Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 May 1926

Vol. 15 No. 20

ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - VOTE 61—(POST OFFICE).

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I beg to move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,662,850 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na Roinne Puist agus Telegrafa, maraoin le Telefóna.

That a sum not exceeding £1,662,850 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, including Telephones.

MINISTER for POSTS and TELEGRAPHS (Mr. J.J. Walsh)

It has been announced that the anticipated expenditure for the current year for the Post Office is set down at £2,462,850, and the estimated revenue at £1,738,470, leaving a deficit of £724,380. From that deficit is to be deducted services for foreign and other departments totalling £175,642, leaving a net deficit of £548,738. This, of course, is an estimated deficit. This sum compares with the annual losses for the previous four years since the Treaty in the following way:—

For the year 1922-23 the loss was	£1,132,224
For the year 1923-24 the loss was	705,140
For the year 1924-25 the loss was	535,309
For the year 1925-26 the loss was	568,287

It will therefore be seen that whilst the estimated deficit for the present year is lower than that of last year, it is somewhat higher than for the year 1924-25. The Post Office being a commercial establishment must, necessarily, have audited accounts like other commercial establishments. In this case we happen to be two years behind time; the accounts for 1924-25 have now been audited and will, in due course, be presented to the Dáil. They reveal not a loss as shown here of £535,309, but a very much smaller one of £471,000. The difference is made up by having included in the Estimate the total cost of the abnormal pensions consequent on the Treaty, and, as in the case of the Commercial Account, having that abnormal thing capitalised. It works out somewhat in this way: In the present year a sum of £112,000 has been voted or is to be voted for pensions. This sum will, in reality, work out in the case of the Commercial Account at about £30,000. Therefore, the Commercial Account for the present year will not show a deficit of £548,738, but something in the region of £466,000. I do not wish to weary the Dáil with complicated figures of this kind. It should be understood that this Department differs from others. It is a commercial one and it is, perhaps, necessary to give these figures in detail because of that fact. I have just said that the last completed commercial balance sheet, that for the year ending March, 1925, reveals the actual loss in that year to have been £471,000.

It will be interesting to learn how this loss is allocated between the different services. A question bearing on that was put to me twelve months ago. The figures given then were speculative. I now have the exact figures.

On the postal side we lost	£290,000
On telegrams we lost	£178,000
On telephones we lost	£3,348

These are round figures, of course.

It may be as well to show how the postal loss of £290,000 is further allocated. In the case of letters we netted a sum of £231,000. The letter section of our business showed a gain to that extent. In the case of postcards we had a profit of £3,080. These were the only two items which showed a gain, the total being £234,080. On the other hand, under the head of postal we lost £119,500 on printed paper. This is generally termed printed paper matter as distinct from newspapers. On newspapers we lost £66,200, on parcels £104,329, on registered parcels £81,600, on money orders £11,660, and on postal orders £11,600. The total loss there is £524,199, as against the profit in the case of letters and postcards of £234,080, leaving a net loss on the postal side of £290,119.

Mr. BAXTER

Are we to understand these figures in this way—would it be correct to say that the costs of delivery of the total postal services were £524,199?

Mr. WALSH

No. There is no question of delivery in the case of money or postal orders. Delivery would come in in the case of letters and printed matter, newspapers, postcards, registered parcels, and parcels. Then you have also not only the delivery but the handling and the acceptance and all the other acts and transactions connected with the postal side. Last year we made a substantial reduction in telephones. The reduction amounted to £34,000. Notwithstanding this reduction the loss on telephones during the past year did not exceed £5,000. You understand that we had a profit last year of about £29,000, and, whilst that profit is wiped out, we have suffered in the telephone section the small loss of £5,000. We expect next year to turn that deficit into a surplus of about £2,500.

Mr. HEWAT

What was that last year?

Mr. WALSH

You mean for the year just finished? The loss was £5,000.

Mr. HEWAT

The previous year?

Mr. WALSH

The previous year we had a profit of about £29,000. We made a substantial reduction, and because of that reduction we anticipated a pretty substantial loss. The actual loss is about £5,000, and for the current year, because of the extension of the use of telephones, we anticipate a profit of £2,500 or £3,000. In the case of post cards, which were reduced last year from three-halfpence to a penny, we anticipated a consequential loss of £15,000. This loss has materialised. The net gain in postcard business has been very disappointing. It increased only to the extent of five per cent. It is sometimes argued that cheap postage will mean an extended use of the post. In England, when the postal rates were reduced from twopence to three-halfpence the consequential increase was about three per cent. In our case, where post cards were reduced, because of representations that were made to us from Chambers of Commerce and other places, from three-halfpence to a penny, the net increase has been five per cent. I do not think that anybody will consider that very satisfactory.

It might be well to give the Dáil some idea of the extent and nature of the work handled by the Service, taking for this purpose the year 1924-25, because of the fact that for that period we have been able to get a complete return, and the return has not been complete for the year just terminated. In the year 1924-5 the number of letters posted amounted to 123,000,000, delivered 130,000,000; printed papers posted 32,000,000, delivered 48,000,000; inland post cards posted 7,000,000, delivered 9,000,000; parcels posted 4,818,385, delivered 5,184,604; newspapers posted 8,698,000, delivered 11,000,000; telegrams forwarded—that is, ordinary private telegrams as distinct from Press—3,469,000, received 3,250,000; pages of Press forwarded 37,000, pages received 120,000; express delivery service performed—ordinary express letters handed in at counters— 10,516, and express telephone messages 664, making a total of 11,180; inland money orders issued for payment in the Saorstát 701,000, value £5,066,000, and for payment in Great Britain and Northern Ireland 152,000, value £851,000; foreign money orders issued 17,986, value £67,000; money orders of Great Britain and Saorstát origin 1,176,000, value £7,191,000, and from foreign countries 291,000, value £1,094,000; postal orders issued 3,572,000, value £1,437,000, and paid 2,702,000, value £1,189,000, and pension orders paid 6,162,000, value £2,742,000.

I merely give these figures to indicate to the Dáil, firstly the nature, and secondly the extent of the particular items. There are a good many others. We have followed up our process of extending the use of motor vehicles for the carriage of mails throughout the country. Not only have we extended our Post Office service, but we have also changed the old horse-vehicle method of conveyance in an increasing number of cases where contractors are concerned. That increase has gone steadily on. Doubt was expressed at the time that we hinted at the discontinuance of staffs on the cross-channel services, as to whether these services could be maintained from the timing point of view. We said then that we believed the setting up of a sorting office at Westland Row, and other changes which we were enabled to bring about, would make that possible, and we have certainly kept our word. Not only has the day staff been discontinued, but also the night staff, and the retrenchment brought about has resulted in adding £21,000 to our finances. I might mention that we intend building a large sorting office at Westland Row. The present office is suitable enough to go on with, but cannot be regarded in any sense as a permanent one. It is being somewhat extended, but plans have been drawn up for the erection of quite a big sorting office there, to deal exclusively and entirely with Dublin postal matters. In addition to the erection of this building, improvements in other buildings throughout the State are contemplated during the year. The Limerick Post Office is being extended; we are hard pressed for staffs down there. Improvements are also being made in Dalkey, Killiney, Dundrum, Terenure and some other offices around the country. The rebuilding of the Dublin Post Office is proceeding. It is hoped that the front block will be open for public business before Christmas. I expect also, that the Henry Street wing will be finished about that time. The front block, of course, is the one that we are mainly concerned with, though the other will be a help to centralise some of our work.

During the year, the foreign letter mail services have been extended. Sealed despatches are now exchanged between the Saorstát and Belgium, France, Germany, Holland, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, the United States, Canada, Newfoundland, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, India, the Federated Malay States, the Straits Settlement, Mexico and the Argentine.

It will, therefore, be seen, that practically all of our foreign mails are despatched direct. This is a policy that was initiated soon after the Treaty. It has been pursued pretty vigorously, until we have now almost reached the stage when a direct exchange of mails is made with practically all foreign countries. This, of course, refers to letter mails. Parcel mails come under a slightly different category. It will be understood that the volume of parcel mails from many of these countries would not justify a direct despatch, but it has so justified itself in the case of the United States, Canada and Germany. The number of parcels received from the United States has been calculated to exceed the number sent from this country annually by 137,000. Hitherto, this surplus of American parcels was delivered here without compensation from the United States authorities, and some twelve months ago, we requested a Convention on the subject. The United States, in the first instance, offered what we considered rather meagre compensation for that surplus delivery, but after many exchanges of correspondence we succeeded in getting 30 cents per parcel for that excess. That amounts to £9,000 a year. In other words, we have got a nest-egg here which very few people had even thought of. I wonder if it ever occurred to the British in their time, that £9,000 could be got for the delivery of American surplus parcels? The Cobh route has been utilised to the fullest possible extent for mails to and from the United States and Canada, and no less than six shipping companies now call at Cobh, and nearly 4,000 sacks of mails pass through there during the year. In this connection, we have followed the principle of giving encouragement to every steam-ship company that calls at Cobh. The individual encouragement certainly is not great, but it is something, and it is recognised at any rate that the State is prepared to assist and encourage that development. All the companies are quite pleased to get even the small quota that can be allocated to any one of them. I venture to say that this attitude has had something to say to the fact that we have so many steam-ship companies calling there now.

Arrangements have been made with the United States for the acceptance of Saorstát correspondence for transmission by the New York-San Francisco air mail service. The amount of correspondence for this service is not very great, but yet we find it necessary to maintain and to keep in contact with a service of that kind. In the case of the Cairo-Bagdad air mail service we find a very general use has been made of it. This service offers a short route to India, and the correspondence with India is pretty considerable. We find that the air rout to India is being fairly generally availed of here. The whole question of Saorstát air services and their possible utilisation for the conveyance of mails is at present being examined by an inter-Departmental Committee. Covenants for a direct exchange of money orders were concluded during the year between this Government and the Governments of Australia and South Africa, and it is expected that arrangements for a similar service with France and India will be completed in a short time. Direct exchanges are also in operation with the United States, Canada, New Zealand and Germany. More expeditious services are thereby afforded to the public, who are relieved of the charge of through-commission at the rate of 2d. in the pound formerly deducted in London. Formerly, these foreign money orders passed through London, and in all cases the deduction of 2d. in the pound was made for that service. In the case of this country that deduction has now terminated to the advantage of the sender of the money order.

