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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 19 Dec 1924

Vol. 9 No. 27

THE SHANNON POWER SCHEME. - STATEMENT BY THE MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE.

I feel that at the outset I should make a preliminary apology to you, sir, and to the Dáil for certain matters to which I shall have afterwards to refer in more detail— first of all for the fact that the scheme, the Siemens-Schuckert scheme for the development of the Shannon is presented in such detail that it would be impossible for me to give any real account of the development of that scheme to-night, and while I have an embarrassment of material in that respect I have further to excuse myself to the Dáil for not having a sufficiency of material in the other respects. The experts' report has been concluded, but at this moment I have not in my hands the complete report actually as signed by them, and being their last word on the scheme. That want arises from this fact that the report was first of all drawn up in German and was signed by them in that language, that the translation of it had to be undertaken, and the English again referred to for their concurrence, that the report had in no way changed in the translation, and all that I intend to give here to-night is a certain statement as to some of the larger details in connection with this scheme as presented by Messrs. Siemens-Schuckert and certain chapters of the experts' report, which chapters are, however, sufficient to enable a decision to be taken on the further development of the scheme.

A certain amount of history is necessary to get this whole matter into proper perspective. I do not suppose that I need refer in detail to the White Paper presented to this House on the 7th March last, which White Paper formed the basis of the contract entered into between the Government and certain agents acting on behalf of the firm of Siemens-Schuckert. I would like to call attention to-day to one or two points. The paper is the basis of a very definite and very comprehensive contract, and as far as I am in the position in which I am in to-night in giving to the House even a portion of the experts' report, it means further that I am in this position: That the contract has been fulfilled by the parties to it up to a certain point, and that the further steps have to be considered immediately by the Government and their view on the further steps to be put before this House.

The White Paper set out in some detail certain considerations present to the mind of the Government on entering into this matter and it led simply to this, to put it in general terms, that the firm had to work out a detailed scheme for the development of electrical power from the Shannon and for its distribution over the Irish Free State to sub-distribution points in various cities and towns, that there was, with that, to be a binding estimate as to cost and to report on all economic details of the proposal, including the price at which power could be delivered to the towns and cities where it is to be utilised. Further there was to be an examination not merely of the existing market for power, but a report on the future possibilities industrially and otherwise that cheap power would promote. That scheme when presented in its very full details was then to be treated in this way. After various investigations had been carried out by the various branches of the Siemens-Schuckert concern, engineers were to be sent to the Shannon to carry out further investigations on the spot. Certain services of Government engineers in this country were to be lent for that purpose and finally the report, when prepared, was to be submitted to whatever expert the Government might select and to be judged from the techical and economic points of view. There was a further proviso that if the scheme in its first presentation was not acceptable to the experts, it was allowed that modifications should be suggested by the firm and these modifications would then become portion of the first scheme or would replace portions of the original scheme and that the scheme as modified would be submitted for final examination to the experts. That is the point that we have now reached. Certain modifications have been proposed, not in the scheme in any of its fundamental aspects, as at first suggested, but in certain rather minor points of detail. These modifications have been accepted and the scheme, as modified, has been submitted to the experts with the result that I shall presently come to. This paper, therefore, formed the basis of the contract and my statement to the Dáil to-night is that the contract has reached a certain stage and that certain other steps must necessarily follow from it.

Again I must go back on the history of this White Paper. It was presented to this House on the 7th March of this year. At that time it was known that certain Private Bills were in contemplation dealing with the development of the River Liffey. This Paper which formed the basis of the Government contract was issued deliberately to the Dáil so that the terms of the contract with the German firm might be known to those who were engaged in promoting Bills for the development of the Liffey. It is to be noted here that the deposits required under Private Bill procedure were not lodged in the case of the two companies who had to make deposits in connection with their Private Bills until a date after the presentation of the White Paper.

Will the Minister excuse me if I ask him what he means by the contract in this matter? Is it the contract to pay £10,000 or is it a contract to carry anything forward to a certain stage? It is not contracting the State. It is only contracting the Government to pay £10,000.

It is contracting the Government with the Siemens-Schuckert people, that in certain eventualities the Government would proceed with a certain scheme as detailed in the White Paper, the £10,000 being only one point of that contract.

All subject to Private Bill legislation?

The details of this to be worked out either by Private Bill legislation, Hybrid Bill legislation, or Public Bills as would be required. It will be subject to the ordinary Parliamentary procedure, whatever type of parliamentary procedure will afterwards be found to be applicable in carrying out that contract.

I want to make it clear that it is not a contract binding on the State for this scheme to be carried through; it is a contract to bring it to the stage of legislation?

It is an agreement for a contract, rather than a binding contract in the strict legal sense. It shows the terms on which the Government were prepared to enter into a contract with a German firm to proceed. That is on page 3 of the White Paper.

It is not page 4, the last three lines?

Pages 3 and 4. Page 4 will, of course, come in.

Perhaps the Minister will use the word "agreement," rather than "contract."

If it pleases the Deputy, certainly. I allude to the point about Private Bill procedure and to the date of these deposits, because there appears to have been a certain conflict, a conflict which, I am told, critics say could have been avoided if proper steps had been taken, and I want to point out that there was a further stage at which this White Paper and the Private Bill promoters came somewhat into contact. Before the promoters of Bills before the Private Bill Committee had proceeded to that Committee I asked all these promoters to meet me, and when they did consent to meet me I put before them a proposition much on these lines; that they should refrain from procedure before the Private Bills Committee until such time as the experts appointed for the Shannon had made their report ——

Would the Minister mind if I interrupted him at this point? I was present at that conference, and so far as he has gone at the present moment my recollection of the conference, and the minute adopted by certain persons with whom I was present, is strongly in contrast with the interpretation that he has given.

If the Deputy contradicts me I will have to go into points of detail. That conference was called—that fact is beyond doubt. At the conference I put it to the promoters of the Private Bills that they should not proceed before the Private Bills Committee then——!

No, the Minister asked the persons who were promoting Private Bills, the three of which parties were present before him then, for full detailed information regarding their Private Bills in order that they might be contrasted with the Shannon proposal. He did not mention that they should not be proceeded with before the Private Bills Committee

Does the Deputy then admit, or deny, that a letter written to me later outlining what the promoters proposed doing, and written as a result of the conference, contained this statement:—That they could not see their way to take any step which would prevent the Committee appointed by the Oireachtas from proceeding with its work?

The letter that was sent, I believe by more than one party but certainly by the one party with which I was concerned, was that any information the Minister sought the Minister could have without further question, but without prejudice to the rights of the Private Bills Committee.

I have asked the Deputy a definite question, and he has answered one which I did not put. Does the Deputy hold that the letter sent me as a result of that conference did not contain any statement that the promoters of two Bills, one being the company with which the Deputy was associated, could not see their way to take any step which would prevent the Committee set up by the Oireachtas from proceeding with its duties?

The information given in the letter was that the parties concerned in making the communication had no power whatever to do so.

That again evades the question.

Read the letter.

I suggest that the letter be read.

The point to which I am referring is contained in this——

Will the whole letter be read from beginning to end?

I will read the whole letter:—

"Following the interview which the Commissioners of the County Borough of Dublin and the groups promoting the various Liffey Water Power Bills had with you this morning, we beg to inform you that, after giving the most careful consideration to your suggestions, the Commissioners of the County Borough (representing the Corporation of Dublin) promoting the Dublin and District Electricity Supply Bill, and the Anna Liffey Power Development Co., Ltd. (promoting the Dublin Electricity Supply Bill), have decided that they will place at your disposal, and at the disposal of any expert appointed by you, all information in their possession regarding their respective schemes and ask that you will in turn furnish to each similar information regarding the Shannon scheme."

That point I have not contradicted.

That point I have not contradicted—that information was to be supplied to me.

"They have decided in the meantime that they cannot enter into any arrangement which would interfere with or delay the Committee appointed by the Oireachtas in deciding the duties allotted to it."

If that statement is made in a letter I wonder what is the reference of mine, to which it is an answer. I suggest that it was a suggestion made by me to the promoters of these Bills that they should delay——

That I flatly and absolutely deny.

Then that will be a matter for proof in another way. I may therefore make the point this way with the contradiction of the Deputy, that I believe I made a suggestion to the promoters of these Bills that there should be a delay, and I believe that on my return to the room an hour after I had made the suggestion the promoters of two of the Bills decided that they would go on, but that they would supply certain information, and that I informed them that in the event of their proceeding I would feel it my duty to use whatever power I could get from this House to stop the further progress of these Bills until such time as the report on the Shannon scheme could be laid before the House, and the Bills considered together. So that as far as I believe I acted I did act in a way to preclude what I was then in a state to judge was useless and wasteful expenditure.

The stage at which we have now arrived in these considerations is, therefore, that Private Bills are proceeding before the Private Bills Committee, that a report which I could have made this day last week was delayed in order to enable the Committee dealing with the Private Bills to come to a decision on these Private Bills before I made my statement in this House, and that I am only now proceeding with the statement because that Committee had adjourned over Christmas, and because this matter is so urgent in the interests of the State that a decision of some kind must be taken on it, not to-night, but in the near future, and that certain statements must be made showing what, in anticipation of approval in this House, is to be gone on with. This scheme which, in contra-distinction to two of the Liffey schemes is a national scheme, is, as I said, so full of detail that I doubt if it is possible to give any fair account of it to-night. But there are certain details in it which I would like to put before this House. It will be seen from the dimensions of this volume which I have before me—and which is only portion of the Shannon report—that it is a huge and comprehensive scheme, and as such it has been gone into in and examined in the most minute details by the experts, portion of whose report is to come before you to-night.

This is but portion of the scheme. The diagrams and maps accompanying it are, of course, much bulkier. This is a volume of almost 400 pages, and it contains numerous details, some of a highly technical nature, which would not be interesting to this House, and other parts dealing with economics and the general distribution of the scheme would undoubtedly be of interest to the House, if I had the time and the energy to put them before the House, and if the House had the patience to listen to them.

The scheme as presented, opens with a statement taken from the great Power Conference, held this year at Wembley, in which allusion is made to the dependence of future economic development on the utilisation of the available power resources in any country. Opening with a quotation from an address made there, the report continues, "It must be a matter for wonder that the economic life of this country has up to the present been so dependent on imported coal in spite of the fact that this country is in the enviable position of possessing several large sources of water-power which can be utilised to furnish the land with electrical energy. Other countries such as Switzerland, Spain and Norway, have already developed a large part of their water-power, but at present the Shannon pours its unused energy to the ocean." There is then a statement as to the steps by which the examination proceeded, an examination which was destined to reveal the possibilities of the Shannon as a power-producing agent. It refers to the fact that, having got control of governmental power in the country, it is clear that there should be an effort made "to retrieve what has been so far neglected," and "to raise this country to the same degree of culture, and industrial development that the other nations of Europe enjoy." Many reports had, of course, previously been presented, the result of commissions dealing with the supposed available power in the Shannon, but most of them had been rather of an adverse type. These reports are taken in some detail and criticised. Anticipation is made here in the early part of the report of a final figure showing the cost of power in this State with the Shannon river developed.

That figure is compared with two main stations in Germany and with eight stations in Switzerland. The rate at which current can be sold in bulk to supply associations in this country, after the development of the river, compares favourably with those ten stations chosen for comparison. Only two can be said really to be below the figure at which power can be sold here. Of the two stations in Germany and eight in Switzerland, if taken in the order of cheapness, this country under the Shannon development would rank third.

