Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 Jun 1926

Vol. 16 No. 14

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - UNIVERSITY EDUCATION (AGRICULTURE AND DAIRY SCIENCE) BILL, 1926—FOURTH STAGE.

Mr. GOOD

I desire to move the following amendment:—

In page 3 to insert before subsection (3) of Section 2 a new subsection as follows:—

"The demise made by the Minister for Finance under this section shall have effect subject to the reservation that provision shall be made for existing and future associate and non-associate students similar to that heretofore fulfilled by the College of Science."

I was not able to be present when this Bill was considered in Committee. I put down this amendment largely for the purpose of ventilating what forms the subject matter. I would like to have the privilege of hearing the Minister's statement on the subject.

MINISTER for INDUSTRY and COMMERCE (Mr. McGilligan)

I have had some connection with this Bill since it was brought in and, on the Second Reading, I made an attempt to discover what were the points troubling certain people with regard to matters that were raised. I had intended, on the Committee Stage, to point out what I had discovered. Perhaps I may be allowed now, on this amendment, to answer the points that were raised.

Deputy Good suggests that a new sub-section should be inserted indicating that the demise made by the Minister for Finance shall have effect subject to the reservation that provision shall be made for existing and future associate and non-associate students similar to that heretofore fulfilled by the College of Science. The position with regard to the College of Science was that there were roughly three classes of students. There were associateship students in the ordinary course, students who had entered for and intended to take the degree or diploma of associate of the College of Science in all subjects except dairy science. They followed a four years' course, attended the lectures and sat at certain examinations which were generally held in the terms. At the end of the course they were awarded, if their merits were up to the mark, an associateship. They were then associate students for the degree or for the associateship in dairy science. The only difference between that and the ordinary course I have spoken of was that it was a year shorter, but everything else held. There were certain courses to be attended, certain examinations to be passed and fees paid.

There were, in addition to that, non-associate students. They were a rather undefined class. It came to this, that any student of good repute could present himself and take out lectures from any professor. He could attend a course of lectures. He simply attended the course and at the end of it he was rewarded—not having to pass any examinations—not with an associateship or diploma, but with a certificate that he had attended lectures and had shown proficiency or intelligence in any particular matter under discussion.

The intention in this amendment is that provision shall be made for existing and future associate and non-associate students similar to that heretofore fulfilled by the College of Science. If you take the existing associate students, they may be divided into two classes. There are those who already obtained the associateship of the College of Science and are or would have been entitled under the College of Science rules to proceed to the higher degree of Fellowship of the College of Science. The University is prepared to make provision for that type of associate by giving him leave to go on from his associateship to something higher. What that something higher will be has yet to be determined. It depends mainly on one thing. The associate who desires to proceed to a Fellowship can get that either as a result of courses taken out and attendance at lectures, or by reason of written work presented.

If the associate who desires to proceed further via the University wishes to take a higher degree on written work or wishes to take it as a result of courses attended, the University will make provision in both cases. In one case it will be by degree and in the other case it will be by something to be determined; the University must be allowed to be perfectly free in regard to what that is to be called. It is important to note that it will not in the future be called a Fellowship of the College of Science; that is ruled out. The associate who desires to proceed higher will depend either on written work or on courses attended at the University, but there will be adequate provision made for him.

Mr. O'CONNELL

Will attendance be insisted on?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

No, not with regard to these particular people; that is what I gather. This is all an indication of what is done or what it is hoped will be done. The governing body of the University College will have the final decision in the matter, and nobody can bind that body until that matter comes before them formally. I am dealing with what I understand is accepted by most of the governing body of that College and I do not think there will be the slightest difficulty about it. Nobody could state with certainty, until they have passed some sort of resolution or set up some sort of rule approving of this, that it actually will be the case, but I have not the slightest doubt that this will be done and that an arrangement will be made, both by way of attendance at courses and presentation of written work without attendance at courses, where an associate wishes to proceed higher.

