Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 10

UNIVERSITY EDUCATION (AGRICULTURE AND DAIRY SCIENCE) BILL, 1926.—(SECOND STAGE).

Mr. BLYTHE

I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. The purpose of the Bill broadly is to carry out the arrangement in regard to the College of Science which was announced and discussed in the Dáil a considerable time ago. The Bill enables the actual premises of the College of Science to be given over to University College, Dublin, subject to certain conditions. It enables the equipment and apparatus of the College of Science likewise to be given over to University College, Dublin. It provides that the grant of University College, Dublin, shall be increased by the amount of the non-agricultural portion of the expenditure on the College of Science. The remaining portion of the expenditure on the College of Science, together with further provision, goes also to University College, Dublin, but is earmarked for the Faculty of General Agriculture. Since the decision was come to in regard to the College of Science, it has been determined that a fully-equipped Faculty of General Agriculture shall be provided in University College, Dublin, and a fully-equipped Faculty of Dairy Science shall be provided at University College, Cork.

It also provides for the transference of the Albert College to University College, Dublin, and the provision of funds for the purchase of the necessary land and for the erection of buildings for the purposes of the Faculty of Dairy Science in Cork. The Bill also contains a provision for the increased sum that will be given to University College, Cork, for the general work of the College. It provides for the payment of grants for capital purposes to the University Colleges in Cork and Dublin which have been already actually voted by the Dáil. There are provisions of a minor character in the Bill, as, for instance, the provisions in regard to the grant for the purchase of buildings to the National University, and in regard to the surrender of certain sums which had been paid out of the Exchequer prior to the Treaty to the University for the purchase of buildings and which had been invested; also provisions in regard to the transfer of existing officers of the College of Science to the University College, Dublin. As I said in the beginning, the principle of the Bill was in the main discussed when the decision in regard to the College of Science and to the transfer of the functions of the College of Science to University College, Dublin, were discussed in the Dáil almost two years ago.

Mr. NORTON

I want to raise a matter now in order to give the Minister an opportunity of looking into it before the Committee Stage. I refer to the case of Doctor C. Holmes Denham. This doctor was appointed to the Lectureship in Agricultural Bacteriology in 1919 and continued in that occupation until the changes outlined in the Bill. When it became evident that it was proposed to transfer the College of Science, this officer was informed that the authorities of University College were willing to take over the entire staff and to appoint them to posts on the staff of University College corresponding to those they at present hold and on a corresponding tenure. That seems to me to be evidence of the fact that the Department of Education regarded this officer as having certain rights.

That letter, as I said, was addressed to him. He accepted the offer of the Department of Education and was of the opinion that in the ordinary course of events he would be transferred to University College, Dublin, at the same scale of salary and on a corresponding tenure. On the 25th May he was informed by the Minister for Education that that Minister regretted his services as a lecturer will not be required after three months, and therefore will terminate on the 31st August, 1926. Running right through the Bill and running right through the correspondence which passed between the Department on one side and the staff on the other, is the assurance that officers would be taken over by University College on their old scale of salary and old conditions of service. This officer, I understand, is the only officer to whom that undertaking has not applied, though it was clearly intended to apply it in the first instance. I should like the Minister to look into the matter in the meantime with a view to securing that this officer will be treated the same as all the other members of the staff of the College of Science.

PADRAIC O MAILLE

Ní maith liom a fheiceal nach bhfuil tada san mBille seo faoi níos mó airgid a thabhairt do Choláisde na h-Ollsgoille i nGaillimh. Sán gcéad dul amach, in Acht Ollsgoil na hEireann, tugadh suim airgid do gach aon Choláisde—do na trí coláisdí—atá sán Ollsgoil Náisiúnta. O'n gcéad uair bhí Coláisde na Gaillimhe ar an gcaol-chuid i dtaobh airgid, agus do réir an Bhille seo tá an sgéal níos measa, mar atá moladh ann airgead a thabhairt do na Choláisdí eile agus dearmad uilig a dhéanamh ar Choláisde na Gaillimhe. Níl sé sin coir ná ceart, agus tá súil agam go ndeanfaidh an tAire ath-sgrúdú ar an sgéal agus, chomh lúath a's bhéas deis aige, cothrom i dtaobh airgid a thabhairt do Choláisde na Gaillimhe.

Major COOPER

The matter raised by the Deputy might perhaps have been deferred to the Committee Stage, but, as it has been raised, it might as well be disposed of now. I support Deputy Norton's plea, and ask the Minister for Finance for justification of the procedure that has been adopted in respect to one official. At first glance, this Bill appears to be a generous Bill as regards all existing employees of the College of Science. It applies not only to professors and lecturers, but porters, messengers, and other officers and servants. When, however, one examines it more closely, one sees that by deferring the appointed day till 1st October, it gives an opportunity to the Department of Education to serve three months' notice on any persons who have not got a permanent tenure, and dismiss them without compensation of any kind. Here is the case of an existing official who has not got a permanent post, but who has been working side by side with, and on the same lines as, all the other officers who have permanent posts, who has nearly seven years' service, and who, under the procedure adopted by the Department of Education and the formula contained in the Bill, is liable to be dismissed without compensation of any kind whatever.

