I wish to draw attention to the, shall I say, lack of sequence. On the last occasion that we amended the Constitution the Bill was entitled "The Constitution (Amendment No. 1) Bill." The Minister has stated that this is an amendment to the Constitution. If there was any point in specifically entitling the Bill on the last occasion "The Constitution (Amendment) Bill, it is doubly so on this occasion, and I simply draw attention to it.
THE TITLE.
An Act to confirm a certain agreement amending and supplementing the Treaty of 1921 and to amend accordingly the references to the Treaty of 1921 contained in the Constitution of the Irish Free State (Saorstát Eireann) Act, 1922, and the Constitution.
Question proposed—"That this be the Title of the Bill.
Title put and agreed to.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Bill reported without amendment.
I move:—
|
Go gcuirtar ar fionnraoi forálacha Buan-Orduithe 86 agus 88, i dtaobh fógra do thabhairt chun Ceathrú Céim agus Cúigiú Céim Bhille do thógaint, chun go gceadófar Ceathrú Céim agus Cúigiú Céim Bille an Chonnartha (Daingniú ar an gCóAontú Leasathach), 1925, do thógaint Dé Máirt, 15adh Mí na Nodlag, 1925. |
That the provisions of Standing Orders 86 and 88 as to the giving of notice for the taking of the Fourth and Fifth Stages of a Bill he suspended to permit of the Fourth and Fifth Stages of the Treaty (Confirmation of Amending Agreement) Bill, 1925, being taken on Tuesday, 15th December, 1925. |
Question put.
The Dáil divided. Tá, 59; Níl, 16.
Tá
- Earnán Altún.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Thomas Bolger.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Próinsias Bulfin.
- Séamus de Búrca.
- John J. Cole.
- Bryan R. Cooper.
- John Daly.
- Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
- Uí Dhrisceóil.
- Michael Egan.
- Osmond Grattan Esmonde.
- Desmond Fitzgerald.
- Thomas Hennessy.
- John Hennigan.
- William Hewat.
- Patrick Leonard.
- Seosamh Mac a' Bhrighde.
- Liam Mac Cosgair.
- Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
- Patrick McGilligan.
- Risteárd Mac Liam.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Liam Mac Sioghaird.
- Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
- James Sproule Myles.
- Martin M. Nally.
- Michael K. Noonan.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Mícheál O hAonghusa.
- Seán O Bruadair.
- Risteárd O Conaill.
- Parthalán O Conchubhair.
- Conchubhar O Conghaile.
- Máirtín O Conalláin.
- Séamus O Cruadhlaoich.
- Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
- Séamus O Dóláin.
- Tadhg O Donnabháin.
- Peadar O Dubhghaill.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Donnchadh O Guaire.
- Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
- Aindriú O Láimhín.
- Séamus O Leadáin.
- Fionán O Loingsigh.
- Risteárd O Maolchatha.
- Domhnall O Mocháin.
- Séamus O Murchadha.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).
- Seán O Raghallaigh.
- Máirtín O Rodaigh.
- Seán O Súilleabháin.
- Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
- Caoimhghín O hUigín.
- Patrick W. Shaw.
- Nicholas Wall.
Níl
- Pádraig Baxter.
- Seán Buitléir.
- Séamus Eabhróid.
- David Hall.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
- Liam Mag Aonghusa.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Ailfrid O Broin.
- Criostóir O Broin.
- Tomás O Conaill.
- Aodh O Cúlacháin.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Pádraic O Máille.
- Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
- Tadhg O Murchadha.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Dolan and Sears. Níl: Deputies O'Connell and Morrissey.
Motion declared carried.
I move:—"That the Bill be received for final consideration."
I want to make quite clear why I divide upon the motion, so that it will be in the form of a record in the Journals of the House. I have said that I am against the Bill, and I am not satisfied with simply having a record in the Official Reports. I want it recorded in the Journals of the House that I, at any rate, was against this Bill at every stage, and that is why I now call for a division on this motion.