With regard to the existing associates, that may be interpreted in another way. The present student of the College of Science, who normally would have in the next year or two got the title of associate, has been taken over by the University. Most of those people are scholarship-holders, and most of them were warned in the last couple of years, when entering for the scholarship, that they would most likely continue and finish in the University, and their scholarships were given to them on the direct understanding that they were fully acquainted with the likely change, and they made no objection. Again, these people will be catered for by a degree, which in most cases will be the Bachelor of Science degree. So that as far as the associate student is concerned— the man who is partly through his course—he will be taken into the ordinary university system and at the end crowned with a degree if he has continued up to the examination. The associate who wishes to proceed higher will have his way open to something higher also.

With regard to the type of man who ordinarily would have become a student for the associate examinations, that student for the future will enter into the ordinary university system, will have to matriculate in the ordinary way and proceed towards his degree. Non-associate students are more difficult, because they represent the casual student who picked his own courses, attended lectures given by certain professors, and finished by getting a certificate of attendance at those lectures and of proficiency in the subject. But the university system certainly allows for that. University College, Dublin, is very anxious to attract students to the college, and there is already known in that university the practice of students attending at lectures without being matriculated in the university. If the certificate of the professor seems a desirable thing, and if the student's conduct in class warrants it, that certificate can issue in the particular case. So that, in so far as a non-associate student attending lectures and getting a certificate is concerned he will be met by exactly the same type of treatment. He need not matriculate; he can pick his course as he likes, attend professors' lectures, pay fees as was entailed in the College of Science, and get, if he so requires, and if the professor thinks he deserves it, a certificate of attendance at the course and of proficiency in the subject.

As to the question of those who proceed to what is called the diploma as opposed to an associateship or a degree in the university, the university system again provides for these. I think Cork University College has already established a course leading to a diploma in journalism. A person has to be matriculated to enter for that, and four years, I think, is the course for it. The old Royal University used to issue a diploma in engineering. That has lapsed recently, but the diploma may be given. It is at the disposal of the Governing Body of the college.

Deputy Thrift raised a question as to a reciprocal arrangement that existed between the College of Science and Trinity College. He described that in more detail by saying that there are certain arrangements under which a course can be taken out in Trinity College and completed in the College of Science, and certain courses can be taken out at the College of Science and completed at Trinity College. He asked do these simply come to an end or was there any proposal to continue their operation. These do come to an end in a technical way, as the College of Science ceases to exist. A scheme in particular that was approved by the Board of Trinity College and the Department of Agriculture in June, 1922, will definitely come to an end. But if I had been asked by Deputy Thrift what was the likelihood of that old arrangement of June, 1922, being re-made as between University College, Dublin, and Trinity College, I should say that there is every likelihood of that being re-arranged for or continued. In other words, if Trinity College wishes, in the case of students who have attended a course in Trinity College, to make it part of their regulations that attendance over a particular year at a course in University College, Dublin will count towards the completion of that course in Trinity College, then the authorities of University College, Dublin, will offer no objection to that arrangement. The old arrangement technically comes to an end with the end of the College of Science, but there is every likelihood, in fact the greatest possibility, of a new arrangement, put to University College, Dublin, being taken up by them.

Professor THRIFT

Could the Minister add to that anything with reference to those students who are at present taking out a course?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is to say, if an arrangement can be made sufficiently soon to enable students who have entered in Trinity College for a course which entailed attendance at the College of Science for one year, to pass that one year at University College, Dublin, instead of the old College of Science—I think there is every probability of that.

Professor THRIFT

One or two years. The present arrangement is two years at an Arts course followed by two years in an agricultural college.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I think there will be no difficulty in that being arranged. It will be a matter for arrangement between the university authorities. I think I can more or less make a promise that there is every likelihood of that arrangement being entered into. There is just one matter which was rather of a technical nature as between the two colleges—the question of the examining board. I understand the Trinity College authorities used to associate with their professors for the purpose of the examination a professor of the College of Science who had lectured to the students in the particular subject. I do not know if it is proposed to continue that, but again I am authorised to say on behalf, not of the Governing Body, because they have not met and considered it, but of certain of the authorities there, that there will be no objection on the part of the authorities of University College, Dublin, to that arrangement also being continued.

