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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 19 Dec 1924

Vol. 9 No. 27

THE SHANNON POWER SCHEME. - WICKLOW LABOUR DISPUTE.

I gave the Minister for Justice notice that I would raise on the adjournment a question relating to the method of dispersing crowds by the Gárda Síochána in Wicklow. This is a matter of very great importance and it is a matter that must be raised now, especially in view of the fact that we are adjourning for several weeks. Its importance arises from this: That if no notice is taken of the action of the police in that respect it will be taken as a headline for the police in other parts of the country as well as in that part of the country, doing, what I want to urge, is decidedly illegal and decidedly beyond the scope and authority of any police force in this country. I am not going to deal with the issue that has been raised in the town of Wicklow—a dispute between employers and employed, between union and union, or between persons who are arrested and the State. But I want to raise a question of the instructions that have been given to the police and the method of carrying out those instructions.

It is made quite clear to me after close examination of different people that what occurred on Monday morning last in the town of Wicklow was this: That on the quays had assembled 60 or 70 men who were seeking work at the docks and were members of a certain trade union. A dispute between these men and other men, and between these men and the employers, had unquestionably, and without the slightest doubt whatever, taken place. It had been a matter of consultation and a proposal to hold a conference was then under consideration. The police superintendent took on himself the duty of judging whether there was a trade dispute or not and he decided that there was no trade dispute, and therefore he would not allow any pickets on the quays. Having declared that he would allow no pickets he took it upon himself, also, not as one would imagine, to arrest and charge in the courts the offenders against the law as he conceived it to be, but he took the law into his own hands and ordered a baton charge to disperse the crowd.

The persons in charge of the men on the occasion referred to had informed the police superintendent that there was a trade dispute, and there was no one better able to say that than those men. They informed the police superintendent that they were proposing to appoint a picket. They informed the police superintendent that if he said the pickets were disobeying the law it was his duty to arrest them, and if they were replaced by other pickets it would be his duty to arrest the other pickets. All that was stated clearly to the superintendent of the police, but he believed that he was not only an Executive officer but judge and jury as well, and he decided that there was no trade dispute and that no picket would be allowed and the way he prevented the pickets was to disperse the crowd by a baton charge.

It is clear from the evidence which has been made known to me, that there was no warning given that a baton charge would take place, that there was no attempt to disperse the crowd except by a baton charge, and the effect of the baton charge was that a considerable number of men were severely mauled and some had to be treated in hospital. There is further evidence that, as an appendix, shall I say, to the morning trouble certain members of the Civic Guard were looking for trouble in the town during the evening, and took it upon themselves to use their batons in respect of people standing at the corners of streets and at their own doors, but I want to confine my attention to the action of the police superintendent in deciding upon his own authority that there was no trade dispute, and deciding also that there being no trade dispute his business was to disperse the crowd by a baton charge. Now, the matter that is raised is one that has given a great deal of trouble to the authorities of this country and in Great Britain for a good many years. It is one that is very closely associated with the action of military in civil disturbances.

I want to say that if the police are going to assume the right to use batons as the first method of action when they wish to disperse a crowd, then you are practically telling the military forces, in similar circumstances, to fire as their first method of using the weapon that is at their command. I say that the police in this country will need to be warned if they have not already been warned that the baton is not to be used as a weapon of offence, and is not to be used as an offensive weapon for the purpose of dispersing a crowd. There is no evidence so far as I can gather that there was any offence on the part of the crowd. There is no evidence that the crowd had been warned to disperse. The evidence that I have had placed before me is to the effect that certain men were being picked out of the crowd for the purpose of putting them forwards as pickets, and it was at that moment that the charge of the police took place. If that kind of action is to be overlooked, we are likely to see a great deal of ill-will generated as between the Civic Guards and the public. We are all of us anxious that that force should become a very popular force. We are all anxious that it shall become a peace protective force. But if the Civic Guard are going to take upon themselves the function of protecting citizens by charging them with batons, simply to enforce the Superintendent's view of the duties of a crowd, and his view of what the law is, then we are going to be far away from the hope that the Gardá will become a popular, peace-protective force.

I am avoiding the question that has been raised in the courts, and I have no doubt it will be thoroughly examined there. But I think that I must say that the method adopted by the officer in charge of the police seemed to have been deliberately provocative, inasmuch as he was using language in respect of trade union officials in the town which clearly shows that he was taking upon himself certain duties as judge, not merely of the law, but of the personal character of persons concerned, and of their moral conduct. I think it is quite clear that a distinct personal prejudice was the preliminary to the baton charge by ten or twelve Guards. I think that the matter must be brought to the notice of the Minister, if for nothing else but to warn him that conduct of that kind is going to lead to unpopularity, and, shall I say, even to enmity as between the citizens and the Guards. I hope that something will be the outcome of this matter, and that raising it here to-night will prevent the possibility of any development of that kind in other parts of the country, where the Guards will take upon themselves the duties of judges and executioners all at the same time.

I wish to say in the opening of my statement that we have no disputes between any Unions in Wicklow. We have only one Union in Wicklow. We had a dispute with the employers. We had an arrangement there during the past three years that the Union would supply the men. Then the employers notified us that they would employ the men themselves. We had a conference with the employers, and, after three of their members had arranged to meet, they got together again and they refused to meet the Union. We hold there was a trade dispute, and I am going to make a statement here which the Superintendent made to me, but which, I am sure, has not the approval of the Minister for Justice or of General O'Duffy. I can assure the Minister that the action of the Superintendent and the Guards in Wicklow has done more for another political Party than 100 meetings could do for them. I warned the Superintendent that morning after he threatened me. I will read out here the language he used to me, and it can be corroborated by 100 people who have no connection with Trade Unions whatsoever. I want to bring before the Minister the particulars of the murderous, uncalled for and brutal attack made by the Guards on defenceless people, including old women. At 9 o'clock the Superintendent of the Guard arrived when there were about 60 members of the Union present.

