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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 12 Dec 1924

Vol. 9 No. 26

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES. - VOTE 47—LAND COMMISSION.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £200,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1925, i gcóir Tuarastala agus Costaisí Oifig Choimisiún Talmhan na hEireann (44 and 45 Vict. c. 49, s. 46, and c. 71, s. 4; 48 and 49 Vict. c. 73, ss. 17, 18 and 20; 53 and 54 Vict. c. 49, s. 2; 54 and 55 Vict. c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38 and c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; an tAcht Dlí Talmhan (Coimisiún), 1923, agus an tAcht Talmhan, 1923).

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £200,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for the salaries and expenses of the office of the Irish Land Commission (44 and 45 Vict. c. 49, s. 46, c. 71, s. 4; 48 and 49 Vict. c. 73, ss. 17, 18 and 20; 53 and 54 Vict. c. 49, s. 2; 54 and 55 Vict. c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38 and c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; the Land Law (Commission) Act, 1923, and the Land Act, 1923).

While this Vote is under consideration, I would like to draw the attention of the Minister for Lands and Agriculture to the indiscriminate processes which have been issued for the alleged non-payment of annuities in the County Donegal. A large number of these processes were issued early in October, and some others, I think, were not served until November or the beginning of December. I allege with a considerable amount of authority that these processes have been issued for rents or annuities already paid. I brought this matter to the notice of the Dáil some months ago, and a promise was made then that it would be investigated and looked into; but, so far as I am aware, no investigation has been made, and the matter was not looked into. I gave several glaring and concrete cases to the Minister where two processes were issued for the one amount. I gave other cases where processes were issued for amounts partially paid. There seems to be a system in the Land Commission, and among Land Commission officials, whereby when receivable orders are sent up with money for payment of annuities these receivable orders are retained for six, and in some cases twelve months. I gave cases that I have here now from Donegal. I gave the case of two Dohertys, Daniel and James, and in these cases the money, amounting to £3 15s. 2d., was sent forward from Mallin Post Office on the 23rd October, 1923. The receivable order accompanied it, and was received by the Land Commission, but was never returned. Now, these two men are processed before the Circuit Court at Lifford.

Take a note of the names of the places.

This a clear matter of injustice, and though some Deputies may laugh I can assure them that these tenants are respectable landowners, and I think they have no right to be sneered at or laughed at by a Labour leader. A man named William Campbell, "Carndoagh," Carndonagh, was processed for £9, one half-year's annuity, on the 12th December, 1923. He received no receivable order since. I would like to know from the Minister is it for the purpose of manufacturing cases for solicitors that all these processes are issued. Some very serious allegations of this kind are made. These processes are issued for the Circuit Court in Donegal. They could be issued to be heard before the District Court. The District Justice has power to hear cases up to £10. These people could be cited before a District Justice, and they could state their own case without having to employ any solicitor, and the District Justice could investigate and decide the matter without extra expense to these people. Not very long ago several processes were brought up before District Justice Goff at Carrick-macross District Court at the instance of the Land Commission, and the cases were dismissed.

Would the Deputy speak a little more slowly.

I am sorry, but am I to take it that the Minister for Justice interprets what I said to mean that the District Justice did not dismiss those processes?

No, but I did not know what did happen.

I was saying that I read in the "Independent" some time ago that processes were brought by the Land Commission against annuitants before District Justice Goff, at Carrick-macross, in the County of Monaghan. These processes were investigated by the District Justice and dismissed, because the people were able to prove that they had already paid the amounts that they were processed for. Is there any ambiguity about that? The same thing has occurred now in Donegal. Several of these people have been processed for non-payment in lieu of rent and Land Commission annuities, and I allege, from statements that these people made to me, and from proofs with which they have furnished me, that part of the money, in the case of some of these people and the whole of the amount in some other cases, has been already paid to the Land Commission. The land collection department of the Land Commission send down a list of defaulters from their head office in Dublin to the State Solicitor in Donegal, in the month of August or September, as the case may be.