I feel it my duty to place before the House my reasons for the attitude I have adopted towards this Bill. I will not detain the House at this hour, but I will give my reasons for not supporting the Bill. I believe that Article XII. was specially put into the Treaty to safeguard the position of the Nationalists in the North. The importance of Article XII. was made clear by Lord Birkenhead's statement in the House of Lords this week, when he said that if they had not agreed to Article XII., the Treaty would not have been signed. When the Treaty would not have been signed by the Irish plenipotentiaries if Article XII. had not been included, it is clear that the importance of the Article must have been very great. If the Boundary Commission went outside its terms of reference, if it went outside Article XII., or if the Article itself was its terms of reference, it is clear that the award of the majority of the Commissioners was certainly not in accord with the evidence placed before them. I believe that the Executive had a record of the evidence submitted to the Commission from some of those who went before it, and that it was made clear to them by some of those who did give evidence that the Commission did not act and were not prepared to act in accordance with the terms of reference. Further, Judge Feetham himself stated, following certain lines that were placed before him in the evidence of one of the most important men in the North of Ireland, a man who holds one of the most prominent positions there, that this would interfere with the Northern Parliament and, if agreed to by him, might succeed in reducing their territory, or if not their territory, that it would injure their trade, their power and their future possibilities. It strikes me that the greater part of the evidence made it clear that a large number of the people in the North wanted to exercise their right, the right which they believed they held under Article XII., to come under the Free State Government, and I say that Judge Feetham not alone did not act according to the terms of reference when he refused to act on the evidence before him and when he allowed other influences to prevail. I say that that proves to us that Judge Feetham did not act as a chairman should, and did not give his award according to the evidence submitted to him.
When such information came before the Executive Council, as it must have come, I say that that was the time for them to take action. They ought to have been made aware of the position and of the possibility that the award would be injurious to those in the North of Ireland for whom they were acting and whose interests they were to safeguard as far as possible, and that that was the time for them to get into consultation with the people in the North to consider the matter and to determine what was best to be done. Unfortunately the people in the South, as well as those in the North who were interested, were lulled into a sense of false confidence. They believed that justice would be done. If justice was not likely to be done, I say it was up to the Executive Council to take steps at once to see, while taking into consideration geographical and economic conditions, that these people were not to be wronged and were not to be placed in a false position. The rights of citizenship are theirs, and by the award the rights of citizenship have been denied to them.
I refused to support this Bill on the ground that, to my mind, the Executive were not sent from the Dáil to London as plenipotentiaries. They went as members of an Executive Council when an unfortunate state of affairs had arisen, which possibly they did not foresee, and which I honestly believe they did not expect. But I say they did not go across as plenipotentiaries with the authority of the Dáil; they were not sent as plenipotentiaries to amend the Treaty. They merely went as Ministers of the Executive Council, and I say that they should not have concluded anything with the representatives of the British Government and of Northern Ireland without submitting it to us, giving the Dáil an opportunity of considering it and perhaps helping them to amend it still further, as the majority of Deputies believe it could have been amended. I say that they had not that power, and I say that the Dáil itself is entitled, as representing the people, to have any Bill amending the Constitution placed before it in the first instance for its consideration before it is brought in at a moment's notice.
That is not the Government's point of view.
When this matter came on first, the Minister for Justice said that it was necessary to have it put through without delay. I stated that there should neither be undue delay nor undue haste with this Bill. I believe that there was no possibility whatever of any injury being done if more time had been taken. By this agreement England is getting rid of the subsidies she has been paying to the Specials in the North. The North is indebted to her for the building of their Parliament House, and moneys have been coming from England to the North for other reasons. England, I am quite certain, with her keen appreciation of finance, did not wish to continue—I will not say spoon-feeding— helping out the North. She does not usually permit any of her money to be used in a foolish way. But I do not think she would have pressed her opposition, if it was a question of getting this signed, to giving the people an opportunity, or their representatives an opportunity, of considering this matter in all its bearings. I do not believe that the North would have been very keen on pressing this matter, considering the state of her trade and the depressed condition of her industries. Having regard to these circumstances, I do not think the North would have been keen on pressing for an immediate answer, and, as I have stated, I do not think England would have pressed either. There has been a great deal said about the question of the financial advantages to Ireland. We have been told by the Childers Commission, and by other authorities, that England owes us possibly £3,000,000. The result of that Commission might have been like the result of most Commissions, when the findings were favourable to Ireland. The result might have been nil, but there is one thing which should not be forgotten, and that is, that England holds three ports in Ireland which, to her, are of the greatest commercial advantage. England has three naval bases in this country, and I am quite certain that England would put a fairly high financial value on those three ports. I am not aware that the value of those ports has been taken into consideration in connection with this Agreement.