Prior to the imposition of the 6d. delivery fee from the 1st September, 1924, about 19,600 post parcels were despatched weekly to places outside and 54,000 weekly were imported. According to the latest returns taken in November last the number of parcels despatched remains, roughly, the same, but the number of incoming parcels has fallen to 36,600 weekly. About 4,000 of these come from places other than Gt. Britain and the Six Counties. This leaves a balance of about 13,000 surplus incoming as against outgoing parcels, but the fact is that since the imposition of the tax the number of incoming parcels has fallen very appreciably. The revenue from the parcel delivery fee, non-dutiable parcels, is £33,000 a year approximately, and from the Customs clearance fee, dutiable parcels, £15,000 a year, giving a total of £48,000 a year. As to the inland parcel post cash-on-delivery service, Deputies, I am sure, will be anxious to know how it is progressing. It was introduced as an experiment in 1924 as a result of demands from Deputies and the general public. The extent of its utilisation, however, fell much short of anticipations. We found it hard at the outset, notwithstanding repeated efforts on our part, to advertise the service, to get it going and to get people to realise its utility.

Latterly, however, it has shown an improving tendency, though that tendency is practically confined to Dublin. We had hoped that agriculturists would have availed of this service to send goods to cities and towns, but I must say we have been disappointed. So far, at any rate, very little use is being made of it. In April of last year the number of parcels posted on this cash-on-delivery basis was 345. That was somewhat above the normal, because in May and June following the numbers were 288 and 258 respectively. January of this year shows an upward curve with 487; February, 436; and March, 594. As a matter of fact this cash-on-delivery business is practically doubling itself every year. Whether it will continue to do so or not is another thing, but that is the experience so far. Its institution has not resulted in loss to the service, but I cannot say that we have made any very great profit, though it will, however, pay its way and has been doing so.

I now propose to give a comparative statement of telephone development since 1922. In 1922 there were 194 exchanges in the country. I suppose Deputies know what an exchange is as distinct from a call office. An exchange is an office in which there are a number of subscribers, and a call office is merely a terminal post office. It terminates with the post office. That is the difference between the two. In 1922 the number of exchanges was 194, and in 1926, 388, showing an increase of 194 exchanges. In 1922 there were 552 call offices, and in 1926 that number had increased to 826, an increase of 274. As regards stations, otherwise subscribers, in 1922 there were 19,101, and in 1926, 22,946, an increase of 3,147. Rural party lines have only increased by 1, otherwise from 3 to 4. There are 19 subscribers. We endeavoured to extend this party line system during last year. The minimum cost per station is £4. It provides a service not only between the various subscribers on the single line, but also with the local exchange, free, gratis and for nothing, the total cost being only £4 in cases where there are three subscribers to the mile on the line. Up to now we have not been very successful in spreading this party line system. That is rather unfortunate, as that system is in very general use in other countries, particularly among farming communities. It may be that it will extend here later on, but up to now we have not had a very encouraging response. In the case of subscribers I have said that the net increase amounted to only 3,147. As a matter of fact, since 1922 we have actually put in over 12,000 installations, but we have lost over 8,000 subscribers in that time. The loss of many of that 8,000 could perhaps be traced to a reduction of the telephone service used by the military. At the same time it cannot be denied that many business people who had the telephone have given it up, I suppose through a decline in business, failures and causes of that kind.

We have extended the telephones very generally throughout the country and done our best to get new subscribers. It appears to me that the telephone habit has not yet caught on here and the public have not fully wakened up to the value of the telephone. We have done our part. We have made the service practically universal. Every town and village, I think I can truly say, will have an installation by the time the next report is presented here, yet the public do not seem to cut in. They do not seem to realise the commercial value of this service, and it can hardly be claimed that the telephone is expensive. A very substantial cut was made in it last year. A private person may have a telephone, let us say in Dublin, for a sum not exceeding £8 a year. That is not excessive, but nevertheless we find it difficult enough to get subscribers. I hope the outlook will change.

Mr. GOOD

Would the Minister say how that charge compares with the charge in other countries?

Mr. WALSH

It is slightly lower than that in England. I am not in a position to say how it compares with Continental countries, though I have a feeling that it is higher than in some of them. I am equally satisfied that the telephone must be made cheaper. I am satisfied on that, and whatever reduction can be made because of the financial position of the Post Office at any time should, I think, in the first instance pass its weight on to the telephone. I see a greater hope of development through this medium than through any other. During the past year 147 new exchanges and 101 new call-offices were opened, and 31 new trunk circuits with a mileage of 1,350 were erected. Eighty-seven additional telephone circuits were provided for the Gárda Síochána, and 45 life-boat saving stations were equipped. Western Deputies will possibly expect to hear something about the progress in Connaught. With the exception of Galway, Connaught had no telephones whatever until last year. In my last statement I promised a rapid development in that quarter, and I hope Deputies will realise that I am trying to keep my word. Development in western areas is progressing rapidly, and new exchanges have been opened at Roscommon, Tuam, Loughrea, Ballymote, Manorhamilton and Castlerea. The programme for this year includes exchanges at Carrick-on-Shannon, Boyle, Ballaghaderreen, Bundoran, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Claremorris, Ballina, Castlebar and Westport.

Mr. WHITE

You only touch on the fringe of Donegal; you just skirt the border at Ballyshannon.

Mr. WALSH

We intend to construct, during the coming year, 20 additional trunk circuits to meet increased traffic and about 20 junction circuits which will be required for new exchanges and the continuance of underground schemes. We intend also to put up a number of overhead trunk lines, which will connect with existing exchanges, to meet increased traffic and to serve proposed new exchanges.

Work in connection with the provision of automatic exchanges at Ship Street and Merrion Street and the replacement of private branch exchange equipment in preparation for automatics, is proceeding. New equipment for the existing exchange at Limerick and for constructional alterations at Cork, Limerick and Cobh is on hands. We are converting a great number of the smaller telegraph circuits into telephones. The telephone is more easily manipulated, and it is also possible of utilisation as a medium of public call.

Telephone kiosks have been installed at several railway stations. One has been erected at College Green. The delay in erecting others is due to the difficulty of securing sites from the Dublin Commissioners. We are extending the system of kiosks to other cities.

I mentioned earlier that we lost on telegraphs, in the year 1924-5, £178,000. That loss is continuing to grow. Telegraph services are being replaced everywhere possible by telephones. I see no future for the telegraphic service. I believe it will finally be reduced to Press work and long-distance traffic. It is certainly a reducing service. It is also a very costly service to the State, as I pointed out on previous occasions.

Mr. GOREY

It is costly within the mile limit.

Mr. WALSH

Every telegram costs the State, in addition to the charge of one shilling for twelve words, an extra shilling. That means that the taxpayer contributes one shilling for every message sent over the telegraph wires. Telegraph porterage fees collected during the current year amount to about £25,000. The figure for porterage fees during the previous year was, roughly, £41,000. I attribute this decline to the extension of the telephone——

Mr. GOREY

Nothing of the sort.

Mr. WALSH

—and also to the fact that people are not sending telegrams because they are learning sense, or have less money to spend, or rather to throw away. During the year—since the date of the last report—examinations have been held for the following classes:—Boy messengers at Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford; boy messengers at provincial offices generally; girl probationers at Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford; specially nominated auxiliary postmen for provincial offices; skilled workmen, engineering branch; storemen in the stores branch; post office assistants, grade B, confined to temporary officers and ex-National Army candidates with necessary telegraphic and other qualifications; and clerical officers, confined to Post Office assistants and postmen.

The Dáil will be interested to hear something about the working of the Savings Bank. This is a new service, new to the extent that the work was carried out in its entirety in London formerly; we were merely collecting agents, and now we are solely in control. The balance due to depositors on the 31st December, 1924, amounted to £2,124,000. Deposits by cash during the year 1925 amounted to £1,181,605, and the number of depositors 449,460. The gross total of deposits on the 31st December, 1925, was £3,306,304. Withdrawals during the year 1925 numbered 197,772, and the amount totalled £927,263. The balance due to depositors on the 31st December, 1925, was £2,372,279.

Savings Certificates form another branch in regard to which we are responsible to the Minister for Finance. The balance due to investors on the 31st March, 1925, was £1,175,285. Sales of Savings Certificates during the year ending 31st March, 1926, numbered 3,210, and the total of the purchase money was £462,571.

We now come to the stores and factory. On the 1st January, 1925, we had 250 hands employed in the factory. A year later that number was reduced to 154, contracts which were formerly completed at St. John's Road having been handed out to private contractors. That would be one of the main reasons for the decline. The Stores Department of the Post Office handled the following contracts during the year:— For the Post Office and common services, £173,000; for use of other Government Departments, £168,000. Out of these two sums, £258,000 was spent on Irish manufactured articles; £48,000 was spent on British manufactured articles and £35,000 went to other countries. The creosoting of telegraph poles was formerly, in the main, done in England. I believe some small quantities were done in Belfast, but very little, if any were done in the Saorstát. Now all the creosoting that has to be done is done here. Two new factories, one in Cork, and one in Dublin, are largely maintained through this post-office work.

Mr. GOOD

Has a saving been effected?

Mr. WALSH

No loss has been suffered, at any rate, and a saving has been effected if you take into consideration the extra wages kept in the country.

It will, perhaps, be no harm to refer to a question, which has been mentioned more than once in recent times, that of civil servants who retired under Article 10 of the Treaty. I think it has been alleged, on more than one occasion, that the Government is responsible for many of those people quitting the service. Here is our return in regard to the post-office. The number of applications received, up to 31st March, 1926, was 1,026; the number forwarded to the Department of Finance, up to that date, was 1,021; the number allowed to leave the post office was 658, the number disallowed 69, and the number of withdrawals was 99. Ninety-nine per cent. of the total applications were resisted. It is well to remember that.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is the Minister able to give us any figures as to the number of applicants since 31st March, 1926?

Mr. WALSH

These figures are up to 31st March, 1926.

Mr. JOHNSON

But I desire to find out whether applications are coming in up to date, and to know the number from 31st March, 1926?

Mr. WALSH

I understand the number has been approximately about one hundred. Last year several Deputies advocated the adoption of a reduced rate for local letters and parcels. I think I am right in saying Deputy Good associated himself with the proposal, or perhaps it was Deputy Hewat. It was one of them at any rate. We have gone carefully into the question, but found that it would result in a very heavy loss, and, if applied to, let us say, the three cities of Cork, Waterford and Dublin, it would mean a loss of something like £70,000 or £75,000. We do not anticipate that the volume of correspondence consequent upon that decrease would appreciate very much. It is our opinion that it would not. We have given the matter a considerable amount of consideration and we are satisfied that we would not be justified in embarking on a reduced charge for local deliveries.