Is that the place of production of the power?

The figures are given in various ways—price as generated, price as delivered in bulk, say, to Dublin itself. Various other estimates are made and a certain equal line is taken with regard to the percentage of return on capital and the comparison is then made. The figure actually as given here is not the same as the figure with which I shall afterwards have to deal, the figure of 5, which is the price at which, it is understood, power can be delivered in bulk to Dublin under the partial development of the river recommended by the experts. The figure here is somewhat different from that, because costings have to be stepped out on an equal basis, and for the sake of comparison, costings, not actually in the scheme, have to be made appear. In addition to dealing with water power and water power development, those who drew up the scheme had their attention directed to another problem, the problem of drainage in this country. Although those two problems are stated to be partly opposing, it will be found when I come to deal with the details of the report as presented in the scheme that, in fact, the development recommended by the experts for the Shannon does not, as previous reports stated would be the result, flood any further area of the country but does in fact drain areas already flooded. A recommendation is made by the experts that a full drainage scheme, apart from the drainage actually necessary for the purposes of development, should be taken in hands by the Government and carried out without delay.

The question of drainage, in so far as those who drew up this scheme were concerned, entered into their considerations because it had been put forward as an objection against any possible big development of the river Shannon that it would involve further flooding of the already much flooded areas along the river. The scheme so put up, adverting to that fear pointed out how further flooding could be avoided and how the flooding already there could be lessened. Their plans and ideas, after criticism, have been passed and approved by the experts.

There is one other point which is somewhat incidental to the scheme, but is of great importance to the country. It may be mentioned here. Not definitely attached to the scheme immediately but attached to it in an incidental way there was a question of canal rectification. When the details of the scheme itself and the report on the scheme come to be considered it will be found that the particular project set out in the report of the Canal Commission and estimated by that Commission to cost about £250,000 has in fact been accomplished under the development of the Shannon. That is accidental to the scheme. It is not bound up with it, but the capital expenditure, on which the final figure of .5 of 1d. for electricity delivered in bulk in Dublin depends, includes a sum, estimated at a quarter of a million by the Canal Commission, for certain canal rectifications in the neighbourhood of Limerick and along the whole Shannon, so that incidental to the scheme, and apart altogether from the development of power, there is bound to be both a drainage question and a question about canals. It is satisfactory to find that the report of the Canal Commission in certain portions is actually being followed, that what they suggest is being done as portion of this scheme, and that notwithstanding the addition of this amount of money, estimated by the Commission at a quarter of a million, it is possible to deliver from the Shannon to Dublin electricity in bulk at ½d. a unit.

There is one paragraph in the report I might quote here. But before speaking on it I want to make one clear distinction. The Siemens-Schuckert plan looked to either a partial or a full development of the river. They recognised that, in the state of the country, a partial development was the one most likely to be approved, but the final development had to be considered, because they had the point of view—a point of view also shared by the experts—that this country is, in comparison with other countries, unfavourably situated with regard to available water-power, and that, having limited resources in that respect, it was necessary to proceed with a partial development, which would be of such a nature as not to block or render very expensive the completest development of the water-power available in this river. Hence it is that the plan, as put forward by Messrs. Siemens-Schuckert, includes a partial development and a full development scheme. In most of my remarks to-night, I am alluding only to the partial development scheme, as referred to by Messrs. Siemens-Schuckert. There is a full development behind that. It is in the background, but it is always in the consciousness of those who speak about the scheme, because it has to be taken into account in relation to the partial scheme, as one has to bear in mind that nothing can be done now which would prevent the fullest possible development of the limited available water-power of the country afterwards.

When I speak to-night I am alluding to the partial development of the river as projected by Siemens-Schuckert—a partial development, which, I may remark here, has not been in its fullest details approved by the experts, who have themselves recommended a somewhat less partial development than the Siemens-Schuckert people have proposed. Even for that partial development, bearing in mind the full development later on, it is stated here that

The project contemplates utilising the total fall of about 100 feet between Lough Derg and Limerick in a single large step, by leading the water out of the river bed into an inlet canal. As the surface level of Lough Derg and that of the turbine race are to be the same, it will be possible to make a very economical use of the stored water, as the turbines themselves will automatically regulate the amount of water in the lake. By gradually enlarging the power station and by artificially increasing the area of the storage basin, it will be possible to attain the fullest possible development.

That simply hints at the method upon which the German firm proceed. They reject entirely the report of a water-power committee set up under the auspices of the Board of Trade, which advocated the utilisation of the power of the river in a series of steps or a series of power houses in the river itself. They have proceeded on the basis that the only economic use of the power available, allowing for the fullest development afterwards, was by means of a canal which diverted the water from the present bed of the river and made use of the total fall of 100 feet between Lough Derg and Limerick in one single large step. That is really the basis and foundation of this scheme, and it is the point at which it diverges completely from previous reports as to how the power of the Shannon should be utilised, and it is the point upon which it is in conflict with certain propositions put forward for the utilisation of both the Liffey and the Shannon at the same time. There is one general remark which I may also read.

The project has the advantage of developing the greatest output, so that it can supply the whole country with current over a long period of development. It has, furthermore, the great advantage of accommodating the contesting claims of agriculture (drainage questions), navigation, and power development. It completely overcomes the difficulties met with in former attempts to solve these problems. By artificially increasing the storage capacity of the lakes by means of embankments built along the banks, which are not high enough, it will become possible to drain the neighbouring land quite independently of the level of the water in the lakes. Both navigation and power development require as high a water-level as possible, while agriculture, in the interests of good drainage, demands as low a level as possible.

There is at this point of the scheme a paragraph to which I want to make special reference. It says that

the Shannon Scheme described in the following is based on a tentative scheme submitted to the Irish Free State Government in January, 1924, which itself was based on the very valuable work of Mr. J. Chaloner Smith and the extremely accurate ordnance survey maps. Mr. Smith has devoted several years of private work to co-ordinating, classifying and investigating, from a hydrological point of view, the official records and observations relating to the Shannon flow extending over a period of thirty years. In the interests of the community he has most kindly placed the result of his labours at our disposal. His investigations have besides shown that rainfall conditions in Ireland are very favourable to water-power development, much more so, for instance, than in Spain or Italy, where dry periods occur every year, such as occur scarcely every five or ten years on the Shannon, and also more favourable than in Norway, Sweden or Switzerland, where it happens that in winter, just when the largest amount of current is needed, water is scarce, while on the contrary, the Shannon has its largest discharge in winter.

I refer to that paragraph for this reason. It is exceedingly comforting to find that when a scheme of this kind had been long spoken of, and when it finally reached the stage where it had been put forward as a detailed project, and certain accurate details were discovered to be necessary for the furthering of the project, these details were there ready for use, and were very willingly made available to those people. They were ready for use owing to the very expert work done by Mr. Chaloner Smith outside his official tours, and quite apart from his official duties over a period of years. His period of work extended over a number of years, and was in connection with data for the Shannon collected over at least thirty years, and his results were found to be so accurate and had been attained in such a scientific way, that the building up of this report was strengthened and the pace of it was increased, and that finally a scheme based upon his studies met with the approval of the experts appointed. I have spoken of the canal and described it as the foundation of the scheme. The position of it is a matter that is being most eagerly canvassed. Before I go on to describe where exactly this canal lies I would like to make this statement, that if and when this general scheme is approved and it comes to a matter of the compulsory acquisition of land, that land, when about to be acquired will, if persuasion can make this House see the point, be valued at the ordinary rate for land and not because the land has been rendered more valuable on account of this canal.

You should make that apply all round.

It is stated "that to attain the most economic de velopment the scheme utilises as far as possible the water carried by the River Shannon itself. Just above O'Briens-bridge a weir is provided which dams the water level of the river up to the level of the Lough Derg. From there the service water is to be conducted by means of a head race at the right embankment, the average level varying from 95 to 100 feet." Embankments are required to prevent the flooding of the surrounding territory. I will deal later with the actual extent of these embankments. I have mentioned the power-house, which is to lie in the district of Ardnacrusha, about three miles north of Limerick. In the power-house there will be installed the turbines necessary for generating the electricity expected from the development of the river recommended, but in addition, bearing on the question of navigation, on which I touched earlier, on the left of the weir there is to be provided a ship-lock and a fish-ladder. That brings up the question of two rather important items, the question of the protection of the fisheries and the question of the navigation of the Shannon. In the river as it is, during the greater part of the year, there would be a considerable volume of water sinking to a low quantity only in the summer, but under the arrangement projected in this plan there will be a certain amount of water drawn off from the old river bed and sent through the canal, but at the time of the migration of the fish the quantity of water remaining in the old river bed will be considerable, and, in case the fish so desire, they can proceed by the tail race through the canal to the power-station, and by a fish-ladder then get into the new canal above the weir at O'Brien's Bridge, and so later back into the Shannon. I believe that the experience of other countries has shown that where you have a power-house at a canal and a considerable volume of water just below that, the fish will not use the old bed but will go where the water is deepest, and must find themselves eventually at the foot of the fall. It is in order to provide for the work of the Minister for Fisheries and gain his support that a certain allowance has been made for this problem, and that there is a pass which will be sufficient to keep the fish in the river and to keep up the ordinary value of the fishing interests along the river itself. The question of navigation is a more important item. Here also a difference must be made between the partial development scheme, even between the small partial development scheme recommended and the fullest development scheme that may come later. The report of the Canal Commission was, I think, to this effect, that there should be provision made for such rectification of the canal-ways that barges from 130 to 140 tons could proceed up as far as Killaloe. With the existing system, barges of only 80 tons can proceed from the canal harbour at Limerick to Killaloc. Above Killaloe there is navigation for barges of about 150 tons. That being the set of circumstances in regard to barges plying on the canal, there is this further fact that for all practical purposes there is no connection between the canal harbour at Limerick and what may be called the ocean harbour there. Canal boats can only go down the Shannon at one hour of the day owing to tidal influences, but it is so dangerous the owners of the barges prefer not to risk the journey. As I said previously, the new situation arising under the scheme is in the main merely incidental to the scheme; the aim was primarily water-power and not to carry out the Canal Commission's recommendation. But the findings of the Canal Commission were there, what they recommended was in itself suitable, and certain things necessary for the development of water-power led to the carrying out of the Canal Commissioners' recommendations, such as the deepening of the river at a certain point. The result will be that even in the small partial development recommended by the experts barges of 150 tons can proceed over a 12-hours' period in the day from Limerick, from the ocean harbour, to the lock of the weir at the power house. There is there provided a ship's hoist which raises these into the head water canal, and from that the journey to Athlone, presumably, is before them. That is in the smaller partial development recommended by the experts. In the fullest development provision was made for a ship's hoist capable of raising boats of 1,000 tons into the canal, and the canal allows for the passage of boats of 1,000 tons, so from the point of view of navigation the whole condition is improved. The canal itself, if I may give one or two details just to show the magnitude of the work, is to be about 6½ miles long, running from a point in the district of Ardnacrusha, some three miles north of Limerick, and is about 100 yards wide. The depth at the moment I have not got accurately, but, as I have said, it is sufficient to carry a volume of water necessary for the fullest development of the river, and sufficient to carry boats of 1,000 tons. In the power station there are to be installed three machine sets, each of 30,000 h.p. in the partial development recommended. In the fullest development there will be three additional sets each generating 30,000 h.p. added.

