Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 2

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 42 (DUNDRUM ASYLUM).

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £8,099 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927; chun Costaisí Coinneáil-suas Geilteanna Cuirpthe i nGealtlann Dúndroma.

That a sum not exceeding £8,099 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the expenses of the maintenance of criminal lunatics in Dundrum Asylum.

Mr. BURKE

I do not think it is necessary to say anything in regard to this Vote.

Mr. JOHNSON

Has the Minister nothing to say about the security of inmates in the asylum? Has the Minister nothing to say with regard to freedom of access on the part of the public? Will he tell us what measures are taken to retain inmates and on what occasions are they allowed out? I thought that was a subject upon which the Minister would have a good deal to say.

Mr. NALLY

Perhaps the Minister could tell us the cost per head for the inmates in Dundrum Asylum, and also what attendants are getting? I am informed the figure is £300 per year. If that is so, it seems to me it would be as cheap if they were kept in the Shelbourne Hotel or some similar institution.

Mr. BURKE

I have not got that figure, but, on the face of it, that is ridiculous and a gross exaggeration. In regard to the point raised by Deputy Johnson, I think it is more a matter for the Minister for Justice. That was a very exceptional case, and I do not think any ordinary precautions taken by us would have prevented that particular escape, if escape it may be called.

Mr. JOHNSON

May we take it that it is not a usual thing to allow inmates to take drives in public vehicles?

Mr. BURKE

It certainly is something off the common.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

I am sorry the Minister for Justice is not here. A very fair explanation can be given in the case. I have heard a very fair explanation of how the matter actually occurred. I do not suppose the Minister for Local Government and Public Health knows very much about it.

Mr. HEWAT

I would like to put one or two matters to the Minister. Probably he has considered the question of whether there is a need for continuing the Dundrum Asylum. Of course, it is not an asylum, strictly speaking; it is a prison. I wonder has he considered whether there is any sound reason for the continuance of this institution, and whether it could not be embodied in the prisons system, with resultant economy and as much satisfaction? It does seem rather an anomaly to have a separate vote for a separate institution when it really could be embodied with the prison system. I imagine, in view of the number of people concerned, provision could otherwise be made.

Mr. GOREY

Are we to understand that the provision made under sub-head B.—victualling patients and rations—is mainly for the patients, and that sub-head C.—clothing for patients and uniform clothing—represents practically the total cost in respect to the inmates? The whole sub-head A. is concerned with salaries, wages and allowances, and that is clearly connected with officials. I observe it is just a matter of £13,000. That seems to me a considerable sum for an institution where the patients cost a little over £5,000. It takes £13,000 to supervise inmates costing £5,000.

Mr. NALLY

What is the number of patients in the institution?

Mr. BURKE

There are 140.

Mr. GOREY

The figure I have mentioned seems an extraordinary sum in view of the number of patients. There may be an explanation, but to the ordinary layman, with very little knowledge about Dundrum Asylum, it seems an extraordinary figure, and I think it needs explanation.

Mr. BURKE

The explanation is that these institutions are very expensive to keep up.

Mr. GOREY

They are, from the point of view of officials.

Mr. BURKE

Criminal lunatics require a great deal more attention than patients of another kind; particularly is that so in the case of dangerous criminal lunatics. An institution of this kind will require a great many more officials than where there are harmless people. Criminal lunatics need separate attention; each inmate will probably require an attendant to himself.

Mr. GOREY

There are thirty-three male attendants there.

Mr. BURKE

With regard to Deputy Hewat's point, I think there is a good deal to be said for it. It might be possible at a later stage to have these lunatics put into ordinary asylums, in separate wards. That would require legislation, and it is not a matter that we can discuss very well here. However, it is a point worth considering.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

We have already passed the General Prisons Board Vote, which involves a sum of £10,500 for the maintenance of criminal lunatics in district mental hospitals. We have already treated criminal lunatics throughout the country in the ordinary mental hospitals. Whether, if this matter were looked into, it would not be very much cheaper to have them treated in the mental hospitals, is a question for the Minister to decide. I have no doubt the cost of maintenance in the Criminal Lunatic Asylum at Dundrum is high. On the other hand, it is possible that only the very worst type of criminals are sent there, and, therefore, they may require very much more supervision and that may raise the cost considerably. But when we are spending £10,500 in treating criminal lunatics elsewhere, there is no reason why the 140 patients treated in Dundrum Asylum should not also be treated elsewhere.