Some Deputies last year suggested that we ought to facilitate the farming community at fairs by keeping the post offices open up to 8 o'clock, or even later. Deputy D'Alton was specially associated with that request. We accepted the proposal, and put it into practice for a year, but, I am sorry to say, it has not been utilised. I will just give a case in point. In Ballina, where eight fairs were held during the year, we did not transact one single item of business in these extra hours during any one of the eight extensions.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

resumed the Chair.

Mr. WALSH

In Castlebar, where there were eight fairs we had merely two transactions. The same story is to be told regarding the other centres in which the experiment was tried, and I do not think we would be justified in continuing to incur the expenses of keeping offices open up to a later hour than has been provided for the normal business.

Mr. GOOD

Of course they are opened at an earlier hour in the morning, and that will continue?

Mr. WALSH

Yes.

Mr. NORTON

Does the Minister refer to morning opening or evening opening?

Mr. WALSH

Evening opening.

Mr. NORTON

You mean that the fairs were held in the evenings?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Do not the evening openings refer to the evenings before the fair?

Mr. WALSH

Yes, to the evenings before the fair. I have referred to a number of the main services, but there are a number of other services which I have not touched upon, such as Old Age Pensions, issue of Unemployment Insurance, National Health Insurance, Entertainment Tax. Inland Revenue Stamps, the issue of Dog and Inland Revenue Licences, Army and Navy allowance forms and the collection of rates in certain counties. These services, though apparently insignificant, are nevertheless pretty important, and they occupy quite a considerable part of our time. There are other similar services to which I have not referred, but I think I have sufficiently dealt with these main ones. Two years ago I predicted that within the next half a dozen years the postal service should pay its way. It is moving in that direction, not quite as rapidly as I had anticipated, but nevertheless it is moving towards a balance. The revenue has been declining steadily, unfortunately. In 1923-24 our revenue amounted to £1,752,000; in 1924-25 £1,704,000, and in 1925-26 it dropped to £1,688,000.

In other words, though we economised to the extent of about £100,000 during those years, we lost practically that sum through declining revenue. If business should increase, and assuming, also, though it may be optimistic to assume it, that the cost of living will decline, I venture to say we will be moving fairly rapidly to the ideal which I held out. In any case, I do not think we will suffer a further decline in revenue. During the last three or four months I noticed that our revenue was on the upper grade. It possibly portends increasing business in the country. As a matter of fact, we have anticipated an increased revenue of about £30,000 for this year. I hope this will materialise. There is nothing else that I wish to say in connection with the report, except that the staff has continued to give loyal service. As far as the public are concerned they seem reasonably well satisfied with that service. We are doing everything possible to meet the desires of not only the commercial community, but the public generally. I do not suppose that we can satisfy everybody; that is a rather high ideal to aim at. But on the whole I am satisfied that the public realises that the Post Office service is satisfactory.

Mr. JOHNSON

Before the Minister closes may I ask him if he can give us any more information regarding the excess of received messages over sent messages, whether there is any payment made in respect of that excess?

Mr. WALSH

What kind of messages?

Mr. JOHNSON

Say Press messages. The messages sent were 37,000 and the messages received 120,000. That is a big excess. I wonder is there any equivalent payment similar to the payment in respect of parcels from America. I gathered that there was a considerable loss in the telegraph service, as a whole, and that very great excess presumably does not represent any payment on account of those messages. What I desire to know is, is there any payment made in respect of messages received in excess of those that we send?

Mr. WALSH

There is an adjustment in regard to Press messages but not in regard to ordinary messages. I must say that that was a pretty tough question, if the Deputy would not mind my saying it. It is one that I had not gone into.

Mr. JOHNSON

I imagine that the loss in this equalisation payment has been considerable.

Mr. WALSH

We get an adjustment in the case of Press messages but not in the case of ordinary telegrams.

Mr. WILSON

Are we to take it that you get no payment at all for your services in connection with the old age pensions?

Mr. WALSH

Oh, yes.

Major COOPER

There are two things that I want to say. One is that I think the Post Office are entitled to great credit for the manner in which they have adapted themselves to the situation arising out of the strike in Great Britain. The Post Office, it seems to me, have explored every avenue in order to get mails away both to Great Britain and to the Continent of Europe, and they are entitled, I think, to the gratitude of the Dáil and the community on that ground. The other point is less satisfactory. The Government programme allots three hours for this Vote. Of these three hours one hour and ten minutes have been occupied by the Minister. I do hope that, as we have been invited repeatedly by the Minister for Finance, and other Ministers, to criticise them, that we shall be given a fair opportunity of doing so.

Mr. GOOD

Could the Minister give us some information as to the nature of the contracts carried out by the Stores Department? He simply gave us bulk figures, showing the total amount of the contracts without giving us any details. Could he give us also some information as to whether competitive estimates were obtained by any of these Departments?

Mr. WALSH

In all cases competitive estimates have been obtained for contracts for the Stores Department. Estimates are given by the Government Contracts Committee. The Stores Department is engaged, of course, mainly in repair work. The contract work is a very small section, scarcely worth mentioning. As I have stated, we have pretty well got out of the contract business, and this staff of 150 odd men, to which I referred, is engaged mainly in Post Office repair work which we must necessarily do. We save pretty considerably on it.

Mr. GOOD

The Minister mentioned work to the extent of £170,000 odd that was carried on by the Stores Department.

Mr. WALSH

These were contracts given. The Deputy must not mix up the Stores Department with the Contracts. They are two different Departments. The Contracts Department is under the manager of the Stores Department. The contracts given by the Stores Department may be in many categories—boots for the army, police and other servants of the State. The items to which I referred deal with that, not with the John's Road contract section or factory section.

Mr. GOOD

Were these £170,000 worth of contracts obtained in competition?

Mr. WALSH

Of course they were.

Mr. GOOD

There is only one other question that I want to put to the Minister. He mentioned about attracting steamers to the port of Cobh. Could he tell us the nature of the attraction?

Mr. WALSH

I think I mentioned that the 40,000 sacks of mails which we annually despatch through that port is an inducement.

Mr. GOOD

There is no other inducement?

Mr. WALSH

No.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Before we come to the sub-heads, I would like to say a few words on the main question of policy. I want to say that while I appreciate the efforts which have been made to economise in the Post Office service, and while I am glad to see that the Post Office is being run at a smaller loss than in past years, I think we should recognise that the Post Office is a business concern, and should be so regarded by those in charge, and that it should be run so as to put it on a paying basis, rather than that the Minister must come to the Dáil each year and report a deficit. There are just one or two matters that I want to refer to, which may be regarded as questions of general policy. I want to talk about the telephone service which the Minister has referred to, and with particular advertence to the party-line system. I was very sorry to hear from the Minister that during the past year there has only been an increase of one party-line. I spoke on this matter last year, and I urged the Minister to get this party-line system taken up by the rural population. I am sorry to see that it has been so badly responded to. I have been thinking about it recently, and I believe one of the difficulties regarding a party-line installation in the country districts is that the people of the towns have not taken up the telephone system in the way that they should. It is very little use for farmers joining together for a party-line installation, if, when they have taken it up, they cannot call up the people whom they want to call up in the towns.

My experience of the use of telephone systems in other countries was that every business establishment in the towns had an installation, so that a farmer or anybody living in the rural districts who wanted to call them up could get them, but as things stand at present we find that there are only three or four telephone installations in small towns, and they are not very often in business establishments at all. I am inclined to think that before we can hope for any great success in the establishment of the party-line system, we will first need to get people to take the telephone system more readily than they have up to the present. That I regard as an inevitable development. What we must do is to try to encourage and by every kind of advertisement and propaganda, try to make business people realise it is to their own interest to install telephones. We hear a lot about the backwardness of the farming community. My opinion is that if it is backward, it is certainly not alone in that position and the business people in the small towns are just as backward. I do not know if there are any other people who are slower to take advantage of modern improvements, but I would suggest that every effort should be made to get business people in towns to install telephones. Then we can get the country people to respond. I think it should be pointed out to them that it will surely be a great advantage to them, from the point of view of business, that it will facilitate business, and perhaps keep business away from the larger cities.

I am sorry the Minister has not seen his way to make some reduction in postal charges. The Minister has shown that his revenue has decreased from year to year. I am inclined to think that possibly the best way to increase revenue is to make a decrease in the postal charges. I think it is generally found that people respond quickly to any decrease in postal charges, and if the price of a stamp for ordinary letters were reduced to three-halfpence I believe that the response might actually bring in a greater revenue than the Minister gets on the twopenny stamps. The present price certainly hampers and retards business. People are slow to write letters when it would cost twopence for a stamp. The same thing applies to charges for the delivery of telegrams in the rural districts. That is nothing new. We have made strong complaints already about it, and it is a pretty serious grievance, that we who live in outlying districts, have to pay such enormous charges. I live just beyond the three-mile limit, and I have to pay 1/6 for my telegrams on delivery. That means, for instance, that if I am going home, and if I telegraph to someone to meet me at the station, it costs 2/6, including delivery charge. It would be almost as cheap for me to hire a car at the station as to telegraph for someone to come and meet me. I would almost suggest that it would be worth the Minister's while to risk a certain loss in this regard, in the first case. There is also the point of view of policy and general principle, and we maintain that the same privileges which are granted to the urban population should be granted to the rural population, that we contribute as much, if not more, to the upkeep of the State and the Post Office as they do, and we should have the same rights as they have in regard to postal deliveries.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would like to ask Deputy Heffernan, if I might, to tell us exactly what is meant by this plea for treating the postal service as a business service, that it should be put on a paying basis, that it should not be necessary for the Minister to come to the Dáil to report a deficit. I felt curious to know how the Deputy would follow that proposition, but I was amazed when I heard him calling for a three-halfpenny rate on letters, following his demand that it should be put on a business basis.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I thought I had explained that a reduction of the postal fees to 1½d. would actually increase the revenue by increasing the number of letters.

