and inaccurate statements made by Deputy Shaw. He referred to one matter which I could have also touched upon, but I thought an opportunity would be given later—I believe there will—to deal with it. That matter refers to the closing down of the Wolfhill Collieries. I have spent the greater portion of my time for the last ten or fourteen days working in conjunction with my colleagues, Deputies Egan, Wolfe, Bulfin and others, trying to save that particular colliery from being closed down. We have succeeded in doing so for the present. Deputy Shaw has alleged that the failure of this colliery, in his opinion, is due to the attitude of the Labour Party.
He holds us responsible for whatever has happened to the working of the colliery. Deputy Shaw, I am sure, would not deny that the Board of Management of this colliery is controlled, or is supposed to be controlled by a body of racing men, well-known gentlemen in the world of sport in this country. Would the Deputy produce to the House the records or minutes of board meetings in connection with the management of the colliery? I am sure if he only would, he could produce documents showing the number of times those people have attended meetings of the board. That is by the way. I mention it, however, merely to point out that there is some fault on the part of the people who placed themselves on the board of management of that company, and who refused on most occasions to attend meetings of the board that were summoned in the ordinary way. The colliery closed down on last Saturday week and it was due to the fact that the Land Bank, acting on the instructions of the Minister for Finance, refused——
There was no instruction from the Minister for Finance; but there was a statement that the Government would not cover any losses that might be incurred.
I accept that in order to get along. I will be as brief as I possibly can. The Land Bank are the receivers for the debenture shareholders, and they have failed to get the board of management to come together to pass the necessary winding-up resolution which would enable the business to go into liquidation, and which might enable other people, probably more interested in the working of Irish collieries, to take it up and make a better attempt to work it than the people who have been responsible for its bad management in the past.
There was a strike in this colliery about four months ago. It might be information for Deputy Good, Deputy Hewat and other business men, or alleged business men, to know that the cause of the strike was due to a demand on behalf of the mine workers for the bringing in of a system of payment by results. Deputy Good, Deputy Hewat, and other business representatives in this House and also the Chambers of Commerce that claim to represent the real business element in this country, are continually demanding that payment should be by piecework or by the system of payment by results. It is a peculiar coincidence that this was the cause of the strike at Wolfhill. The Board of Management, composed of this body of business men, would not allow the men to work on the payment by result system. Deputy Shaw did not put that information before the House.
That was only one of the strikes, one of the many.
I do not want to be rising to a point of order unduly, but is this matter in order?
Deputy Shaw referred to this matter, and it is only fair that Deputy Davin would be allowed to reply to it. At the same time, the question of strikes should not come in.
I will be very brief. The statement that has been made by Deputy Shaw should be corrected when it is incorrect. I am sure Deputy Shaw will be interested to learn that a settlement has been arrived at which makes provision for the colliery to be taken over and worked by the men, no payment to be given to the men except what they can receive as a result of their own efforts in regard to the coal they are able to produce. That is a new system of management.
That new method of working the colliery is an experiment only until the end of the present year. To prove that there is something like patriotism in the minds of the miners who are now undertaking to work the colliery under those conditions, they have actually forfeited their legal right to the unemployment insurance benefit during the experimental period, thereby saving the State expenditure to the extent of £250 a week. Deputy Shaw referred to the Bolshevic attitude of the men towards the works and the destruction they have done. He said that what they did prevented the successful working of the colliery.
On a point of explanation, I did not say any such thing.
I think this matter should be ended now.
I put it to you, sir, that it is not right to allow a wrong statement to be made in the Dáil without giving the Deputy charged an opportunity of correcting it.
Deputy Shaw definitely said that the party represented by Deputy Davin was responsible for the failure of this colliery.
I have allowed Deputy Davin to answer that charge.
Perhaps Deputy Shaw would take occasion to tell us, if he approves of what was done there lately by the authorities. Gelignite and explosives were taken from the collieries last week by an individual and the Peace Commissioner appointed by the party that Deputy Shaw supports allowed that individual out on bail. He is still going round the country. Is that what Deputy Shaw stands for?
Who smashed the machinery?
Men who learned what to do from the I.R.A.