As regards the question of Ireland's liability and her capacity to pay in connection with the War Debt, I think you have heard sufficient on that subject already. Sufficient, I think, has been said to convince us that England's idea of Ireland's indebtedness was not going to count for anything. I believe that against the advantages we have gained we have not properly estimated the considerations in connection with the North. In our present state of tiredness and weariness, I am not going to go over all the points raised by the various speakers, but this I say, that no advantages are apparent to me in the Bill that in any way counteract the disadvantage to our people in the North and the possibilities of other trouble that might arise. Why I have not voted against the Bill I can make clear by two points. (Interruption by Deputy Leonard.) I have heard two speeches in this House, one from Deputy Thrift and one from Deputy Cooper——
On a point of order, I heard a Deputy make use of the words "God blast you." I ask if it is in order for any Deputy to use language like that in this House?
I did not hear those words used.
I was next to the Deputy who spoke and those words were not used.
I did not hear them, at all events.
Does Deputy Leonard deny that he used the words?
Certainly I do— most emphatically.
Does Deputy Leonard deny that he used the words "blast you"?
I do.
Does Deputy Johnson apologise?
I am as convinced as that I am speaking that the remark was used.
The Deputy denies it.
I certainly never used and never intended to use such words.
This debate has gone on from 3 o'clock and we had better not now, at a few minutes to 11 o'clock, get into a wrangle over this question. I did not hear Deputy Leonard say anything. Deputy Johnson states that he heard him say something. Deputy Leonard denies that he said what Deputy Johnson alleges he said. It is clear that we must accept the Deputy's disclaimer.
It is rather a scandalous thing to suggest that a Deputy used that language.
It can be corroborated. The remark was heard by more than Deputy Johnson.
When an allegation like this is made against a Deputy and the Deputy denies it, that denial must be accepted. We cannot constitute ourselves a court to decide whether A's hearing or B's hearing is to be pitted against Deputy C's denial. There is no other way of conducting our business than by accepting the denial.
It is accepted, but still we believe the statement was made.
The matter does not affect me, and, if a remark of that sort was made, I am sure there must have been some misunderstanding. As I was stating at the time the interruption took place, there are two points that prevent me from voting against this Bill. One is the statement made by some of my fellow-Deputies, which would make for a happier spirit for the future. I have all my life supported a spirit of goodwill and toleration and supported the coming together of all Irishmen for the building up of their country. With me that was not a sentiment of to-day or yesterday. It is not a pious aspiration. It is my belief that the future of Ireland is going to depend on getting the people, North and South, to work together. The only thing I would ask is that that spirit which Deputy Cooper and Deputy Sir James Craig find amongst the Catholics of the South, when dealing with their Protestant and Presbyterian countrymen, may be cultivated by the majority in the North towards their Catholic fellow-countrymen, because it is this spirit that will decide the future of Ireland. Ireland is for the whole of us, and I feel that this division has been due to outside circumstances and that it is not of Irish parentage. That is one of my reasons for not voting against this Bill. I do not want to put any obstacle in the way of bringing about that cooperation. I should have wished that the Executive Council, or the President on behalf of that Council, was in a position to give a more authoritative statement from Sir James Craig, the Prime Minister of the Northern Parliament, as to the position of those of the minority under his jurisdiction in the North.