We had already informed the employers we would have a certain number of our members present in view of certain action which had taken place the previous week when our members were threatened to be thrown into the river, and when Organiser Metcalfe was threatened by members belonging to another organisation. The employers told me over their 'phone that they were threatened and intimidated by men coming in to their place sticking their hands in their pockets in a threatening attitude and demanding work. I told the employers that on the next day we would have men down there that would prevent anything like that. I told them that if these men put their hands in their pockets we would have our men there; that we would take these men, and if they had revolvers on them we would hand them over to the Guards, and that there need be no fear on the part of the employers of being intimidated by these men. Now, I am going to prove that the Civic Guards in Wicklow have taken sides, actuated personally against myself because I have spoken my mind regardless of the consequences, and of what may happen to me personally.

I know that the Minister for Justice has received certain statements from the Guards, and I am going to prove that these statements are only one side of the story, and that the Guards have not given the right information. The Superintendent threatened to shoot me and to throw me into the river before any dispute took place on the quay. The Superintendent's language to me was that I should be shot and thrown into the river, and he used other language which I can prove. I can prove too that I have a cleaner record than some of the men associated with him. And, probably, if his record and mine were compared I would come out with a cleaner record than the Superintendent himself, as regards my moral life. The Superintendent seemed by his attitude the whole morning to take up one particular side, and that was the side in opposition to me. I warned the Superintendent that he was playing into the hands of a certain political party, and I warned him that in doing so he might turn the wishes and feelings of the people against himself and the Government. But he did not mind. He was lord and master there, high judge and executioner and everything else. He said that he was the man in charge of Wicklow and that he was the man to decide what was right. Nobody else had a right to express an opinion that differed from his.

I am going to read a statement that can be corroborated by a number of persons who were present that morning, and to tell you the language that the Superintendent used in the presence of these persons. It was about nine o'clock when the Superintendent stated that I should be shot and thrown into the river, that I was a blackguard and a bowsie, and that I caused a lot of disturbance. I replied, pointing out that if I wanted to cause disturbance I could cause a lot of trouble. I told him that our men were employed at Fitzgerald's that they had been working on the boats. He then sent for Mr. Fitzgerald and after some time Mr. Fitzgerald arrived. Then Superintendent Meehan came over to where Metcalfe, Conroy, the Secretary and I were and said that Fitzgerald had arrived and asked me to come over there to the office. I replied that I was not going into any employer's office until sent for. He stated: "Mr. Fitzgerald has told me to tell you he wanted you." After this the Superintendent went into the office, and I refused to discuss matters in the presence of the police. Then the Superintendent came out, and immediately we went into the office to discuss the matter. The next thing was that he came into the office along with two other men who were not Gárda. We then went into Fitzgerald's office and the Superintendent followed. Mr. Conroy asked Mr. Fitzgerald did he employ those men and he replied "no." I then said to the Superintendent: "You see you have been entirely wrong in saying that Mr. Fitzgerald had employed these men and all that you have been saying this morning was not justified."

Melcalfe said: "Those other men could take possession of a boat and could go to work before they were sanctioned. You hear now, Superintendent, what Mr. Fitzgerald said?" After some time Mr. Fitzgerald offered that three of our men should work with two of the other men, but this we refused. Mr. William Clarke then came up. He is a partner with Mr. Fitzgerald. He said he employed the men on Sunday night. Metcalfe and myself appealed to Mr. Fitzgerald for a conference and he replied: "If Mr. Darcy agrees, we will agree too"; but he would not do so on his own. The Superintendent said that an employer could employ any men he liked, and there were no trade disputes. Metcalfe replied that there was a trade dispute, as it was the custom of employers to send to the Union for any men they required within the past three years. Now, no conference had been called to alter the arrangements, and there should have been a conference called to alter it one way or the other.

We were out for peace, and it was suggested that a conference should be held so as to avoid trouble. The Superintendent said that the employers had a right to employ whom they liked, and it was not a matter for the Union. I appealed to Mr. Clarke to have a conference. Kinsella, who represented another Union, asked if his Union would be represented, and I replied that the employers had only an agreement with the Transport Union, and, therefore, the question of his Union did not arise. The Superintendent said: "Decide this question once and for all; decide it one way or another, as I am not going to keep my men here all day. Some of them have not even had breakfast." He said he had been speaking to two of our men, and that they were prepared to work. I replied: "They must not be members of the Transport Union, as over 120 men had decided not to work." Mr. Fitzgerald offered the names of the men employed, and I refused to accept them, as our men had decided what their attitude should be, and that we would get ready and place a picket outside Mr. Fitzgerald's office.

The Superintendent said he would arrest the picket, as he had decided there was no trade dispute. I said we would put on a second picket, and he said he would arrest them, too. In the presence of Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr. Clarke, and four other men, I said: "The Judge will decide, not you, whether it is or not a trade dispute." He said: "I have decided for myself." I said: "You are not the Judge; there are higher people than you"; and he said: "I will decide the question now that there is no trade dispute." I then said: "You can arrest the pickets." I held it was a legal question, and not a matter for him. The Superintendent stated that if necessary he would shove the people into the river. I replied, in the presence of the four parties, that I would not like to see my greatest enemy being shoved into the river, and if it was necessary I would try and see that no person would be thrown in. While we were in the office with the Superintendent, several Civic Guards came in, and they took off their coats and left them on the counter. One left his stick there. They had been lined outside Fitzgerald's office. When we came out of the office I told the employers that I was going to put on the pickets, and leave it to the Superintendent to arrest them.

Outside the office I ordered the secretary to call two members of the Union off the boat, and one came. We decided to place those pickets outside, and then call the remainder of the men for a meeting. Just at that time the baton charge took place. I was struck several times, and I am certain it is not the wish of the Civic Guard Superintendent or the wish of two or three of the men that I am alive here to-night. They made several attempts to smash me on the head, but I have been in other disputes and other baton charges. I closed in with them, and I did not run away. I was the last man to be carried off. The Civic Guards in Wicklow have acted worse than ever the Black and Tans did in any other portion of Ireland. They got no justification for what they did. There were no stones thrown. I believe some stones were thrown while the baton charge was on, but previous to that there was no provocation, and there were no insulting remarks made to the Guards.