Mr. JOHNSON

It is assumed by the Deputy, not having listened to the Minister, that a decrease in the rates would increase the revenue. He also claims that the same facilities should be given to rural residents as are given to the towns. While I am prepared to concede that point, to a very great degree, I realise from the Minister's statement that it would be impossible even to give the same attention to rural services unless he received the profit which he derives from the town services. We were told there was a very considerable profit on the distribution of letters, and, having heard the Minister, I am pretty confident that the profit arises from the posting and delivery of letters in towns and not in the country districts. If we are going to put this on a business basis it means that the rural services will have to be cut very much further than at present. I think it is desirable that we should know exactly what is the policy represented by Deputy Heffernan in this matter. Is it desired that the Post Office should be put on a business basis, that services which are not profitable will be cut, and that only services which are on a business basis economic shall be continued? I think we should know what is the desire of that section of the community represented by Deputy Heffernan and his colleagues, because the urban districts could be run upon a lower-priced letter service if there were not the call for equivalent services in country districts. If Deputy Heffernan really represents the public opinion of the country population in this matter, then those of us who might claim to speak more particularly for the urban districts might put in a plea for lower charges for letters and telephones.

Mr. WILSON

Deputy Johnson has pointed out that there was a profit on letters and postcards and he presumed that was in the cities. The Deputy said nothing about the tremendous loss of £524,990 on printed papers, newspapers and parcels. Were these for the country?

Mr. JOHNSON

Most of them.

Mr. WILSON

Newspapers and printed papers! Would it not be just as well to assume that the losses in that particular Department of the Post Offices were attributable to the cities, just as he assumed the gain was attributable in the other case? Deputies on these benches are hoping for the day that the Post Office will be a paying concern. The Minister has given us reason for that hope. He stated that if the cost of living comes down and if the trade of the country increases, we shall, in a short time, at the present rates reach equilibrium. That is a very reasonable proposition if it can be done. While we feel that it is a mistake to differentiate against us in the delivery of telegrams, we would be prepared, in view of the forecast which the Minister has given, to wait for a year or so before making a change. That opinion does not fall in with that of my colleagues, many of whom are suffering very severely by the present arrangement. I suffer myself, inasmuch as I have to pay 1/- on every telegram I receive. As the Minister has pointed out I realise that on every telegram there is a loss of 1/-. Last year where telegrams had to be delivered the delivery fees represented £40,000, which if abandoned, would have to be added to the big loss of £178,000.

Mr. WALSH

£25,000 last year and £41,000 the previous year.

Mr. DAVIN

On porterage?

Mr. WALSH

Yes.

Mr. WILSON

The amount of porterage collected last year was £41,000. If the demand we are making for the same rates as the dwellers in the urban areas was granted, that £41,000 would be lost as well as the £178,000.

Mr. WALSH

That is right.

Mr. WILSON

After all, a loss of £41,000 in a half a million is not such a large amount. As you are out to lose half a million you might as well lose the £41,000 and place all sections on the one basis. That proposal, of course, will not coincide with the proposal to make the service a paying one. To that extent I think we are a little bit inconsistent. The point I wanted to make was that Deputy Johnson referred to the gain in the urban areas, but neglected to point out that there was also a loss in the urban areas in connection with the other services.

Mr. WHITE

My colleague, Deputy Heffernan, complained of the apathy of business people in small towns not going in for telephone extension. I come from a small town where we are very anxious to have the telephone extended.

Mr. WALSH

What town is that?

Mr. WHITE

I can tell the Minister and the Dáil that the Post Office authorities will not meet us on any sort of a reasonable basis. There is at present a vacant line of poles between Carndonagh and Buncrana which could be used for the extension of the telephone, but the figure that we are expected to pay for that extension is prohibitive. I also complain about too much money being spent on broadcasting, while too little is spent on the extension of the telephone in the county that I come from, which is a sort of no man's land. The Minister mentioned that extensions are being made in various parts of the South and West of Ireland, including Bundoran and Ballyshannon, but they are only on the outskirts of Tirconaill. I do not think that the county I have the honour to represent, Donegal, is being treated very fairly by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in the matter of telephone extension. I mentioned this matter in 1924 and 1925, but we have got no further than an impossible demand on subscribers.

With regard to letter delivery, I am not in a position to apportion the blame for what happens between the Post Office and the Lough Swilly Railway Co. in a big area in the county I come from. We got letters recently at 6.30 in the evening. Outgoing letters are despatched at 11.50 a.m., which is the only collection for the day. I would suggest to the authorities of the Postal Department that they should consider the question of having a motor mail service put on, both ways, between Derry and Innishowen. There is a big volume of business in the area, and I believe if the matter was gone into there would not be a serious loss on it. The loss that would be sustained in running a motor mail service from Derry City to Innishowen would be a very small item when compared with that half million or seven hundred thousand pounds of which Deputy Wilson spoke. It would be like dropping a needle in Lough Swilly. I hope that these grumbles which I have given expression to will receive, if not practical consideration, at least sympathetic consideration from the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Mr. DAVIN

I desire to support the plea put forward by Deputy Heffernan in so far as it applies to the sending of telegrams at a fixed rate, which would include delivery as well as forwarding. This question was raised in the Dáil and was debated at considerable length twelve months ago. At that time Deputies of all parties expressed the view that the Minister should consider the advisability of inaugurating a system which would enable telegrams to be sent at a charge which would include the cost of delivery. The Minister has maps of the Free State. He knows where his post offices are situated and he knows the farthest point that any post office is from a particular house. With that information he should be in a position to fix an average inclusive charge. That might mean the risk of a loss. but it would be on a gradually reduced basis, keeping in view the time when the Telegraph Department will pay its own way, as the Minister hopes.

Mr. WALSH

Might I say that there is such a system in vogue? The sender of a telegram is invited, in all cases where the official suspects that there will be a porterage delivery charge, to make a deposit of so much per mile to cover the delivery.

Mr. GOREY

Telegrams will not be sent in some cases except they are paid for at the source.

Mr. DAVIN

That is not generally known to people who are in the habit of sending telegrams.

Mr. WALSH

Perhaps they do not desire to know it.

Mr. DAVIN

I think Deputies will agree that in the vast majority of cases the persons who send the telegrams are the people who are at the advantage by the sending of the message. I think there should be some attempt made to fix a charge which would be inclusive —even a higher minimum charge than is in operation to-day.

Mr. WALSH

The position is this: The sender of a telegram addresses it, say, to Ballymurphy, Ballyporeen. He is invited to state what distance Ballymurphy is from Ballyporeen. If it is two miles he is invited to pay the porterage charge. He can refuse to pay that if he likes.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

As one who sends a good many telegrams, I may say that I was never invited to pay the porterage charge, although I was often anxious to do so.

Mr. DAVIN

The Minister knows the revenue and cost to the service and it should be an easy matter to fix a prepaid figure which would include forwarding as well as delivery.

Mr. WALSH

Does the Deputy mean a general figure regardless of distance?

Mr. DAVIN

Yes. When you come to fix a charge of that kind, you will have to arrive at an average. Having in mind what the Minister stated as to his hopes in regard to the Post Office as a whole, including this Department, it should be an easy matter to make this arrangement. The matter was mentioned twelve months ago and approved, I think, by all sides of the House, and I am surprised that the Minister has not given us any reason why he has not complied with that request.

Mr. WALSH

Do I understand the Deputy to suggest that I should see that telegrams pay for themselves— that not only should the charge cover the State cost of transmission, but the cost of delivery?

Mr. DAVIN

I assume that if the Post Office is working at a loss which will be gradually reduced, the Minister should take into consideration the average loss on the working of this Department the same as any other Department, and gradually work towards putting the Post Office, including this Department, on a business basis. If it is necessary to charge 1/3 for forwarding and delivery instead of 1/-, I say that 1/3, to include all service, should be fixed instead of the 1/- minimum. That is clearly what was approved by the House 12 months ago, and, I think, two years ago. If it is not feasible, of course we cannot expect the Minister to do impossibilities.

Arising out of that aspect of the question, I should like to know if telegraph offices in rural areas are under any obligation to see that there is immediately available a messenger who will deliver telegrams forthwith. Five weeks ago I happened to be in my constituency. An urgent telegram was sent to me and was received in the local post office about 2.30 p.m. It was handed to me, four miles away, at 5.5 p.m. As a result of the telegram, I had to catch the mail train back to Dublin. I caught the train, but I had to leave my wife and family behind. I did not like to make a written complaint because I had no desire to get anybody into trouble, but I discussed the matter with the people concerned. The cause of the delay in that case was that there was nobody immediately at hand to deliver the telegram. The person who was in the habit of delivering telegrams was digging his garden some distance away, and the people in the Post Office had some difficulty in getting him.

Mr. WALSH

I presume he was a casual messenger.

Mr. DAVIN

When an office is open for the receipt of telegrams, there should be some messenger immediately available to deliver the telegrams. That is only fair when payment is made for the sending of the telegram. I should like to know what are the obligations on telegraph offices to ensure that a telegram is delivered in accordance with the regulations.

Mr. WHITE

Does the Deputy suggest that all telegrams should be increased to 1/3, or that the increase should only be in the case of telegrams to rural areas?

Mr. DAVIN

I suggested that instead of the sender paying portion of the cost of sending a telegram, and the receiver, who in most cases does not benefit by the receipt of the telegram, paying another portion, the charge should be standardised and a payment should be made to the Post Office by the sender which would include delivery.

Mr. WHITE

Of all telegrams?

Mr. DAVIN

The same as letters.

Mr. WHITE

Why should the cost of telegrams be increased in cities and towns?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

This point cannot be argued now. Deputy Davin will please proceed.

Mr. DAVIN

In the same way Deputy White might write a letter to Tirconaill and instead of putting a two-penny stamp on it, put a penny stamp on it, leaving it to his wife to pay a penny when it reaches her.

Mr. WHITE

That is not an analogous case at all. It is very far-fetched.

Mr. DAVIN

There is one other matter I desire to raise. It arises out of the reorganisation of the areas when vacancies occur in country districts. Cases have come under my notice. I sent one or two to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs as an illustration. Whenever there is a reorganisation or a vacancy I think, personally— I am not sure if Deputy Norton takes the same view—all things being equal, that the married man should get the preference, certainly where a reduction of wages is involved.

MINISTER for POSTS and TELEGRAPHS

You are referring to postmen.

Mr. DAVIN

Yes. I came across a case recently where a man with a wife and four children had his wages reduced by 50 per cent., and he said that the wages of unmarried people in the same area were not interfered with. I may say, while I raise these matters, in connection with this Vote, that on almost any occasion on which it has been my privilege to put any matter before the Minister, especially in connection with telephones in the country, I met with the greatest consideration, and where the Minister has not complied with any request with which I was associated, he was always in a position to give a good answer as to why he could not do so.

