Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Feb 1926

Vol. 14 No. 11

SUPPLEMENTARY AND ADDITIONAL ESTIMATES. - VOTE 2—OIREACHTAS.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

Go ndcontar suim bhreise ná raghaich thar £10 chun íochta an mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, chun tuarastail agus costaisí an Oireachtais.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for the salaries and expenses of the Oireachtas.

The first sub-head of this Vote deals with an additional grant to the Saorstát group of the inter-Parliamentary Union. The original Estimate provided for a sum of £80, representing the annual subscription to the Union. The conference was held this year in America and in view of the very large Irish population there, and the special importance, from the Saorstát point of view, which attached to the conference, it was thought desirable that representatives of the Saorstát group should be enabled to travel to America. An additional sum of £400 was, therefore, provided out of the Contingency Fund towards the expenses of the delegates.

The second sub-head is a grant-in-aid for the carrying on of the restaurant. It is described here as a final contribution, but I have a slight suspicion that we may have to have an extra final contribution at some later date. I do not know that that could be avoided. It is certainly necessary that the restaurant should be maintained and that it should be possible for Deputies to have food and refreshment in the building and so avoid going outside. Owing to the fact that the membership of the House is small, that there are considerable intervals during which the House does not sit, that the staff cannot be dispensed with and the establishment cannot be closed down, losses are likely to occur. The losses so far have not been very serious, considering the fairly long adjournments that have taken place. For a considerable time when the Oireachtas was sitting steadily the restaurant was able to pay its way, but last year there were fewer sittings and losses were incurred.

The last sub-head in the Vote deals with the subscription to the proposed Saorstát branch of the inter-Parliamentary Association. The purpose of this subscription is to have the Journal of the inter-Parliamentary Association circulated to members of the Oireachtas and to have reports of our proceedings inserted in it. Considerable subscriptions are given by other States of the Commonwealth to this Association. The British Parliament votes £4,000 a year: Australia, £250: Canada, 2,000 dollars; Newfoundland, £200; New Zealand, £200; and South Africa, £250. The Quarterly Journal which is published by the Association gives a resumé of the most important matters that come before the different Parliaments. The Journal will be of value to members of the Oireachtas, having regard to the almost special place that we have in the Commonwealth and the strong interest we have in development within the Commonwealth. It will be of value to members of the Oireachtas to have that Journal supplied to them. They can see what is going on in the other Parliaments included in the Commonwealth. The Journal will contain reports of what is being done here: what we are doing will be brought to the notice of members of the other Parliaments. I think Deputies will realise the very real value that can be obtained through the circulation of this Journal and by the insertion in it of reports of the proceedings of the Oireachtas. I do not think that the proposed Saorstát branch contemplates, for the present at any rate, any other activity. It will be responsible simply for the selection and editing of the matter that we wish to have inserted in the Quarterly Journal.

Mr. WILSON

With regard to Sub-head (H)—a grant in aid of £400 to the inter-Allied Union group, or rather the inter-Parliamentary Union group— it is the opinion of quite a number of citizens that the inter-Parliamentary Union groups should have defrayed the expenses of their own delegates. Public funds should not have been drawn upon to any extent in connection with the attendance of delegates in any place, Washington or otherwise. Inter-Parliamentary Union groups should be sufficiently strong to defray the expenses of their own delegates. While we are very pleased that we were represented at Washington, still I think it is a bad precedent to adopt to meet expenses in this way, particularly in view of our existing financial conditions and the public discussions that are going on about expenses. I do not say that those public discussions are real; I believe they are more or less engineered. At the same time, this is one item that will strengthen the trend of those discussions, and for that reason I am opposed to the item contained in the sub-head.

Major COOPER

I rise to correct Deputy Wilson on two points. First, he talked about an inter-Allied Union ——

Mr. WILSON

I corrected that to inter-Parliamentary Union.

Major COOPER

The suggestion might be put forward as a result of the Deputy's remark that the reference was to allies in the late European war. I have here a list of the Parliaments represented at the Conference in Washington. The first is Austria. Austria was not an ally in the European war. Looking down the list I see, side by side, France and Germany. Nobody can say they were allies.

Mr. WILSON

On a point of explanation. The Deputy is explaining away a statement of mine which I myself disavowed.

Major COOPER

I agree the Deputy disavowed it; but he made it.

Mr. GOREY

And disavowed it.

Major COOPER

There is no doubt that Deputy Wilson's second thoughts are best. I believe if the Deputy thought a second time about making the speech that he has just made, his second thought would have been best. I think, on the whole, that we did derive value from the £400 expended. I am the treasurer of the Saorstát branch of the inter-Parliamentary Union. Our total income is altogether less than about £150 a year, including a contribution of £80 from the Government. How many people can you send to the United States for £70 odd?

Deputy Wilson's policy is that delegates should pay their own expenses. That means that you would only be able to send as representatives those men who would be in a position to put down £150 or £170. Would that make for a representative delegation of the Oireachtas? I do not think so. Though I was not one of the delegation I was in some way responsible for it, and to my mind the necessity of it was to mark to the forty-one Parliaments represented in this Congress the true quality of the Oireachtas. The delegates were carefully chosen for that purpose. Two were in a position to pay their own expenses—the Minister for Industry and Commerce and Senator Sir Thomas Esmonde, but the latter, through illness, could not go. We had to find three representatives, and I humbly suggest that we could not have done better than send the representatives we did, namely, An Ceann Comhairle, Deputy Johnson and Deputy Mulcahy.