In the meantime the annuitants or owners in Donegal remitted, because the banks refused to accept payment after the usual fourteen days, and these people send the Receivable Orders for these amounts. The Land Commission never communicates with the State Solicitor in Donegal, and he simply takes up the list and proceeds to recover from the people. I will give an instance that came under my own notice a fortnight ago. The money was remitted in this case on the 17th November, from Carndonagh, in the shape of a bank draft in a registered letter to the Land Commission amounting to £1 16s. 3d. On the following 22nd the Land Commission sent on a registered letter enclosing a process. I am pleased to see the Vice-President is enjoying this revelation. This matter is a very serious matter for these unfortunate people, a very large number of whom are unable to pay law costs. A very large number of these people got their last year's seed from the County Council, and there is a very large number that will have no potatoes or oats this year at all. That is not a matter for either enjoyment or laughter.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE at this stage resumed the Chair.

Just for information, is the potato crop in Donegal very bad?

In certain portions of it. In the portions nearer to the mountains there are no potatoes. In the better lands there are potatoes.

Does the land ever produce a good crop?

Certain portions of it. The Land Commission is costing the country as much as £600,000; it is a great State Department, but the business methods that they have in connection with the collection of annuities would disgrace a country book-maker, or a country auctioneer's office. I call upon the Minister to appoint a committee of three and not exceeding five Deputies, to inquire into the method of collection of annuities and payments in lieu of rent, because there is grave dissatisfaction at the present time in the County Donegal, and some other counties too, if the Deputies had the courage to get up and expose it. But it has been left to me to do that. I do not intend to occupy the time of the Dáil at any great length. Some Ministers may think I have done it a bit too forcibly. However, I have put the facts before them. I will be able to prove several cases I have already stated and I do not think the Minister himself should fear the appointment of this committee, or have the least dread of appointing a committee to endeavour if it can be possible to substitute a better method of collection, whereby the question of the issue of these processes for Land Commission annuities and the question of payment of costs by unfortunate people who are not able to pay them will be obviated.

I cannot agree to this Vote as placed before us. The fact is that we are getting no positive results from the money that is being expended. Large sums of money have been voted to the Land Commission from time to time simply and solely for the purpose of paying salaries to officials. I do not agree that these Votes should, at all times, be acceded to, as we are not getting a return from these officials for the money expended. We must be shown some results if we are called upon at various periods to vote money for the payment of salaries for such officials.

There is nothing about salaries in this Vote.

It does not say what it is for.

The Vote states what it is for. It is not for salaries.

This Vote should not be agreed to, except we get some statement from the Minister that the money will be devoted to some useful and constructive purpose.

Has the Deputy got a copy of the Vote?

I have. I say that we should not vote money to the Land Commission indiscriminately, as we have got no adequate return for the money we have already voted. The only return we have got is a reply to a letter. Until the Minister is prepared to tell us we are going to get something substantial as a result of voting this sum, I am not prepared to agree that the money should be granted. Therefore, I oppose the Vote until he makes such a declaration.

I am in favour of this Vote. If the Deputy read the Vote he would find that the money is to facilitate a very large number of tenants who are not able to meet their payments, and that it will be repaid to the Exchequer as soon as it is collected from the tenants. There is a very large number of unpurchased tenants in the Saorstát who are not in a position to pay 2½ years' arrears of rent. There is no use in taking these people to court and getting decrees against them.

This is not for arrears.

This is not for compounded arrears.

Perhaps it would assist the Dáil if the Minister would explain what it is for.

The total collection of payment in lieu of rent for a year is about £900,000. There is £125,000 wanted at present to make up arrears in that collection. There are arrears at present of about £140,000 in the collection of payment in lieu of rent, out of a total collection of about £900,000. There is another gale about to mature and in two or three months, probably, the arrears would have increased. It is for that reason that £200,000 is asked for. Why is there such a sum in arrear? It is because the Land Commission do give a certain amount of time to deserving tenants before pressing for payment. Under the Act of Parliament, this money has to be found by the Dáil if not paid by the tenant purchasers, and people who owe payment in lieu of rent. The Land Commission could issue processes against defaulters immediately after the gale-day and probably decrease this amount. They do, however, give time in genuine cases and this is the result. The amount in arrear is very small compared with the total collection.