I suggest to the Minister that some consideration is desirable in the case of a public servant in conditions of that character; that he should not be penalised in the way in which this Bill penalises him. I think there is no doubt that so long as the College of Science continued, there was no question of his dismissal. The Minister for Education was not then Minister for Education. So I do not know how he knows anything on the subject. The Minister for Education is shaking his head. I do not know if he is thinking of something else. At any rate, as long as the College of Science continued in the past, the Minister for Education was not responsible for it. As far as I know, this officer's tenure was secure until this change was mooted, and I consider it is unreasonable that he should be suddenly dismissed, as a result of a change of this character, without being given any compensation.

Professor THRIFT

I would like to support what has been said about this officer. I had intended to raise the matter at a later stage, but, inasmuch as it has been mentioned, I give my support now. I think this officer is entitled to special treatment, and I am of the opinion that his services ought not to be dispensed with at present.

I take this opportunity of asking the Minister some questions, in order that I may be quite clear as to the position. After this Bill becomes law, I take it the name, the College of Science, will disappear, and there will be no longer a College of Science. Could the Minister enlighten me as to what will happen the present reciprocal arrangements that exist between the College of Science and Trinity College? There are certain mutual arrangements under which certain courses can be taken out in Trinity College and completed in the College of Science, and certain courses can be taken out in the College of Science which can be completed in Trinity College. Do these automatically come to an end, or is there any proposal to consider their continuation? I would like the Minister to answer those questions.

Professor O'SULLIVAN

Regarding the position of one individual who has been referred to, Deputy Cooper must not assume that I am absolutely ignorant of what took place in the Education Office before the Department had the misfortune to get me at the head of it. This officer had a strictly temporary tenure and was subject always to dismissal at three months' notice. Deputy Cooper has suggested that, had the College of Science continued in existence, this officer's tenure would be perfectly secure. I am not willing to admit that. I do not want to discuss the merits of any particular officer here, but I may mention a couple of facts. This officer did not get his increments in the ordinary way since 1920. He did not get them for a couple of years before there was any question of taking over the College of Science. When the Minister for Lands and Agriculture was drawing up what he required in connection with a faculty of agriculture there was no particular post corresponding to this. In the circumstances we did not think we were justified in insisting that the University College, Dublin, should take this officer over.

Mr. GOOD

I understood, when the transfer of the College of Science was proposed some months ago, that no barrier would be placed in the way of any students who wished to take diplomas as heretofore in the College of Science. That is a point I would like to have made quite clear so that there will be no misunderstanding in future about it. In the past, commercial students who desired to get a diploma in the College of Science could go direct to the College of Science and there take up the necessary courses in order to qualify for the diploma. What position are commercial students who desire to take out diplomas now placed in? Must they graduate in the National University in order to get the diploma in the College of Science which they were able to get by direct means heretofore? Is there a barrier that did not exist previously placed in the way of those students getting essential qualifications?

Mr. BLYTHE

I think the Deputy may take it that the arrangements that exist in regard to the National University will exist in regard to the whole institution.

Mr. GOOD

I have referred to the arrangements that existed previously with regard to the College of Science. I hope I made the point quite clear. Under those arrangements a commercial student could go direct to the College of Science and qualify for his diploma there. Will students be in the same position in future?

Mr. BLYTHE

I should say, certainly not, if that is clear enough. In regard to the question of reciprocal arrangements between the College of Science and Trinity College, I presume they will have to be at least reviewed, having regard to the new arrangements for the College of Science. I do not see why reciprocal arrangements should not be arrived at; I do not see why reciprocal arrangements should not exist; but, as the College of Science has been merged in the University College, Dublin, the matter will have to be discussed with a view to any adjustments that may be necessary.

Deputy O'Maille again raised the question of further provision for Galway College. As I said when the Bill was being prepared, we were not able, and even up to the present we have not been able, to arrive at any decision in regard to Galway. If and when a decision is arrived at, the necessary steps will be taken to convey that decision to the Dáil so as to have it put into effect.

Mr. GOOD

Reverting to the Minister's reply to the question I put, I raised this matter previously with regard to the College of Science and I am under the impression I was given an answer that under the new régime students would have the same privileges in relation to the College of Science as they enjoyed in the past; that is, they could go direct to the College and get a diploma without being graduates of a University. I understand that is changed.

Mr. HOGAN

I must say I do not remember that.

Mr. GOOD

I did not get that undertaking from the Minister for Lands and Agriculture.