Before leaving that question of the canal, I may speak here of the embankments about and even beyond the canal. I have got the figures clearly as to any embanking required under the small partial development recommended, but under the fullest development there would be embankments of nearly 150 miles required along the side of the river. On the drainage question, if I may put it in terms of acreage at the moment, the area liable to flooding is about 11,000 acres, and the amount necessarily drained as part of the full scheme would be all that portion, and in addition whatever portion of the catchment area of the Shannon is subject to flooding at the moment. Under the small development the drainage actually accomplished is of course much less, but the report of the experts recommends that, apart from the development of power, and in addition to any drainage necessitated by the particular power development there should be undertaken a complete drainage of that area. The distribution of the power generated at the power house is set out in a rather long paragraph, from which I might quote as follows:

"It is proposed to construct the distribution network in the following manner. A so-called overland busbar carrying 100,000 v. traverses the entire district. This busbar connects the power station on the one hand with Dublin, where the most important current consumption is situated, and on the other hand with the city of Cork.... This line leads from the power station towards N.E. on the north side of the Shannon River, crosses the river at Killaloe, and the railway line Limerick-Killaloe. The line then passes along the southern slope of the Arra Mountains, then to the north of Nenagh, where the railway line Limerick-Roscrea is crossed," running from there to Maryborough, where under the full development, another 100,000 volt station is provided. It proceeds—"From Maryborough the double line passes further north-east, and crosses south of Monasterevan, the Grand Canal, and the River Barrow, as well as the railway line Kildare-Athy and to the south of Newbridge, the River Liffey. The line then turns N.N.E., crosses to the south of Naas the railway line Naas-Dunlavin, and passes then to the north of the Saggart Hill to the transformer station at Dublin."

What does the Minister mean by a power station at Maryboro'? Does he mean a generating or transforming station?

I may have made a mistake, I should have said a 100 k.v. station, a transforming station. That 100 k.v. line would be the main line connecting, roughly, the power house, Maryboro', and Dublin, and on the other hand, running south direct to Cork. In addition to that there are various subsidiary but still main lines of 35,000 voltage, and from these again there radiate out other lines of 10,000 voltage, the result being that when the distribution network is complete, it will be possible to supply, and there will be a supply, to the outskirts of the majority of towns, and to villages with at least 500 of a population. When I say that they will be supplied, I do not of course mean that immediately after the completion of the scheme there would be transforming pole stations on the outskirts of every town, and of every village with a population of 500, but there is allowance made in the capital expenditure for the erection of these transforming pole stations and the transmission of electricity to towns, and villages with a population of 500. Of course, electricity will not be brought to the outskirts of a town or village, unless within the three year period during which the scheme would develop; it is made clear that the inhabitants of a town, or the area about it, desired electricity to be brought to the outskirts of the town. The capital sum of five million pounds, roughly set out as the capital cost of this scheme, allows for the provision of electricity by means of these various types of lines to all towns and to villages with a population of 500, in the Free State. There are numerous details with regard to proposed railway construction, with regard to the details of the weir, and the sluices, and other technical matters, with which I do not intend to trouble the House.

There are other figures upon which I would like to make a statement. The capital cost of the scheme of development recommended is put down as £5,200,000, and the figures as to certain items with regard to cost will appear much better and more clearly from portion of the Experts' report which is before Deputies. I would like to give here an indication of what that total expenditure is supposed to cover. It covers the deepening of the bed of the Shannon above Killaloe, and the removal of the weir there; the protection of the banks on both sides of the Shannon above O'Brien's Bridge; the weir plant with the inlet construction at O'Brien's Bridge; certain road bridges across the head race, and the completion of the power station, the tail water canal, and the deepening of the Shannon below that point where the tail water canal again joins the Shannon; the railway sidings from Limerick docks to the railway station, and from the station at Long Pavement to the power house.

That is one section of the works to be done under this estimate of the costs, and that is simply constructional costs to a certain point. In addition to that there is also provision of the necessary machinery in the power house, of turbines of pressure pipe lines, surge-tank equipment, and all crane-equipment, weir plant, wherever necessary, certain pumps and ventilators. Further, there is the transmission cost and the cost of the electrical portion. At the power station there is the provision of generators, transformers, switch plant, all the electrical equipment and auxiliary machinery, and the huge, far-flung distribution network which itself would cost a very large sum and would entail immediate very heavy expenditure. There are some details of the actual mileage covered by the network. I take one point, only the smallest. The hundred-thousand volt-line from the power station, via Maryborough to Dublin, and from the power house to Cork covers an extent which necessitates wiring of about 170 miles, and, of course, for the small 35 kilo-volt line, and the ten kilo-volt line, the mileage would be much greater as they radiate out to all the surrounding towns, and do not go along the rather direct route that the main line runs. The other portion of this scheme deals with the basis of economic calculation.

Before the Minister goes away from that, though I am anxious not to interrupt too often, I think it would help if the Minister would state at this stage, what proportion of that £5,200,000 is involved in the initial development of which he spoke, and, secondly, what proportion of it is involved in transmission, as distinct from the general generating cost involving the civil engineering cost for generation?——

I have already explained that it is almost impossible to segregate out certain of the costs the Deputy asks for. The £5,200,000 is meant as the cost of carrying out the particular type of partial development recommended by the experts, but with the fullest development partly provided for. Take one item—the provision of a canal of such a size that it will not have to be widened and deepened or lengthened in order to provide for the fullest possible utilisation of the powers of the Shannon. So that when I say £5,200,000 as the cost of the particular type of development now recommended, it must be borne in mind that that includes a considerable amount of cost that could be avoided if we were merely to set out to develop here and now the particular type of partial development immediately required and not to care for the future. It is impossible for me now, but it can be done later, to disengage and say what portion of the £5,200,000 is really due to the particular type recommended and what is due to the fact that the experts look for a fuller development later. I cannot at this moment disengage the other items the Deputy asks for, but I may say that the cost of generation as opposed to the cost of generation and distribution is a matter that can be got out quite easily later on. The further details of the scheme that I have before me go into the general costings and that, as far as it is necessary for this House at the moment, is dealt with in the portion of the Experts' report that I am coming on to. The scheme deals also with how far the provision of power may be utilised for the promotion of industry in the country, and many suggestions are made and considered by the Experts—"suggestions made with regard to the promotion of new industry and how industries already existing may be helped by the provision of cheap power." The scheme, as I said at the beginning, is so comprehensive that it can only be dealt with by submitting a portion to the House, and by giving sufficient time for the portion submitted to be considered.

I set out merely to give some of the more general aspects of the whole scheme before going on to deal with what the experts have said with regard to the scheme. I have circulated to the Dáil what is described as the conclusion of the experts' Report, and in that conclusion they set out how, in separate chapters, they deal with the main points of the scheme as presented to them. I would like to proceed by way of limited commentary upon certain portions of the Report before me. On page I of this Report it is stated that the "experts reckon, as a result of the examination, that the requirements in electrical energy in the Free State at the end of, roughly, two to three years from the coming into working of a national electrification supply may be estimated as about 150 million units (k.w.), measured at the outgoing terminals in a centralised power station. These requirements, calculated per head of the population, lie below the world average."

That last sentence has to be emphasised. It means not below the average of that section of the world which uses electrical power but below the average all over, including Eskimos and others, who have not any electrical development. So it is a very conservative estimate of what ought to be the development within the period of two or three years after the coming into being of the national supply. Later on on that page the question of how electrical energy is to be supplied in Ireland is dealt with, and the details of certain rival methods are set out "either through one or more concentrated large plants, which, with a widespread transmission, distribute electricity over the whole country or either numerous small local stations."

As that was a point that I felt certain was to be raised, I did ask the experts to go into that matter in some detail. But I quite failed to convince them that anybody in this country would plead for a series of numerous small local stations in opposition to one or more concentrated large plants. The very idea that people could be found in the country to plead for certain small stations in opposition to and in preference to large concentrated power stations—they could not conceive as possible. It was impossible to make them realise that that point would be seriously argued. If it is seriously argued later there is one argument I think which will be conclusive on the point, one which the experts regarded as conclusive. It is only necessary to look at the prices at which small local stations in this country deliver to the consumer and the question is closed. Although I directed the attention of the experts to this point what they have said in that paragraph is the best I could get by way of response to it. The matter seemed to them beyond argument; a matter which required statement and not demonstration. On that point, therefore, they advised simply:—

In favour of the immediate erection of one centralised station capable of extension when necessary, to the full extent of the available power, and which is eventually to be combined with one or more additional large power stations.

On page 3 of the Report before Deputies three proposals are put forward in contrast. These are:—The Siemens-Schuckert Shannon scheme, the Liffey scheme and the Liffey-Shannon combination. The paragraph immediately below that gives the starting off point for their observations on this matter. They said they

"Are aware that the Free State has not a very large quantity of water-power which can be developed. Accordingly in setting out a plant for energy supply a pre-eminently suitable line of power development must be followed."

This is a point on which they were more insistent than on any other. It proceeds that "No partial exploitation of a water power ought to be carried out which makes a full development later impossible from an economic view point." Then again they say—"That no plant should be built which cannot be adapted to growing demand."

They say in the next paragraph—

"These two fundamental viewpoints and consideration of the existing requirements have led the experts to declare that a partial development of the Shannon is the most suitable first step which the Free State can take in the way of electrification. The first development stage which the experts suggest and which corresponds to a requirement of about 150 million units measured at the busbars of the power house is far from the full exploitation of the Siemens-Schuckert Partial Development."

That again is a point which I would like to emphasise. The Siemens-Schuckert scheme projected a full development or alternatively a partial development; the experts' recommendation is a partial development which "is far from the full exploitation of the Siemens-Schuckert partial development." They speak of one which will meet with the requirements of about one hundred and fifty million units.

On that it is necessary to give certain figures. The exploitation which they suggest will be one to meet the requirements of about one hundred and fifty million units, but it has to be noted that when they speak of one hundred and fifty million units they speak of one hundred and fifty million units in a dry year—not in the average year in this country, but in a dry year. The exploitation they now propose will, in fact, in an average year supply the requirements of about 195 million units, so there again it may be seen that the report proceeds on the most conservative lines possible.

On Page 4 they go further into this first development stage of the Shannon, and in accordance with their general principles they look to certain principles and decide that this "proposed first development stage of the Shannon River in no way prevents its full development." There then follows this sentence:

"All further development can be carried out roughly within the limits of what it would cost if it were carried out co-incident with the partial development."

That of course means this: That the stage of the first partial development is such that it allows for later additions, and that the cost of these later additions when made, combined to the original cost will not be any more than what would have been the original cost of that whole portion if done at one time; that is to say it not merely allows for it technically, but it prepares the way for it technically, and financially the early lay out is so arranged that there will be no proportionately extravagant addition to the original cost in carrying out the later and fuller development. Further points of detail are referred to in the later portion of that paragraph. Mention is made in the next page of the question of the Liffey development as opposed to the development of the Shannon. The second paragraph on page 5 states that

"in the opinion of the experts, the Liffey River will also be developed later on, either during the further development of the Shannon or more probably after this, depending on how the consumption of electricity develops. The Liffey storage would in all probability make possible a valuable compensating system for the full development of the Shannon; nevertheless it will be necessary to examine if it would not be more advantageous to use the existing steam station or eventually a new steam station for energy supply at low water periods or for covering peak loads."