As far as I can judge, it was purely a personal attack, and it was ordered by the Superintendent as a sort of reprisal on me for other things. He ordered his men to carry out that baton charge. There was an old man 73 years of age, and he was struck with an iron bar. Organiser Metcalfe was left unconscious. He is still in hospital. Robt. Naughten was struck on the head; Conroy got a head wound, and Doyle a shoulder wound. In the evening two prisoners were removed from the barracks, and an old woman of 70 years of age, who went to see her boy off, was assaulted by a Civic Guard. The man was already hurt during the day. John Darcy was struck in the face with a baton. When the Civic Guard came back he asked him: "Why did you do that?" He improved on the Black-and-Tan style, and he said: "Two of our men got hurt to-day." At night time, when men were standing some distance down in the street from their own houses, eight Guards came with batons drawn and attacked them.

One old man was struck three times on the shoulder. When they were about to strike him again, he said: "I know you now," and at that the Guard did the same mischief as was done to other people. The Superintendent may hold that there were a great many people there. There were about fifty or sixty. He says in his deposition that there were a great deal more. The position was just as we told him. We were going to place pickets there. He asked me why we had the men there, and I said it was for protection. He said: "We are out to protect the people." Conroy made the statement: "You were not here to protect us last week when we were attacked, and we had to come out because other men bullied the employer and intimidated him in order to get work." He said: "We cannot be everywhere." Conroy said: "You are everywhere on the other side, but never, when you are wanted, with us."

Through the action of the Civic Guard a serious situation has been caused. I disagree with other members of the Labour Party, and I hold that this is a most serious question. I ask for no favour or mercy on my own behalf. I am well able to fight out this issue in another way. I do hold that when unemployed men are fighting to maintain their rights, it is not fair that the Guard should come and take sides and, without the slightest warning, murder unarmed men. I say the time has come for the workers of Ireland and all the men on strike to be ready to defend themselves and not to place themselves at the mercy of other men. I thought that once England had left the country, and once we had done away with the Black-and-Tans, that we would be safe in our homes and safe to walk the streets. In any other part of Ireland the people may be safe, but we are not so now in Wicklow.

The workers will have to recollect all this, as I told them at the public meeting the other night. The Guards have made a mistake. They played into the hands of a certain political body. I disagreed with that political body. I accepted the Treaty, and came here believing that through the Treaty we would be able to secure some good for the workers. I never believed in Labour taking part in politics without any return for their work or any redress for their grievances. I did not strike him on the head. If he believed that we were going to be batoned on the slightest excuse by men who are taking sides and supporting the capitalists in Wicklow, I am certain that that is not a policy that the Minister is in sympathy with. The Minister may have only one side of the question. He cannot be everywhere. It was not the wish of the Guards that I should be here to-night to tell the full truth. We have made our statements; we defy contradiction; and in another place we will be able to explain a lot more of our defence, which I have not given away, so that the Civic Guards may not know about it when the trial comes on.

I would say to the workers outside, when there are strikes on, to remember the way the workers of Wicklow were treated, and to remember the way other men were treated. I say it will be up to the workers' representatives in the Dáil to shake off a little of their gentlemanliness and to take a different attitude in this House if they are going to win for the workers the rights that we believe they are entitled to. They must also take up a different attitude outside because they are representing the workers; they are representing the people who are unemployed at present. There is no use in coming here if we are going to be treated with contempt; if the representatives of the workers are to be called murderers and blackguards, and attacked in this way. The workers' representatives, no matter where they may be, should not be afraid to speak out their minds, regardless of whom it may give offence to. That is the position. The workers' representatives will have to take up an obstructive policy—a different policy to that which has been adopted. The workers of Ireland in congress assembled will have to see that the opposition will be here. There is no use in a small minority, a small vote, because the Government, as I know, are backed up by a secret organisation who are trying to work the Treaty for the benefit of England against Irish workers.

I am very glad that Deputy Johnson saw fit to raise this matter this evening. It is an important matter. I am at least as impressed with its importance as either Deputy Johnson or Deputy Everett. This incident took place on Monday morning last between 8 and 11 a.m. On that day, and for two days afterwards, I was absent in England. But the officials of my Department took very prompt and very proper action on hearing of the occurrence in Wicklow. The Superintendent who was in charge on the occasion was asked to come up to Dublin, and he was interviewed by the Secretary of my Department and by the Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána with regard to the whole occurrence. On that interview, and on the report of the Superintendent, and on the report of the Chief Superintendent of the area, I have come to the conclusion that the Gárda on that occasion acted in a commendable manner, acted most properly, acted with a great deal of restraint.

Does the Minister say it is commendable to attack men, women and children without any warning? Is that the interpretation we are to put on it?

Will the Deputy allow me to finish? I did not interrupt either himself or Deputy Johnson. As I was saying, I have come to the conclusion, on the information which is available for me, that on the occasion under review the Gárda behaved in a most commendable manner: with restraint, with discretion, and, finally, with the necessary determination in vindication of the law, and in vindication of rights which Deputy Johnson and Deputy Everett should be as anxious to see vindicated as I am. I propose to read to the Dáil the reports which I have on this incident. I do not propose to deal in any brief or hurried way with it. It is a matter of very considerable public importance. It is not a mere isolated incident. It raises issues which have arisen elsewhere, which are likely to arise elsewhere, and on which we had all better clear our minds once and for all. Deputy Johnson said that he did not propose to deal at all with the issue that had arisen in Wicklow: that he proposed to confine himself strictly to the question of the method that had been adopted by the Gárda to deal with the situation—the method which they adopted to disperse the crowd. I propose to deal with the issue, unlike Deputy Johnson.

I refrained because I realised it was before the Courts. I recognised that there was a certain delicacy in dealing with the matter, which is sub judice.