I think that Deputy Wilson will admit that such a delegation was calculated to impress on the United States and the Parliaments of the world represented there, that we are not merely a retrogressive force, chewing and breaking the bones of old quarrels, but that we are a progressive Parliament, a Parliament that is doing things and trying to do things. Our representatives took an active part in the debates. Deputy Johnson moved a motion. There is nothing very surprising in that. It was a motion which was opposed by the leader of the British Empire Delegation.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

There is nothing very surprising in that.

Major COOPER

What is a little more surprising is, that Deputy Johnson was reinforced by Deputy Mulcahy. They succeeded in having the Saorstát point of view emphasised and placed on record, before not merely the United States, but before Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, and in fact, before practically all the Parliaments of the world. What else was done? To begin with, our delegates came into association with other delegates of the British Commonwealth. They met, and were the guests of, the Canadian and Newfoundland delegates. They met the Prime Minister of Newfoundland, and they discovered that he was born in Fitzwilliam Square, Dublin. They met the Minister for Justice of Newfoundland, and they discovered that he went by the name of Higgins— he had shed the "O" in crossing the ocean. They found that out of four delegates from Newfoundland, three were of Irish birth. You, sir, were able to interview the Clerk of the House of Representatives, the Clerk of the Senate at Washington, and the Clerk of the Canadian Parliament, and to learn various things as to procedure, which, I think, will be of value, though I do not think that there is much about procedure that anybody could teach you. They were able to come into contact with men of every point of view. At various social and other gatherings the delegates of Saorstát Eireann were in the forefront. So great was the mark they made, that when it was necessary to pass an official vote of thanks to the American people and Congress for their kindness and hospitality, it was moved by a representative of Poland, and the Ceann Comhairle of Dáil Eireann was selected to second it. That, I think, is some cause for pride.

I think that to stand up amongst the representatives of forty-one Parliaments and uphold our rights as a Parliament of our own is worth £400. The fact that we were able to make our status plain to the United States and to the people of the world is worth £400. Where any conference is held within reasonable limits of this State I would agree with Deputy Wilson that the delegates, or the groups which they represent, should pay their own expenses. That occurred last year in Switzerland, where groups paid the expenses of two delegates, while one delegate paid his own expenses. If such conferences were held somewhere in Europe economy might triumph, and we ought not ask for a grant of this kind. I do not know if it would be reasonable to ask the Minister for Finance for funds to send a delegation to Warsaw or Budapest where we have few interests, but we have enormous interests in the United States where we have a special representative. I think that this delegation, by backing up the work of our representative there, is well worth the sum which we are now asked to vote.

Mr. WILSON

I find myself in agreement with nearly everything which Deputy Cooper has said. The only point of difference is that I believe in self-help. I believe, as a member of the Hierarchy said the other day, that we should not be wailing daily at the door of the Treasury for funds. If the Union here had only £70 it must be weak and it could not possibly represent this Parliament.

Major COOPER

Our subscription is one guinea. Will Deputy Wilson join?

Mr. WILSON

I want to point out that the only objection I have is that, while I believe the delegation was of great value so far as it went, we, as a Parliament, should not have been asked to expend public money upon a representation which should have been paid for by ourselves from our own personal means.

The PRESIDENT

I would ask Deputy Wilson not to persevere in his objection. I had the distinction of shepherding this recommendation to the Executive Council. I invite the attention of Deputies to the fact that in connection with the reception of these delegates the American Government provided a vote of 50,000 dollars, and that amount was subsequently increased. I do not know anything about the personnel of the American Government, but I take it that the members of the House of Representatives and Congress are endowed with the possession of more worldly goods than the members of the Oireachtas. I agree with Deputy Major Cooper that it was necessary to supplement the funds of the Union with a Government subsidy. I am personally satisfied that, apart from the subscription which may have been given by the Union and apart from the subscription given by the Government, the members of the delegation were themselves at considerable loss, to say nothing of the time involved by reason of their attendance at this session. I think that it would be unreasonable to object to our participation in it, apart from the question of its being held in America.

If there be a branch of that organisation here, I think we ought to accept the responsibility of membership, as well as any advantages that are derived. Of all the institutions of which I have been a member in this country, this one represents a very much bigger outlook than any of the others. There is nothing parochial, nothing small, about it. In other institutions in the country arrangements are made for sending delegations to other countries to see certain activities of a character similar to those of the administration in which they are taking part. This particular Union has immense possibilities for the future. The members who attend have a great privilege. They shoulder, in fact, a big responsibility in attending, and the personal cost and effort is considerable. I should say that normally, if it were not for the peculiar character of this assembly and the fact that it was held in America and was attended by such people, the members who attended could not have justified to themselves the personal expenditure which attendance there entailed. In view of these circumstances, I do not think that Deputy Wilson should persevere in his objection.

Mr. JOHNSON

I think it is necessary to say a word in regard to this matter on behalf of the delegation. I would resent any thought that might arise out of this discussion that any Vote that may be made was in the nature of a gift, or privilege, to the delegates. If that is the thought of any Deputy, I hope that he will vote against this motion. I think I am right in saying in regard to all the delegates that it was a matter of public duty and very arduous work, and if there is any suggestion in anybody's mind that there is any gift, testimonial, or privilege given, or granted, to the delegates who were present by making a Vote of this kind, I hope that he will vote decisively against this motion.

General MULCAHY

And that he will offer to go to the next Conference.

Motion put and agreed to.