That, put in another way, means this, that it is possible that when the Shannon is fully developed and when the needs of the country go beyond the development of the Shannon, the Liffey then can be added on. But while admitting that the Liffey may later become a valuable compensating plant, the experts pass no judgment on whether it would be advisable to add on the Liffey afterwards to the Shannon or to proceed by way of the Shannon, plus either the existing steam development or a new steam plant. In the fourth paragraph on that page, their definite judgment on the Liffey is given. It is:—

"To develop the Liffey at the present time is not advisable because it is too small, because it can supply only the needs of Dublin, and because its output capacity would be very quickly swallowed up, while four-fifths of the State would have no share in the advantages of electricity supply."

Further, they are of the opinion:—

"That the current could be delivered cheaper from the Shannon to the larger consumer, that is Dublin, than it would from the Liffey."

On the point of view of the Liffey alone, in contrast to the Shannon as the power agent over the whole country, the position is clear.

Would the Minister say if emphasis is to be laid on the word "would" in that paragraph? There is a contrast drawn between the two words "could" and "would." The experts are of opinion "that the current ‘could' be delivered cheaper from the Shannon," and then say "than it ‘would' from the Liffey."

I think all that means is that the experts felt as they had not the Liffey scheme before them worked out to the minute detail of the Shannon scheme, they were not in a position to say what was a reasonable charge per unit generated from the Liffey; whereas they were in a position to say what was a reasonable charge in respect of the Shannon.

Can the Minister say what was the reasonable charge given in regard to the Shannon?

That is given later. It is .52.

Can the Minister say how many units would be generated and delivered?

The Deputy will see all that later; all those matters will arise as we go along.

Will the Minister tell me on what wages basis was the Shannon Report made out?

I do not think that at the present moment it would be advisable to state the wages basis. Full allowance has been made in the detailed costings. On the question of wages, there need be no fear that the experts were building on the rate of wages in their own countries. They were very definitely put in possession of information with regard to wages here.

That is what I wanted to get out.

The estimate of wages is based on information supplied by my own Department. On page 6 there occurs a definite recommendation of the experts in the matter of drainage. They advised me that in their mind it was probably somewhat outside the limits of the examination they had been set to do; but the necessity for it was so impressed on them that they ventured to put it in at this point. Having drawn attention to an important economic point indirectly connected with the Shannon scheme, they go on to speak of certain regulations connected with the flow conditions in the lakes and the river even under partial development. The experts then recommend the Government to have the drainage of this area carried out in conjunction with the work which is required for the power scheme. This would mean, they say, if desired, the carrying out earlier than otherwise of a portion of the embankments necessary for the further development of the river.

I do not know if I explained that point clearly when I spoke before. It means that in the fullest development of the Shannon there would have been such a series of embankments and such other provisions that the eleven or twelve thousand acres that are subject to flooding would be relieved. They are not now recommending the full development of the water power; they are recommending a development which will not require the same process of embankment and therefore incidental to the scheme, it will not drain such an area of the Shannon as would be drained by the fullest development. But the experts have been so convinced by their journeyings in the country that the drainage of the area is necessary, that they recommend the Government to proceed at once with the whole Shannon drainage scheme, portion of which will be incidental to the development of the power, and some of which would not ordinarily be attempted as an adjunct of power development until the fullest possible stage of development was reached. On page 6 there occurs a paragraph which brought certain joy to my heart. It runs:—"During the period of construction of the first partial development about 2,500 workers would be employed on the power development work proper for three years. About three hundred further workers would be necessary for the building of the distribution transmission lines. Lastly, the drainage plan proposed in conjunction with it would employ in addition numerous workers."

They touch again on the question of navigation conditions and on fisheries. Again I would emphasise that on the point dealt with in the navigation conditions there has been close attention paid to the recommendations of the Canal Commission. The scheme would in this matter achieve the results approved by the Commission and estimated by that Commission to cost about a quarter of a million. On page 7 there is given a statement of the costs. The constructional cost of the first partial development, including the distribution of the transmission system, works out at about £5,200,000. "The cost includes the complete distributing transmission system bringing electricity to the vast majority of towns and villages of over 500 population and also the preparatory work incidental to the full development."

I would here say that "the vast majority of towns" is simply put in because it may happen that when the very valuable map which I have is produced, I may get a submission from some town that has not been included. It is just possible that some town may have been overlooked, and I do not want to have it said afterwards that I seemed to be very confident that every town was supplied. Therefore, the guarding words, "vast majority," are included. Further on in page 7 you find the average cost of electrical energy at the power station worked out.

Does the Minister not think that the price of .42 of a penny, which he mentioned a little while ago, is somewhat misleading, in view of the fact that this is for 150 million units and that Ireland only consumes at present 46 million units; and does not the Minister think that the equivalent price should therefore be not .42 of a penny, but 1.5 of a penny?

It cannot be misleading to anyone who reads this statement. It clearly speaks of, and is based upon, a consumption of 150 million units. It is only if one sets out deliberately to mislead oneself that any mistake can be made. At the end of page 7 it sets out: "The experts' investigations have shown that electricity can be delivered in bulk to towns, villages, etc., at a price which is appreciably lower than that at which it could be developed in modern individual town plants." It is to be remembered that the .52 of a penny of which I spoke, and not .42 of a penny, refers to the power delivered to the greatest consumer, and that is Dublin.

.53 of a penny, not .52 of a penny.

Yes, it is .53 of a penny. The price to places other than Dublin will, of course, be greater, but no matter what it gets to under this scheme, and it may get to anything under bad management and bad conditions, the price it is estimated to get to, even for towns and villages, should amount to a price less than the price at which electricity could be developed in any individual town plant. The point I refer to is dealt with at page 8. You will find there that: "Owing to the relatively high costs of distribution, due to the smaller degree to which the distribution system is exploited, the price of current for the medium and smaller towns will be appreciably higher."

I might add one word of explanation there. It is owing to the relatively high cost of distribution, due to the smaller degree to which the distribution system is exploited for medium and smaller towns, that the price of current will be appreciably higher. Then the report goes on to say: "The experts are, however, of the opinion that the scheme will allow of energy being supplied for those consumers at an economically justifiable price which is appreciably below the cost at which energy may be developed in a town plant." There follows here a point which may need some explanation. You will find this: "The experts expect that payment, out of revenue, of interest on capital to the full extent of 5½ per cent., after payment of all working expenses and sinking fund, will not be practicable until about the fifth year after the coming into operation of the system. In comparison with similar important undertakings abroad which provide for the community at large, these are thoroughly normal conditions. At the end of about five years a profit would be obtainable after full interest had been paid on the capital. Fifteen per cent. addition to the cost is included in the above-mentioned capital of £5,200,000 and £7,870,000, respectively, to cover the interest during the period of construction, as also the insufficiency in interest in the first four working years."

That is to say, they enlarged the capital so as to leave £400,000 for the payment of interest at a time when they did not think it wise to look for that interest being properly payable out of the revenue to be derived from the sale of power during the first four or five years, and that addition of £400,000 was provided to allow for interest on capital for the period stated. One further point which is not made clear in this report, and to which I alluded incidentally, may be stated quite clearly now. It will take about three years for this scheme to develop. In other words, from the day the first work on the canal or power-house is started until the electricity arrives in Dublin, there will be a period of three years. That comes in incidentally in the question of workers and that is the estimate of the time over which the construction will run.

I beg to move the adjournment until 7.15 p.m.

Will the Minister then resume?

Why not have the interval a little longer—say 7.30 p.m.?

The Minister's proposal would be only giving us a half an hour, and that would not leave us very much time to go anywhere. Why not say until 7.30 at least?

I am agreeable to resuming at 7.30 p.m.

Can the Minister give any indication of how much longer we are likely to be here after resuming?

It is rather difficult to do that, because it depends, of course, on the amount of discussion that is likely to arise. It is desirable that the Minister should make his full statement. After the Minister has finished I think there is nothing to do but to adjourn, and to deal with any question that may be raised on the adjournment.

How much longer will the Minister for Industry and Commerce be?

I cannot estimate it very well. There is one chapter of the experts' report which I have not in full; that chapter deals with the experts' views on the alternative possibility of the development of electrical energy from water power in the Saorstát, and that is what I would like to give in full to the Deputies, with a very few words in addition.

Is it proposed that there should be any discussion on the Minister's statement?

I take it that there would be merely questions, but no discussion, because as no decision is being asked for no discussion would be necessary. That is the Minister's view too, I take it.

Yes, except that I might plead that there should be no questions at all.

Sitting suspended at 6.45 p.m. The Dáil resumed at 7.30 p.m., An LeasCheann Comhairle in the Chair.

I intimated before the adjournment that I wished to read one other portion of the experts' Report, a chapter which I had asked them to pay special attention to, and which I asked them to be more expeditious in the production of than the complete Report. That is, Chapter VIII. of the Report, which they describe as the chapter dealing with the alternative possibilities of developing electrical energy from the water power in the Free State. I propose to read this to the House. They say:—

"The sources of water power in the Free State have been enumerated in the Board of Trade ‘Report on the Water Power Resources of Ireland,' 1921, and in the ‘Report on Water Power,' of January, 1922. Amongst the possible sources there is at the moment question only of the Shannon scheme, the Liffey projects, and the combined Liffey-Shannon solution.

"The experts have already emphasised the fact that the Irish Free State does not contain any considerable quantity of water power, as the fall conditions in the country are comparatively unfavourable. Accordingly, it is necessary to work out the plan for the supply of energy in the most conscientious manner, so that it will be possible to exploit to the full the economic water power available in proportion as the demand for it develops.

"In about twenty years' time the Shannon works and also the Liffey plant will, no doubt, be completely constructed and will be connected with one another, as also possibly with other individual steam plants; a uniform sound supply of electricity for the Irish Free State being insured by this means.

"Therefore, there is in reality only one question: How should the successive stages of this development take place, which river should be developed first?"

Before continuing the quotation from the Report I may say that a distinction has been made between the three Liffey projects at present before the Private Bill Committee and that this Report adverts to one of them. That is, so far, the reason that it had been put to me in letters received that the promoters of a particular Liffey project were not concerned so much with the Liffey alone as with the Liffey viewed as the beginning of a national power development; the Liffey first, with some stage of the Shannon, and advancing by steps on the Shannon. There falls for consideration here, therefore, mainly a national scheme which has as its origin the Liffey development.

Is not that conception common to all the Liffey projects?

It has only been put to me as common to one, but the Report will reply to any other. To return to the Report:—

"The ‘National Electricity Supply Scheme' drawn up by Messrs. J.F. Crowley and Partners, is not essentially different from the Liffey projects: Both groups are directed towards the same end, the utilisation of the power of the Liffey. They are based on the idea that this plant alone can be of interest to financiers, because it will supply the city of Dublin and environs, that is, the principal consumer in the Free State, and through this one customer the plant will have a full load—that is to say, will be fully exploited.

"The experts admit unquestionably that if the Shannon works were not to be built the construction of the Liffey plant would be very desirable and suitable for Dublin. The experts, however, are obliged to contemplate the question of the supply of electricity to the Free State from a higher standpoint, and to consider the electrification of the whole country while in no way injuring the justifiable interests of Dublin.