There is just one point with regard to the diploma that I have spoken about before. It is quite possible in the university system to have established diplomas, but it would seem to me, both with regard to that diploma, and with regard to anything to take the place of the old associateship, that the authorities of University College, Dublin, must be free, so far as the title is concerned, because it has been already represented that if a course be set up and, say, an associateship be given at the end of it, that there are certain College of Science students who have already obtained an associateship who may object on the ground that something is now being given with the same title as the title which crowned the examination that they had previously taken, and there may be some doubt as to the standard of the two being the same. In case that objection was made, the University authorities would have to reserve to themselves the right to meet such objection by, say, distinguishing the new degree by some title other than associateship. But, in so far as the College of Science students are concerned, the associates, the diplomatists, and the non-associate students will all have at least the same educational facilities as used to be in the College of Science, and, indeed, owing to the establishment of the new Faculties both in the Cork and Dublin Colleges, they most certainly will have better facilities than they ever enjoyed under the old conditions.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

With reference to present students in the College of Science, would they have the same title as before or not?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I have been speaking on that. One could hardly say they would have the same title. They may or may not get the title of diplomatist or associate because there may be objections raised by previous diplomatists and associates as regards the standard of the new examinations in contrast with the old. Certainly provision will be made for that class of student who is attending certain courses and proceeding to some degree or some diploma. It may be called a diploma or an associateship. I have said that. In regard to even non-associate students there is room in the University system for these and it is intended to give these the same facilities as they had under the College of Science regime.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

Would the Minister's remarks in regard to associate students apply also in regard to Fellows of the college who would like to obtain a higher degree, such as a Doctorate of Science, for instance? They should not be asked to go to a research course at the University, but if they were prepared to submit work of equal merit to the University Authorities would the University be prepared to give them a degree? In other words, without pursuing research courses would they obtain these degrees by submitting work of sufficient merit to the University?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I had not spoken of it on those terms of Fellows proceeding to the degree of Doctor. I had spoken of it in general, paying more attention to the associates who desire to proceed to the higher degree of Fellow, and I was assured on the most general terms that special care would be taken to see that a College of Science student who had advanced to a certain point in the educational system of the College of Science would not be precluded from going any higher than he might have gone under the old College of Science regime. I presume that would apply to a Fellow who wishes to take out a Doctorate as it would apply to an associate who wishes to become a Fellow. The Fellowship would about correspond to the master's degree in the University and the step from that to the Doctorate is arranged definitely in the University course. Again I am not sure whether it does not entail ordinarily work under the supervision of a Professor of the University, but there again the special case of the College of Science student can be taken into consideration and if necessary extra provision made for it.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

Certain representations were made to me on behalf of the Fellows—there are only six or seven of them in the country altogether—that they should not be asked to duplicate their work if they wanted to go on to the higher degree, and I take it that what the Minister stated, as applying in the case of associates who wanted to go to the higher stage, will also apply to the Fellows.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I think so.

Mr. GOOD

One is glad to have this statement we have just listened to from the Minister. It has cleared away many of the difficulties that existed, and there is only one point I should like the Minister to clarify a little more. He has made the position of the non-associate student quite clear. He will not suffer at all by reason of the change, but I am not quite so clear with regard to the associate student. The associate student attended a four-years' course in the College of Science. At the end of that period he got what was known as a diploma of associateship. Assuming these associates do not wish to go any further than what they had in their mind when they entered the College of Science, I presume there would be no difficulty in giving such students a diploma of associateship.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am not sure if the Deputy refers to people already in the College of Science who are proceeding towards an associateship.