Mr. GOREY

I regret very much to have to refer to this matter again this year. I referred to it last year, the year before, and I think the year before that. I regret the attitude of Deputies who put the personal view-point before the national view-point, and who expressed the view that, because they live near a telegraph office, they deserve facilities which the residents in the rural areas do not deserve. I want to know on what right they can claim better service as citizens than any other members of the community. I asked the Minister last year to give us the total cost of this service, both within and without the two mile limit in cities and towns. There is a free delivery in cities and large towns and within a mile of the rural telegraph offices. I said last year that the loss outside those limits was defrayed absolutely by the charge for delivery recovered from the people who received a telegram. It was not contradicted then. I am waiting to hear it contradicted now, and to hear the number of telegrams which were delivered last year and the year before outside this particular area, how that compares with the total number of telegrams sent out, and also how both balances with the total loss. The Minister tells us that £178,000 of an annual loss was suffered on the telegraph service last year. £25,000 was recovered on the delivery of telegrams outside the limit, and £41,000 the year before, showing a loss of £16,000 in the two years. But there is a loss of £178,000 on the service still. The people of the country have to bear that loss in addition to paying £41,000 the year before last, which came directly out of the receipt of telegrams outside the limit. I make the assertion again that the cost of all the telegrams sent and delivered outside the mile limit and the two-mile limit did not amount to more than one shilling a telegram, taking into consideration the mean between the small and the large charge. Therefore, the charges for delivery cover the cost of delivery from the post office to the recipient, and the total loss in the telegraph service is confined to the two-mile and the mile limit. We are asked, calmly, to bear this loss. The people who pay £40,000 for their own service are also paying their share of the loss, and we are asked to assume that is fair play, and that that is the way the citizens of this country ought to understand equality and equity.

I do not hold the view that this service ought to be a paying concern, because I do not see any possibility of it. It is one of those services in which people demand equal rights. The nation does not seem to have sufficient business to carry on this as a paying proposition. If we are to come down to the basis that everything must pay for itself I say this is one of the things in which an exception must be made. I say, further, that the charges for delivery made in rural areas provide more than the whole payment made to the telegraph messenger in the rural areas. I challenge contradiction on that. A messenger is paid in the rural areas by the charges of the outer circle. The outer people are paying for the service.

Mr. WALSH

No.

Mr. GOREY

They are. I know the weekly wages which messengers are getting. I made it my business to find out and I found, in one office, that there is even more coming in than the messenger is getting. If we are to lose £178,000 for the charmed circle inside I think we ought to be satisfied to lose an additional £25,000 for the people outside. They are as good citizens. They are not financially well off. They have to live on the mountain side, but that is not their fault. It is more their misfortune. The people inside have a lot to be thankful for. They have access to villages and post offices, and why they should be placed in this favoured position I cannot understand. If the telegraph service is to pay for itself, instead of a shilling charge 1/3 or 1/6 for every telegram sent out, and then every citizen of the State will be paying an equal amount for his telegram.

The whole thing will be shared by everybody, but at present those outside are carrying their load and carrying the other fellow's load as well. If that is fair play, I cannot understand it. I have yet to meet anybody with intelligence who would defend the position, and I have yet to meet anyone with public spirit who would say that residents in rural areas do not deserve the same consideration and the same services as people inside.

Mr. HALL

I support the views expressed by Deputy Gorey. Like him, I cannot understand why people living in rural districts, say, one mile from a town, are placed in a less favourable position in regard to national services than people living in the cities and towns. Many people living in rural areas complain about being called upon to pay more for such services than their more fortunate brethren who live in towns or villages provided with telegraph offices. Deputy Gorey believes that nothing more than a shilling is paid.

Mr. GOREY

I know there is, but it would be an average charge as between 6d. and, say, 2/-.

Mr. HALL

I know a particular locality in a county, which is not by any means badly off for facilities, in which there are, at least, three families paying 2/6 porterage on all telegrams delivered. One gentleman, I understand, receives as many as twenty-four or thirty telegrams per week.

Mr. WALSH

Is he a betting man?

Mr. HALL

Not by any means. I would like to hear from the Minister as to whether it is reasonable to ask a person in a rural district, say, two. or two and a half miles from a post office to pay 2/6 for the delivery of telegrams, while a big business firm in Dublin can receive telegrams every five or ten minutes during the day at no cost whatever. Why that distinction? Why not do as Deputy Gorey suggests? If the Minister wishes to meet the cost of sending and delivering telegrams, why not apportion the cost over every individual who uses the telegraph service, and why not raise the rate to 1/3, or even 1/6, and thus allow the sender to pay for his telegrams? It is a most ridiculous proposition to ask any person in the country to take a telegram from a messenger with one hand, and with the other hand out a shilling, two shillings, or two and sixpence for its delivery. It is probable that a wire would have no particular value and that it probably is from a person simply saying, "Please meet me to-morrow at such a place." Its contents may be of no material value, yet the recipent has to pay 6d., 1/-, 1/6, 2/- or perhaps 2/6 for it. It is time that the Minister took some steps to meet that situation, and, in my opinion, it would be best met by making everyone pay the same amount.

Mr. McCULLOUGH

I would like to deal with another matter which has, perhaps, rather an opposite effect to the complaint in regard to telegrams.

I mentioned the same matter last year, namely, the unfair incidence of the parcel delivery tax. The tax has my wholehearted approval, as I know that it was directed towards making those who are doing their shopping outside the country, pay in some measure for the cost of delivery. Until we get a measure of industrial development, perhaps through the medium of higher or more extended tariffs, many business houses in the city will, perforce, be compelled to get many of their requirements for their clients from across the water. Every well ordered business house is naturally anxious to treat its clients with promptitude and attention, and thus they cannot keep their clients waiting for a particular article manufactured outside the Saorstát until they get a number of similar orders. Consequently, nearly every business house is often required to send an order separately, and on each parcel received it has to pay the ordinary charge and, in addition, the parcel tax. It occurs to me that some method might be found by which a rebate might be given on parcels exceeding a certain number, so that a business house might submit a return at the end of a year and apply for a rebate on such parcels as exceed a certain number. In that manner the charge on business houses in that respect would be lessened. Many of them receive parcels daily, or twice a day, and in such instances the charge would amount to a couple of pounds. If a man who delivered such parcels went with one parcel to a district, such as that of which Deputy Gorey spoke, he would get sixpence, though it requires ten times the amount of time and energy to deliver such a parcel, as to deliver a huge number of parcels to a city firm. I would also support Deputy White in regard to the extension of the telephone service in Tirconaill. I must say that whenever I approached the Minister on the matter he has been able to show that every effort has been made in that direction, but I would point out to him that Tirconnail, owing to present conditions, is suffering from many disabilities, and its trading system has been entirely upset. It would not be asking too much of the Department, even at some disadvantage—possibly it could not be done as advantageously as in other parts of the Saorstát—to make the telephone extension in that county more rapidly, and to make some concessions to small towns and districts desirous of such extension.

Mr. HEWAT

I am afraid the examination of the accounts of the Minister in detail is not possible within the time limit that has been placed on the Vote and the general nature of the discussion that has taken place on the Estimate. I therefore wish to concentrate on the aspect of the case which appeals to me particularly. We have before us an Estimate for an expenditure of £2,462,000. The Minister indicated the very substantial loss that has been and is going to be incurred in the carrying on of the functions of the Post Office. The only cheery part of his Estimate, as far as that is concerned, was the statement that he hopes to get this deficit wiped off within a certain number of years. I commend the Minister in that view of the running of the Post Office service. There is a reason at the moment why there is a loss on the service. It is easily explainable. It is a business concern. That is what the Post Office is under a monopoly. At all events I think no Deputy ought to put forward a proposition that the Post Office should, for ever, or for longer than is absolutely necessary, be run at a charge on the country as a whole. When Deputies take the view that the Post Office is necessarily a non-self-supporting organisation I think they are raising a wrong headline. I consider in criticising the Post Office accounts that if there is a loss, the question to be asked is why there is a loss, and we should be able to explain the deficits as they occur.

Now the explanation I presume for the loss in the working of the Post Office is the very scattered and sparse population of the country districts. There has been put forward a claim in the Dáil that as regards telegrams, which are a very substantial source of loss to the Post Office, there should be delivery in all rural areas free of all porterage. I think in that connection that the porterage is due to the fact that you must draw the line somewhere, and if the arguments put forward for free delivery of telegrams in outlying areas are going to be accepted, one might also logically say that a man living next door to the Post Office should not have to pay as much as a man living a few streets away.

Mr. GOREY

Would the Deputy explain why he should get a gift of £178,000?

Mr. HEWAT

Deputy Gorey knows that I have never claimed a gift from the Dáil, and that I have never claimed any consideration from the Dáil. I am trying to deal with this as a business proposition. I quite recognise Deputy Gorey's idea that business is parasitical on the agricultural industry, but at the same time while I am here I am going to maintain that the business aspect of this transaction shall be taken into account, and I do say that I do not think any department of the Post Office should put up the claim that it should be run at a loss.

Mr. BAXTER

Agreed.

Mr. HEWAT

When I was interrupted by Deputy Gorey I was going to carry the argument to a logical conclusion—that if a man is living next door to the Post Office he is to get special terms according to the distance he is away from the Post Office.

Mr. GOREY

Why not carry letters for a halfpenny?

Mr. HEWAT

If you carry that right through you will have to put a Post Office next door to every man in the Saorstát. You will have to give him equality of service. I think it is a pity that we cannot have absolute equality in these things, but I do not think you can; and, generally speaking, the man that lives three, four or five miles away from the Post Office is not very greatly concerned, as a rule, taking the average, with the question of telegrams, because he is not, in fact, the receiver of many.

Mr. GOREY

Tell us, then, why you should not give him back his £41,000?

Mr. HEWAT

That, I think, is the farmers' argument always—give back everything.

Mr. GOREY

We will leave this business man alone.