"At this point it can be stated that the Shannon Scheme supplies the whole Free State as well as its capital while the Liffey scheme can supply the capital and environs only. The construction of the Liffey plant and the supply of electricity to Dublin will in no way prepare for the electrification of the remainder of the Free State. But as the Government cannot delay the supply of electricity to the remaining Irish towns and to the country, the experts are of the opinion that it would be necessary to undertake immediately the erection of a further centralised power station on a large scale, for which very considerable sums of money would have to be invested. For these reasons the experts recommend that in the first place the construction of the Shannon works should be proceeded with, because, even in the partial development, it will make three to five times as much energy available as the Liffey works; because it will at the same time give the whole country a share in the advantages of electricity supply and because it can supply current on more favourable terms to the capital, Dublin.

"The experts are quite conscious of the fact that there are financial disadvantages in the way of this development although these disadvantages will hold only for a few years.

"One who is compelled to give his principal consideration to an immediate financial return will construct the Liffey works. But one who has before his eyes a national scheme to be carried out in the interests of the whole people and who to that end decides to wait for some years for the development of a sufficient demand will develop the Shannon. The capital costs estimated by the experts in Chapter VII. accordingly contain an item of 15 per cent. for building interests and loss of interest during the first four or five working years.

"If the Liffey works were built to-day and Dublin alone were supplied the whole problem remains unsolved for the State; its basis is, however worsened, because the Shannon works would still have to be built in their partial development stage without the security of having the largest consumer as a customer.

"The solution suggested by Messrs. J.F. Crowley and Partners, i.e., that in addition to the Liffey plant a modest partial development of the River Shannon should be carried out a few years later, or even now, must be rejected on the one hand, because a development of the River Shannon in a number of successive steps is in itself uneconomic, all the more so when the first steps are carried out without any regard to the succeeding ones; on the other hand, because a development of the Shannon now together with the Liffey would render the output of the latter (approx. 50 or 65 mill. units) superfluous when the partial development of the Shannon is carried out in the manner in which the experts think it ought to be (with 150 mil. units—the calculated needs of the Free State).

"The suggestions of Messrs. J.F. Crowley and Partners have been examined in detail by the experts. They have also had a conversation with Dr. J.F. Crowley in order to be clear about his aims. In the communication of the 4th November, 1924, the authors of this plan mention that only one power plant on the River Shannon is under consideration. They suggest a partial development of the river below Killaloe with a step of 18 feet. In the later letter of the 12th November, 1924, there was talk of a fall of 60 feet, which presumably (analogous to the Siemens-Schuckert plan) is to be attained, at least in part, by means of a power canal. Accordingly, the point of view underwent a considerable change during a period of a week, presumably as a result of further studies. In any event the fixed Shannon proposition of Messrs. Crowley and Partners is not yet ripe enough in its fundamental principles. The experts are accordingly convinced that if Dr. J.F. Crowley continues his studies he will arrive at the same conclusion as the experts and Messrs. Siemens Schuckert, namely, that the development of the entire fall stage—Lough Derg, Limerick— with about 90 to 100 feet of a fall in one step and in its entirety, is the only correct economical means of utilising the Shannon, and the only non-destructive plan for further development.

"It is true that Messrs. Crowley and Partners—in as far as their plan is concerned—have an interest in not estimating at too high a level the capacity of the River Shannon or the storage power of its lakes, because, the more the storage space of the Shannon is improved, the less will be the advantages of the suggested Liffey-Shannon combination. This does not mean to suggest that the two rivers should not be later used in combination, but the possibility of this ought not to be used to limit the complete development of the Shannon. The diagrams of Dr. J.F. Crowley show that the proportion between the increase of constant yearly energy and increase in storage grows less and less as the storage is enlarged, obviously in order to argue that there are no economic advantages in developing the Shannon plant beyond a certain point. But it must be observed that in every plant using storage the relatively largest increase of its constant energy is invariably produced by the first units of the storage content. This is, therefore, not a peculiarity of the Liffey-Shannon combination alone. If one includes, instead of the storage content of the Liffey, an equivalent volume of the Shannon, then the energy obtained from the latter by this means will work out cheaper than that obtained in the Liffey-Shannon combination. There are, accordingly, no reasons for not availing of the widest possible storage in the Shannon plant. Moreover, in contrast to the statement of Messrs. J.F. Crowley and Partners, it is a fact that the equivalent storage-space-unit in the Liffey is not cheaper than in the Shannon, that the increase of the storage space in the Shannon will produce regulated conditions with regard to the floods which occur to-day, and will establish the basis for a systematic drainage of the Shannon basin.

"From a purely financial point of view one might also argue that it would be advantageous to develop the step between the World's End weir and Donass, as is mentioned in the report on water power. This, however, ignores the fact that hereby a loss of about 13m. of the whole fall would be involved, because it could not be utilised later on in an economic manner.

"The proposition of Messrs. J.F. Crowley and Partners is represented only by a dossier—a veritable scheme is not before us. It is true that such a scheme would be worked out if the experts wish it. However, the experts are of opinion that for general national and national economic reasons the combination Shan-non-Liffey has advantages over the combination Liffey-Shannon, and that accordingly the further study of the Liffey scheme in its connection with the Shannon plant can be deferred at least until such date as the partial development of the Shannon is utilised to the full."

The last sentence would mean in about twenty-five years' time.

Does the Minister propose to make any reflection upon this contest between his two possible sets of advisers?

I have only one set of advisers in this matter, the experts to whom all the schemes were submitted, and whose Report in part has been laid before the House, and whose Report in full, when received, will be circulated to Deputies, or laid before the House. The point I think we have arrived at, as a result of what I have said to-night, is that we have advanced, in accordance with the White Paper, to the point where the Shannon scheme has been modified and has been in a particular stage approved in the most enthusiastic way by the experts selected for the purpose of investigating the whole Report. It will be for the Dáil later to decide whether the experts' recommendations as to a partial development stage in a small way, in comparison with the partial development stage in the fullest way, as outlined by Messrs. Siemens and Schuckert, or the fuller stage still, is to be proceeded with, and to determine any other question connected with the carrying out of the terms of the White Paper. It is my statement to the Dáil, without in any way committing the Dáil, but realising the importance of this scheme, and the importance of the speediest work possible on the scheme. I should proceed in certain ways, as if the terms of the White Paper were further to be complied with. That is to say, that I should, at least, think out and prepare for the organisation of the development of the stage as recommended by the experts, on the assumption that the experts' Report will meet with the approval of the House, and that further steps along the lines of the White Paper will be approved by the House.

The House will not be committed in any way. It will be a matter of Departmental organisation, a matter of striving to have certain things brought fully up to date so that when this House next gets a chance of voicing its opinion on this matter, if its opinion prove favourable, there would be no delay in proceeding with the carrying out of the scheme as recommended by the experts, or any other stage that would be further approved by the House.

Will the Minister say whether that commits the Dáil to any further expenditure, other than the sum already allowed?

It will only commit myself to a further expenditure of energy and certain officials of mine to an expenditure of time and energy. I have spoken of the experts in connection with this scheme, and I think it only right that I should say that, being entirely inexpert in the matter and being very much in the dark as to what particular type of expert judgment should be brought to bear on this report, I consider myself extremely lucky in the four who were finally selected and whose judgment is in part before this House. The choice was governed by a variety of conditions; the countries from which experts were to be chosen had first to be decided, and some investigation made as to where experts were likely to be found. With regard to the four gentlemen who actually did pass their judgment on this scheme I doubt if so much talent of a technical type has been brought to bear upon any proposal in this country for years as was brought to bear upon the proposition put forward by Messrs. Siemens Schuckert. Yet, to a certain extent the experts selected themselves. When you had before you the chance of securing the main director of the whole Norwegian State Electricity system, and the second in command of the whole Swedish State Electricity system, and when a comparison was made between these two countries and Ireland, and when the state of development in either of these two countries, at a not very late period in their history was contrasted with what exists here to-day, it was almost essential and automatic that the choice of Director Borgquist and Director Norberg-Schulz should be made. When referring to Director Borgquist of the Swedish system I desire to express my own appreciation, an appreciation in which, I am sure, the House will join, of the courtesy of the Swedish Government, through their Legation in London, in allowing Director Borgquist to be absent from his own State work in order to carry out expert judgment of this scheme.

I have mentioned the two Directors of the State systems first, because, as I say, they almost automatically selected themselves.

That does not mean that I am in any way disappointed or less appreciative of the work done by Professor Rohn and Professor Meyer-Peter, the two Swiss experts who joined in presenting the report on this scheme. When the technical experts of Switzerland fell for consideration, the names of these two professors also came to the forefront at once. So that having decided that Switzerland was a country the electrical development of which was such as to make almost necessary the selection of a Swiss expert for technical details such as this, it was again almost automatic that the names of Professor Rohn and Professor Meyer-Peter should be brought prominently before those who were to make the selection.

With regard to the actual work done by those four in combination, I, being inexpert in these matters, do not believe that I can fully appreciate the tremendous task that it must have been to examine, in a very intensive way and over a relatively short period, a scheme of such magnitude and set out in such comprehensive detail as the Siemens-Schuckert scheme was set out. I had contact with the four experts while they were in Dublin, and with one of them in Zurich, and I had a certain opportunity of observing their work. It is, of course, obvious that I am not in a position properly to evaluate what they have done, but there were things which were made clear to even an amateur's view, the application, the diligence, and the enthusiasm which they showed about their work, the care which they took over it, the details into which they went, the fact that they were able to, and that they actually did draw themselves away from their own work and spend a certain time in Ireland on the scheme, added to the amount of time which they gave to it while they were in their own homes, all this makes it quite clear that there could not possibly be a more conscientious and diligent piece of work than was performed by these four experts. I need say nothing of the firm of Messrs. Siemens Schuckert; their report, when published in detail and submitted to the criticisms of this House, acting upon various criticisms passed by the experts, will firmly establish a reputation here which has been very definitely established elsewhere, in every country outside of Ireland.

I have briefly referred to Irish contact with the scheme in the person of Mr. Chaloner Smith, and I would like to refer to that again, because while I have found myself subjected to criticism for not appointing Irish experts to supervise a scheme of this magnitude, and while that criticism may still be pressed, I may here state, without any hypocrisy, that it gave me the greatest pleasure to hear the comments of those of the Siemens Schuckert firm who were engaged on the preparation of the Report on the Shannon upon the careful and conscientious work which Mr. Chaloner Smith had done, outside of office hours and of his official duties, over a period of years, done with such technical accuracy and in such a scientific method that the basis of the scheme was ready for the Siemens Schuckert people when first they arrived to prepare their scheme.

That was one Irish point of contact with it. There was another. It gives me considerable pride in the University in which I graduated to find that it was a young Irish graduate of that University who, being in the employment of Messrs. Siemens-Schuckert, first thought of and followed with enthusiasm this project of the development of the River Shannon. It is possibly a year since this project of the utilisation of the power of the River Shannon for the country's needs first came clearly before the mind of Dr. McLoughlin, and over that period, while the scheme was part forming and while his attention was directed to other events, he showed so much energy and enthusiasm in getting this particular project brought to a head that he did finally succeed in impressing his point of view upon the directors of Siemens Schuckert firm and upon the Cabinet of the Irish Government. It does seem to me to be a matter worthy of comment that in a country in which electrical engineers have so little chance of being properly developed, there was discovered, at the proper time, a young graduate of the National University who, in a distant country, could conceive the idea of this, could interest the great firm of Siemens Schuckert in it, and could, by attention to details that were within his own province, help to get prepared a scheme which has secured the approval of these experts, the approval which has been in part put before you this evening. I consider that although Irishmen might have been to a certain extent removed from advising on the details of this project, there is, at any rate, a certain amount of pride to be taken from the fact that in the persons of Mr. Chaloner Smith and Dr. McLoughlin there was to some degree Irish contact with this great scheme.

