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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Feb 1926

Vol. 14 No. 11

SUPPLEMENTARY AND ADDITIONAL ESTIMATES. - VOTE 11—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.

I move:—

Go ndeontar Suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar Deich bPúint chun íochta an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, chun caiteachais i dtaobh Tithe Puiblí, chun Páirceanna agus Oibreacha Puiblí áirithe do choinneáil i dtreo, chun Oibreacha Dréineála ar Abhainn na Sionainne do choinneáil i dtreo, chun an Bhearbha do dhréineáil, agus chun Ildeontaisí i gCabhair.

That a Supplementary Sum not exceeding Ten Pounds be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for expenditure in respect of Public Buildings, for the maintenance of certain Parks and Public Works, for the maintenance of Drainage Works on the River Shannon, for Barrow Drainage and Sundry Grants-in-Aid.

Deputies will see that there are two sub-heads, one in respect of new works and the other in respect of expenditure on the Barrow Drainage Scheme. The expenditure in respect of new works falls under two heads. First there is an expenditure of £500 required in connection with the Preparatory Colleges. The total estimate shown for the work is £150,000. That is an outside figure. It might, quite possibly, be considerably less than that. To some extent, whether it would be considerably less than that would depend on the possibility of getting over colleges which could be fairly easily adapted. If in any case colleges had to be built from the ground, it would probably run to double £150,000. That sum of £150,000 is an estimate which covers not merely buildings but also necessary furnishing of the colleges. It is, as I say, an outside figure and some lesser expenditure might be anticipated.

The second item under that sub-head B is the expenditure which will be incurred in connection with the erection of the 1916 Memorial in Glasnevin. £750 is now asked for. The total expenditure will be £1,050. Towards that there is an Appropriation-in-Aid available of £550, so that the total net expenditure of the State in connection with the memorial will be a sum of £500. The memorial is one that was designed and sculptured by a very distinguished Irishwoman, the late Dora Sigerson Shorter. It was her desire, which was seconded very warmly by the late General Collins and by the late President Griffith, that the memorial should be erected in Dublin. However, owing to events which intervened, no steps could be taken before Mrs. Shorter's death. She left by her will a sum of £1,000 for the purpose of providing the actual memorial and for its erection. As long ago as December, 1923, the Executive Council intimated to Mr. Shorter that they were prepared to accept the offer of the memorial and were prepared to find the site. It was thought at that time that perhaps the sum provided might be sufficient for its erection. Until recently, however, no steps were taken in the matter, but it has now been gone into fully, and it has been found possible to carry out the entire work that is necessary to be done here at the sum of £1,050, of which £550 will be available from Mr. Shorter. The expenditure will really be on the plot; because of the object for which it is desired, the Cemeteries Committee are giving it for a sum of £300. In the ordinary way the plot would be considerably more than that. The Cemeteries Committee will also undertake the perpetual care of the memorial for a sum of £150. There remains really the cost of erecting the foundation and the canopy for the memorial, which will be about £550. There will be a sum required for the transfer of the memorial to Dublin. The actual figures are being carved in Italy, the cost being paid out of the bequest left by the late Dora Sigerson. As I say, this matter has been before the Government for a very considerable time. The discussion of it was begun during the lifetime of the late General Collins and the late President Griffith.

The Barrow drainage is the remaining sub-head under which expenditure will be incurred. This is one of the most difficult problems that has come before us. Deputies are aware that it has a very long history. The Government some time ago employed Professor Meyer Peter to examine the very imperfect plans that were in existence and to proceed to prepare a scheme. He reported on 31st March, 1925, and estimated that the total cost of the work would be £1,130,000. The Government, in examining the matter, felt that one-half of the cost would have to be provided from the Exchequer if the scheme was to be proceeded with at all. Even so, it is a scheme which could only be justified on the ground that it provided a great deal of employment during this period of depression, when the giving of employment is a consideration of very great importance. It is a scheme which it is difficult to decide to go on with, and it is necessary that the greatest possible care shall be taken with in its examination. Professor Meyer Peter only embodied in his report a general design which would have to be worked out in detail by means of surveys on the ground and further examination following those surveys. The work which Professor Meyer Peter indicated as work remaining to be done was begun in July, 1925, and it is proceeding as far as weather conditions permit. It cannot be completed for some time. In addition to the surveys and the flow measurements which are taking place, valuation of land is proceeding with a view to getting an up-to-date and reliable estimate of the benefits which will accrue from the carrying out of this drainage work.