Mr. HEWAT

I think if I may say so, the most promising line in connection with the Post Office development is the one which I think the Minister has all along recognised as the line of development that is of the greatest use to the country. That is the telephone department. Undoubtedly telephone extension throughout the country is at present, and is going to be, the most valuable asset the country has got for communication. I imagine that, internally, telegrams will be largely displaced in the course of time by the use of the telephone service. The telegraphic service will have to be carried on more for the purpose of sending messages out of the country. Internally I think that the development of the telephone system will largely do away with the need for the very considerable use of telegrams. As regards the details of the working of the Post Office, I think it is recognised that as a concern it is very well run, and, therefore, while I rather protest against the inability to examine this very lengthy account in detail, I think that the information that is to be got from the account as we have it here would not really entail very much criticism. At the same time, the main thing that ought to be aimed at, and which the House ought, I think, to give close attention to, is as to whether the postal service as a whole is progressing towards the point when it will cease to be a charge on the country. I do not think that the comprehensive service rendered by the Post Office justifies a loss of half a million pounds, and all the examination I have been able to give the matter does not change the opinion which I have formed, that the country should not be expected to maintain the service at this great loss. The answer that the Minister may make is that he cannot balance his budget without cutting down services, and I think that that also would be the argument of the Minister for Lands and Agriculture on his Vote. If that is so, I say that within reasonable limits he ought to cut his coat according to his cloth. I do not think it is sound that clamours for services beyond what are reasonably required by the needs of each district should be acceded to. I maintain that if we have to submit to a curtailment of facilities within reasonable limits, in order not to have to shoulder this big burden of loss, we ought to do so.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We are supposed to be taking the general question. It clearly could all be taken as arising under sub-head A, but only two questions have been raised—one, the question of the charges for delivery of telegrams in certain rural areas, and the other, the general question of the extension of telephones. If I am not mistaken, the question of the 6d. tax on parcels is one over which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has no control.

Mr. WALSH

That is correct.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Then we cannot discuss that here. We are tending to discuss individual things without coming to the sub-heads, and I would like to remind Deputies that it would be better to allow the Minister, when he possibly can, to reply on different questions raised, and to give people who want to raise different matters under the sub-heads an opportunity to discuss them. Otherwise we would have to take the discussion without raising points that Deputies really want to raise and that could be answered. I do not know whether Deputies who really want to talk about general matters can possess their souls in patience until the sub-heads are reached.

Mr. SHAW

I want to say a word in favour of the extension of call offices to as many rural offices as possible. I believe that if that is done a large portion of the cost of porterage of telegrams would be saved, because there have been very considerable developments in connection with offices that have been opened, and these offices are being used very extensively. I do not believe that at present sufficient attention is paid to informing the public as to where these offices are available. The business in the offices that have been opened is daily increasing.

Many Deputies have found fault on this Vote with regard to various services, but I highly compliment the Minister on the great improvement and the efficiency of the very many developments that he has carried out under the most extreme difficulties during the past few years. If it is at all possible to meet people he does so, because in my experience of Government Departments none give such immediate attention as to any matter that is brought before it as his Department, and if it is at all possible to carry out any request put before them they do it as soon as possible.

Mr. BAXTER

On the general policy of the Minister I want to address myself for a few moments to the much debated matter of rural deliveries. The Minister's statement to the effect that a reduction in the cost of living, or an extension of trade would mean a better service, is undoubtedly the old saying, "Live horse, and you will get grass." As far as rural areas are concerned, there is absolutely no indication as to when they may expect better postal and telegraph services. Undoubtedly there is a good deal to be said for the case that trade should, to some extent, determine the extent of the service, but I would like to hear, when the matter of the curtailment of services in rural areas was under the consideration of the Department, what steps were taken by the Department to point out that unless there was an improvement in trade the service would have to be curtailed? What is being done to-day in this respect? The rural population in practically two-thirds of the country has to do with only a three-day letter delivery.

Mr. WALSH

No.

Mr. BAXTER

I speak subject to correction. It may not be as much as that, but undoubtedly a very great number of people have only a delivery three days a week. In my own constituency the service has been curtailed very considerably, and I receive complaints from practically every part of the county with regard to it. I think it would be very good business on the part of the Department to make an effort to organise business for the Department. I think it would be advisable that an effort should be made everywhere that there has been a curtailment to point out to the people that if business is forthcoming the service would be restored. If nothing is to be done by the Post Office, and if trade is to continue as at present until there is an upward curve, the only thing our rural dwellers can do is to look years ahead, in the hope that something may happen to give them a better service. I feel that the Post Office itself should make an effort in every district to determine what increase of trade would warrant an extension of the present service.

Mr. WALSH

How could the Post Office of itself bring about any increase of trade?

Mr. BAXTER

Figures have been given to us by the Minister showing that on the letter and postcard branch there was a gain of £231,000. It is difficult to determine in what way that gain has been brought about. This gain that we have given us is on the whole service. Figures have also been given to us as to the losses. Are we to accept it that these figures point to the fact that all of the loss on printed paper, newspapers, parcels, registered parcels, money orders and postal orders is on the service in the rural districts? I would be prepared to suggest that a considerable amount of this loss of £104,000 on the delivery of parcels is sustained in the area represented by the 15 Deputies of Dublin constituencies in this House. I would like to have such a discrimination made in the figures given to us that we would be enabled to determine whether or not the gain on our letter and postcard branch of the service was over the whole branch of the service, or whether there is a loss in one part of it and a gain in another. The Minister has not indicated that to us.

Unless we get figures to prove conclusively that the loss of £119,000 on printed papers, of £66,000 on newspapers, of £104,000 on parcels, and of £81,000 on registered parcels and so on has been sustained on deliveries in the rural districts, then we must assume that the loss has been sustained not only in the rural districts but on the service as a whole over the country. If that is the position, and we believe it is, what is the justification for the policy pursued by the Minister at the present time? If the Minister is to continue in the attitude that he cannot afford to extend to rural districts the services they had until there is a revival of trade and until the cost-of-living bonus comes down, because these services can only be maintained at a loss, then he should be consistent. Let him curtail the services within the charmed area that Deputy Gorey referred to if he wants to be fair to all of us.

I confess that I am prepared to join with the Deputies who paid tribute to the administration of the Department and to the courtesy extended to Deputies by the Department. While we are prepared to agree that we get good service as far as the policy pursued by the Minister makes it possible for him to give it, and while we get courtesy from his Department, yet we are not prepared to agree that the policy at present pursued by the Minister is fair. Undoubtedly every time a Minister for Posts and Telegraphs comes to the House with his Estimate, either the present Minister or the one who will succeed him when he himself advances to a higher post, will be faced with this very same case. No statement has been made here to show that the losses in the working of the Post Office are due to the service given in the rural districts. As long as that is so, Deputies representing rural constituencies must insist that inasmuch as there is a loss on the service no one citizen of the State is entitled to better service than another from a Department that is being run at a loss. Deputy Hewat talked about a scattered population and the loss in the service due to that fact. That may be the point of view of Deputy Hewat and of other Deputies, but they have not the experience of people who come here from the country.

When we consider the disadvantages and the disabilities that our people suffer from because of the policy pursued by the Minister to-day, it is our duty to bring these disabilities to his notice and to press on him that more favourable consideration be given to our people in the future than has been given to them up to the present. If there is a loss in the service we do not want to have one section of our people made to suffer it, and at the same time pay their share of the loss sustained because a better service is being given to other citizens in the State than is being given to them.

Mr. M. NOONAN

Like Deputy Baxter and Deputy Gorey I have the same complaint to make with regard to the rural districts. In very few instances, as Deputy Baxter pointed out, do the people in the rural districts get more than a three days' postal delivery in the week, and it often happens that these deliveries are made very late in the day. I agree that the people living in the rural districts may be as useful and may contribute as much to the support of the State as those living in the cities and towns. I consider that they should be put in as favourable a position as the people in the cities and towns are with regard to the postal service. There is no doubt but that sometimes the charge for the delivery of telegrams in rural districts is very exorbitant. A Deputy on the Labour benches said that the charge often amounted to half-a-crown. I can substantiate that statement. We are all anxious to promote the industries of the country and to see her prosper. I think that the Post Office Department could contribute to the prosperity of the country by having a better telegraph and postal service in the rural districts. I must say that at all times the Minister has done all that it is possible to meet the wishes of Deputies when they come forward with complaints to him. Undoubtedly the service is not what we want it to be, and the sooner the Minister would consider providing such a service as is needed by those living in the rural areas the better it would be for the entire community.

Professor TIERNEY

There is one point I would like to make in connection with the question of the losses on the working of the Post Office. I gathered from the figures given by the Minister that the total cost of Press telegrams works out at £50,000 a year, and that the revenue from Press tele grams amounted only to £6,500. It would appear, therefore, that there is a total loss to the Post Office revenue on Press telegrams of £43,500. In addition to that it would appear that the total loss on newspaper deliveries, taking newspapers of all kinds, is £66,000. If you add these two figures together you get the large total sum of £109,000 of a loss on Press telegrams and on the delivery of newspapers.

If the Post Office was in a normal condition, and if there was not a loss on it, it might be considered worth while for the country to bear this burden on what is, to some extent at least, a luxury service. But in view of the fact that there is a very heavy loss on the total working of the Post Office, of which this sum of £109,000 makes up a fairly considerable part, I would suggest to the Minister that it is worth considering whether the country can afford to pay such a sum as that, which amounts practically to a subsidy to private individuals. It would seem from the Minister's speech that the greatest loss on the working of the Post Office is on the three items, newspapers, printed matter, and parcels. If the Post Office is to be worked on a paying basis it would appear to me that the proper end from which to tackle the problem is these three items. I suggest that the £109,000 loss is one figure that could be inquired into with most salutary effects in view of the present condition of the working of the Post Office.

Mr. CONNOR HOGAN

The Minister made a very full and comprehensive statement in moving this Vote. My first feeling was to pay him a tribute, but on reflection I begin to see that there is something in the nature of a subtle policy behind it, and I have come to the conclusion that it is an effort to throw into bold relief the very sombre situation in regard to the loss on the working of the Post Office. There is one thing in connection with this Estimate one would like to be assured of, that is, that there is no such thing in connection with it as over-estimating, that it has been, in fact, cut down to bedrock, and that it represents the normal charge, duly scrutinised, which will fall on the Exchequer of the Saorstát. In the absence of precise knowledge, certainly in the absence of the fuller knowledge which the Minister possesses, and not having his intimate relation with the administration of the service, it is not easy to point out where the savings can be made. For instance, take the conveyance of mails and the engineering service; there the charge naturally is a matter of policy.