I am thankful to the Minister for his information, and I say that this money is wanted for a very useful purpose.

I should make it clear that the amount must be collected by the Land Commission.

I understand that. I want some information as to the methods by which outstanding amounts will be collected. The Minister has said that the Land Commission is empowered to process any tenant who has not paid on the day after the gale day. I do not think such methods should be adopted by the Minister. We have had too many sad experiences of tenants being taken to court and decrees got against them, and of evictions in this country. I sincerely hope the Land Commission, are not going to adopt those methods and send sheriffs to seize the property of the unfortunate tenants. I hope they will facilitate the tenants by giving them time to pay. I do not know whether I would be in order in replying to some statements made by Deputies in reference to the Motion I had down on the Order Paper.

It has been decided before that the only question that can be discussed on a Supplementary Estimate is the purpose for which the estimate is submitted. Questions arising out of the main Vote do not arise again on this Supplementary Estimate, which is to make up deficiencies in respect of payment in lieu of rent under Section 20 of the Land Act.

I presume I would be in order on this Vote in raising a question as to whether a tenant who is liable to pay rent is actually owner of the land he is asked to pay for?

I am not skilled in the Land Act, but I do not think so.

The tenant is not the owner in fee.

Deputy O'Connell to-day made reference to the statement made by me that land was not the private property of anybody. There is no individual in this country who can claim that he is the rightful owner of any portion of the country. The fact that he may be living on an estate and paying rent for that estate does not give him ownership of the land.

Is the Deputy satisfied now?

No, sir.

Well, I am satisfied that the Deputy is out of order.

Then, I will not pursue that point. I did not stand up for the purpose of delaying the House. I want to see this Vote going through. I think the Minister for Lands and Agriculture said that any question could be raised on this Estimate. That is why I raised the question. I will find a more opportune time for dealing with the matter.

It may be some consolation to you to know that that statement was wrong.

I would like to ask if the Minister would give more detailed consideration to the position of some of the tenants that he refers to — tenants who, owing to the bad weather and other causes, have no fuel. What facilities is he prepared to grant them further than getting up here and staling that the rent has got to be paid? Will he make a statement as to how long he will allow these people?

What the Deputy would like me to say is that the rent has not to be paid. I am not saying that. With regard to Deputy White's point, it is quite possible and, in fact, probable that processes will be served on the wrong persons in a case like this, where there is such a big collection and because of the general confusion of the times. It would be a miracle if that did not happen. What is happening in most cases is something like this: the tenant-purchaser has not paid his annuity. His name is sent down to the State Solicitor. The State Solicitor writes to the tenant once or twice. The tenant does not answer. Then the State Solicitor sends out the process. The process is served. The next thing that happens is that the tenant sends up the amount of the process, without any costs, to the Land Commission. That, of course, could not go on. A collection could not be carried out on those lines. A process has been issued and served——

Wrongly. I gave instances.

I agree that there are instances where processes have been wrongly served. Mistakes have been made. What usually happens in the that come before me——

I have given instances where processes have been served for amounts that have been sent to the Land Commission. I am prepared to prove those cases.

A defaulting purchaser's name is sent down to the State Solicitor. He writes to the tenant. The tenant does not reply. Then, feeling that it is dangerous to delay longer, he sends the amount to the Land Commission. Next day a process is issued by the State Solicitor, who knows nothing about the payment. That happens quite often. The Deputy must know that as well as I do. It happens, too, that after receiving the process, the tenant sends the amount to the Solicitor without costs. In these cases, the State Solicitors must get their costs. You cannot get a solicitor to work for nothing. He is as well entitled lobe paid as a doctor or——

A farmer.

You have not got your Port and Docks Bill through yet.

Is it the State that is to pay these costs? I would like to assure the House that a considerable amount of confusion is caused at the present time in the collection of annuities and payment in lieu of rent, on account of the habit that tenant purchasers have got into of not paying on the gale day, when they should pay, if they are able to pay. They wait for a demand, or two demands from the solicitor, and then they ignore them. The process arrives. After three or four days, they come to the conclusion that it is not safe to delay any longer, and they send along the money to the Land Commission. The Land Commission could not do business on those lines. The Land Commission have no Department to receive the money. They would have to set up a sub-Department for the purpose of receiving annuities in that way.