I want to put this to Deputies: that it does not lie within the right of any man, whether a trade unionist or a non-trade unionist to prevent any other man, who is willing to work, from working. I lay that down as a proposition. I would hope that it is one that would meet with general agreement. Having laid down that proposition I propose to read the reports on this question—the report in the first instance from Chief Superintendent Leahy, and subsequently the report of the Superintendent who was in charge in Wicklow on last Monday morning. The Chief Superintendent writes on the 15th December to the Commissioner:—

"In continuation of telephonic communication made to you this morning by Superintendent Meehan in connection with the above matter, I beg to report as follows:—

"On Saturday last, the 13th inst., Mr. Everett, T.D., and from 100 to 150 of his followers in the I.T. & G.W.U. went round the town of Wicklow and called on all the coal merchants—who also happen to be shipowners—and told them that the Transport Workers would have to be employed exclusively in discharging their coal boats to the exclusion of the members of Larkin's union. The coal merchants refused to agree to this and said that they would adhere to the agreement come to by the Employers' Federation to employ an equal number of men from both unions when boats had to be discharged. Mr. Everett thereupon threatened to picket the coal merchants and prevent any man from working for them. Mr. Everett further stated that he would picket boats unloading on Monday (15th inst.). Superintendent Meehan personally cautioned Mr. Everett but the latter took no notice.

"On to-day (Monday) three coal boats, owned respectively by Mr. Darcy, Mr. Hyland and Mr. Fitzgerald (Wicklow Corn Co.) were to be unloaded. Men belonging to Larkin's union were unloading the boats belonging to Mr. Darcy and Mr. Hyland because the Transport workers would not work on them with Larkin's men. In the case of the boat belonging to Mr. Fitzgerald (Wicklow Corn Co.) it was arranged that half the gang working her should come from the Transport Workers and the other half from Larkin's union. The whole gang required to unload the boat was only five men, and the rival unions tossed for the odd place, which was won by Larkin's Union. There were, therefore, two Transport Workers and three of Larkin's men unloading the boat in question. This gang had actually started work in compliance with the agreement come to by the Employers' Federation to employ half from each union.

"At this stage Mr. Everett, T.D., arrived—about 8.5 a.m. this morning—and prevented the two Transport men from working. He was accompanied by about 100 of his followers, the majority wearing the badge of their Union. Mr. Everett at once assumed a truculent attitude, and was cautioned by the Sergeant in charge of the party of Gardaí who were present. This was the position when the Superintendent arrived on the scene at 9 a.m. to-day. The Superintendent quickly ascertained that Mr. Fitzgerald had employed three of Larkin's men and two of the Transport Union men, and that the latter were willing to work but would not be allowed to do so by Mr. Everett. The latter announced that if unloading proceeded the Transport Union would picket and stop the unloading. After a careful survey the Superintendent satisfied himself that there was no trade dispute in question and that the presence of Mr. Everett and his followers was for the purpose of intimidation and nothing else.

"The five men on the boat attempted to resume work, but Mr. Everett rallied his men and would not allow them. Mr. Everett informed the Superintendent that the whole of his 100 or so followers were pickets, and that they intended picketing the five men who attempted to work." (Mr. Everett: That is false.) "At this point the Superintendent told Mr. Everett's followers that there was no trade dispute and that they should not be congregated where they were. He gave them every chance to go away peacefully, and warned them that the consequences might be serious if they persisted in remaining. Only a few went away, as Mr. Everett called on them to stand firm and not to move. The Gárdaí (ten men) were standing a few yards away. The Superintendent formed them into a line and marched them nearer to the crowd, at the same time cautioning the crowd in a loud voice that he intended to move them off. The Gárdaí had begun to move on the crowd when the latter commenced to throw lumps of coal, stones, etc." (Mr. Everett: Lies.) "Seeing the position that the ten Gardaí were in, the Superintendent ordered a baton charge. Mr. Everett and his followers were all this time offering resistance. After a few minutes the crowd was cleared off, and the Superintendent blew his whistle and withdrew his men. Two men, named John and Patrick Doyle, were actually caught throwing stones and were arrested, and are now waiting to be brought before a Justice. One of these men struck Gárda Breheny, injuring his left jaw. Several others of the Gárdaí had narrow escapes from flying stones and missiles.

"After consultation to-day it has been decided to arrest the following, who are either leaders or were prominent in the stone throwing. (Then six names are given.)

"I visited the scene of the whole incident at the docks with the Superintendent, and after a careful survey of all the facts I am satisfied that the Superintendent could not have acted otherwise than he did. Everything now appears to be normal in the town, except that Mr. Everett and his followers are endeavouring to create propaganda against the action taken by the Gárdaí."

I have here a report from the Superintendent in charge:—

"I beg to report that a coal boat belonging to the Wicklow Corn Company was being unloaded at the South Quays, Wicklow, by a gang of five men at 8 a.m. on the 15th inst., when James Everett, T.D., arrived on the scene with a crowd of about 100 men, almost all wearing the badge of the I.T. and G.W. Union. A gangway had been laid from the boat to the quays, and the men were wheeling a barrow of coal across the quays when the crowd got in front and stopped them. Mr. Everett put his foot against the barrow, and told them they would not be allowed to work. Sergeant McKenna and a few Gárdaí were on duty at the time, and cautioned Mr. Everett and the other men, but the caution was ignored. The crowd still held their ground, and used threats to the sergeant and his men, telling them it would take more than 200 Gárdaí to move them. This was the state of affairs when I arrived on the quays at 9 a.m. After ascertaining the facts from Sergeant McKenna, I went up to the crowd and cautioned them. I told them that this action was illegal, and cautioned them to move off (as there was no trade dispute). The sergeant and other Gárdaí commenced to take the names of those present, and Mr. Everett got up on the coal barrow and told the men to refuse their names, but the men gave them. I asked Mr. Everett to explain his action, and why he was there. He then told me that a gang of men belonging to the I.T. and G.W.U. had been employed to unload this boat, and that the other men had taken their jobs; but I had previously ascertained that the gang was a mixed one, composed of three men from Larkin's Union and two from the I.T. and G.W. Union, but this he again denied. I then sent a sergeant for Mr. Fitzgerald, General Secretary of the Corn Co., who had not yet arrived, and he informed me that the gang was composed of members of both unions. Mr. Everett said none of the men belonged to his union now, but admitted after some time that they were members of the Transport Union on Saturday, the 13th inst. I went to decide the matter, and the men informed me that they were still in the Irish Transport and G.W. Union.