Mr. HOGAN

It would seem to me rather extraordinary that a University should give secondary or technical education. I think we ought to keep the two things separate. It is not good that they should be mixed up. It would be a pity to be forced into doing something totally wrong for the sake of giving a secondary or technical education in a University to a few students. The number of students who have sought these facilities in the past is extremely few, and there ought to be ample facilities provided for them in future. We ought not to mix up the two things.

Mr. GOOD

Is the Minister aware that the College of Science was erected for a specific purpose—in order to give ordinary commercial students who required, say, a diploma in chemistry, an opportunity of getting that diploma? The College was erected for a specific purpose. Then the building was taken over and, when a proposal was put forward to give it over to the National University, I raised the question as to whether the students would get the same liberties under the new régime as they enjoyed in the past. The answer I got from the Government was that they would. Now the Minister for Finance says they are to be debarred from that enjoyment except they are graduates of the University; in other words, they must spend a number of years following up a University course in order to get the diploma they require.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Perhaps, as I discussed this matter before, I may be allowed to intervene. I do not think I gave any such undertaking as the Deputy has indicated. I find it rather difficult to make that definite reply, because I am not yet quite clear as to what the Deputy is driving at. It may be the Deputy has misused a particular word which has a rather definite meaning to people connected with University institutions. The Deputy talks of getting a diploma without being a graduate. I take it he refers to an undergraduate. I should say it would hardly be possible to get any course in the future without at least becoming a student of University College, Dublin, or a student of University College, Cork; but there are people who proceed to courses for diplomas and have been known to be students of these two colleges, without being matriculated in the University. It is possible that arrangement might still hold with regard to the two or three people for whom Deputy Good speaks.

Mr. GOOD

There is no use in depreciating the numbers of students who attended the College of Science in the past. That magnificent building, as we know it, would not have been erected for two or three students in the past. That institution has discharged magnificent work for this country.

Mr. HOGAN

It did, undoubtedly; but there is no use in placing the matter out of perspective in that way. There were three faculties in the College of Science; there was a Faculty of Agriculture, a Faculty of Applied Engineering, and a Faculty of Applied Science. That was University work proper, and 99 per cent. of the students who attended at the College of Science attended to get degrees in these faculties. The magnificent building and laboratories were set up for that purpose; the other thing is incidental.

Mr. GOOD

And they must be graduates in future?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

They must not. If the Deputy is insisting on the word he can get a definite and clear answer. They need not be graduates of a University to get any diploma.

Mr. GOOD

Will the Minister put it in a way that everybody will understand it? Under the new arrangements will any student who desires to get a diploma in the College of Science be as free as students were in the past?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I would not like to agree to that without knowing from somebody in authority.

Mr. GOOD

I thought not.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I would not like to agree to a statement I do not understand. I have not yet been able to understand what Deputy Good has made five attempts to make clear. The Deputy has used the word "graduate" again after having the meaning of the word explained. There is no question of graduation. I doubt very much if there is to be any insistence on the point of matriculation. Having had some connection with the University, I do hope there will be some insistence on the point of matriculation.

Mr. JOHNSON

I may not be on the same point as Deputy Good, but I desire to know whether it can be made possible or obligatory—if it is not already the practice—that a student who is earning his living during the day may obtain a diploma or otherwise by attending classes at night. Is it possible for a non-resident student of the University to get the advantages which hitherto applied to the College of Science?

Professor THRIFT

I hope that the National University will make arrangements by which external students— students who have not matriculated or graduated—will be eligible to take up the courses required for certain diplomas. That is not unusual in universities. I ask the Minister for Finance, or other Ministers for that matter, if the answer to my question might not be fairly put: "Inasmuch as the College of Science ceases to exist, any arrangements affecting it cease to exist also?" Is that a simple and fair statement?

Mr. BLYTHE

Without having looked into the matter too closely, I am inclined to consider that it is a fair statement.

Mr. GOOD

Will any reply be given to the question regarding diplomas for extern students?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The National University is not a residential University, and there are no resident students in University College, Dublin. Perhaps the Deputy might put his question in this way: "Will it be possible for persons to get diplomas by attendance, say, at a course of evening lectures?" I should say that that is possible. It is not in the Bill. It would be done in the ordinary way by the College authorities if that particular class of student was sufficiently numerous. There have been such lectures in the past. I understand that there is some doubt as to whether such lectures will be continued, as that class of student did not turn up in considerable numbers. It was a question of balancing the gain to be obtained from such lectures against the expenditure involved in the payment of lecturers and the increased strain on the whole staff.

Mr. JOHNSON

Does the Minister refer to evening classes in the old College of Science?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

No. I do not believe that there were evening classes in the old College of Science. The lecture period ceased about three o'clock, but there were certain laboratory classes which continued till about six o'clock. If Deputy Johnson asked whether that particular class of student attending lectures in the old College of Science would be catered for, I would say that there was no such class of student catered for by the old College of Science, but there seems to be a likelihood of that class of student being provided for in University College in a way in which that class was never provided for in the College of Science.

Question—"That the Bill be read a second time"—put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Friday, 18th June.