I move the Second Reading of the Telephone Capital Bill, 1927. It is to enable the Minister for Finance to borrow and advance to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs a sum of £500,000 for telephone capital. The sum of £500,000 provided in the Telephone Capital Act of 1924 is now exhausted. The expenditure, since the setting up of the Saorstát, on telephone capital has been as follows:- 1922-23, £40,457; 1923-24, £23,870; 1924-25, £110,377; 1925-26, £205,733. That left a sum of £90,000, roughly, available in the present financial year. That £90,000 has been exhausted. In fact, in recent weeks we have advanced what was available in the Contingency Fund, pending the provision of capital otherwise, to prevent the stoppage of work in connection with telephone extensions and improvements.
ORDERS OF THE DAY. - TELEPHONE CAPITAL BILL, 1927—SECOND STAGE.
I expect it is necessary to give the House a brief review of the necessity for this rather big advance of State monies. As the Minister for Finance has explained, up to date this House has been good enough to extend the use of its finances to the extent of practically half a million. The present request is for a similar amount. The former monies were used in general development. That development fell under what I may term for convenience four distinct headings. On the construction of trunks throughout the country we spent £26,900; in the setting-up of subscribers' connections and call offices, £38,600; for underground work, £111,180; and for automatic extensions, £123,000.
Now, the product of this sum of money was portrayed in a map which I caused to be issued to members of the Oireachtas within the last month, and it was more adequately portrayed there than I could possibly portray it through any remarks of mine here. It showed development prior to the taking over by this State, the development since, work in being, and work in contemplation. I venture to say the progress which has been made in the telephone development here, as seen through that map, came as a pleasant surprise to a great many people. It showed an expansion, in the brief period of two years since the clearing up of the trouble consequent on the civil war, which must certainly be regarded as satisfactory and, if continued at the rate obtaining during that period, it must necessarily within a brief period of years find telephones very general in the State.
When we ask for monies from the State for this purpose, we really take nothing from the taxpayer. We merely utilise his monies just as we utilise a loan from banking institutions. They are paid back in their entirety, principal and interest, over a number of years, varying from fifteen to twenty. Therefore the taxpayer has had no loss in this advance. In the sum which we now seek, we find that a rather considerable part will be required for building and extension work. With the development throughout the country it has been borne in on us that no further time can be lost in enlarging our central offices. Crown Alley, for instance, is altogether inadequate for present-day extensions. Similarly, in the case of Cork, we found it necessary to take over the big sorting office there for telephones. We took over the entire sorting office, and we took a substitute office for postal work in another section of the city. Generally, the same principle applies to the smaller offices. In other words, we have got to make progress with buildings in keeping with this development which the Deputies saw in that map which we circulated.
Deputies from certain parts of the country may perhaps feel that sufficient attention in this development has not been paid to their respective quarters. But it will be understood at the same time that it has not been possible, with a necessarily limited technical staff at our disposal, to grapple with every place at the same time. We have to do it on a regular system, taking the nearer quarters first and then striking out. There are two parts of the country which are rather behind time in this development. One is Mayo, particularly West and North Mayo; and another in Donegal But, notwithstanding, anything that Deputies may observe in the map to which I have already referred, no time will be lost in getting into these quarters either. It is entirely a matter of time——
That is most conciliatory.
——governed by staff requirements. Now we are encouraged to get ahead with telephone development for one reason in particular, and that is, the fact that telephones are rather rapidly assuming the position of paying their way. Prior to our time the telephone service in this country was run at rather a heavy loss.
In 1922-23 that loss was £46,000; in 1923-24 we reduced that loss to £25,000; in 1924-25 it disappeared. In the Budget of 1925-26 we caused a very considerable and a very substantial concession to be made to telephone users. The result was that in 1925-26 we suffered a loss of £35,000. Now during the current year, from the figures that have come my way, I am satisfied that we are breaking down that loss, and I do not think it would be over-optimistic to forecast the possibility of its entire disappearance during the financial year 1927-28. This is not a matter to which I need necessarily refer here, but in such a contingency I would favour a further reduction on telephones, because I believe that the cheaper the telephones are the more rapid will be their installation; that is pretty obvious, of course. The other course to follow — and the Minister for Finance at the time may be tempted to take that course — is to incorporate any profit arising from this section of the Post Office into the General Post Office Accounts. In other words, to place it against the loss which will, in all probability, still obtain in the working of this service. I think that would be an unfortunate decision. We have approached a stage of cheapness here not very much wide of the most advanced countries. But there is still a gap to be bridged and it may be advisable to bear in mind that that gap should be bridged before anything like a very general use of the telephone will be availed of. For that reason I would favour a still further reduction in telephone charges when the service pays its way, rather than take any profits arising from the service and place them to the credit of the common postal account. If any Deputy should require information in regard to this proposal I will be only too pleased to endeavour to give it.