There is a regular way of paying annuities. They should be paid on receivable order through the local bank. The amounts would be received then in the usual way by the Land Commission. There would be no confusion, and the matter would be dealt with in the ordinary way. When a large cumber of tenants adopt a different attitude, the whole procedure is changed and things are bound to get into confusion. I will not say that tenants are going to avoid paying costs where processes have been issued by the State Solicitor and the money is afterwards sent to the Land Commission. The Land Commission has to notify the State Solicitor of the receipt of that amount. The correct thing to do, for book-keeping purposes, would be to send it back to the State Solicitor. Where you give the collection of a debt to a solicitor, you must leave the collection to him and deal with the matter in that way. You cannot very well accept payment of a debt in that way and make no arrangements about the payment of the solicitor's costs. That is what is happening in about 75 per cent. of eases.

I admit that with such very large arrears, there will be mistakes made. There will be a certain amount of confusion but, on the whole, that is unavoidable. It is an extraordinary coincidence that the people who complain that they do not get back the receivable ordprs are the same people who have been making that complaint for the last ten years. The Land Commission have their names. The people who arc in arrear with their annuities and who are complaining now that they do not pet the receivable orders are, to a very large extent, the people who always had been in arrear with their annuities and whose cases had to be dealt with through the solicitor. That is, perhaps, a little more than a coincidence, but it is a fact. I am a little bit suspicious about those cases in which people do not receive their receivable orders. There are cases in which mistakes were made. I have investigated them. The mistakes were made either by the State Solicitors, or through clerical errors in the Land Commission. That is bound to occur.

I sent my own receivable orders on the 18th July last for the May instalment, and I did not get them back until the 24th August.

I think that was extremely quick. I would ask the Deputy to remember that what he should have done to conform with the usual practice was to go into a bank and lodge the receivable order and the money in the btok. It would come then up through the proper channel to the Land Commission.

That is the condition of affairs in the Land Commission, where they have to collect payments in lieu of rent, annuities, and all the rest of it, which amount to about £4,000,000. They have a regular procedure there. Now, all the tenants are endeavouring to set that regular procedure at sixes and sevens. You have a proportion paying through the bank to the Land Commission, sometimes with and sometime without receivable orders. You have others sending money to the Land Commission directly, with or without receivable orders. Then you have some sending moneys through solicitors, some with and some without receivable orders. There is an utter absence of regular payment, and there is general confusion over the arrears question.

There is the Deputy's own case, for instance. Instead of paying his annuity into the bank in the ordinary way, and seeing that it went to the Land Commission, he sent up the receivable order to the Land Commission. That must be dealt with as a special case, and then the receivable order must be returned. The money must be put to a special account in order to keep the accounts properly. It has to be transferred to the right account and so forth. We hear complaints about extra staff, and all the rest of it. Let me say that 20 per cent. of the time of the Land Commission staff is occupied in doing work like that that they should not be doing, and that they need not be doing if there was any responsibility and reasonableness and rational outlook amongst the rank and file of the tenants. I do admit to th Deputy that there have been mistakes made, but let those mistakes be put up.

I will make a suggestion. Extend the period for receiving the money in the bank from fourteen to twenty-one days. That will give them an extra week.

Mr. HOGAN

Does not the Deputy know that such an extension would not be worth a straw? A man who can pay within twenty-one days can pay within fourteen days. It will not be the six days that will make the difference.

Might we come back now to the Supplementary Estimate? I take it the explanation of the Minister is this: £200,000 is a sum that is recoverable, and the form in which it is put in here increases the amount of the grant to the Irish Land Commission from £596,604 to £796,604. That will reflect the money that will be recovered. It is really providing for something in the form of a loan.

Mr. HOGAN

It is providing something for payment in lieu of rent. something corresponding to the Guarantee Fund for annuities.

Vote put and agreed to.
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