Mr. GOREY

I would strenuously object to this class of lunatic being sent down the country.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

You have them already down there.

Mr. GOREY

That may be, but the criminal lunatics are a different class to the ordinary lunatics. I would be sorry to see that type of person sent down from Dundrum to the mental hospitals in the country. I am sure it would have a very serious effect on the patients there.

Mr. HEWAT

There could be other arrangements made for them.

Mr. GOREY

I think the whole lot of them should be isolated. The less criminal lunatics we have among the ordinary lunatics in the country, the better. I believe it would have a very bad effect if the Dundrum Asylum patients were sent down to the mental hospitals through the Saorstát. These criminal lunatics are a more excitable class than the ordinary lunatics. If a few of the criminal lunatics were placed among the ordinary lunatics the position would become very serious; one never knows what might happen. It is not desirable that they should be placed in contact with the patients in mental hospitals. The best thing is to segregate them; keep together all those people in one institution.

Mr. HEWAT

Of the 140 patients in Dundrum Asylum the great bulk are just as harmless as the average inmate of one of the district asylums. I understand they are placed in Dundrum Asylum chiefly because they have committed some crime.

Mr. BLYTHE

There is a bigger reason than that.

Mr. HEWAT

There may be another reason, but that is the basis of the thing. It does not follow because a man in a mad frenzy has, say, killed another man, that he is any more dangerous than some of the lunatics who have not committed a crime, but who would be liable, if they were free, to commit similar offences.

Mr. BLYTHE

A considerable number of the people in Dundrum are people who were criminals first and who went mad afterwards. I believe in some cases they do not actually go mad afterwards, but they pretend to go mad. They are simply ordinary criminals who succeed in persuading the doctor that they are mad, though in reality they are not. I have known other cases where by reason of evidence—not medical evidence—such as was available, for instance, in a recent case, one is convinced that the person was not mad, but has succeeded in persuading some doctor that he was mad.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would like to be sure that the Minister, in making his statement agreeing with the views of Deputy Hewat tentatively, was not making a statement after full consideration and inquiry, because I think there is a distinct case for the maintenance of separate asylums. I think it would be unwise to proceed on the assumption that it was an accident that this was a separate institution. There may have been very sound reasons at the beginning, and unless we are satisfied that these reasons do not still exist I think it would not be well to let it go out that the Minister is in favour of amalgamating the criminal with the other asylums.

Mr. HEWAT

I do not say that special provision should not be made, but the case I am trying to make for the consideration of the Minister and the Government is that this is a very extravagant way of dealing with the question, and I think it could be done on more economical lines.

Mr. WILSON

How?

Mr. HEWAT

You could make provision in connection with sections of prisons, or asylums, and shut them off from those containing other inmates.

Professor THRIFT

I think it is worth while to draw attention to the comparison that appears between the cost of the ordinary prisons and that of the Dundrum institution. The Prison Vote is £144,000 for 1,000 persons—that is, £144 per head. The cost in Dundrum is £14,000 for 140 persons, or £100 per head—a rather striking difference.

Mr. BURKE

There is nothing extraordinary in that. As the Minister for Finance pointed out, there is a distinction between ordinary lunatics and the lunatics in Dundrum who have been criminally committed. Some went mad after being sentenced, and some when found guilty were declared to be insane. The friends of ordinary lunatics would object to having them herded with convicted lunatics. The whole question is being considered by the Poor Law Commission, and I have little doubt that recommendations will be made whereby more or less harmless lunatics can be housed at a cheaper cost than in cases where dangerous lunatics are housed with more or less harmless lunatics. When the whole question is under consideration it may be possible to find a cheaper system of keeping criminal lunatics under control. At present, however, we do not contemplate any change.

Vote put and agreed to.