I do not think anything would be gained by my going further, but I hope that the expression of opinion given in this House regarding the treatment of the minority in the Free State will induce Sir James Craig to secure for the minority in the North equal right of citizenship—equal right on the Councils there, equal right to education, and equal right in all other respects. That would be only as it should be in a free country. Finally, may I say that my strongest reason for not voting against this Bill is that I have refused to allow any point of vantage that we have secured for the building up of the Irish nation to be lost. I do not see my way to try and undo anything gained by the Treaty, even though it be injured in part.
Question put.
The Dáil divided. Tá, 54; Níl, 15.
Tá
- Earnán Altún.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Próinsias Bulfin.
- Séamus de Búrca.
- John J. Cole.
- Bryan R. Cooper.
- John Daly.
- Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
- Uí Dhrisceóil.
- Michael Egan.
- Desmond Fitzgerald.
- Thomas Hennessy.
- John Hennigan.
- William Hewat.
- Connor Hogan.
- Patrick Leonard.
- Liam Mac Cosgair.
- Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
- Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
- Patrick McGilligan.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
- James Sproule Myles.
- Martin M. Nally.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Mícheál O hAonghusa.
- Seán O Bruadair.
- Risteárd O Conaill.
- Parthalán O Conchubhair.
- Conchubhar O Conghaile.
- Máirtín O Conalláin.
- Séamus O Cruadhlaoich.
- Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
- Séamus O Dóláin.
- Tadhg O Donnabháin.
- Peadar O Dubhghaill.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Donnchadh O Guaire.
- Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
- Aindriú O Láimhín.
- Fionán O Loingsigh.
- Risteárd O Maolchatha.
- Domhnall O Mocháin.
- Séamus O Murchadha.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).
- Seán O Raghallaigh.
- Máirtín O Rodaigh.
- Seán O Súilleabháin.
- Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
- Caoimhghín O hUigín.
- Patrick W. Shaw.
- Nicholas Wall.
Níl
- Pádraig Baxter.
- Seán Buitléir.
- Séamus Eabhróid.
- David Hall.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
- Liam Mag Aonghusa.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Ailfrid O Broin.
- Criostóir O Broin.
- Tomás O Conaill.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Pádraic O Máille.
- Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
- Tadhg O Murchadha.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Dolan and Peadar Doyle. Níl: Deputies Morrissey and T.J. O'Connell.
Motion declared carried.
Deputy Leonard, against whom I made a charge of having used certain words, that certainly should not have been used in this Dáil, if they were used, has assured me that he did not use the words, but that, on the contrary, he used other words which sounded very much like them. I accept his denial, and beg to withdraw my imputation and to ask for his forgiveness. I make that sincere apology.
Question—"That the Bill do now pass" put.
The Dáil divided. Tá, 55; Níl, 14.
Tá
- Earnán Altún.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Próinsias Bulfin.
- Séamus de Búrca.
- John J. Cole.
- Bryan R. Cooper.
- John Daly.
- Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
- Uí Dhrisceóil.
- Michael Egan.
- Desmond Fitzgerald.
- Thomas Hennessy.
- John Hennigan.
- William Hewat.
- Connor Hogan.
- Conchubhair O Conghaile.
- Máirtín O Conalláin.
- Séamus O Cruadhlaoich.
- Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
- Séamus O Dóláin.
- Tadhg O Donnabháin.
- Peadar O Dubhghaill.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Donnchadh O Guaire.
- Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
- Aindriú O Láimhín.
- Fionán O Loingsigh.
- Patrick Leonard.
- Seosamh Mac a' Bhrighde.
- Liam Mac Cosgair.
- Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
- Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
- Patrick McGilligan.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
- James Sproule Myles.
- Martin M. Nally.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Mícheál O hAonghusa.
- Seán O Bruadair.
- Risteárd O Conaill.
- Parthalán O Conchubhair.
- Risteárd O Maolchatha.
- Domhnall O Mocháin.
- Séamus O Murchadha.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).
- Seán O Raghallaigh.
- Máirtín O Rodaigh.
- Seán O Súilleabháin.
- Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
- Caoimhghín O hUigín.
- Patrick W. Shaw.