I have circulated a document containing particulars of the scheme. The document is as follows:—

The fundamentals of the problem of electrification for Ireland are discussed in the Introduction and Chapters I, and II. of this Report. Chapter I contains the results of the examination by the experts of the energy requirements; Chapter V. contains detailed particulars on this point. Chapter II. deals with the Hydraulic and Geological conditions of the Shannon river. In Chapter III., entitled "Water Economy Plan," the time relation of water quantity to energy demand is examined in accordance with the actual and latent requirements in energy. Hereby the size of storage is settled. Chapters IV. and VI. deal with the projected constructional works, the machine and electrical plant, the judgment of the experts thereon, and lay down the charges and extensions which they recommend. The modifications proposed by the experts, in accordance with the White Paper of the 24th and 29th February, 1924, have necessitated further investigation in the Shannon area as also further researches and estimates by Messrs Siemens Schuckert. The results of these modifications are approved by the experts and will be handed by the firm through the experts to the Government in the shortest possible time. Chapter VII. deals with calculations relating to the economics of the scheme, the costings, and with the works organisation, as also with the production costs of electricity and the probable returns on capital invested. In Chapter VIII, using as a basis the material to hand, there is an examination of the further possibilities of developing energy in the Free State. Hereunder the results of the above-mentioned studies are put together.

The experts reckon as a result of the examination that the requirements in electrical energy in the Free State at the end of roughly two to three years from the coming into working of a national electrification supply may be estimated at about 150 million units (k. Wh.), measured at the outgoing terminals in a centralised power station. These requirements calculated per head of the population lie below the world average. As soon as electrical energy is available at cheap rates based on a sound economy the consumption will in a few years reach the above-mentioned level. A far-seeing commercial management of the whole electrification plant has to aim, therefore, at ensuring that the advantages and numerous uses of electrical energy in household, industrial and agricultural spheres shall become known to everybody.

Electrical energy can in the main be won in two ways in Ireland, either through numerous small local stations, each striving independently to deal with local conditions as well as possible, or through one or more concentrated large plants which, with a wide-spread transmission system, distribute electricity over the whole country. Such concentrated plants are to be preferred, as they permit of a much better compensating system in the requirements of electrical energy and allow current to be supplied at lower prices. The experts advise in favour of the immediate erection of one centralised station, capable of extension when necessary to the full extent of the available power, and which is eventually to be combined with one or more additional large power stations.

The experts have established as a result of their investigations that in the first development stage a centralised water power station is to be preferred to a fuel-burning station, as the existing available water power in Ireland permits of such cheap development as to allow of successful competition with fuel-burning stations. There is a further consideration in favour of water power of importance to the State— which presumably will take over electricity supply—namely, that of independence in its electricity supply, even if coal eventually becomes cheaper. It may be here remarked that even though Ireland has in the matter of water power only small heads, yet there seldom exists in other lands so good coincidence in point of time between water quantities and energy demand.

At present three proposals for the development of water power are in the foreground. There is that which the experts have, in the first place, to examine, Messrs. Siemens Schuckert Shannon scheme, further, the Liffey schemes, and, finally, the Liffey-Shannon combination.

The experts are aware that the Free State has not a very large quantity of water power which can be developed. Accordingly in setting out a plan for energy a pre-eminently suitable line of power development must be followed. Above all no partial exploitation of a water power ought to be carried out which makes a full development later impossible from an economic view point. On the other hand, for the start no plant should be built which cannot be adapted to growing demand.

These two fundamental view-points and consideration of the existing requirements have led the experts to declare that a partial development of the Shannon is the most suitable first step which the Free State can take in the way of electrification. The first development stage which the experts suggest, and which corresponds to a requirement of about 150 million units measured at the busbars of the power house is far from the full exploitation of the Siemens Schuckert partial development. Combined with existing steam stations which would be called on to supply an average of ten million units per year additional energy, the partial development is capable of delivering about 225 million units per year.

The proposed first development stage of the Shannon River in no way prevents its full development. All further development can be carried out roughly within the limits of what it would cost if it were carried out coincident with the partial development. Some work necessary for further development of the river must be carried out coincident with the partial development, as it would later be more costly or would disturb the running of the station. The tail race, the machine house, and the storage in the lakes would be further developed by the simple process of being somewhat enlarged. The head race would remain unchanged. The storage development can be carried out in a succession of stages. First of all Lough Derg would be regulated without increasing its level, then the level of Lough Ree would be increased, after this Lough Allen and lastly Lough Derg. During a dry year and without using any additional sources of energy there could accordingly be delivered the year's requirements for general supply as outlined in the full development, about 275 million units. By a moderate addition of steam energy the afore-mentioned units could be considerably increased by an average of about 30 to 40 per cent a year.

The experts declare themselves distinctly in favour of this one step system of partial development as against the more expensive and in general less suitable system of development in a number of steps which necessitates various separate weir plants and various separate machine houses. The Siemens Schuckert partial development, in the reduced form suggested by the experts, will, as already mentioned, deliver about 150 million units, and this is the smallest plant with which the electrification of the Free State should be begun to-day, if a supply of energy for the use of the whole country is the consideration.

In the opinion of the experts the Liffey River will also be developed later on, either during the further development of the Shannon or more probably after this, depending on how the consumption of electricity develops. The Liffey storage would in all probability make possible a valuable compensating system for the full development of the Shannon; nevertheless it will be necessary to examine if it would not be more advantageous to use the existing steam station, or eventually a new steam station for energy supply at low water periods or for covering peak loads.

In about twenty years the fully developed Shannon, together with the Liffey plant, and the steam stations would probably build an advantageous source of electricity supply for the Free State.

To develop the Liffey at the present time is not advisable, because it is too small, because it can supply only the needs of Dublin, and because its output capacity would be very quickly swallowed up, while four-fifths of the State would have no share in the advantages of electricity supply. The experts are of the opinion that the current could be delivered cheaper from the Shannon, to the largest consumer, that is Dublin, than it would from the Liffey.

The experts wish to draw special attention to an important economic point which indirectly is connected with the carrying out of the Shannon scheme.

Flow conditions in the lakes and in the river will be regulated in providing for storage—in the first partial development at Lough Derg, and on the Shannon from Lough Derg to Meelick; later by the full development at Lough Ree, Lough Allen, and from Meeling to Lough Ree. This regulation of the river forms the fundamental basis for a drainage of the Shannon area. The experts recommend the Government to have the drainage of this area carried out in conjunction with work which is required for the power scheme. This would mean, if desired, the carrying out, earlier than otherwise, of a portion of the embankments necessary for the further development of the river.

The surplus energy available in winter would make possible in the most suitable fashion the running of seasonal industries, whereby a limited number of workers engaged in summer in agriculture would find employment in winter.

During the period of the construction of the first partial development, about 2,500 workers would be employed on the power development work proper for three years. About 300 further workers would be necessary for the building of the distribution transmission lines. Lastly, the drainage plan proposed in conjunction with it would employ in addition numerous workers.

Navigation conditions between Lough Derg and the Harbour of Limerick would be very much improved. In particular the ten locks on this stretch would be replaced by one single ships hoist.

For protecting the fisheries all possible precautions are provided, in particular, fish passes by the weir at O'Brien's Bridge, as also at the Turbine House.

The constructional cost of the first partial development (including the distributing transmission system, works out according to the estimates of Messrs. Siemens Schuckert, and taking into consideration the modifications of the experts at about £5,200,000—providing for 63,000 installed kw. The cost includes the complete distributing transmission system bringing electricity to the vast majority of towns and villages of over 500 population, and also the preparatory work incidental to the full development. The cost for the eventual final development works out at about £7,870,000, providing for 126,000 kw. installed. The average cost of electrical energy at the power station will work out as follows:—

For the first development:

d. per unit.

For the consumption of about 150 million units

0.42

For the consumption of 215 million units derived from water (neglecting the 10 million units to be provided from steam stations)

0.30

For the further development:

With consumption of about 237 million units

0.42

For the final development:

With consumption of about 275 million units

0.36

With consumption of 400 million units derived from water (neglecting the additional energy from steam plant)

0.25

The experts' investigations have shown that electricity can be delivered in bulk to towns, villages, etc., at a price which is appreciably lower than that at which it could be developed in modern individual town plants.

Because of the different costs of distribution the prices of electricity must be varied according to the amount of energy consumed. For the greatest consumer (Dublin) the cost of current would not be more than 0.53d. per unit at the place of delivery.

Owing to the relatively high costs of distribution due to the smaller degree to which the distribution system is exploited, the price of current for the medium and smaller towns will be appreciably higher. The experts are, however, of the opinion that the scheme will allow of energy being supplied for these consumers at an economically justifiable price which is appreciably below the cost at which energy may be developed in a single town plant. The experts expect that payment out of revenue of interest on capital to the full extent of 5½ per cent. after payment of all working expenses and sinking fund will not be practicable until about the fifth year after the coming into operation of the system. In comparison with similar important undertakings abroad which provide for the community at large, these are thoroughly normal conditions. At the end of about five years a profit would be obtainable after full interest had been paid on the capital. 15 per cent. addition to the cost is included in the above-mentioned capital of £5,200,000 and £7,870,000 respectively to cover the interest during the period of construction as also the insufficiency in interest in the first four working years. This addition should prove approximately right.

The experts hope that the State eventually, in conjunction with the towns, will succeed in carrying through the electrification of the Free State, beginning with the economically most favourable possibility, the partial development of the Shannon River as proposed by Messrs. Siemens Schuckert and as modified by the experts.

The estimates of Messrs. Siemens Schuckert fulfil the conditions laid down in the White Paper.

The price of the hydro-electric energy produced lies thoroughly within the limits of that paid in countries which are better developed in the matter of electricity supply.

If the authorities who supply electricity to the consumer endeavour to carry out a sound supply price policy, the consumption will increase considerably and the price of electricity to the consumer will work out about as favourable, for example, as in Switzerland, a country which has experienced an enormous development in the spread of electricity.

The disposition and the carrying through of the electrification plan will require from the State the closest attention.

I think it was fairly well understood that this was not to be an occasion for discussing the statement of the Minister, but possibly one or two questions might be raised and answered to save unsatisfactory controversy during the recess. I think it is not out of place while congratulating the country as the Minister has done on the work that he has outlined this evening in a way so different from many other projects that have been boosted in the newspapers, that I should agree with the view that there has been a real scientific examination of this scheme before it was formally placed before the country. I think we are entitled also to congratulate ourselves and the Minister upon having heard so lucid and clear a statement of a very complicated subject. I felt, while hearing the story, that I was having related by word of mouth one of H.G. Well's stories or, perhaps, De Rougement's fantasies. However, we know as a matter of fact it is not a fantasy, and it is not a fable inasmuch as it is a scheme as outlined by scientists who have presumably at the back of their minds finance, as well as science, and that brings us down to earth, and adds very much to our appreciation of the statement made by the Minister. There are two or three questions which the Minister might possibly be able to answer, which I would like to put. The first is whether in the course of the discussions and the enquiries, any thought has been given to the Erne and the falls of the Erne in the Ballyshannon district and the fitting in of that power with a national scheme of electrical development. There is one other question which has reference to the first page of the White Paper referring to the binding estimate, "The actual proposals of the firm were as follows, to make a binding estimate as to costs, including the price at which power can be delivered to the cities, towns, and other places." The Minister has referred to a price of .53 delivered in Dublin. Then he went on to say that that was based on an estimated consumption of 150,000,000 units. I would like to know whether that is a binding estimate. Does it mean that if this scheme is fulfilled by the firm of Siemen Schuckert that they bind themselves to deliver to Dublin at this price?