As indicating the somewhat sketchy manner in which this whole matter was dealt with in previous times, it may be said that up to the present there have been no measurements of the actual flow of water into the Barrow. When the Shannon scheme was being examined in the first instance, there were gaugings available taken over a long period of years. So far as the Barrow is concerned, these details were not available. They are just being taken now. Sufficient has not been done to provide firm results, but to some extent they seem likely to modify the estimate of the flow which has hitherto been worked upon. That estimate was simply based on the catchment area of the river and on rainfall calculations. The close examination which is being given to the matter may result in a decision to omit certain parts of the work, if they can be omitted without serious damage to the scheme. Because of the expensive nature of the work, it is very necessary to reduce the works in any way possible, if they can be reduced, without doing a great deal of damage.

One of the things which require very serious consideration is the amount of work which requires to be done below Athy. In the first schemes that were submitted there was practically no provision for work below Athy. Later on there was provision for some larger sums, but Professor Meyer Peter attached even greater importance to the work below Athy than those who had been previously dealing with the scheme, and provided, I think, for almost half of the expenditure below Athy. Some of that expenditure arose out of considerations concerning the preserving of existing facilities for navigation, and, perhaps, improving them very slightly. At any rate, the matter is being gone on with.

As the localities concerned and the benefited lands will have to pay half of the cost, it is necessary that we should do everything possible to make the scheme as cheap and economic as possible, that we should have the firmest possible figures as to what the total cost of the scheme would be and should know as far as possible what is going to be the actual benefit to the land by the scheme as carried out. The scheme is such a big one that last summer it was decided, after a great deal of consideration, that no work should be undertaken on the river which would oblige us to adopt any particular scheme or tie our hands in deciding what was the best way of dealing with the problem. The scheme is still in the condition that while we are providing under the Board of Works Estimate for the coming year for a certain sum that may be expended on works on the Barrow, those works will have to be very carefully selected and will be of a preliminary nature. They must be works that, no matter what shape the scheme afterwards takes and what possible eliminations may be made, will have to be done.

I feel that there is no scheme which requires greater scrutiny than this. If it were going to be a profitable scheme that would benefit the lands up to or beyond the extent of the expenditure, it would be easy to go ahead with it. As it is, it is not a scheme which can benefit the lands to the extent of the expenditure as far as anybody can see. We must take into consideration what effect it will have on the health of the district and on the contentment and industry of the people in the district; and what benefit will accrue from relieving people of the uncertainty that exists as well as from loss. We must take into consideration all the advantages that may accrue from carrying out works of this kind at a time when employment is needed before we can be justified in proceeding with it.

The view of the Government, after very careful consideration, is that the scheme should be gone on with, but it is absolutely necessary that the work which is now being done should be brought to its conclusion before legislation is brought before the Dáil. We must have the most complete examination and survey, both from the engineering and land-valuing point of view, that can be carried out before we commit not only the State, but also the localities concerned and the owners of the benefited lands, to the expenditure and to the charges which will ensue from the expenditure.

As to the proposed new colleges, the Minister spoke of utilising possible buildings that may be available in some of those districts. I hope that in searching for possible buildings that may exist already, the Minister will not allow himself to be drawn away from the most suitable locations for these buildings and that he will not run the risk of a college being set up in a building that in actual practice will be found not to be suitable for the work of a college. There is also the point that if a building is not quite suitable, if it is an old building, the maintenance may very soon entail an expenditure that will be much greater than the cost of setting up a building in the most suitable location and that will be architecturally suited to the needs of the college.

As to the 1916 memorial, at first blush I question whether such a memorial should be put up in Glasnevin. If the intention is to set up the memorial in a graveyard, the question arises: Why not in Arbour Hill? The question of where the memorial should be put is a matter that requires a great deal of consideration, and I should like to know from the Minister if a definite decision as to the particular site has been taken and, if so, on what grounds?

On this question of the 1916 memorial, I feel that the Ministry ought to take the Dáil into its confidence a little more, even in regard to the design of the memorial itself. I can quite imagine that a particular bequest should be supplemented for a memorial in Glasnevin, quite apart from its being called the "1916 Memorial."

Wherever there is money asked for in connection with such a project, I think that at least the proposal itself should be made known to the Dáil. We may feel when it is all over that it is a memorial entirely unsuitable. I am not pretending for a moment that the design would not be something most beautiful, and that the judgment of the Ministry in approving of it would not be quite sound; but this kind of proposal should not be arranged in the dark, and then ask the Dáil to provide the funds, or any of the funds. I think the drawings, at least, might have been exhibited and we might be let know a little bit of the story that is intended to be perpetuated in stone, or whatever it may be.

We have knowledge, those of us who read the newspapers, that memorials in other places have created a tremendous amount of trouble for Ministers and others, because large numbers of people have considered them most unsuitable. If we wake up some morning when this memorial is established and find that in the public view it is most unsuitable, we will be all sorry we did not ask for some information as to the character of the memorial. We learn from the Minister that it is a statue—what of we do not know—with a canopy. That is the utmost information we have on the matter. I think a little more information might have been given before we are asked to vote the money.