- Nicholas Wall.
Níl
- Pádraig Baxter.
- Seán Buitléir.
- Séamus Eabhróid.
- David Hall.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
- Liam Mag Aonghusa.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Ailfrid O Broin.
- Criostóir O Broin.
- Tomás O Conaill.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
- Tadhg O Murchadha.
Tellers:— Tá, Deputies Dolan and P. Doyle. Níl: Deputies Morrissey and T. O'Connell.
Motion declared carried.
took the Chair.
I move:
|
Go bhfaisnéistear leis seo an Bille dá ngairmtear Bille an Chonnartha (Daingniú ar an gCó-Aontú Leas-athach), 1925, agus do ritheadh ag an Tigh iniu do bheith riachtanach chun síocháin agus sábháltacht na puiblíochta do chosaint láithreach agus, dá réir sin, ná bainfidh forál- acha Airtiogal XLVII de Bhunreacht Shaorstáit Eireann leis an mBille sin. |
That it is hereby declared that the Bill entitled the Treaty (Confirmation of Amending Agreement) Bill, 1925, which has this day been passed by the House, is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace and safety and that, accordingly, the provisions of Article XLVII. of the Constitution of Saorstát Eireann shall not apply to the Bill. |
Since the publication in the "Morning Post" of the line which forecasted the position of the Boundary Commission, or rather which attempted to forecast it, many representations have been made to the Executive Council as to the dangers that might be apprehended if any such alteration or transfer of territory took place. That information has been supplemented since by officials of the State, placed in a position to acquaint the Executive Council of the possibilities of disorder and discontent, and in almost every case in which we received deputations, particularly from one particular portion of the line, it was made plain that there was danger of a breach of the public peace, and any such outbreak which might occur would have very dangerous reactions on the whole situation. In the light of that information practically all the steps that have been taken by the Executive Council since that date were taken with a view to preserving the public peace. Now, those considerations being present to our minds we deemed it to be our duty to put down this motion so that this question should be settled definitely, once and for all. Accordingly, I move it.
The President's reasons for so great a debasement, I may say, of the Constitution are utterly inadequate. He told us that, since the publication of a certain article in the "Morning Post," he has been aware of the possibilities of danger to the public peace. That was several weeks ago. Yet now it is said on this day of December that there is so great a danger to public peace that it is necessary that this amendment to the Constitution shall take place, without giving any opportunity to the people to express their views upon it. I say the explanations of the Minister are most inadequate. I think it is simply special pleading for a cause which is not justified by the facts. He has not given us any evidence at all that there is any more danger to-day than there was a week ago, a fortnight ago, or three weeks ago, or that there is any more danger to-day than there will be in a week, a fortnight, a month or three months hence.
Article XLVII. of the Constitution provides for a certain public expression of opinion, in definite circumstances, in respect of any legislation. It adds a proviso that "these provisions shall not apply to money Bills or to such Bills as shall be declared by both Houses to be necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health or safety." It is well within the knowledge of Deputies— those who were present at the discussions of the Constitution Bill—that a provision of that kind was inserted with a view to meeting great emergencies where there was a risk of immediate danger to the public peace. But this danger the President speaks of, he says it was imminent. If it is imminent since the "Morning Post" issued its article, it is obvious to the Dáil that the immediate preservation of the public peace is not the issue. It is not for the immediate preservation of the public peace that this motion is being moved.
The President last week quite definitely declared his willingness to refer this Bill to the people if 100,000 signatures were collected and submitted bona fide—genuine signatures. He refuses now to fulfil that undertaking and to allow opportunities to get the 100,000 signatures. He desires to prevent public opinion expressing itself upon this Bill in the manner provided for by the Constitution. He can carry this motion undoubtedly, and he can carry it no doubt in the Seanad, but he is carrying it in the face of his own promises and his own undertaking to hold up the Bill if 100,000 signatures of protest could be provided. I say that he has not shown to the Dáil that there is any danger to the public peace such as that visualised in the proviso to Article XLVII. Such danger as he has spoken of is a danger which cannot be immediate inasmuch as he says it has been hanging over the country since the "Morning Post" published its articles. Why was there a danger then? Because there was likely to be a change in the boundary. If this Bill is held in suspense for the period provided by the Constitution, the boundary will remain as it is, and there will be no danger to the public peace on that score. Consequently, I say the Minister has not proved to the House the necessity for this rushing method of changing the Constitution.