Taking supernnuation charges under sub-head A, I find in this year's Estimate there is a sum of £205,000. On the Vote last year there was a sum of £213,000. The expenditure in respect of this service in the year 1924-25 amounted to £181,752 13s. 9d., and the Estimate that year was over £249.630. The actual expenditure in 1924 was less by a sum of £24,000 approximately than the charge this year. I am inclined to wonder whether this expenditure in 1924 was of a normal character, and whether there is an excess coming on the Estimate in respect of this year's charge. One would like to have an assurance that in this year's Estimate this sum of £205,000 is not an over-estimate. With regard to the working of the Post Office it has been suggested here by certain Deputies that it should be on a commercial basis. I think a commercial basis can have two aspects and may be interpreted in two different ways. You can have first and foremost the idea of cutting down unprofitable services, curtailing the services you give to the community, or, on the other hand, which is a better, higher and more intelligent way, you can adjust your charges so that you can get an increased volume of business. To curtail the services would be a most retrograde step. We farmers would object to and resist any attempt to curtail the facilities of service which were given to us some years ago.

With regard to commercial principles, has it dawned on anyone how much better the Post Office is placed than an ordinary business house? Everything is on a strictly cash basis. There is no such thing as making provision for bad debts as has to be done by business concerns. Everything in connection with the Post Office, I repeat, is strictly on a cash basis, and therefore everything could be cut down to the minimum, for no risk has to be taken with regard to bad or uncertain debts. That is one of the reasons why I claim the Ministry of Posts is in a better position than a concern that is obliged to give credit. I contend that the higher charges by the Post Office are detrimental as regards making it a paying concern. According to the Minister's own figures revenue is decreasing. That, clearly, is indicative of the fact that he has touched the peak point, and therefore it is no longer advisable that the Minister should maintain high charges. In the late 'forties in Great Britain, when the idea of the penny post was mooted, the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that Sir Rowland Hill was absolutely insane, but when the penny postal service was tried it was found that the volume of business increased many times over, and that it presented to the Chancellor of the Exchequer a financial gain over the preceding period.

Mr. JOHNSON

There was a rapidly growing population.

Mr. CONNOR HOGAN

That may be, but the fact remains that, compared with the preceding year, Sir Rowland Hill's scheme yielded an increase of revenue to the British Exchequer.

Mr. GOREY

The population did not increase much here.

Mr. CONNOR HOGAN

No. I maintain that the Minister, in order to increase business. should reduce his charges, particularly as regards letters. I believe the time has come when the charge should be reduced to 1½d. Can we, a small, isolated State, carry on with a 2d. letter charge, when Great Britain and Northern Ireland have a 1½d. letter charge? I say we cannot, and that the principle underlying this heavy charge is defeating its own object, that is, it is preventing revenue coming to the Exchequer. We have in one respect a poor country, an uneducated country, and yet we have a prohibitive letter rate. These three things, taken in conjuction with each other— they inter-act, as it were—are producing a position which, I fear, will lead to diminished returns in the future. The Minister desires to establish business. Already he has laid the foundation. I presume that with his present staff, with trifling additions, he could deal with a volume of business twice as great, or three times as great, as is being at present transacted. Even with an increase of business to the extent of fifty per cent., in my opinion the system would begin to right itself, and the Post Office would be a paying proposition.

I believe that a cheap letter rate would form the foundation of a good business. If there are cheaper facilities given in that direction, there is bound to be increased business. I believe you will increase your business in the parcels post direction. At present, owing to prohibitive charges, people refrain from using the parcels post to the extent that we would consider desirable.

With regard to rural telegraph services, the Minister's statement failed to convince many Deputies that the charge of 1s. outside the mile limit was justified. He mentioned that the amount received by reason of this charge is £41,000, and that there was a total loss in respect to telegrams of something in the nature of £180,000. If the Minister makes the case that he pays the deliverer of a telegram the extra amount charged to the rural dweller——

Mr. WALSH

I said we did, as a matter of fact.

Mr. C. HOGAN

You pay him every penny, then?

Mr. WALSH

It works out in that way.

Mr. HOGAN

Then it really defrays the cost of delivery? The messenger is a whole-time official and he is paid a standard weekly wage. Does he get the extra amount charged outside the mile limit to the rural dweller to whom the telegram is delivered? I do not think so.

Mr. WALSH

I thought that there were no whole-time men engaged in long-distance delivery, but I am informed there are a few—very few. They do not count for ordinary purposes.

Mr. C. HOGAN

The whole point centres around the rural dweller. In my opinion it is absurd to impose this charge for the delivery of a telegram. It would, for instance, be absurd to ask a person living in a rural area to put an extra penny stamp on a letter before he posts it. In the same way it is, in my opinion, both illogical and absurd to impose an extra charge of 1/- for the delivery of a telegram to a person living outside the mile limit. What is the basis of this charge? We are told that the telegram costs the sender 1/-; the charge to the State is another 1/-, and the rural dweller living outside the mile limit has to pay an additional 1/- for delivery. That means that a telegram sent to a person living outside the mile limit costs 3/-. How are these costings calculated? Are we to understand that the Post Office authorities have, with mathematical precision, calculated the actual time spent in despatching and receiving the telegram by Post Office officials, and the time it takes to carry out the delivery to the addressee? If the system were not worked out to a fine point it is not likely we would be told that each telegram costs the State 1/-.

Mr. WALSH

We have worked it out carefully, of course.

Mr. C. HOGAN

I was under the impression that you were charging up the time of the operators in despatching and sending the telegram. In rural offices the officials in charge are ordinarily engaged on different services, such as issuing money orders, dog licences, stamps, and things of that kind. Then, of course, in the case of telegrams arriving, they have to make arrangements for their delivery. I have no doubt all these matters have been taken into consideration in arriving at the cost to the State that has been mentioned by the Minister. I contend that the Minister is not justified in making this additional charge for the delivery of telegrams outside the mile limit. It is an unfair discrimination against the rural community. Seeing that this service is made a national charge, there is no reason why a person who, by mere accident, lives outside the mile limit, should be saddled with this extra shilling. A person living in a town will have the telegrams delivered to him within a two mile radius without any additional cost. There is no justification for this imposition.

Mr. RODDY

I want to allude briefly to some items referred to by the Minister in the concluding part of his statement. He touched on the collection of rates through the Post Office. I understand this method of collection was resorted to in two counties, Kerry and Sligo. I would be interested to know if that system of collection is a paying proposition from the Minister's point of view. I heard it rumoured on more than one occasion that the collection of rates actually means a loss to the Post Office. I would be anxious to get accurate information on that point.

There is another point to which I would like to refer. The Minister spoke of the growth, during the past 12 months, of the cash on delivery system. I would like to know to what extent that system has been availed of by the farmers. In other countries where a system of this kind exists, it is availed of very generally. In this country I imagine the extension of the system would help materially in the development of the agricultural industry.

The Minister contemplates a big scheme of telephone development in the western counties. Does he intend to connect the smaller Post Offices with the telephone exchanges? In a number of western counties many of these Post Offices have neither telephonic nor telegraphic facilities. In modern times it is, I think, absolutely essential that every Post Office should have telegraphic and telephonic facilities. Recently I had occasion to call the attention of the Minister to several Post Offices in the constituency I represent. These Post Offices are not in a position to send or receive telegrams, or permit telephone calls. I will be glad to hear from the Minister, that when this scheme he has in contemplation materialises, it will embrace such offices as I have referred to. There is no doubt that if such facilities were extended to every Post Office in the Saorstát, the community in general would derive great benefit.

In connection with the porterage charges referred to by Deputy Gorey and others, I happen to live in a rural area, and, like Deputies Gorey and Heffernan and many others, I have had to pay on various occasions the charge of 1/-. I remember about twelve months ago, on the occasion of my election to the Dáil, I received a good many telegrams congratulating me upon the result. I was not at home at the time when they arrived, but I happened to call into the Post Office a week later and I was told there that I owed a bill of 28/- for telegrams delivered at my residence. It seems to me that really the Minister should consider the advisability of taking some steps for the relief of people living in rural areas from this charge. I must confess I cannot see quite clearly, at the moment, how it can be done. I have heard quite a number of complaints from many people living in rural areas with reference to the injustice of this particular charge. Very often members of the Dáil, and particularly Deputies in the country, receive telegrams on matters of business and they have to pay this charge of 1/- or 1s. 6d. porterage.

I cannot quite follow Deputy Gorey when he suggests that this charge should be spread all over the country, and that people in cities and towns should bear a proportion of the charge as well as the men living in the rural areas. I think, at all events, the Minister, in conjunction with his advisers, should try and devise some means of relieving people, in the rural areas, of this charge. I confess, as I said already, I am not in a position to suggest any way out of the difficulty, but I suggest that the sender should be made to bear some of the cost of the delivery.

Mr. WALSH

The discussion on this Vote appears to have centred round two points in the main: (1) criticism of the porterage charge on rural deliveries and (2) telephone extension. Now, taking the question of telephone extension first, I wish to assure Deputies that we are very anxious to get our telephone system in, even to the most remote districts. We can only advance by stages, tapping the larger quarters first, and, then, moving downwards. In this way we hope to be able to get at the districts referred to this evening by several Deputies. I have no doubt, myself, that within the next two years, at the present rate, it will be found that we have penetrated the entire area of the Twenty-Six Counties. I do not believe that anybody anticipated such rapid extension a few years ago.

Telephonic extension costs money. When we extend, the Minister for Finance rightly insists that a certain amount of support shall be forthcoming. There is nothing unreasonable in that. He does not definitely assert that every telephone extension must pay its way, but he does insist that a certain reasonable guarantee should be forthcoming in every district. In following that rule, the Minister is simply adopting the one that prevailed under the English system, and, if anything, he has modified the charges in favour of the users. I have personally suggested that further modification of these charges may be advisable, and he is considering that subject. We have not been able to tap Carndonagh as soon as Deputy White would desire, simply because the residents of Carndonagh are not prepared to come to the scratch in respect of the guarantee.

We come now to the other point, that of porterage delivery fees. I concede that a resident within a mile area who receives a free delivery of a telegram has an advantage over the resident outside that area, who pays full price for the delivery. We make no profit on the transaction. I have gone into that. It merely suffices to pay the expenses of the messenger who makes the delivery. There is no doubt the resident outside the mile area is under a disadvantage, but when we adopted this system we simply adopted the system that prevailed in the time of the British.

Mr. GOREY

It was three miles in that case.