I think a great deal of controversy might be saved if that can be stated to be the position. Then I would like to have the Minister's view as to how this question is to be brought before the Dáil—whether it is intended that a Private Bill or a Public Bill will be submitted to the Dáil and Seanad, whether there will be the same kind of critical and possibly expert examination as has taken place in regard to the other Liffey schemes, or whether there is to be simply a public, periodical—that is to say, a newspaper controversy. In a general way I would like to know what is the Minister's view of the method of bringing this matter under criticism before the scheme is undertaken with the sanction of the Legislature. Also, I would like to ask him whether it has yet been decided, even in his own mind or the minds of the Executive, that if this scheme is to be taken in hand, it is to be taken in hand as a private venture or as a national scheme, not merely as a national scheme for the supply of power but worked out under national auspices at the risk of the State as well as at the expense of the State, or whether it is to be handed over for private exploitation under certain limitations. I think that is a question that has been probably already decided and I think the Dáil should be advised at the earliest possible date as to whether the Ministry has come to any conclusion on that point. These are the two or three questions I would like to submit, and again I would like to say that I, for myself, and I am quite sure for the House in general, commend the Minister for his very lucid and clear statement.

I do not wish to say much in regard to this matter, beyond asking a few questions. Any sense of competition that one might possibly have had some time ago in regard to this matter was put out of sight some weeks ago and now I feel with regard to it—as I should like to have felt at any time—that whatever is best for the country is the right thing and must be done. In order that we should be in a position to determine that, it is necessary that we should be in possession of somewhat fuller information than is available now. I do not wish to say anything that may appear to be deprecatory of the Minister's statement.

I am just as much in admiration of the lucidity of that statement as Deputy Johnson, but there are one or two items of the information he imparted to us that are a little difficult to me to understand, according to the figures at present available. He has said, for example, that if the Shannon scheme be prosecuted at 150 million units per annum, the price could be at the bus-bars .42. Actually, the consumption of Ireland at the present moment is not 150 millions, but rather 48 millions, of which 36 millions are consumed in Dublin itself. It is necessary that we should know what the starting price would be not at 150 million units—which is assumed to be what the country will attain after two or three years—but at the moment when the scheme is put in operation. All those things, however, could be finally decided if the Minister would take the course I suggest—that is, that the report that has been put in with the full details of the scheme, including the entire costs and estimates, which he has there in a large printed book from which he has read us excerpts, should be made available to the Dáil. I took that book to contain Messrs. Siemens Schuckert's scheme, and in addition to that scheme the experts' advice should be separately available, with all documents in regard to the matter. I imagine that he may say in answer to me that a certain amount of expense will be incurred in connection with this proposal of mine for which the Dáil would have to be prepared. I noticed as he read from Messrs. Siemens Schuckert's book—the large tome which he had—that it was printed. Therefore, it exists to-day either set up in type or in stereo. If it were sent in by Messrs. Siemens Schuckert I imagine that it exists in stereotype in Germany and that, therefore, it would not have been set up here in Ireland. It would be a cheaper way if the type or stereos exist that advantage be taken of it to economise the cost of enabling Deputies and others interested in the matter to get copies of that scheme, with a view to examining it in detail and comparing it with the experts' report. That should be done as quickly as possible, so that before the Dáil is put to the necessity of coming to some decision either in the Shannon or Liffey scheme as to comparison between one and the other, the information would be before every Deputy and engineer in the country which is now available to the Minister and his advisers. I hope the Minister will see the propriety of such a course. He has informed us that the partial initial development of the Shannon scheme, if it is prosecuted, would cost about 5¼ million pounds. The ultimate development would amount to the better part of ten million pounds. Before the country incurs a debt amounting to that sum, the service on which will be a very heavy charge on this country for several years, we ought at least to incur the expense of a few hundred pounds—if it would cost so much—to put ourselves in possession of the information contained in the document which the Minister has and which we have not. Though we have had the advantage of his quotations and his glance over the field he has travelled for the last few weeks, it is advisable that, when the country or the Oireachtas is called to give any decision on the matter, they should do so with the information before them that the Minister himself now has.

I rise really to associate myself with the remarks made by Deputy Johnson. I may claim to be in a position to judge somewhat of the difficulties of the subject the Minister dealt with. I have nothing but the highest admiration for the way in which he treated that subject, picked out the essential features of a vast scheme, and laid them before us so clearly and lucidly. I think, with Deputy Johnson, that the Minister is to be congratulated on his presentation of that problem, and that the House is to be congratulated on the way in which it was put before it.

I only add one remark: that is, that I venture to hope this marks a very big day in Irish history, that we may from this turn our attention—taking our position here as a fixed position— to the most important thing in this country, and that is the practical question of how the country is to be advanced and brought into a real state of prosperity. It needs very little imagination to see in the scheme which the Minister has laid before us possibilities of progress and of a future for the country which may be indeed quite beyond the highest hopes of many of those who have very high hopes for it.

The Minister has called forth a chorus of congratulation on the way he has handled this subject, and I would like to be a party to that commendation, but that very ability with which the Minister has dealt with this subject, I think requires each of us to recognise that we have not really grasped the subject which the Minister has been explaining to us this evening. We could not possibly do it, and what we have been considering, in addition to the Minister's statement, are extracts, if I may call them so, from the information contained in Messrs. Siemens Schucker's report, as reported on by the experts. We have the cost of them stated here, and I would like to ask the Minister if he agrees with me that the costs are really based on a Dublin supply. Dublin, of course, is the big end of the stick at present, whatever it may be in the future. There is a danger of concentrating all supply in this way.

Assume the Liffey scheme had gone on. There are certain units of power used in mass production or by individuals and it might pay the Liffey scheme to give a special rate for those large consumers without their being able actually to produce the current at that rate—in other words, to spread the lower estimate of costs over the rest of the consuming area and to bring down that cost to what would be lower than the generating cost of the whole. I only mention that to indicate that although one is immediately struck with the immense possibilities of the scheme, as put forward, one would hesitate very much to accept it until one had opportunity of a close examination. I presume the Minister will not ask us to come to any decision on those matters without giving us a reasonable time for examination, and in the event of anything being proposed to be done to give us an opportunity of criticising the matter before any such contract as the original contract on which this is based is entered into. I think the Minister said it was discussed in the Dáil. It was never discussed in the Dáil at all; it was issued only as a White Paper.

I want merely to mark my appreciation, in common with the other Deputies, of the cold, logical, businesslike statement the Minister made on this very big subject this evening. I am sure that Deputies will agree that it is the biggest statement made by a Minister in this House since it first met. It has probably the greatest possibilities, too, for the future development of the country. The scheme is really too vast; its possibilities are too great for us to enter now into any discussion of it whatsoever. I am not in agreement even with Deputy Hewat or Deputy Figgis, when they say that certain documents and papers will enable us to master the scheme. I doubt that very much. I am afraid that, even at the best, we have got to rely on what the experts say. At all events, we have got to rely very largely on what they say. The Minister has done very well, and I feel like urging him to continue to expend his energy and the energy of his staff in the work before him in connection with this scheme. If, when he comes to us with another explanation, the results of his labours are as satisfactory as the results he put before us to-night, I am quite sure that we will welcome them as we welcomed his statement this evening.

From these benches I wish to congratulate the Minister on the statement he has made this evening. The subject is one with which I have been associated for the past 20 years. I had taken a very large part in two schemes for the development of both electric power and light. Unfortunately, the trouble in both cases was that the cost to the consumer was too great and both schemes had to be abandoned. The present scheme offers great possibilities for the development of industry and for cheapening the cost of power and light to the farmer. Lighting will be available to the farmer at a cost which will be much less than he has been paying up to the present, while the power possibilities are also very great. Two industries in which I was interested were very prejudicially affected owing to the cost of suction gas, or the ordinary gas produced in towns, while the cost per unit for electricity was also too high. This scheme is on different lines. If the people do not avail of it at the beginning, I believe that before three years they will avail fully of it. I rise not merely to express appreciation of what has been done for the development of the country on a large scale, but I rise also to support the suggestion of Deputy Figgis that those facts and figures should be placed before us, so that the people of the country, and particularly those interested in industrial development and farmers requiring cheap power and cheap light, will appreciate the possibilities. They will be interested when they find, as I presume they will, that this power is going to be made available to them at a price lower than any power that they have used up to the present, and at a price which will make their work profitable. I join with the other Deputies in congratulating the Minister on the calm and lucid manner in which he has placed the scheme before us and I support the suggestion that the figures should be placed before the country, so that the people will understand that any steps the Government may take in the development of the scheme will be really in the highest interests of the country.

As the solitary representative in the House of a constituency which will benefit very much from this scheme—inasmuch as the power station will be erected in Clare—I desire to join in the chorus of congratulation to the Minister on his very lucid and able statement. But I think we should, for a while at least, suspend judgment on the scheme. It has, indeed, very great potentialities, but I think it is a real danger to display at once the quality of facile optimism. The success of this scheme will depend very much on its capacity for producing cheap power. If any causes operate to raise the cost to a figure which would not make it economical or useful, then the scheme would be a failure, the money sunk in it would be lost, in so far as it would remain unproductive, and the whole thing would be a white elephant. I repeat that if the energy produced is not produced commercially, the undertaking must be a failure. It is on the supervision and on the clear grasp of realities in all those constructive works which must take place before the scheme comes into being, that its success or failure depends.

It is premature for a layman to discuss the question, seeing it has occupied the attention of the experts for so long. It is premature to say whether there should be a single station at Ardnacrusha or whether the other scheme for a station at Killaloe, which the Minister referred to, should be adopted. There is a good deal of point in Deputy Figgis' statement regarding the supply of energy, so as to compete with coal or other forms of power. I would impress on the Minister that the many millions that would be sunk in the scheme and which, presumably, would be borrowed on the security of the State, would be lost, and would perhaps shake our credit to its foundations if the points mentioned were not appreciated.

I desire to reply to one or two points of detail raised by various speakers. Deputy Johnson spoke as to whether consideration had been given to the Erne and the falls around Ballyshannon. I cannot at this moment say that that particular project has been examined in any detail, and that it has been reported on, but I know it was present to the minds of the experts, because I had a talk with Herr Schulz about it. I cannot pretend to remember what he stated to me on that point, but the vague rememberance I have is that it was to be ruled out in consideration of the Shannon scheme, but if it were all Ireland we were considering, it would be the second river to be developed, and it would rank higher than the Liffey as an adjunct to the Shannon. I do not state that with any show of authority, and I will bear contradiction on the point afterwards, but it is a vague memory I have of the statement made in regard to the Erne. As to the point made regarding the binding nature of the estimate of .53 delivered in Dublin, I do not think that that can be accounted as binding. That is the expert calculation arrived at on the Siemens scheme. The Siemens people were asked to present binding estimates for the constructional works, development of the canal, erection of turbines, transmission system, and so forth. There are in this book costs which are ready almost to be put out to tender.

The Minister is aware that the statement included prices at which power can be delivered to the cities, towns, and everywhere it is to be utilised. I take it that this part of the report is in answer to that question.