The referendum was expressly provided for a situation such as this. It is an appeal to the electorate against decisions taken in the legislature with a view to determining how far, if at all, a majority vote in the legislature is indicative of the people. To block an appeal to the people upon this measure will be well understood by the people. On a famous occasion when war was declared, Walpole said: "You ring your bells to-day; by and by you will wring your hands."
The remarks of Deputy Johnson and of Deputy Professor Magennis were properly addressed to Ministers, but I, speaking as a Northerner, with an intimate knowledge of the facts of the case which Deputy Johnson has made, cannot confirm the argument which he made against the President. If the boundary line forecasted by the "Morning Post" were enforced it would be a very serious matter for the constituency that I come from and for other constituencies along the Northern border. I can assure the House that since the debates began on this question my colleagues and myself in Donegal have had sufficient evidence to prove to us that if a referendum were held the votes of the people we represent would go in favour of the action taken by the Government.
That is all the more reason why you should have one.
Why have a futile thing? It is not the policy of Deputy Johnson, I am sure, and it is not his character to do futile things, and this would be a futile thing, and would postpone whatever beneficence is in this Agreement.
I stated on 7th December that I was prepared if I got 100,000 bona fide signatures in accordance with the Constitution to have a referendum. It is right to say that at the moment I made that statement I was not aware of the fact that three months might elapse before I could get them. If I had been aware of that at the time I would not have made the statement. I find on looking up the Official Report that Deputy Baxter asked me if I was prepared to hold up the passage of this measure until the decision of the people could be obtained. I replied: "The necessity does not arise."
Now this measure, in my view, is just as necessary to pass, and to pass without delay, as the Land Bill and the same resolution was passed when the Land Bill was before this House—that it was necessary for the immediate preservation of public safety and peace. I got something like 60 communications since this matter was published, and of the 60, three were against the Bill. I believe I got one from Limerick against it. I got two from the area of the Six Counties. I got many from the Six Counties favouring this proposal. Most of the communications I received were from Ireland. At least two were from America. Some, but not many, were from England. If it is to be a success at all—and Deputies opposite have admitted that they are not taking the line that they are going to prevent it being a success—it ought to be done at once, and we ought not to hold over the people of Donegal for three or four months or possibly even a longer space of time this measure as a sort of Mahomet's coffin—somewhere between heaven and earth, but neither one nor the other. That is a situation which I certainly would not like to take responsibility for, and I am satisfied from what information is at our disposal that it is our duty to pass this resolution. It is the duty of the Executive Council at any rate to propose the resolution here for adoption. From other sources at our disposal it has been very plainly asserted that the people of this country are in favour, absolutely in favour, by huge majorities of this proposal.
My experience is the opposite.
Let us examine for the moment what the position is in this House. Deputy Johnson, I hope, will not think that I am saying anything personal when I say or repeat what Deputy Dr. MacNeill said about his Party, that it is a particularly well regimented Party.
Allow me to say this, that never in my experience since the conscription proposals were before the country have I had so much unanimity from all parts as in opposition to this and that opposition was quite spontaneous.
The strange thing about this is that the Deputy's Party, at any rate, has been solid on this. Our Party has not.
Certainly.
There has been remarkable solidity from the Independents. As far as I know, no member of the Independent Party has voted against it. There has been a remarkable majority in the case of the Farmers' Party. I take it that these Deputies go to their constituents and that they are in touch with them and know what their constituents want. I am satisfied that, apart from what I call for the moment the official Labour Party and the Anti-Treaty Party, that there is no great support against it.
Will the President suggest that the Cumann na nGaedheal representative of Meath has visited his constituency and satisfied himself on this or any other matter during the last six months?