"After a lengthy conference Mr. Fitzgerald decided to retain the men employed. Mr. Everett and his followers left the office and again addressed the men on the quays. I went on to the quays then and went up to this crowd and again cautioned them, telling them I was there to see that any man who wanted to work was permitted to do so. I told them to move on, as I was not going to tolerate mob law, but only about five left the crowd. I then moved a number of women and children away who were in the vicinity of the crowd and ordered the Gardaí to ‘fall in' in single rank facing the crowd. I again told the crowd that they were in a false position and that I would be compelled to move them, and that I would do so by force if necessary; but Mr. Everett called on them to remain firm, as they were required for picket duty. I then approached him again and asked him who were the pickets and what was their number, and he replied, ‘That is my business.'

"I next said: ‘Am I to take it that all this crowd is picketing'? He said, ‘Yes, they are.' I told him this was not a picket, but a mob, that they were not picketing peacefully, but had forcibly prevented five men from working, and that they had remained in massed formation from 8 a.m. and blocked the gangway, and that this was the last caution I would give them. It was now 11 o'clock. I ordered the Gardaí (ten in number) to advance and move on the crowd. On this being done the crowd became threatening, and Mr. Everett called on them to remain firm, and the crowd rushed towards us. I ordered the Gardaí to draw their batons, and immediately a number of missiles, including coal, stones and pieces of brick, were thrown at us from front and rere, and the situation became very dangerous. As I saw the possibility of the few Gardaí being hemmed in between the two stone-throwing crowds, I at once ordered the men to disperse the crowd in front, and gave the order ‘charge.' This was done, and the crowd still offered resistance and the stone-throwing continued, but in a few seconds the crowd was completely dispersed.

"I then blew my whistle and reassembled the Gardaí to deal with the crowd in our rear. This was chiefly composed of excited women headed by a lady who had rallied the women —seeing that the men had failed. Some of these had large stones in their hands. I again cautioned these women and told them that I did not like using force against women, but that I would do so if necessary, to save my men from further injury. I may mention that Gárda Breheny was hit with a large stone in the jaw and injured slightly but he followed the man who threw it and arrested him. His name is Joseph Doyle. Another man named Thomas Doyle was also arrested during the charge for stone throwing. The women on the quays went off at once and work was resumed in a quiet manner. The I.T. & G.W.U. men employed on the quays left their work and their places were at once filled by Larkin's men."

I think that about concludes his description of the incident. The rest is mostly comment rather than a description. As I say, on these reports and on the interview which responsible officers of my Department had with the Superintendent and the Commissioner of the Civic Guard, I have come to the conclusion that the Guards in Wicklow on last Monday morning behaved most properly.

Have you got the opinion of the people?

I want Deputies to recognise that no assembly headed by anyone, a T.D. of whatever party, is above the law or has the right to prevent men from working who want to work. It is necessary that Deputies should recognise that, and I would like to be clear as to whether that is simply accepted, accepted as freely by Deputy Johnson and Deputy Everett as it would be by any other party.

I hold I have a right to be with the men and to do peaceful picketing and I deny the right of the Government or their servants to prevent me.

Does the Deputy question this proposition that no man, no body of men, even a body of men headed by a T.D.——

Or a Minister.

Or a Minister, has a right to prevent other men from working who want to work.

I hold that the body of men, led by me to do peaceful picketing, had a perfect right to do that.

We have got to get down to this thing. Deputies should try to retain a little sense of humour and a little imagination, and it might be a help if the Deputy would reverse matters; if the Deputy would suppose for a moment, if he can so far strain his imagination, that certain members of his Union were in work and that certain members of a rival union came to them and said: "You have no right to work. Stop this work, you cannot work at this because——"

That was not the issue. The question was that the employers had broken their agreement. We went to picket the employers. We had no dispute with the men, and, in defiance of an order issued by a large number of the dockers, the employers wanted to strike off our members. One of them ceased work immediately and I had a perfect right to stop men claiming to be members of the Transport Union.

The Deputy had no right to stop any man from working, whatever union he belongs to, and he had better get a good tight hold of that, because, unless we can agree on fundamentals of that kind, we are not going to get anywhere on this discussion. It would simply mean that the Deputy challenges the law, and that he is going to make a law for himself.

Under the Trade Union Act of 1906, I have a perfect right.

The Deputy has no right by violence, by obstruction, to prevent any man working at any job, regardless of what union that man belongs to, and if he feels that because certain men had their names on the books of the Transport Union he had a right to go down and physically prevent these men from working, then he is laying down a very anarchical proposition, to prevent which, I consider that the Guards ought to use force to the utmost, to prevent which, if necessary, we would not merely be justified, but bound, to call in another force, with other weapons. I was surprised at certain things that Deputy Johnson said. He spoke of the desirability of the Guards being a popular force, and up to a point I agree. But the Guards must not win popularity at the expense of the law——

Hear, hear.

By a process of allowing the right of any citizen to be violated.

I assent to that.

I believed that the Deputy would agree with that proposition. Deputy Everett said that he remonstrated with them and told them that they were playing into the hands of a particular political Party.

Yes, because they were taking sides.

In other words. "Do not antagonise the 150 men standing behind me for the sake of these fellows."

That is not the point. The question is that we were not there breaking the law. We were attacked and abused by the Superintendent, threatened with being shot, threatened with being thrown into the river, all because certain men are going with lying statements to the police and using their bicycles throughout the country. More of it is going to come out. Let the law be administered fairly and we have no objection, but not all on one side, attacking members of my organisation.

I would be glad that it would all come out, but I would be glad, too, that we would be quite clear on first principles, and I am afraid we are not. I would be glad that we would be quite clear on this, that it did not lie in the right of Deputy Everett or in the right of any of Deputy Everett's followers or admirers, to prevent a particular five men from doing work which they wanted to do.

We have a right to picket, and for that we were batoned.

Let us see what picketing means. Had the Deputy a right to go with a mob of 100 or 150 men and prevent five men from working?