I think the Minister is entitled to be congratulated on that particular department of his service, that is the telephone department. He has certainly given an amount of attention to that particular department, and he has made a greater success of it than any other department of his work. Possibly there are opportunities in that department that do not exist in the other departments. But I would like to say that while I do not want to take from what he has done in that department, I should like to be able to congratulate him on an equal success in his other departments. Speaking particularly of this work, I think part of the success is due to the policy that the Minister wisely adopted in connection with the telephone system. He went out for cheap charges and he went out to extend the telephone system through the medium of cheap charges. I hope he will continue to extend that system and that cheapness. While we enjoy the telephone system at the moment at a comparatively low rate, I think it is possible to work that system even with still greater efficiency and at a still lower charge. It is obvious that the more the charges are reduced the greater will be the attraction to telephone subscribers.
I was glad to hear from the Minister that he has that policy in mind and that he hopes to follow along the lines that have led to success so far. There is one particular charge in connection with telephones that I would like some information about and that is in connection with trunk charges. It does appear to me that trunk charges at the present moment are at a high figure. The Minister will, doubtless, have comparative tables to show us whether that is so or not, but he has pointed out to us that in his capital expenditure a considerable portion of that capital expenditure was allotted to the improvement of trunk telephones. That, I think, is a wise capital expenditure. But one would like to see more advantage taken of that expenditure and to see more advantage taken of trunk calls than there is at the moment. I think that possibly the charges there are a deterrent. On that particular question I would be glad if the Minister would give us some additional information.
While I have listened to the Minister's statement with considerable interest I have not the least intention of congratulating him, as the previous speaker has done. I have studied the map that was issued by his department with considerable interest, and while I find that the telephone services in many parts of the Saorstát have been highly developed, notably in Cork and many southern counties, we in Donegal, at least the area from which I come, have been left weeping in the wilderness. According to the telephone system outlined in the map, so far as my study of it goes, my opinion is that the telephone will reach the town and area in which I live in about four years. I might ask a very practical question: who will be there at the expiration of four years to enjoy the service? I hope I will be there myself. It is not in a spirit of criticising the estimates, or the statement of the Minister, that I speak this evening, but to make an appeal to the Minister to speed up the system in the county from which I come. I do not think there is anything unreasonable in asking that, or in asking the Minister's special attention to this particular area of the Saorstát. Four years is a long time to wait for telephone accommodation, especially when other towns — one town within ten miles of me on the east, and another within the same distance on the west—have perfect systems of wires, while we in Inishowen, an important market town, have no telephone system whatever. According to the map, we need not expect a telephone extension to our town sooner than the period I mention, namely, four years. I submit to the Minister and to his department that that is an unreasonable period to wait, taking into consideration the present position of affairs. The Minister must well recognise the fact that the world, or rather the Saorstát, is travelling at a terrific pace.
In which direction?
In every direction. I would say that the pace of the department should be speeded up in getting telephones installed into my area.