I read it in this way. You will make binding estimates as to the costs. Then you will report on the price at which delivery can be made to the towns and cities and other places. The binding estimates are merely as to cost. The report governs the rest of that sentence.

Can the Minister state on what total output that price .53, to the city of Dublin, is based, because that would answer the question completely.

That would not answer the question completely. The question I have been asked is as to whether .53 is binding. My answer to Deputy Figgis might show that .53 is a reliable or unreliable estimate, but it would not take away from the validity of the answer I gave to Deputy Johnson. It is based on a consumption of 150 million units, but on the other side the huge costs of all the great constructional works I have spoken of include a complete network for the whole country. These 100 k.v., 35 k.v. and 10 k.v. lines bring power to every town and village with over 500 population. If the consumption is not there, obviously the transmission will not be there. It is not intended under this scheme to proceed with those transforming pole stations for these towns and villages which do not require power. Consequently, if there is not going to be that consumption, so much of the cost will be cut out. It will mean less consumption, so that the consumption will not approach anythink like 150 million units. Then the cost to Dublin, the largest consumer, will be appreciably increased. The scheme is not based, nor do the experts consider it proper to base any scheme, on the present-day conditions, which they regard as very backward and technically very much lacking in proper management.

The Minister will appreciate the point that so far as any comparison between the Liffey and the Shannon schemes as affecting Dublin is concerned, it is almost a critical point as to whether the Shannon scheme is to supply Dublin for the first ten or fifteen years at a lower price than the Liffey scheme.

I agree that it is a point to be considered, but that it is a turning point I can not agree. Apart from the fact that the experts say that given a certain consumption it is cheaper to supply Dublin from the Shannon than from the Liffey, and apart from that, take it that the current can be supplied cheaper to Dublin from the Liffey than from the Shannon, you have to embark on other sets of considerations, and you get to the other consideration, namely, are you going to develop a river which can supply Dublin only in part, and can supply nothing beyond Dublin, and leave the rest of the country to look after itself, knowing that by doing that you take away all chance of the Shannon development for possibly two generations until the demand for power in the rest of the country develops to the point that you can entirely neglect the present chief consumer, namely, Dublin. So that though I do agree with Deputy Johnson and Deputy Figgis, that the particular estimate of .53 is entirely decisive as between the Shannon and the Liffey, I do not agree that, if it is not a fact, automatically the Liffey takes precedence of the Shannon.

Does the Minister think that the report indicates any possibility that within four years of the period of the completion of this scheme it would be really a practical proposition to expect 150 million units to be generated?

On that point I had not merely the benefit of reading the experts' report, but of having a conversation with them. Their warning was this. If we decide to go ahead with the small partial development recommended, taking that it will take a period of three years to build it, we should proceed with such an item as the canal, which will be applicable not merely to a partial but a full development, and we should leave such things as power houses, of which a partial development would require three, and a full development, six turbines, to the end, because it is their opinion that during the three years in which the scheme is being built, there will be such demand that we would be forced to contemplate not a partial but a full development. That is their judgment on the matter.

The crucial thing in connection with the point Deputy Johnson was raising was not whether it would be cheaper immediately from Dublin or the Shannon, but whether the Shannon could supply cheaper than it could be got from other sources at present.

That, being a lesser matter than the Liffey, was included in the general comparison I made with the Liffey. The experts' opinion is that while they say it is a question whether with the development of the Shannon we should add on to it for the Liffey a steam station. I think they have very little doubt that if it were a question of supplying Dublin alone it would be better and cheaper to develop the Liffey than proceed with the existing plan. Therefore, when arguing between the Shannon and the Liffey I included the lesser with the greater.

Deputy Johnson raised two matters which I think are somewhat joined. He asked would the progress be by Private Bill procedure, and would Siemen's scheme be subject to the same type of expert examination as the Liffey scheme. Without any disrespect to the Private Bill Committee, I think the Shannon scheme as such has had more expert examination than any Liffey project has yet stood. I think the experts specially selected for the purpose and not laymen, were men technically up in these matters, and conversant all their professional lives with the details of the working of State systems. Two are technical experts in the matter of electrification, and I think that they as a tribunal are much more expert than any Private Bill Committee can possibly be. He also asked would this, if approved, proceed on the basis of a private venture or a national venture, meaning national in the sense that it would be financed by the nation, and that the financial return would come to the nation instead of to private promoters.

That remains for decision, and the answer to the previous question would depend on this decision. If it is to be allowed to develop by way of private venture, then I think automatically any legislation in connection with it would have to proceed by way of Private Bill legislation, but if it be done as a national scheme, and taken up as a State service, or be financially controlled in some way by the Government, then legislation would be regarded as public, and might not have to go through the ordinary channel of Private Bill legislation.

These are matters for determination, but one thing I would say is, though I cannot say that it is beyond all possibility of being decided in the other way, I have never heard it contemplated that if it were at all possible to have this scheme financed as a State concern, that there was any consideration of having it financed by private venture, and that certainly only in the last resort, and I do not think it at all probable, without there being allowances, that it would be financed as a German concern. So that all the talk there has been since the appearance of the White Paper about a German economic stranglehold, presumably through German financial control, of this scheme has no foundation in fact, and it is something that has never been contemplated. The State may be reduced to the point where there will be no other way of doing it, but we are not at that point, and I do not think we are ever likely to come to that point. Deputy Figgis raised the point, what would the price be if we contemplated a consumption of only 35 million units. On that I can only answer that the experts did not contemplate the probability of there being a demand of only 35 million units.

What I did happen to say was 48 million units. What I meant was, we have got to start where we are now.

Provision I think has been made. The Deputy will understand that provision has been made by way of an addition to the capital, and the likelihood of there being no return in revenue out of capital during the building up period of four or five years—that cuts out one item. The Deputy must realise that it was quite unfair to the scheme to ask to take your capital cost, and estimate it on the basis of the great constructional works I have spoken of, and also take it that you are only going to supply Dublin and a few places outside, and state a price.

You have to look a little bit ahead during the three years in which the scheme will be constructed. There will be plenty of opportunity of seeing what is likely to be the demand at the end of three years, and the scheme can be regulated accordingly. This is not to be taken on the basis of the .53 figure arrived at for Dublin, which is based on a scheme to supply Dublin alone, and has no regard for the future. It is a scheme which involves in that capital expenditure the amount of cost which should be put down to the full development of the Shannon. This can be better discussed when the details of the report are made known.

It has been put to me that this report should be made available. I am informed the cost of production of this volume is estimated at about £500, but as the type is set it might be possible to get copies produced more cheaply. I was looking forward to the time when the fullest details of the scheme should be published. I have here a portion of the scheme without the tremendous detail with regard to cost, and the minute details of the cost, which the larger volume contains. It might be possible to make a volume such as this available for Deputies quite soon, but how far I could proceed with the production of such a book without the approval of the Dáil I cannot say. It would be possible, however, in some way or other to make the details more widely known. There is one objection to it. The scheme has been modified, but the modifications are not any essential points of the scheme, but there are modifications. This is the original scheme, and consequently I would have to get the worked out modifications. They are not yet in my hands, but they are in the hands of the experts, and I will consider the publication of some portion, at any rate, of the details of the scheme. I think there is a certain amount of very technical electrical details which would not be of much interest, certainly not to many of the Deputies, and we could start off with some smaller production than the complete volume. That, however, can be attended to.

My original suggestion was that the original report from Siemens and Schuckert with the expert report on that scheme should be made available, so that we could see the original scheme and the modifications suggested by the experts.

The experts have not made a report on the scheme after modifications have been made, but on this larger report.

Perhaps Siemens would arrange to supply a number of copies at a low price?

I think other copies are on their way here, but the number is small, and not sufficient to supply the Deputies. I could make them available in the Members' room. The Report, of course, would have to be published in full detail, but I have explained the situation with regard to it. The only portion I have in my hands now is the English version authenticated by experts.

I suggest that the reproduction of 150 copies of that book from stereo would not cost £150.

I must submit that to the expert examination of Mesrs. Siemens. Deputy Hewat raised one point and, if I were to deal with it, it might be alleged that I wanted to be controversial. He said that the White Paper was never discussed in this House. I agree, but there was room given for discussion of it. Certain advances on foot of the White Paper were held back definitely awaiting some discussion being initiated in the Dáil on the White Paper itself. It was only when a certain period of time had elapsed, and no discussion in the Dáil had taken place, that a certain advance was made on foot of the White Paper.

The whole White Paper is based on the agreement already arrived at. It would have been difficult to give an opportunity to the House to discuss a matter which already had been signed and sealed by the Government.

I am glad to find that Deputy Hewat holds himself precluded from discussing it now, and that we can regard it as a fait accompli.

I think we may drop the subject, as we would only get into a controversy about it.

I think we could also drop the point as to costs, because I have already dealt with it in answer to a question put by Deputy Figgis. I stated the figure to be .53d. for Dublin. Deputy Hewat said it would, of course, be possible to scale down your price to the big consumer, and thereby overcharge other consumers. I do not purport to quote the exact words the Deputy used, but, in effect, that is what his argument came to. Remember what has been stated in the conclusions to the report, that while only charging .53d. to the largest consumer, Dublin, it will still be possible to provide all the towns and villages of over 500 of a population with power at a price which is appreciably lower than could be obtained in these towns from a town plant.

I suggest to the Minister that is a very vague description of price.

It is not to the four experts, but it may be a vague description of price to people in this country who only know what electricity is costing them in Killarney, or in other places, where the cost is excessive. The four experts, who know exactly what a modern, up-to-date, well-equipped and properly run individual town plant should cost, make the statement that you can deliver at .53d. in Dublin, and at the same time deliver to consumers in towns and villages at a cost within that.

That would be very conclusive if a certain town, representative of towns in the Saorstát, was taken, and it was shown that current could be supplied at a certain figure, and that you had already brought down prices. In Dublin they put down a certain price, a lump sum, but travelling from that it does not give you a comparison of prices with some other towns within the area.

I desire to keep away from any comparison with towns in the Saorstát, because tables that I may be in a position to produce, if there is any further discussion on this, will show how towns in the Saorstát have been treated. To say the least of it, they have been very badly treated in the matter of electricity. If I were to say that while charging .53d. for such delivery in bulk to Dublin, it would be possible to undercut the present suppliers of electricity to Free State towns, it would not be appreciating the scheme properly; it would be really a condemnation of the scheme if it was only able to do that.

Deputy Thrift and Deputy Baxter struck a note as to the further development that seems to be rendered possible by the statement made here to-night. While I tried to be as lacking almost in enthusiasm as it was possible to be after reading certain details of the scheme, and after reading the report, I was deliberately trying to choke down enthusiasm on the point because I thought it was better to state as objectively as possible what were the details of the scheme, and what was the opinion of the experts on it. A point has been raised, and without wishing to get into any state of exultation over what the scheme means, I would say this, that I agree with Deputy Baxter completely that the project outlined here to-night is probably the most important thing that has happened for this State since its beginning.

I would put it one way, and one way only: that just as there was political freedom achieved a certain number of years ago, if this scheme be carried out we have got to a point where economic freedom, without which political freedom matters very little, may be brought appreciably nearer. I do think that one's mind must naturally go back to a man like Arthur Griffith on a night like this. Thinking of his writings, his enthusiasm and his energy as to the extent to which the natural resources of the country could be developed for the good of the country—thinking of him and reading this—I think you must arrive at the conclusion that there is a definite chance here at last of utilising one of the great natural resources of the country for the good of the people of the country.

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