One hundred and fifty did not prevent them. There was a certain number there. The Superintendent seemed to be in with the employers. He went into the employers' office to discuss union business with the employers, and ordered us to do certain things. He told us to cease picketing. We told him to arrest the small picket we were putting on, and let a judge decide the question. He was the judge: he said he would decide it himself.

I say that every Deputy and every person who holds himself out as a Labour leader, legally or otherwise, should take a grind on what his rights are under the Trade Disputes Act, and should in particular take a grind on the limitations.

Grind some of your officials in the Government Departments.

On the limitations of peaceful picketing. Peaceful picketing has been given an extraordinary interpretation in Labour circles over the last couple of years, more particularly in Dublin, and peaceful picketing seems to mean anything from a black eye to a broken neck.

That has never happened in Wicklow. We had a number of strikes for the last few years, and nobody was ever insulted until the Civic Guard came along to murder the people for asserting their right to picket.

I want to make it clear that peaceful picketing does not involve black eyes or broken necks, and it does not even involve the physical prevention of men doing work which they are willing to do. One hundred men, or thereabouts—I will not quarrel with the Deputy over a dozen or a score—led by James Everett, T.D., attempted to prevent five men from doing work which they were willing to do, which they were engaged to do, and the local Superintendent——

An ex-R.I.C. man.

The local Superintendent, with ten Guards——

An ex-R.I.C. man.

Decided that it was not within the right of Mr. Everett and his 99 followers, or thereabouts, to prevent these five men from working, and they took the necessary, proper, highly commendable action. Deputy Johnson started his statement on this matter by stating that he raised this because of its importance, and because he profoundly hoped that it would not be a headline to other Guards, officers and men throughout the country. Now, in the most deliberate way, let me say that, from the information at my disposal, I hope that what happened at Wicklow on last Monday morning, the action of the Guards in Wicklow on Monday morning last, will be taken as a headline by the Guards, officers and men——

Does the Minister claim that it was the duty and the business of the Civic Guard to decide whether there is a trade dispute or not?

Does the Minister contend that the language alleged to have been used by the Superintendent with regard to a member of this House, or even any ordinary citizen, is language that should be taken as a headline by members of the Guard?

The Deputy knows that I am confining myself to the information officially available to me.

Is that not the whole matter that is in conflict? There are two sets of evidence, and the Minister is advising the Guards throughout the country to act upon a statement that is utterly in dispute. The whole question is involved in this, whether a Guard is capable and in duty bound to decide whether there is a trade dispute or not, and if he decides there is a trade dispute, that he will not allow picketing, independent of whether there is a big picket or a little picket, a violent or a peaceful one. A peaceful picket would not be allowed by the Guard because the Superintendent said there was not a trade dispute.

There is not merely a right but a duty on the part of the Guards to decide as to the limitations of peaceful picketing. Now, let us put this question of a trade dispute on one side; let us entirely grant the question of a trade dispute. If there were ten trade disputes in Wicklow on Monday morning last it did not give any hundred men a right to prevent any five men in Wicklow from working.

Nobody is asserting that. The Minister has practically admitted that the Superintendent of the Civic Guard had decided that there was not a trade dispute, and that, therefore, he would not allow a picket. It was not a question of peaceful picketing; it was not a question of one hundred men. It was a case of a picket that the Guard would not allow because the Superintendent said there was no trade dispute.

Assume for a moment that the statements in this report are true, does the Deputy suggest that if there was a trade dispute the men led by Deputy Everett were entitled to act as they are stated here to have acted? In other words, does he suggest that this question of the existence or non-existence of a trade dispute is pivotal or crucial to the question of the right, or the absence of right, on the part of the hundred men to prevent the five men working?

He even threatened to arrest these men to-day for picketing. He is a law to himself.

The Minister has asked me a definite question. I want to say this, that the pivotal question that I raised is the matter on which I want to have the Minister declare himself, because he has said that this is to be a headline throughout the country, that when the Civic Guard decide that there is no trade dispute they are going to refuse to allow a picket and they are going to disperse it by force.

No, sir. I say that if there were twenty trade disputes that particular assembly was an unlawful assembly, and it was not merely the right but the duty of the police to disperse it.

Does the Minister deny that the Superintendent made this statement before he went to disperse the crowd?

In the presence of two employers and four other men, when I challenged him to arrest the picket, he said: "I will arrest the picket." I said, "I will put on another," and he said, "I will arrest it also." I said, "It will come before a Judge to decide it," and he said, "I will decide myself; there is no trade dispute." He did not arrest them, but attempted to murder them. If I had run from him, too, I probably would be dead.

We will be able to get no distance if Deputy Everett will insist on interrupting. He has made seven or eight speeches already.

The Deputy will get an opportunity in another place of defending and justifying his action in Wicklow on last Monday morning.

I am not one bit afraid of the other place. I was often in it before. That will not frighten me.

The question is this: There is a responsibility on the police to see that no man who wants to work for a wage, or who wants to work for any consideration, is prevented from working. One hundred men tried on Monday morning last to prevent five men from working, and the Guard, in vindication of the right of these five men to continue working, found it necessary to disperse an unlawful assembly. They acted with restraint, certainly without haste, seeing that you had a static situation there from 8 o'clock in the morning until 11 o'clock, when the dispersal took place; they acted, as it appears from the information officially supplied to me, after repeated warnings, and finally they acted without any degree of violence other than was necessary to secure an eminently proper and desirable objective.

The Minister should not close his reply without dealing with the specific statement of Deputy Everett that the Superintendent called him a blackguard and a bowsie. If it is to go to the country that that was a headline for other Superintendents to adopt in any similar circumstances, it is going to be a very bad thing for the Guards.

That I should be shot and thrown into the river.

I cannot deal with complaints against the Guards in that fashion. I am not going simply to be the judge and jury on this question here and now.

You are not Superintendent Meehan.

If Deputy Everett wants to make a complaint against the Guards he knows the quarter in which it should be made.

I know what I got for making a complaint against one of them some months ago. I have been batoned as a result of it.

I certainly will look into any complaints he makes against any particular officer, or against the Guards generally.