I expected to hear from the Minister something in regard to the proposed development of automatic telephone services. It was understood, I think, that his department was about to supply Dublin at any rate with some such service. Possibly the provision for that will be made in a later estimate, but when the Minister gave us, as he did, an account of the progress which his department is making I feared that the absence from it of any such reference might herald the dropping of the intention to introduce automatic services. I know that many months ago I had the honour of a visit of two of the myrmidons, minions, or servants of the Minister. Fortunately I arrived at home in time to discover these men laboriously making measurements and tramping about the house. When I asked them the object of their visit they explained that they were devising a method of bringing wires from the back of the house to the front. I was delighted to have any sort of telephone instead of the one I have, and I look forward to that arrangement with considerable satisfaction. I asked if they were for their own convenience replacing the present unsatisfactory telephone with an automatic instrument, would it be desirable to have it in a room at the back. A fortnight later I received a notice that inasmuch as I wanted my telephone exchanged from the front to the back, it would cost me an estimated sum, about 30/- I think. I had then to give an elaborate explanation to the Department that I did not want to transfer the telephone instrument from the study to the back of the house, but in view of the installation of a new service it would be easier to put it where the installation of wires and breaking through walls would be avoided. Since then I heard nothing. I have reason to believe that these men came to see whether or not I had a listening-in installation. What does it cost the Minister to tap lines and overhear conversations? Is any money included in this estimate to meet that expenditure? I was frequently told by those who communicated with me that there was something wrong with my telephone. I knew there was, but I did not know exactly what it was. The same thing was wrong with my telephone during the Black and Tan period and it disappeared with the Treaty, or rather with the recent pacification of the country.
resumed the Chair.
It disappeared when you joined the Government Party.
It is rather an extraordinary thing that I was repeatedly notified of this phenomenon. At last I was driven to lodge a complaint, and was told by an agreeable employee that an observation would be kept upon my line, and for a fortnight, during the period of observation, the phenomenon disappeared. Personally I make the candid confession that I think it was due to some technical flaw in the apparatus, but people who communicated with me refused to accept that charitable explanation. The Minister takes credit for a great improvement in the telephone service. It is, undoubtedly, a comfort to know that while little countries like Sweden, Norway and Switzerland are in front of all the world in telephone services, we are not left lagging behind hopelessly. The Minister has realised that the trend of affairs in the world of communication to-day is to substitute telephone for postal messages. In the most progressive countries, while statistics show that the number of letters that pass in ordinary business transactions is lessening, the number of telephone calls is more than proportionately increasing. The business community are entitled to an excellent service, and, possibly, it may be that the defects of the service for private individuals are due to concentration and the effort to cut down expenses. concentration rather upon services at certain hours of the day to help the business community. If I could discover how to give notice for the discontinuance of my service, and at what precise date to make it operate, I should long ago have done so. I mention this to bring some solace to the disconsolate heart of Deputy White. Deputy White and his people weeping in the wilderness while others secure good telephone service make a pathetic spectacle. I think it would be equally spectacular if Deputy White and his constituents were afflicted with a telephone service such as that of which I have reason to complain. There are telephones and telephones. I wish that the Minister, when spending money to extend the telephone services, would also give a little attention to the requirements of those who are provided with an installation, because he may lose from leakage in one direction what he may gain by new subscribers in another. I sympathise unquestionably with his desire to cut down expenditure. I know that the attendants in the central office are overworked, and I make no complaint about them personally. I merely express the hope that the Minister will be able, in his extension of the service, to keep a cessation of subscriptions away. He can only do that by trying to curb his endeavours in the direction of new accuisitions in so far as they interfere with the provision of good service to present subscribers.
I would like to say a few words congratulating the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs on the vast improvement he has made during the last few years in the telephone service. Deputy Magennis complained that his particular telephone seems to have been listened into more than ordinary subscribers. Everyone knows in connection with wireless and telephones that the atmospheric conditions are often the cause of the difficulty in getting through. I have got through to Dublin innumerable times, but found it impossible then to carry on a conversation over the wires. I think there has been a vast improvement in the telephone service. I also think the suggestion made by Deputy Magennis, that his special telephone was listened into in order that the conversation going on between him and others might be heard is uncalled for and unfair to the Department. I do not believe one word of it. I stand up to defend the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, as I believe I am entitled to do so, as one who has a very considerable amount of experience in the use of the telephone.
I think I am entitled to say in explanation that it was not I originated the suggestion of tapping, but those who were talking to me. I declared my readiness to regard the explanation as a mechanical defect in my instrument. The Deputy who interferes in this matter is speaking in total ignorance of the facts.
On a point of explanation I may say that if anyone has a complaint to make about their telephone they have the supervisor to get through to.
Quite right.
Did you ring him up?