They got an encouragement to take direct action from the party that Deputy Shaw supports. I only want to correct a mis-statement and to express a hope that the Minister for Finance, who has met those concerned in keeping on these collieries and who is interested in keeping on these collieries will, as far as he can, help in this matter. I would express the hope also that Deputy Shaw will persuade his fellow-directors to respond to the call made by the National Land Bank to attend a meeting which they, as directors must attend in order to pass the necessary winding-up resolution to enable others, even outsiders, if we cannot get people in this country to take over this colliery to work it in the interests of the people of the country.
I would like to point out to the Minister for Finance, that a scheme was just about to start about 10 years ago for the drainage of the Awbeg River from Charleville running on towards Buttevant. In that particular district there are thousands of acres of land under water at the present moment. Even stacks of hay are under water and cannot be removed. I think that particular place should be included in the list of the areas to be drained under this grant that we are now about to pass.
I would like to ask the responsible Minister just one question. What I am going to say is more or less for want of knowledge or information of what was said by the Minister in the course of the evening. I was not here when the responsible Ministers were making their statements. I understand, however, that certain grants are to be given to congested districts. Now, there are certain land-holders on the banks of the Shannon and Fergus, and these lands were banked up in order to keep out flooding. Subsequently these banks were allowed to get into a state of serious disrepair, and when the tenants purchased their land under the Land Act they found these banks in a bad state of disrepair, with the result that there are hundreds of acres flooded. Now, the Minister for Lands and Agriculture knows particularly well that it is entirely impossible for those people to make up these banks again, and keep out all these floods. I would like to know if any arrangement has been made whereby these people will get any relief for the making of these banks, or whether any scheme would be put into operation to enable these banks to be made. I would remind the Dáil that the Land Commission are drawing annuities from lands that are covered half the year with water. That is not a commendable state of affairs. I am speaking now with the disadvantage of not knowing what the Minister said earlier in the debate. However, I take it it is no harm to bring this matter again to the notice of the Minister for Lands and Agriculture, in the hope that he will consider that point of view in preparing a scheme.
I wish to add to the claim put forward a while ago by Deputy Daly in connection with the great number of unemployed in Fermoy and Kilworth and other districts. In these districts they have a great claim on the Free State Government, owing particularly to the British troops having left the country. While they were there they had always constant employment from the British Government in these big military centres of Kilworth Camp, Moorpark, and Fermoy. In the Moorpark areas there is up to 1,000 acres of arable land. Now that the beet industry has been so much spoken about, and as that industry is one that is likely to bring the country something needed in the way of employment, and something also in the way of financing farmers who would need some stimulus in the way of agricultural industry, I would say there are lots of small farmers in the Fermoy district who would be only too glad to rent portion of that land at a good fee per acre. Now, in that way, if they got that land, a great number of the unemployed in the district would get work in the district.
I do not agree with the manner in which the roads in our districts are worked. I can see at the present moment that stones are being carted from the quarries out into the roads. These stones should have been broken long ago. Now it is unreasonable to ask any man to sit on a heap of stones in this inclement weather. It is barbarous. That is work that should have been done long ago when the weather was favourable. I think if we look a little more carefully into the management of affairs and look a little more ahead, things will, in a short time, be put into a better state and there will be less unemployment and more prosperity for all.
I wish to call the attention of the Minister for Finance to the conditions down in Mayo. At the present time steam-rolling operations are being carried on there. Men working at these steam-rolling operations do not work more than three days in the week. There are so many unemployed that that is all the men are able to get. They are paying them at present a wage of £1 14s. a week. During the past month a small drainage scheme was started, and over 100 men applied for work there. They could only take on 12 men. There are over 5,000 men unemployed in Mayo, and if they even got £1 4s. a week they would be glad to take it.
During the past twelve years several estates have been taken over by the Land Commission, and no work has been done on these estates for want of capital. If the Land Commission wants to fence, stripe and divide these lands it will mean considerable employment in these areas. If they do not go on with this work it will mean more acute distress and the economic position there will become more acute. During the past month unemployment relief in Mayo has been almost doubled. I do not wish to take up any more of the time of the Dáil on this matter, but I would urge on the Minister to put the work I indicate in the matter of these estates in hand at once.
A good number of the points raised, both before and after the Minister for Lands and Agriculture spoke, were answered by him. In the ordinary way, the Minister for Education is not one of the Ministers who has been, or who would be, consulted in connection with the distribution of this grant. However, as a matter of fact, I have spoken to him within the last few days in reference to the expenditure on school buildings and pointed out that wherever there was expenditure necessary it could be put in hands and it would give needed employment.