They are like Freemasons; touch one and you touch them all. I have suffered for making a complaint.

If Deputy Davin wishes from me an expression of opinion as to whether or not it would be right for a Guard Superintendent, or any member of the Guard, to refer to Deputy Everett as a blackguard and a bowsie, that is a thing of which I certainly disapprove, and if it is established to my satisfaction that such language was used by an officer of the Civic Guard to Deputy Everett, I will certainly see that proper action is taken.

It was made in the presence of certain people. I do not worry about it myself, because the people of Wicklow can give me my character, not the Superintendent of the Civic Guards. What I objected to was that he threatened to shoot, and said I should be shot and thrown into the river.

Like Deputy Johnson, what I want to secure is, that any statement the Minister may make here to-night will not be taken as a vindication, in its entirety, of the action the Guards took on Monday last. The Minister for Justice states that he is basing his case on the official information supplied to him. I submit that he will find that even the Superintendent himself admitted a trade dispute existed, because in the course of his statement he said that the Transport Union men had left their work. He tried to make great play in his address with a term which he used various times by saying that Mr. Everett stopped certain men from work. If he were familiar with the phrase in the trade union movement, he would know that that means the calling out of men, and I submit that Mr. Everett had a perfect right to approach two members——

May I intervene? I might have used, perhaps, closer words. What I meant was that Mr. Everett and the crowd he was leading that morning physically prevented five men who wanted to work from working, and made it impossible for them, for over three hours, to work. It was only after three hours of that kind of obstruction that the Guards took the action that they did.

Mr. Everett approached two of his own out of those five men, and called them off in accordance with trade union rules and principles. There, immediately, a trade dispute started; and a superintendent of the Civic Guards has no right to determine for himself whether there is a trade dispute or not. He has the right to arrest certain people for picketing if he likes and to prove it in another place. The Minister has said that Mr. Everett had no right to take on himself to say as to whether there was a trade dispute or not and to remonstrate with the Guards. The Minister said the Guards acted commendably, that he was deligted with their action, and that he hoped in similar circumstances in other parts of the country that the Guards would do a similar thing.

That is an important and dangerous statement for a Minister to make in this House. He has received a report from the superintendent of the Guards responsible for the action which is being debated here to-night. He has not endeavoured, so far as we can find out from his statement, to get any independent views at all. It is a very important and serious thing for a man occupying the positions of Minister for Justice and Vice-President of this State to make a statement which would lead the Guards in the country to go around wildly, beating the heads of the men, women and children in the State. I do not think he should have made that statement until he was satisfied from some other source, besides the man concerned in it, and more especially as the matter is in the courts——

It is all right. That only affects the workers. They do not count.

I do not want to deal with the question except in the way that Deputy Johnson dealt with it. I do not for a moment suggest that a crowd of 100 men are right when they approach certain men and tell them that they should not work. They have a right to picket, and if the picket were too large I submit that the Civic Guard, if they wanted to preserve the peace of the district instead of remonstrating with Deputy Everett should have told him that they would agree to a picket of six or twelve men, and that he should withdraw the rest of the crowd. I believe Mr. Everett would be reasonable in the matter and would be only too glad to do so. But the Superintendent seemed to be looking for trouble all the morning. I do not think that the general body of the Guards in the country want that kind of work. It is only a highly-strung official that would be responsible for it. Surely we had enought of this work for the last five or six years. An officer in the position of Superintendent should be careful before he starts that kind of thing.

I do not think the Minister dealt with the point put forward by Deputy Johnson. We do not advocate mob law in any particular part of Ireland, or that a body of men should go round to the docks in any city or town and prevent men from working. As a matter of fact, the union for which Deputy Everett and I stand have acted the other way, to the knowledge of the Minister, and have taken certain action in order that certain people should be allowed to work when certain other people were using mob law against them.

The Deputy will agree that I did my utmost in Dublin to ensure that men who wanted to work would not be prevented by violence and intimidation from doing their work. Does the Deputy suggest that whereas I should take one line of action in Dublin that where the roles are reversed in another part I should take up another attitude? Does the Deputy suggest that having used all the resources of the State to vindicate the right of men here in Dublin who wished to work and defeat terrorists tactics on the part of members of another union, that, because the roles are reversed in some place down the country, a different policy and a different attitude should be taken up?

I do not suggest any such thing. If the Minister listened to what I said he would find that I did not. As far as I know, the Minister did not interfere in Dublin with picketing. It was only when certain members of an organisation were practically kicked and beaten to death that he interfered, but even then the police did not use batons.

Can the Deputy quote any case here in Dublin where, for a period of three hours, men who wanted to work were prevented from working? If we allowed such a situation to exist and had failed to use the police to end it, would the Deputy and his colleagues in the Dáil not have quite a lot to say about it?

Certainly we would, but we still deny the right of policemen to say whether or not there is a trade dispute.

I can quote an instance not only of three hours, but of three months, where the Government did not interfere. It was only when the Transport Union formed a bodyguard of its own that the members were allowed to work. The minute this question is raised in Wicklow we have a baton charge. I am as anxious for the peace of the country as anyone and I have helped the Guards in our own area. So far as the Guards down there are concerned, I can say that they are a splendid body of men. They have never raised any trouble and I hope they will not. What I object to—and it is Deputy Johnson's reason for bringing this on—is allowing a Superintendent of police to determine whether there is a trade dispute or not. If that is allowed, you may as well bring in a Bill to abolish peaceful picketing altogether. That is an important point, as far as we are concerned. We do not come forward here and condone what any man does, or any body of men who are not acting within the law. We are here to vindicate the law as well as the Minister, but we object to a Superintendent who is, perhaps, prejudiced against a certain individual deciding whether there is a trade dispute or not. He has other machinery for doing that and he should have availed of it before he batoned the men, women and children of Wicklow.

I have endeavoured, while in the position of responsibility which I hold, to see that there was impartial administration of the law throughout the country. I have, in season and out of season, impressed that on the police. The statements I made here to-night on this incident are based on official reports and on the examination of the Superintendent by the Secretary of my Department. I have attempted to lay down certain things here as first principles and I doubt myself whether they have been accepted uneqivocably. I have laid down that, so far as the State can help it, men must not be physically prevented from doing their work when they want to work——

We assent to that.

