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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 3

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 36 (LAND REGISTRY AND REGISTRY OF DEEDS).

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £35,828 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1927, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig Chlárathachta na Talmhan agus Oifig Chlaráthachta na nDintiúirí.

That a sum not exceeding £35,828 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Land Registry and the Registry of Deeds.

The figures set out in this Estimate appear for the first time as a separate estimate. Hitherto they appeared as part of the Estimate of the High Court and Supreme Court. The two offices, the Land Registry and the Registry of Deeds, are under the same chief officer—the Registrar of Titles. There is an increase of about £3,000 in the total cost, caused by the provision of £3,000 under sub-head C for replacing copies of deeds destroyed by fire in the Registry in June, 1922. The cost is incurred in payments to solicitors for looking up the originals in their offices and also the copying of those originals to replace the destroyed copies. The other decreases and increases cancel out and are mainly of a routine character, caused by reason of normal promotion or increasing increments. There is a decrease due to a slightly more economic adjustment in the upper staffing of the deeds office and in the estimate of the number of memorials which will require to be copied in the course of the current financial year.

The Registry of Deeds is a very old office, dating back to the year 1708. Up to 1864 it was maintained out of its own fund, arising from fees. The object of this particular Registry is simply to maintain a well-ordered and well-indexed record of all deeds, conveyances and wills which shall be made of any lands, tenements or hereditaments. The scale of fees charged was laid down by Acts of William IV. and Victoria. Some of them were increased in 1916 by a special Treasury Order. There are about 20,000 deeds registered every year. It is estimated that the fees will yield about £15,000 in the current year. In addition, the Registry does certain work for public Departments without fees—searches ordered by the Land Commission and registration of deeds of charge under the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881, when it is certified by the Board of Works that registration of these charges is necessary for the public service.

The Land Registry is the central office for the registration of title to land under the Local Registration of Title Act, 1891. There is also a local office in each county, but the cost of these local offices appears elsewhere, as part of the circuit court organisation. They are under the care of the circuit court officer for the county—the Clerk of the Peace. Most Deputies—and, in particular, Farmer Deputies—will be familiar with the object of the Land Registry. It is to maintain a well-ordered, well-indexed and well-mapped record of the ownership in lands. It is compulsory in the case of land bought out under the Land Acts and subject to Land Commission annuities, and voluntary in the case of other lands. It is gradually superseding the old Registry of Deeds, as the record of transactions of land bought under the Land Purchase Acts is kept in the Land Registry instead of in the Registry of Deeds. The main object of the Registry may be said to be the production on one single folio of a complete and authentic record of the history of each farm in the country, and the exact extent and boundaries of each such farm, illustrated by a map, so that in selling or mortgaging that farm the labour of proving title or proving freedom from incumbrances is reduced to a minimum. Fees are charged on the registration of such transactions and on the supply of copy-folios, but fees are not charged in a compulsory first registration of land bought out under the Land Acts. The first registration is done automatically when the landlord is bought out, the Land Commission passing the papers to the Land Registry for the purpose. The fees were fixed by the Land Judge, with the consent of the Treasury, in the past, and now with the consent of the Department of Finance. The fees were last fixed in 1917, and the new scale came into force on the 1st January, 1918. The fees for the current financial year are estimated to produce about £18,400.

A certain amount of discussion had centred round the question of the extent to which the work of local registration should be done in the central office or in the local county registries. Neither lawyers nor officials are entirely at one in the matter. In actual practice, the local registry does very little except keep duplicate folios and any really serious or critical work is done in the central office. It has been urged that that was hardly the intention when the Act of 1891 was passed, and that the central office has assumed powers and developed to a size and importance that was not contemplated by the Act, while the local registries have shrunk to shadows. On the other hand, the view has been put to me that the existing practice is correct in law and that the only possible practice, if the work is to be done correctly and the records kept in proper order, is the existing practice. Simply standing outside and observing the matter as a problem of administration, I may say that there is a good deal of overlapping as between the central registry and these local registries. Because of that and because of the confusion caused by the disappearance of the judicial head of the office, the Land Judge—there being now no Land Judge as such—it seems that the position of the Land Registry will have to be cleared up by legislation when Parliamentary time allows. I had an idea of introducing a Bill in the current session bearing on the subject and linking that Bill, to some extent, with the Court Officers Bill, which is at present going through, but the matter is not one of very great seriousness or very great urgency, and the Bill has been allowed to wait over. It probably will be introduced in the autumn or next year. It aims simply at a tightening up of the administration and an avoidance of overlapping. It will be introduced in the interest of economy and in the interest of greater administrative efficiency.