There is, of course, a difficulty in regard to new school buildings. In many districts, and particularly in Dublin here, new school buildings are urgently needed and will be more needed if compulsory attendance should be passed. There is the difficulty that heretofore one-third of the cost had to be put up by the managers of the schools. Whether it is wise to depart from that is another question. The question of whether we ought to spend some of this money on educational buildings is under examination at the present time, and a decision has not been taken. The Owenmore and the River Awbeg are rivers that are now being considered by the Board of Works with a view to having work upon them in the coming summer. Whether it will actually be possible or not I could not say at the present time. In all these schemes there are legal difficulties. But a considerable amount of work will be done in restoring existing drainage schemes, and there are a number of drainage schemes which have lapsed in such a way, and into such a state of disrepair that they will have to be remade, with this difference, that were rock had to be removed in the first instance, only mud will have to be removed now. A considerable number of new drainage schemes will be undertaken immediately, weather permitting. They will involve new works or the restoration of existing works which have been allowed to fall into disrepair.
The difficulty suggested by Deputy Davin that exists where local authorities will not move is not very easy of solution. Matters that are left in the charge of local authorities can hardly very well be done over their heads, and I know that there is a tendency in some cases for local authorities, even if they are not wilfully dilatory, to be exceedingly slow in going ahead. There is the difficulty sometimes of getting a meeting and all that. I do not say that in every case that can be got over. In some cases I think it can hardly be got over, but we are exploring the question of doing work which might be done by the local authority or by some sort of local representative committee; we are exploring the question of having this type of local works entrusted to a suitable local committee, having an expenditure which would be approved and certified, so that none of the money can go astray. I have only examined one scheme, where it was proposed that the work should be done by a local committee rather than a local authority, and on the examination which I gave it, I see no reason why it should not go ahead.
It was contended that if the work were to be left to a local authority it would be impossible to have anything done for four or five months, or may be more, whereas the committee could possibly take it up within two or three weeks. We will be prepared to consider every possible means of doing useful and necessary work in the most expeditious way where the unemployment situation is acute. In places where the problem is not very acute it would be more difficult to justify going past the local authority, or setting up extraordinary machinery. On a matter that is perhaps hardly seriously within the scope of this Estimate, that is the question of favouring districts, I might say that it has been suggested to me that if Deputy Davin or any other Deputy believes that there is a way of having favouritism shown to a particular district that he could help this particular area by creating a vacancy. Perhaps he does not believe there is much in that——
Deputy Esmonde has not resigned.
Will the Minister guarantee in that case to move for an election immediately the resignation is created?
It is not suggested that that has anything to do with the matter.
That would obviously defeat the whole scheme.
It would depend on who was returned.
I do not think I need say anything in reply to Deputy Doyle. It has already been pointed out that the major part of the money is to be spent in the rural districts. A very substantial amount of the first grant was spent through the Land Commission in the rural districts, almost half of the entire grant, and a good deal more than half of the sum that is now asked will be spent in the rural districts. At the same time, dealing with the point raised by Deputy Byrne, I may say that we are not neglecting Dublin or other urban centres. Out of the first £250,000 a sum of £35,000 was allotted for expenditure in Dublin. There has actually been received from the Dublin Commissioners an application for £50,000 more. I do not say that all that will be given them, but in any case all the proposals put up from the city will be considered sympathetically. It should be remembered, however, that it is the urban districts that will get most, almost all, of the £385,000 which is to be expended on unemployment benefit. You must realise when we are allocating this particular grant that the rural districts do not get anything corresponding to that.