No; but my recollection is that I had a message from Meath on the matter, and a Deputy who sits for Westmeath, at any rate, said that 80 per cent of his constituents were in favour of it, although he voted against it himself. Well, the risk we are invited to take is the risk of discontent, of disorder, and possibly even worse than that. That is not a risk I am prepared to take. All the time while this Act would be in suspension, if it were suspended, it would be open to the Boundary Commission to bring in their report, and I am not going to take that risk.
Perhaps the President would say what the referendum is for?
Would the President tell us what the cost of a referendum would be, and if it would only fall slightly short of the cost of the recent Seanad elections?
It would not cost much less than that. It would cost sixty or eighty thousand pounds. I do not know exactly what the cost of the recent Seanad elections was, as the returns are not yet completed, but it certainly would not cost less than that.
The President gives as a reason——
The Deputy has already spoken.
I am asking a question, and it is not necessary to shut me up. The President has given as a reason for refusing the referendum that there has been an expression of opinion from various quarters of the House in favour of this measure. Does the President forget that the Constitution provides a referendum for a Bill that has passed or is deemed to have passed by a majority? What is the referendum for?
Deputy O'Doherty suggested, speaking as a Northern and an Ulster man, that there is danger until this measure is past. I have been in Ulster in the week-end, and I say in this House that there is not one bit more danger now than there was during the past twelve months. There is no immediate danger, and it is not fair to represent either to this Dáil or to the country that there is immediate danger in any sense if this Bill does not go through.
That makes it necessary for me to add that we have very definite and very authentic official information to the contrary.
In my opinion the people of the country are sick of these political and border questions. Should we not get back to business and to work and make some progress when we are faced with problems of unemployment and bad trade in the country? In face of these matters, is it really not time to get back to our ordinary work?
Question put.
The Dáil divided. Tá, 52; Níl, 15.
Tá
- Earnán Altún.
- Earnán de Blaghd.
- Séamus Breathnach.
- Próinsias Bulfin.
- Séamus de Búrca.
- John J. Cole.
- Bryan R. Cooper.
- Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean
- Uí Dhrisceóil.
- Desmond Fitzgerald.
- Thomas Hennessy.
- John Hennigan.
- Connor Hogan.
- Patrick Leonard.
- Seosamh Mac a' Bhrighde.
- Liam Mac Cosgair.
- Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
- Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
- Patrick McGilligan.
- Eoin Mac Néill.
- Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
- Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
- James Sproule Myles.
- Martin M. Nally.
- Seán O Súilleabháin.
- Mícheál O Tighearnaigh.
- Caoimhghín O hUigín.
- Michael K. Noonan.
- Peadar O hAodha.
- Mícheál O hAonghusa.
- Seán O Bruadair.
- Risteárd O Conaill.
- Parthalán O Conchubhair.
- Conchubhar O Conghaile.
- Máirtín O Conalláin.
- Séamus O Cruadhlaoich.
- Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
- Séamus O Dóláin.
- Tadhg O Donnabháin.
- Peadar O Dubhghaill.
- Eamon O Dúgáin.
- Mícheál O hIfearnáin.
- Aindriú O Láimhín.
- Fionán O Loingsigh.
- Risteárd O Maolchatha.
- Domhnall O Mocháin.
- Séamus O Murchadha.
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
- Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).
- Seán O Raghallaigh.
- Máirtín O Rodaigh.
- Patrick W. Shaw.
- Nicholas Wall.
Níl
- Pádraig Baxter.
- Seán Buitléir.
- Séamus Eabhróid.
- David Hall.
- Tomás Mac Eoin.
- Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
- Liam Mag Aonghusa.
- Tomás de Nógla.
- Ailfrid O Broin.
- Criostóir O Broin.
- Tomás O Conaill.
- Eamon O Dubhghaill.
- Pádraic O Máille.
- Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
- Tadhg O Murchadha.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Dolan and P. Doyle. Níl: Deputies Morrissey and Baxter.
Motion declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 11.50 p.m. till Wednesday, 16th December.