Mr. GOOD

Yes, I shall make it a little clearer. As the Minister pointed out, we had the two classes of students. We had the associate student and the non-associate student. The associate student was attending a four years' course under the old College of Science regime. At the end of that he got what was known as a diploma of associateship. Under the new regime if that student does not wish to go any further will he still get what he originally had in mind when he entered the College of Science, that is, a diploma of associateship?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That particular student may get either of two things. He may elect to continue his studies for the diploma of associateship and through the Department of Education up to date—and I have no doubt that will be continued—he was able to get that diploma in the ordinary way. If instead of that he prefers to have a degree and says, "I am now in the University system and I will work for a degree," he will be catered for there. The student now going through the College of Science will have the choice either of an associateship or a degree.

Mr. GOOD

What I had in mind when I put down this amendment was to draw from the Minister some such statement as we had to-night, so under those circumstances I now ask leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Professor THRIFT

I apologise for being late and express regret that I was not here to listen to all the Minister said, but in so far as I did hear him I think he has met the position very fairly. I recognise that he was in a dilemma on the point. I certainly would feel in such a dilemma myself, because I feel strongly that one should not do anything to interfere with the autonomy of the University in such a manner. From the Minister's point of view I think he has indicated a satisfactory line, and so far as I heard it, it seems to me to have been a very satisfactory statement.

Mr. BAXTER

I should like to ask the Minister if he has anticipated that there might be some dissatisfaction on the part of the existing associates or Fellows of the College of Science with regard to the change, that they might feel in any way out in the cold owing to the fact that the College of Science, in which they graduated, no longer exists, and that they have a degree from a college no longer in existence. I do not know what the feelings may be on this point, but I should like to know if there were an indication of, should I say, dissatisfaction or perhaps, it would be from their point of view, something much more serious. Has that aspect of the case been considered or would there be a possibility of conferring on them from the University a degree equivalent to what they now hold in case they are not prepared to pursue their studies any further. Some of them are advanced in years, and they may, it is true, be perfectly satisfied with the standing that the associateship of the College of Science gives. On the other hand as that institution no longer exists they may feel that possessing a degree from an institution not now in existence puts them in a position that, to say the least of it, may not be enviable. I should like if the Minister could make any statement on that he would do so, because I feel it is natural that some of those men may have a grievance over the change.

Professor MAGENNIS

I should like to answer a question put by Deputy O'Connell. Deputy Baxter spoke as if he were under the impression that students of the College of Science proceeded to a degree. Of course, they did not obtain a degree. They became associates of the College of Science. Once the College of Science ceases to exist as such those who had already obtained that position at the completion of their studies of being associates. continued to be associates, precisely as when, for the purpose of the creation of the National University, the Royal University of Ireland was abolished, all who had graduated in that University retained their degrees and the option was given them of becoming enrolled with a similar degree on the register of the National University. Many of them made their election to that effect. Some few still remained graduates of the Royal University of Ireland, without any connection whatsoever with the National University. Suppose, however, we take the case of those who have not yet got the associate diploma, who are and have been students in the College of Science and who will attorn to University College, Dublin, as students of that institution. In the statutes of the University, there is provision made for cases of the kind. You, sir, understand perfectly, but the House may not understand, that University College, Dublin, as a constituent college of the National University of Ireland grants degrees that are degrees of the National University and not merely of University College, Dublin. Similarly, it can provide courses for, and examine students, with a view to the getting of a diploma and it can grant this diploma as a diploma of the University. What Deputy O'Connell has in mind, I think, is this: The University is bound, first of all, by its charter and, secondly, by its statutes, and anything which it does, or purports to do, that it is not empowered to do by its charter or statutes is, of course, ultra vires. Inasmuch as the associateship is not a degree, the University could not, as things at present stand, deal with an associate of the College of Science as it would deal, say, with a graduate of Trinity College—namely, admit him ad eundem and give him a degree of exactly the same academic character and standing. But it could make a provision to that effect and, I daresay, if the demand were there and if it served a public need it would be done.