The difficulty raised by Deputy Gorey and Deputy Conlan regarding these small streams is not one we could really deal with at present. They are not so small, and the farmers are not so few that they cannot in all reason be expected somehow or other to reach an agreement amongst themselves, as suggested by the Minister for Agriculture. Otherwise they would require to constitute a local drainage district, with a legal right to do the work, and to exact payment from all the people benefited, and that is not a thing we can do in relation to unemployment. That would take a considerable amount of time. It would relieve the drainage problem for future years. But so far as the members of one small group of farmers are concerned, they ought to agree amongst themselves and do the work, and if it is necessary that they should drain there is no reason why they should not all make their application together for a drainage loan to the Board of Works, and facilities could be given for having these loans considered together, and all granted. Deputy Lyons asked whether the work to be done by the Land Commission will be done by direct labour. It will be done by direct labour, and the wages paid will be the wages current in the district. I will also say in regard to his remarks that this expenditure will in some part be returned to the Exchequer. I should say that some 40 per cent. of this money expended by the Land Commission will ultimately be recovered by the Land Commission from the tenants of the holdings by way of a charge on them.
I do not want to talk about particular counties, but Deputy Nally has referred to the special distress in Co. Mayo. Co. Mayo is one of the counties where the Land Commission has a considerable number of estates, and where they could do a good deal of work. They have all these estates to which Deputy Nally has referred. I do not want to talk about the final allocation of the money, which has not been agreed on, but if the proposals at present before the Ministry of Finance are agreed to actually as they stand it would mean a very large proportion of the money going to that county. The allocation of the money is to a large extent determined by the estates now in the hands of the Land Commission.
As the Minister for Agriculture has said, this matter has been under discussion in one form or another between the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Finance for a very long time. The previous schedules have been sanctioned, amounting, as I said, to £74,000. They were selections from proposals put up to me a considerable time ago. This expenditure is really very carefully considered, and I think that it is not of a type that could be cavilled at. There will remain after the Land Commission expenditure is carried out, some £60,000 or £65,000 of the old grant. There will remain £60,000, or perhaps £70,000, of this new sum, so that there is a fair margin that may be given for works in other districts, that is, either rural works or urban works, and any proposals that come forward from any authority, or even very good proposals put forward by responsible people, will be carefully considered. I do not say we will so readily consider the proposals merely put forward by a committee, but we are prepared to consider them if distress is great in a district and if a good scheme can be put forward. The Government realises the need for meeting distress and is prepared to do everything that it can to meet it, but there is no use in either asking the Dáil for money that cannot be expended or in expending money on works that are not good works. It would be better to give merely poor relief than make a pretence of doing works if the works are not in themselves good. We have to try to see that there is actual value given for the money and that there is utility in the work that is done.
Would the Minister say what is his intention with regard to second and third class roads? Would not expenditure on them be useful expenditure, and would it not be of benefit to the people in these localities if money were given for making or repairing these roads?
I asked the Minister a question—he has probably forgotten to answer it—whether it is obligatory on local authorities to put up a certain amount in order to qualify for a grant?
To some extent we have tried to get them to do that for various reasons. One of these reasons, which is relevant to the issue in this case, was that more money could be expended. If we were putting up, say, £5,000, the grant might be stretched by another £5,000 from the local authority, but we have not insisted in all cases, and we will not insist on the local authority putting up money. With reference to Deputy Lyons's point, it is a question as to what extent money could be diverted from the trunk roads. There is a certain small amount which I think can be used for other important roads than trunk roads. It may be possible that some necessary and useful works can be done out of the Road Fund on roads that are not trunk roads. We have already given a certain amount of money for road making out of the unemployment grants. We have allocated—I could not state the amount expended out of the first £250,000—£14,800 for road grants. It is a matter of the schemes being put up and they will be carefully and sympathetically considered.
With regard to the loans for drainage of land, I would like to ask the Minister if he would give the matter further consideration. I do not think the plan put forward is feasible. Am I entitled to speak at this stage?
You are not entitled to speak now but you may ask a question of the Minister.
I will try to put it in the form of a question. The point is that four or five farmers may have their land adjoining and if they are to drain their land effectively they will have to combine to do it. If there is another man with land in the vicinity who objects he will probably block up the whole scheme.
On a point of order, was not that question answered by the Minister?
I answered it. You may read it in the Official Report. It is not absolutely necessary to answer a question that has been answered already when a Deputy takes it up afresh.
I merely want to ask the Minister to give the point I have raised consideration. I heard your answer.
In that case legal measures are necessary. If you cannot get agreement, compulsion is necessary. Compulsion requires legislation and that will not meet the situation for the relief of unemployment.
Vote put and agreed to.
I do not propose to take the other two estimates to-day. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has asked me to allow him to come in with Item No. 1 on the Orders of the Day.