I agree.

As between one union and another, it is simply a question with us of vindicating the legal rights of individuals, regardless of what unions they belong to and any suggestion that Deputy Everett should be allowed to become the Jim Larkin of Wicklow——

I want to assert my right. I do not want to be referred to as the "Jim Larkin of Wicklow" or the Jim Larkin of Ireland. I hold that in our organisation we have more loyal men than Larkin. We have men who never ran out of the country when the fighting was on; unless it is the Freemason Organisation, which has a strong hold on the Government——

That any individual should be allowed to do in Wicklow what we have done our utmost to prevent members of another union doing here in Dublin, is something that we cannot consider. Remonstrances that the Guards will become unpopular or that we will play into the hands of some rival political party do not alter the case, and will not be allowed to affect the case.

There are a hundred of them in Wicklow, and they are not able to preserve the peace.

May I ask the Minister if he will give us an assurance that, in any proceedings that are brought in the courts, he will not allow the authorities to hide behind any technicality, but will allow the conduct of the police on that occasion to be thoroughly examined. Otherwise, we shall have to ask for a special inquiry.

I do not know what "technicality" the Deputy refers to. Would he please be more explicit?

I ask the Minister to undertake that there will be no hiding behind any legal technicalities to prevent full inquiry into the conduct of the police in the course of any legal proceedings.

What technicalities does the Deputy mean?

The lawyers will find the technicalities, if they want to avoid an examination of the conduct of the police. We have had certain statements laid before us which are in direct conflict with those which have been laid before the Minister. On the statements that have been laid before us, we believe that the police have grossly exceeded their duty. If these matters arise in the course of evidence in the courts, will the Minister instruct the State Solicitor not to raise any technical objection against a full inquiry being pursued into the conduct of the police on that occasion.

There was one statement made by the Minister to which I certainly take objection, and I would like to hear him further with regard to it. He spoke of the conduct of the Guards on this occasion in Wicklow as being "restrained and commendable." He said they showed great restraint. Does the Minister consider that batoning a man into unconsciousness is showing restraint, and that that should be held up as a headline to the Guards in every town in the country? Does the Minister consider that that is a statement that should come from a person in his position, and that the action of the Guards, in this instance, should be held up as a headline to the Guards in other parts of the country?

Deputies will have to have a little common-sense and a little imagination——

The Guards might have too much imagination.

Why are the Guards given batons at all? Under what circumstances, if any, should they use them?

In defence.

In defence of what?

If they were attacked.

They should not use them at all in defence of the legal rights——

In batoning men, women, and children.

In defence of the legal rights of any citizen.

They were preventing the legal rights.

Had any arrests been made before this attack, or were any arrests prevented?

You could not arrest a crowd of a hundred men.

Did you try to arrest one?

The whole assembly was an unlawful assembly. After several warnings and after telling the crowd several times to move on, the Guards proceeded to endeavour to move them on, and while advancing towards them the crowd opened hostilities by firing stones and other missiles at them.

That is a statement which is contradicted.

Thereupon the instruction was given to charge. In reply to Deputy Morrissey's question, I want to say that the Guards are given batons to use them when necessary——

At pleasure.

No; not at pleasure. That is rather an ill-natured interjection.

It arises from what you are saying.

I consider that such a necessity has arisen when, over a period of several hours, the right of five men to work has been physically challenged and that they have been physically obstructed.

That is a point which I desire——

I want to make a personal explanation. I hold that they were only two hours there. The Minister has made a statement that they were there for three hours. The employers——

Deputy Everett has already spoken eleven times to-night and he must now be satisfied and give way to a member of his own party whom I have called upon —Deputy Morrissey.

The Minister said the Guards showed commendable restraint in their action. He characterised the batoning of a man into unconsciousness as showing "commendable restraint." Does the Minister persist in that statement and does he hold that up as a headline to other members of the force?

When I spoke of "commendable restraint," what I meant was that great patience seemed to have been exercised, on the information available to me, by the officer in charge. That is borne out by the fact that this situation existed for a long period, that the officer seems to have done his best to get the crowd to see reason, to get them to move off, that he seems to have warned them on several occasions, that he tried to explain their position to them and that it was only after he had failed and when there was continued and prolonged obstruction of the right of five men to go on with their work who wanted to go on with their work that he intervened. As to the point of batoning a man into unconsciousness, and so on, I was not referring simply to the treatment of one particular individual when I spoke of "commendable restraint." I was referring to the manner in which the entire situation seems to have been handled. When it becomes necessary to use a baton and when there is a baton charge, it will happen that a particular blow struck may be over-heavy and may light on a particular portion of a man's anatomy——

And may be fatal.

And stunning or unconsciousness may ensue. It might even be fatal.

You are encouraging that. You are holding it up as a headline for the Guards.

The Deputy must not strain my words. The Guards were facing a violent crowd of a hundred people who were hurling coals and stones——

Not a word about it. I contradict that statement. There may have been a few stones thrown after the baton charge.

The Deputy must realise that a Minister speaking here can only speak from official information——

It should be correct. This information is from two ex-R.I.C. officers. They have been proved by their own methods.

I have been most careful in my language here to-night. I have prefaced every comment on the action of the Guards by stating that I based it on this information and on the assumption that the information available officially to me, is correct. I say again, and I say quite deliberately, that if the official statements I have read here to-night are correct, the Guards behaved with commendable restraint, and when necessary, with commendable determination.

The Minister persists in saying that five men were physically prevented from doing work.

Physically obstructed.

I think if the Minister makes inquiries he will find that that is not true. Two of these men were withdrawn in the ordinary way by a Trades Union official, and then a Trades Union dispute existed.

They did not withdraw. They wanted to go on with their work, and only left their work after the crowd had been dispersed.

They waited until the employer came down, and he did not arrive until ten o'clock.

The Dáil is now adjourned until Tuesday, 3rd February, at 3 p.m.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.35 p.m. until Tuesday, 3rd February, 1925.

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