I would like to support what Deputy Shaw has said in praise of the Minister's work in distributing the telephone services throughout the country. It has been extended in County Kildare, and, after several years, I succeeded in persuading the Minister to establish it at Kilcock. I am curious to know if it is paying there. Whether it is or not, it is very much appreciated there and in other places throughout the county. The telephone is being largely used, and all who use it realise what a convenience it is. I am on a party line with 13 other people, and I would sooner do without any other service than the telephone. I think the other subscribers think the same way. I would like to see the telephone in every house throughout the country. I would like to see it provided cheaply, so that those who are not now able to afford it would be able to do so. Nothing opens up the country so quickly or is a greater source of convenience to the great body of the people in the rural districts than the telephone service. I hope the Minister's efforts to extend the service will be still more successful during the coming year.
Deputy Good has urged that the earliest possible opportunity should be availed of to reduce trunk charges. I agree. I think it would be helpful to the general development if a reduction in charges were to take place. I hope when that subject is being considered at some future date special reference will be made to these trunk charges. For the time being we have no special reason to make a reduction. Notwithstanding our duplication, or, if you like, triplication of trunk connections through the country, we are scarcely able to keep pace with public requirements. Nevertheless, I am satisfied the charges are somewhat heavy, and when a reduction in telephones is possible generally, because of the improving financial position, the special claim of trunks will be considered. Deputy White seems unduly pessimistic regarding his particular territory. However, I would like to remind him that up to twelve months ago we had no direct connection from Dublin to Sligo. We have now two trunk lines with that city. In addition to these direct trunks to Sligo, we have opened up and installed a great number of telephones in Bundoran and likewise in Ballyshannon. We have opened a considerable number of call offices in the south-west of the county from Ballyshannon. We are now laying trunks on through Ballybofey and Stranorlar to join up with Derry and eventually the peninsula of Inishowen. I should not be surprised if within the next six or eight months we find there is a trunk connection to the door of the territory which Deputy White refers to. I believe he will find that the development in that district will be very much more rapid than he anticipates.
Deputy Magennis wishes to know whether we have made up our minds in regard to automatic exchange development. We are installing two automatics in Dublin, one in Merrion and another in the Castle area. The Castle area ought to be open about the middle of the present year, and Merrion about the end of the year or early next year. The question of introducing automatics through Crown Alley has arisen and is being considered. It is a very heavy job, and one that we can only decide on after mature consideration. We have to take into account the loss of employment as against the huge amount of money which the introduction of these automatics will necessitate sending from the country. That viewpoint is being discussed just now, and within the next month or so I intend to submit a case to the Minister for Finance in regard to it.
It is an easy thing to rush to conclusions in regard to the tapping of wires. Prior to the assumption of the authority that I now possess, I frequently came to the conclusion that my predecessors were engaged in that work — that was in the British days — and the consequence was that I avoided the use of the telephone. I suppose that was common to many people connected with the Irish-Ireland movement. The same feeling seems to obtain in certain circles now, but I want absolutely to assure the Deputy that as a policy or as a practice no such thing exists in the service. The first step I took in taking over this service was to give a general and definite instruction that no tapping whatever of any communications passing through the service, whether in the form of telegrams, letters or telephone calls, should occur. If there had been any departure from that it would very quickly be public property, and I want to assure the Dáil that there has not been and will not be as long as I am connected with the service. Apparent tapping arises from a number of causes. The wires in the district to which the Deputy refers — the Merrion district — are very old and the general apparatus with which they are connected is very shaky. Owing to these two defects the wire is inconstant — it is subject to variation over which we have no control in the absence of modern installation. Another point that should be borne in mind is that operators are bound by very strict rules to intercept calls at the termination of the scheduled time. That may not be very popular with users, but it is indispensable to the conduct of the service. It sometimes happens that a person engages in a conversation with a friend and forgets altogether the fact that other people may be requiring the line. In any case, the operator cannot indefinitely hold on until the conversation plays itself out. These are two points which rather give the idea that there is interception. Let me again assure the Deputy, not only on my own behalf, but in fairness to the staff, that no such practice prevails in the service to-day and will not prevail.
In regard to the call which an official made to the Deputy's house, I cannot, of course, state the exact object, but I take it that in anticipation of the introduction of the automatics to the Merrion district this call may have been found necessary. Beyond that I cannot explain.