As regards the Fellowship, it would be possible, under the provisions of the University, for a Fellow to produce published work. In that case, as Deputy O'Connell contemplates, he would not go into the College. He would not attend courses of lectures. He would not be submitted, as a preliminary, to an examination but he would put in published work. If that were the result of research, it would, I think, be possible to meet the case in this way: We frequently have to deal with graduates of other Universities who come to one of the constituent colleges—notably, to University College, Dublin—and pursue there a postgraduate course, with a view to obtaining an M.A. degree—a higher degree than they have. Once those graduates of another University have qualified for that higher degree, they are, with a view to receiving it, admitted ad eundem to the lower degree. That is a somewhat roundabout procedure but it meets the case. So far as one can undertake to prophesy about the decisions of the Senate of the National University, I have not the slightest doubt that so far as the six or seven men who have the Fellowship of the College of Science are concerned there will be nothing left undone to provide them with all reasonable facilities for going further with their academic work and for qualifying to receive the Doctor degree of the University. I am anxious—and this is the reason I spoke at all—to insist that the University is bound by its statutes and the ordinances made for it but it has power to make new statutes to deal with new situations. Even with its present powers, it can set up diploma courses and grant diplomas; it can admit to ad eundem degrees and it can confer honorary degrees. In addition to all those plenary powers, it is able to make new statutes and, therefore, I am quite confident in saying that the transfer of the College of Science to University College, Dublin, will not make worse the position of any of its existing or former students. It will certainly provide them, so far as the spirit and attitude of the University is concerned, with facilities that they had not before.

Mr. NORTON

On the Second Reading of this Bill, I raised the question of Dr. Denham, Lecturer in Agricultural Bacteriology, who was on the staff of the College of Science, and who is the only officer whose services will be dispensed with under the operations of this Bill. I would like to know from the Minister, firstly, if he knows the circumstances of the case. Otherwise, I shall have to state them.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I should not like the Deputy to state them. I think the Deputy should be warned that it will not be for the benefit of Dr. Denham if the facts are stated here.

Mr. NORTON

Dr. Denham received a communication from the Department of Education asking him if he would transfer to University College on certain terms. He accepted the transfer on the conditions enumerated in the circular. Having accepted the transfer and believing his position to be safeguarded, he awaited developments. He then got three months' notice of the termination of his services. I do not know what case the Minister is going to make against this gentleman, but I do know that he has filled this lectureship since 1919 without any question as to his ability. If the Education Department cannot arrange to absorb him in University College, they should, at least, compensate him on the same terms as the teachers in Marlborough Street Training College were compensated. If the Minister is not disposed to absorb him, I should like to know if this officer is to receive compensation after the seven years' service he has rendered?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Before I reply to Deputy Norton, might I just stress one point which has been made by Deputy Magennis. That is with regard to certain advertence being made to the diploma of an associate, with a view to admission to a similar distinction in the National University. I think the Deputy is right when he says that it cannot be considered as a degree. But apart from that, if it comes to a question of amending statutes or doing anything within the power of the University, I think there is going to be very great argument before it will be considered that these Associates of the College of Science have in equity any call upon the University to grant them degrees instead of their diplomas as associates. That point has been raised in a letter to the Press. It is one of the points on which I could not give any assurance as to what the likely course of action of the University will be. I would have my own point of view about it. I do not think the case is on all fours, for example, with the case of the graduates of the Royal University who were given the option of applying for a degree of the National University, because the old Royal graduates were graduates of a University, and they were really the pioneers in the struggle which finally resulted in the setting up of the National University. They had other claims as well. The College of Science Associate is losing nothing. Whatever value the diploma of associate had it still has. It was recognised by the Education Department as equivalent to certain things and as entitling the holder to certain things. It still has that force. It loses nothing. If anything, it gains by the fact that there will be no more Associates of the College of Science. The diploma will become more of a rarity as time goes on. There is no handicap on any person who has the associate diploma of the College of Science. He is in no way prejudicially affected. He is entitled to the same consideration as he was entitled to before. I do not think there is any case at all for considering, even if it were possible under the statutes, that a person should be given a degree of the National University instead of his diploma as associate of the College of Science.