Mr. WALSH

No matter; the principle was the same. We felt we could not continue to lose the very heavy sum we were losing. That was in 1924, and the sum then was in the neighbourhood of £60,000. We could not continue to lose that sum, which appeared to me to be an increasing sum. People discovered it was quite a convenient thing to scribble off a telegram, which only cost a shilling, at a Post Office counter. They never worried about the fact that it cost the taxpayer three or four shillings to deliver. This class of telegram might have no element of urgency about it. It might simply be a notification to the members of the family that the sender was travelling home by train. It was more convenient to scribble a telegram rather than get paper and envelopes and write a letter. But the taxpayer has to pay three or four shillings. There was another class of telegram dealt with, and that was in regard to betting.

Mr. GOREY

Round the bookmakers' offices in Deputy Hewat's constituency?

Mr. WALSH

Several instances were brought to my notice where farmers, who have very little to do in the country. made it a practice to get into close touch with sporting events in Manchester, and it was not only once a day that that close touch was established, but several times a day, and every time that happened it meant so many shillings to the taxpayer.

Mr. GOREY

Business men were quite satisfied.

Mr. WALSH

I submit we could not permit that practice to go on unrestricted, and we simply told them: "If you want the latest information from Manchester you must pay for it."

Mr. GOREY

But nobody was made to pay only those outside the mile or the two mile limit.

Mr. WALSH

The very extraordinary thing is that when those people found they had to pay for the telegrams they resorted to other means, and the amount collected last year dropped to £25,000 as against £60,000. I believe that even Deputy Gorey will admit that it is possible to abuse this.

Mr. GOREY

I will not admit that it was abused outside the mile and the two mile limit any more than anywhere else. I make the assertion that it will be less abused there. They would first of all have to go that distance to the telegraph office to send messages. It is people who live within a reasonable distance of the telegraph office that abuse it.

Mr. WALSH

It has been abused in both places. At any rate, we have put a very serious check on this lighthearted sending of telegrams to country districts. We have reduced it to a fairly reasonable level, and we find that few telegrams are sent nowadays except on urgent private or business matters. I will agree that the time has come at least for a review of the position. I will not say what we can do and I will not say that anything I suggest with regard to it will be agreed to by the Minister for Finance, nor do I hope that there is any solution to be found in the levelling up of the general charges for telegrams. I believe that will be very strongly resisted.

Mr. GOREY

Of course, by the business men.

Mr. JOHNSON

Would the Minister excuse me while I ask him to reconcile this position, just as a matter of clarification? I find on page 251 of these Estimates that the number of boy messengers totalled 378, at a wage ranging from 6/- to 19/- plus bonus. If I assume that 25/- is a fair mean of the weekly earnings, I take it that 378 boys at 25/- gives a total of £24,500. That included all the boys delivering messages, whether to the rural areas or to their own districts. The porterage received, I gather, was £25,000, so that we have a cost of £24,500, including all the boys in Class 2 and 3 offices. The porterage does give a balance of £500, so that I think that proves Deputy Gorey's case.

Major COOPER

The Minister has said that there are few telegrams sent now except on business or family matters. Surely telegrams are supposed to be secret. There are penalties imposed on any postal official who communicates the contents of telegrams. Does the Minister receive reports as to the nature of telegrams? One gathers from what he says that he did. I hope that is not so. I hope he will disillusion us on that point.

Mr. WALSH

If Deputy Cooper thinks that it is not my business to ascertain the contents of telegrams for purposes of this kind I think he is making a mistake. As a matter of fact it is my duty to give some enlightenment to the Dáil as to the nature of the telegrams which have been discussed here year after year. As to Deputy Johnson's point, he refers to permanent messengers as against casuals.

Mr. GOREY

Casuals are not shown anywhere.

Mr. JOHNSON

Can the Minister show me where the casual charge is?

Mr. WALSH

The casual charges are fixed fees for telegrams.

Mr. JOHNSON

I think this question arose a year ago.

Mr. WALSH

It is included in A (3) —Inspectors, etc. Postmen. Cleaners and Messengers (including Unestablished Force, allowance for delivery, collection, etc.).

Mr. BAXTER

Is that an allowance for the delivery and collection of letters? If not where is the allowance for the delivery and collection of letters?

Mr. GOREY

There is no such thing as a collection of telegrams, anyhow.

Mr. WALSH

I said that I was prepared to go into that whole matter of porterage charges, but I cannot give any promise, because it is full of difficulties.

Mr. GOREY

I quite agree.

Mr. WALSH

I realise that the members from different parts of the country are honestly expressing a feeling in regard to this matter that there is that differentiation between the free telegram within the mile area and the unfree one outside. I cannot say at the moment what the Minister for Finance might agree to in regard to this matter, but I am prepared to have the matter re-opened. Deputy Davin urged that married men, acting, I presume, as rural deliverers, should get preference in retention of employment over single men. That, too, is our view, and if there are any cases in which we have departed from that principle, I would be very glad that the Deputy should bring them to my notice.

Mr. DAVIN

Should get preference in the retention of existing duties where the reduction of wages would not be involved.

Mr. WALSH

Get general preference?

Mr. DAVIN

Quite so.

Mr. WALSH

That is our view in regard to it. It is not possible, of course, to follow it in 99 out of every 100 cases.

Mr. NORTON

Do I take the Minister as saying that it is the policy of the Post Office to give a married man, say, with two children, preference over, say, a single man with 15 or 16 years' service?

Mr. WALSH

We have got to take every case on its merits. On the assumption that both services are equal, obviously we give preference to the married man. On the other hand, if we are up against a position of a single man with long service and a married man with short service we have got to trim our sails otherwise. Deputy Baxter complained that we have reduced practically the whole rural services. That is an exaggeration. As a matter of fact, less than 25 per cent. of those services have suffered a reduction. This policy of retrenchment in rural deliveries is not applicable to this country alone. It had been initiated by the British before the Treaty, and it is being pursued by them in England and in the Six Counties at the present time. I cannot say whether they are taking it quite as far as we are, but I know very well that it is a policy of theirs, and it is being carried out.

Mr. BAXTER

Surely the Minister does not want the House to draw the conclusion that the rural districts in England are the same to England as the rural districts in Ireland are to Ireland?

Mr. WALSH

I suppose the rural districts in England are quite as important to England as the rural districts here are to our own people.

Mr. BAXTER

Surely the percentage of population in the rural districts of England is not the same as in this country?

Mr. WALSH

No, not taken as a whole, but I am quite sure that the residents of a village in rural England with a population, let us say, of 200 or 300——

Mr. GOREY

Would the Minister remember that in England the country is controlled by the Hewats and the McCulloughs?

Mr. HEWAT

Does the Minister recognise that the country in England is well run?

Mr. GOREY

As a business proposition at the other fellow's expense.

Mr. WALSH

We have never advanced on the principle that rural deliveries must pay. Not five per cent. of those deliveries pay their way. I think I would be justified in saying that on the average, the men engaged in rural deliveries do not earn, notwithstanding the reductions we have effected, 25 per cent. of their cost. We must, of course, continue to suffer that loss for the common good. There is very little use in harping on the fact that the urban service on the whole is a paying service, and the rural service a losing one.

Mr. BAXTER

Could the Minister explain the figures? Are all these losses on the six branches of the service on which losses have been sustained, losses on the services in the rural districts?

Mr. WALSH

The loss is heavier in proportion in all cases in the rural districts.

Mr. BAXTER

Are we to take it, where there has been a loss affecting printed papers and so on, that there has also been a loss on that branch of the service in the urban districts and the cities?

Mr. WALSH

In the case of postal orders, money orders, registered parcels and registered letters, even where these items are confined within an urban area, there is a loss, a smaller loss, of course, than were these items to be taken over a big part of the 26 counties. In all other cases, treating them from the purely urban point of view, I should say there is a gain.

Mr. BAXTER

You should say! I want to be definite on that.

Mr. WALSH

I have no doubt about it in the case of letters, printed papers, and postcards. I am not sure about parcels, but I would almost venture to say that parcels clear their way in the urban areas. Taken as a whole, as the Deputy pretty well understands, the service does suffer a very much heavier loss in the rural areas than in the urban. There is no need to convince him on that point. Everybody knows that we have great numbers of men travelling through the country with comparatively little material to deliver. If those who advocate running the service on a business basis were to get their way, then we should have to clip our wings very seriously in the rural districts.

Mr. GOREY

Give over the service altogether.

Mr. WALSH

If there is a general feeling that the service should be run on a purely commercial basis, we can do it. On the other hand, if it is desired that we ought to spend more —that instead of half a million that we spend a million or a million and a half —on the general postal service, we can also do that, but between the two extremes, between the man who wants a full service regardless of cost and the man who wants a paying concern, we have to determine our own course, and we are satisfied that we have produced, after the curtailments that have been brought about during the last couple of years, a minimum inconvenience to the people. I want further to say that Deputies have hinted at, or alleged that we have in no way penalised the urban citizen, that we have continued to serve him with that very full service which existed at the time of the Treaty. That is not true. In the case of Dublin City and County, we have reduced the deliveries from four to three, in Cork from three to two, and so on right down through the other cities and towns. The Dáil can rest assured that wherever we got an opportunity to economise, without inflicting any serious inconvenience on the people whether in the urban or rural districts, we have availed of it. Deputy Tierney has drawn attention to a loss of £100,000, on the transaction of Press business, £66,000 of which would come under the heading of newspapers carried through the post, and the balance of £43,000 on the transmission of Press telegrams. That undoubtedly is the case. It is true that the Press is being subsidised pretty much like other services.

Mr. BAXTER

You have not succeeded in keeping them on your side.

Mr. WALSH

On the other hand, I do not think we would be justified——

Mr. GOREY

Would the Minister consider the question?

Mr. WALSH

I might. The fact is, at any rate, that we are losing £100,000 on Press business. It is a fact that has not come to our notice to-day or yesterday. We have been aware of this all along.

Major COOPER

Can the Minister say whether it is from Press messages in the Saorstát or from Press messages sent in from outside?

Mr. WALSH

Both.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We will have to leave the matter over as the hour for adjournment has now been reached.

Mr. WALSH

I will have finished in just one moment. Deputy Roddy wants to know whether rate collection for the Co. Councils has been conducted at a loss or not. We have paid our way.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We cannot have this. The debate will be resumed to-morrow.

Ordered that progress be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Progress reported, the Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 till 3 o'clock on Thursday, 27th May.