I had not the advantage of being present when the Minister was making his statement regarding the Barrow drainage. I understand he has informed the House that half of the entire cost would require to be made up from local sources. I think the Government should take into consideration the ability of the local people to pay such a large amount as half the cost would involve. As the Minister must be well aware, at the present time the rates are abnormally high. In the county I represent it is considered that it will be exceedingly hard to collect the rates. At the same time, I welcome the statement of the Minister that the problem of the Barrow drainage is about to be tackled in earnest.

The Minister did not say that.

Do not be too sure of that.

I am under a disadvantage, as I was not here to hear the Minister's statement. Anyhow, he gave an intimation that the matter is being considered.

Yes—still being considered.

I hope it is being considered seriously this time. It was a long-standing reproach to the British Government that they allowed vast tracts of land to be flooded and rendered practically useless by reason of the want of a proper system of drainage of the Barrow. The annual flooding affects not alone the land, but also the health of the people living in the districts alongside the river. The unfortunate people who are forced to live near the flooded areas are injuriously affected, as are also the inhabitants of the towns through which the Barrow passes. I suggest that definite information should be given to the county councils of Kildare, Leix and Offaly—

And others, too.

—as to the proposals of the Government. I take it those bodies will be responsible more or less for collecting the levy. They ought to have definite information from the Government as to the proposals that will be put forward.

If Deputy Conlan read the Minister's speeches during the recent by-elections, and if he were present when the Minister was speaking a few minutes ago, he would have observed a difference. If the Minister is given credit for saying what he is reported to have said during the election, and if that is compared with his utterance this evening, one is forced to the conclusion that his language was much more definite this evening than it was when he spoke in Edenderry.

I said the very same in Mountrath as I said here to-day.

We must make allowances.

I am making allowances. On an occasion like this I think we are entitled to something in the nature of a more definite statement than one would expect to hear from the Minister when he is addressing electors during a by-election.

What did Deputy Davin say during the election?

Unfortunately I was not in the position of being able to make any promises. From the remarks of the Minister I gathered that the Executive Council have not yet come to any definite conclusion as to whether they will proceed with this work. They do not appear to have decided whether they will proceed with the work on the basis of the report made by Professor Meyer Peter, or whatever engineer was engaged. I understood from the Minister that one thing that will determine them in coming to a conclusion as to whether the work will be started in whole or in part will be the position from the point of view of unemployment in the catchment area. The Minister used the words "if employment is improved," and I was disposed to conclude from his language that the decision in regard to the work would depend on whatever unemployment existed in the area.

I do not want to seem too pessimistic, but I did not anticipate that employment will be so much improved within the next year or so that the work the scheme will give will not be of great importance.

One is forced to conclude from the very small amount we are asked to pass, £2,300, that if this is the extent of the preliminary work, very little actual work other than the preliminary work can be done. I think I remember the present Minister for Education, who was then Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, stating last July, previous to the adjournment, that it was hoped—expected—in the present financial year that a sum of £100,000 would be spent in preliminary work.

No such sum was ever mentioned.

I never mentioned the sum of £100,000. I am sorry the Deputy changed from the word "hoped" to "expected."

There is one thing that concerns the people in the affected areas and it is a thing that the Minister should make clear before this debate concludes; that is, the area upon which the local charge is to be made. The people in the counties of Leix, Offaly and Kildare—Deputy Conlan is very much alarmed in regard to the position in Kildare—have made the claim for years that if this work is to be carried out, and portion of the charge is to be put on a certain area, that charge should be placed on the people living in the catchment area and not on the people in the three counties, large portions of which would not benefit to any extent as a result of this drainage.

Neither would the catchment area as distinct from the benefited land.

Flooded land is one thing; the catchment area is another.

The catchment area would not benefit as distinct from the benefited land. The same argument would apply to the catchment area outside the benefited land as would apply to the counties as a whole. I mean the area distinct from that portion of the catchment area that could be described as benefited land—the flooded land.

If the matter has been considered seriously the Minister should be in the position to make a positive statement regarding the financial basis of the scheme. I would like to ascertain from the Minister what would be the number of men employed during the present year if the work is commenced. How long are these men likely to be employed? How long will it take to carry out the work? I dare-say it is somewhat unfair to ask how long it will take to carry out the work. I think the Minister has stated that all the reports in connection with the valuations and surveys have not been received. The Minister should have some idea as to the number of unemployed likely to be absorbed during the coming financial year, if it is decided to proceed with the work. A promise has been made that the work would be carried out during the coming year.

resumed the Chair.

Progress ordered to be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress reported. Ordered: That the Committee sit again to-morrow.
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