Professor MAGENNIS

On a point of explanation I mentioned the case of Royal University graduates after the creation of the National University, to illustrate the position of men with academic qualifications belonging to an extinct institution. Associates of the College of Science, in the worst position imaginable, would be in the same position as graduates of the Royal University who did not attorn to the National University; they would have degrees from an institution that used to function.

Mr. JOHNSON

Graduates of an extinct institution?

Professor MAGENNIS

If I am not out of order in referring to Deputy Johnson's interruption, he seems to be under the impression that in the world where these degrees or diplomas have value there is a loss of value of a qualification that once stood high, merely because of the fact that the institution which gave it had disappeared. That is not so. Whatever value attached to the Associateship of the College of Science last year attaches to it for the year, and will attach to it for the future.

Professor THRIFT

Before the Minister replies to Deputy Norton might I be allowed to say a word or two in support of the case made by the Deputy. I think it would be regrettable if there was one single exception made as a departure from the general principle that was laid before the staff when this scheme was put before it. A meeting of the staff was held at which all were present, including the gentleman referred to and, on the understanding that they were to receive appointments or positions under the new scheme, comparable to the ones that they then had, the scheme was accepted.

Now surely it must be possible that there is work for him under the future scheme as in the past. I think, that if at all possible, it would be far better to keep to that general principle. But, again, if it is absolutely necessary to make an exception I think attention should be paid to the point that he was one of those consulted and his consent obtained. I think that mere fact recognises that he has a right to consideration, and, in that case, I support Deputy Norton's second suggestion that if it is found impossible to employ him his case should receive special consideration.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

With regard to the case of Dr. Denham the Minister for Education threw out certain hints on the last day, and indicated that he did not think it desirable to go any further into this matter, but Deputies here seem to insist that the whole facts should be made known. Dr. Denham was merely temporarily on the staff. He was appointed at a certain salary and there were certain increments due to him. He did not get any increments. It was not considered that his work entitled him to any, long before the question of the College of Science was under consideration.

Mr. NORTON

Were there any other lecturers in the same position who have been taken over?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Not that I know of.

Mr. NORTON

Would the Minister be surprised to know that there were?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I might express some small surprise but there is another thing to be taken into consideration. Deputy Thrift puts it this way: Surely there is some post that this man could be fitted into on the change over. The two things have to be considered together. Is there work for this particular officer and is this particular officer fit to do the work if it is there? Putting these two things together there is no case for Dr. Denham being taken over. There is, first of all, the fact of his not having secured his increaments, in the ordinary way, in which he would have been entitled to do had his work been regarded as satisfactory. There is the other point that when the Minister for Lands and Agriculture was drawing up a scheme with regard to the faculty of agriculture there was no position, corresponding to the position that Dr. Denham held, that he thought should be filled under the new order of things. Putting these two things together there was no case for Dr. Denham being taken over. On the matter of compensation Dr. Denham is not entitled to any and, consequently, the Minister for Finance cannot pay any unless there is a special vote of this House with regard to that particular officer.

Professor THRIFT

With regard to the question of increments, I understand there is one case in which an increment was paid but then, in the state of transition two years ago, the increment ceased to be given. I am sorry the Minister for Education is not here because I gave him full details and I understand he was inquiring into the matter. Perhaps the Minister for Industry and Commerce may be able to say whether there is such a case of apparent lapse of increment merely, because of want of inquiry on the part of the Department. This is the case of a most satisfactory member of the staff. He is in charge of a department and, therefore, in a different position from certain other lecturers. I am inclined to think it was entirely due to an oversight that that increment was not continued in the ordinary way. Would the Minister undertake to look into the matter and see if that is so?

Question put and agreed to.

Final Stage of the Bill ordered to be taken to-morrow.