I want to raise a matter which does not strictly touch the questions the Minister has dealt with but which, I think, should be raised upon this Vote. In the absence of any other class of criticism, I will raise the point now. It is as to the quality and probable permanence of the work done by this Department and other Departments similarly placed, which require to have deeds copied or originals made with a view to permanence. The question arose last year in the Committee of Public Accounts as to whether typewritten documents are likely to have the quality of permanence as compared with ink-written documents. Not being able to get any satisfaction on the point, I put it to the Minister now with a view to inducing him to make inquiry, even if it requires some expenditure on scientific experiments, as to whether typescript will serve the purpose of a permanent document.

I understand that some of the work of the courts—and presumably work in the registries—is being done now by typing machines. I am personally very doubtful as to whether that is a sufficient safeguard of the permanence of the contents in the same way that fluid ink was in the past. The officer of the record office is not in a position to say, because his duties are concerned with documents at least 25 years old, when there was very little typewriting. It is said that a great deal of official work and legal work generally—both the work of Departments and the work of professional men outside—is being done at present in typescript. I doubt whether that is going to be legible in 50 or 100 years' time. I would urge on the Minister the importance of considering this matter and of satisfying himself that there is no risk that documents will become indecipherable after the passage of some years.

This matter was before us at the Committee of Public Accounts last year. I also should like to submit to the Minister the consideration as to whether typewritten documents, after a long series of years, remain as authentic as the handwriting used in connection with deeds. I think this is a matter of some importance. I think it is a matter that at all events some conclusion should be come to about after due consideration. I think the Minister might take some steps to have these points cleared up and either recognise that a typewritten document is as good as a written deed, or alternatively see that the deeds registered are in the form of script documents.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I am not going to dogmatise on this matter. It is a matter that there is a certain amount of doubt about. Deputy Johnson says the officers in the Record Office are not able to assist, for the reason that their work and experience bear on documents that are twenty or twenty-five years old. As to the relative enduring qualities of typescript and manuscript they are not in a position to help. The Department of Finance urged the use of typists rather than expert scriveners for the purposes of these records. Really we are not in a position to say, with any authority, that the typescript is not suitable. It might be of interest to Deputies to know that when officials of my Department visited England for the purpose of a brief examination of court officers there which might be of assistance to us in preparing the Court Officers Bill, they observed in the Land Registry there that all the work was being done by typewriters, and these records of title to land, which are very valuable, are regarded by the people there as sufficiently enduring in typescript. That is simply all the data I have with regard to the enduring quality of typescript. I do not want to be dogmatic on the point at all. If I can find any way of arriving at an opinion that would be of any real worth I will certainly do it. As to Deputy Hewat's point as to the authenticity of a document, I do not think that arises very much on the question of whether typescript or manuscript is used. There are other checks for that. In any case, it would turn not so much on the contents of the document as a whole, as on signatures, dates and so on.

It is so comparatively easy to forge, if there was an opportunity of doing it, as compared with a written document.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

We can look for further light. I am not of opinion myself that there is very much substance in the point with regard to authenticity, but on both points the point of enduring quality of typescript and the point of authenticity, I will see whether I will be in a position to give the Dáil a further opinion later on it.

It is not so much a question of typescript as against the written document as of the inks used. If any analine inks are used they will, no doubt, be of short life. I think it will be found that a carbon print will be permanent, whereas the original typescript will not be permanent. A carbon copy might have almost lasting permanence, whereas the original printed thing would die quickly.

I was going to supplement my earlier statement by saying that it is possible that special ink for typing documents of this kind is made and is in use, but it is certainly true to say that much of the typed work we are familiar with fades in a very few years. It will be a great pity and we shall all be liable to blame by some future disappointed litigant if it is found that the work that is being done at this time is of no avail to support such a claim as he makes. I think it would be well to find out whether the British practice has been adopted after inquiry, as they are as liable to overlook facts as other people.

Vote put and agreed to.
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