I move amendment 1:—
In page 3, line 43, Section 2, after the word "notes" to insert the words "or in relation to consolidated bank notes."
These words are necessary for the purpose of completing the definition.
PRIVATE BUSINESS. - CURRENCY BILL, 1927—REPORT.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment 2:—
In page 3, Section 2, to delete lines 46 to 51.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment 3:—
In page 4, Section 2, to insert between lines 11 and 12 the words "the expression ‘unanimous vote' when used in relation to the Commission means the unanimous vote of all persons who are at the time being members of the Commission other than members who are prohibited by this Act from taking part in the vote."
The purpose of the amendment is to remove all doubt as to the meaning of the expression "unanimous vote." It makes it clear that it does not mean the unanimous vote of the members who may happen to be present on a particular occasion.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment 4:—
In page 4, line 36, Section 4 (1), after the words "form of" to insert the word "a."
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment 5:—
In page 7, Section 17 (1), lines 60 and 61, to delete the word "Shareholding" and to delete all from the word "and" in line 62 to the end of the sub-section, and to delete the word "Shareholding" in sub-section (2), line 4, sub-section (3), line 10, and sub-section (4), line 13.
This amendment is to meet a case I put up on Committee Stage. I do not think it quite meets the whole of the case that I put up, but it is certainly an improvement on the Bill as originally drafted.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment 6:—
In page 8, Section 17, to delete sub-section (5), and substitute therefor a new sub-section as follows:—
"(5) In this section the word ‘Bank' means a bank carrying on business in Saorstát Eireann or holding to the knowledge of the Chairman a controlling interest in a bank carrying on business in Saorstát Eireann, and references to shares in a bank shall be construed as including stock, shares, debentures, debenture stock, bonds, or other securities of such bank."
I think that amendments 5, 6 and 7 might be considered together. The Chairman is prohibited from holding shares in any bank carrying on business in Saorstát Eireann or any bank which has to the knowledge of the Chairman a controlling interest in a bank in Saorstát Eireann.
It is not proposed to go as far as Deputy Cooper suggested, because it is not desirable to put unnecessary restrictions on a chairman or nominated Commissioner. You might have banks in Japan or anywhere else which would have no relation with the banks here and which could by no means interfere with the judgment of the chairman on any matter. Further, the possession of shares is not at all likely to influence the individual unless he had an enormous holding and had some very direct interest in the way a director would have.
I am sorry that the Minister has not been able to go a little further. Still, I welcome the distance he has gone. I would suggest to him that possibly it would be desirable to define the words "controlling interest." It seems to me that they might easily be capable of various interpretations in law, and when the Bill is before the Seanad, where there are persons more experienced in banking than there are in the Dáil, the Minister might get an amendment passed defining these words.
I will consider whether that is necessary. The Deputy knows the kind of case that it is intended to meet.
I do.
Amendment agreed to.
I move:—
In page 8, Section 17, to delete sub-section (5) and substitute therefor a new sub-section as follows:—
"(5) In this section the word ‘Bank' means a bank carrying on business in Saorstát Eireann or holding to the knowledge of the Chairman a controlling interest in a bank carrying on business in Saorstát Eireann, and references to shares in a bank shall be construed as including stock, shares, debentures, debenture stock, bonds or other securities of such bank."
This goes with the two previous amendments. They are all part of the one thing.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In page 8, Section 18 (6), line 52 and lines 53 and 54, to delete the words "a Shareholding Bank" and substitute therefor the words "any bank whatsoever."
This goes a little further. It prevents the nominated Commissioner from being a director of any bank whatsoever.
The Minister is a person of such discretion that I welcome him when he goes a little further than usual. Certainly I think he has improved the Bill in that respect.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In page 10, line 3, Section 21 (1), to delete the word "Shareholding" and to delete all from the word "and" in line 4 to the end of the sub-section, and to delete the word "Shareholding" in sub-section (2), line 10, sub-section (3), lines 16 and 17, and sub-section (4), lines 19 and 20.
In page 10, Section 21, to delete sub-section (5) and substitute therefor a new sub-section as follows:—
(5) In this section the word "bank" means a bank carrying on business in Saorstát Eireann or holding to the knowledge of the nominated Commissioner a controlling interest in a bank carrying on business in Saorstát Eireann, and references to shares in a bank shall be construed as including stock, shares, debentures, debenture stock, bonds, or other securities of such bank.
These two amendments taken together apply to the nominated Commissioner the same restrictions as to the holding of shares as applies to the Chairman.
Amendments put and agreed to.
I move:—
In page 14, line 13, Section 31 (4), to delete the words and figures "Acts 1834 to 1923" and substitute therefor the word and figures "Act, 1892."
This is a drafting amendment. The substituted reference is more correct because it mentions the only Act which deals with public funds in the technical sense that is contemplated.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In page 14, line 50, Section 33 (4), after the word "vote" to add the words "except in regard to any of the following matters, that is to say:
(a) declaring an ordinary Commissioner to be disqualified from holding office as such Commissioner, or
(b) admitting a bank to be a Shareholding Bank, or
(c) removing a bank from being a Shareholding Bank, or
(d) fixing the maximum amount of consolidated bank notes which may under this Act be outstanding otherwise than on an extraordinary issue, or
(e) fixing the quota or proportion of consolidated bank notes which may under this Act be outstanding with a Shareholding Bank."
This follows a suggestion made by Deputy Johnson that the chairman should not have a casting vote but that every decision of the Commission should have to be reached by an absolute majority. I said that I did not care to go as far as that, because there were many matters which might well be decided without any harm by a casting vote, but I agreed with him that there might be certain matters which could only be decided by an absolute majority of the Commission. I have set down the matters which I think should be so decided.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In page 15 to add at the end of Section 37 a new sub-section as follows:—
(3) Information in regard to the business of a banker acquired by the Chairman or an officer of the Commission by the exercise of the powers of access to or inspection of books or records conferred by this Act shall not be communicated by the Chairman or such officer to any ordinary Commissioner in any form which would enable such information to be identified as relating to the dealings of such banker with any particular customer or other person.
This is to give effect to a promise which I made on the Committee Stage. On that stage I inserted an amendment providing that members of the Commission and their officers should make a declaration of secrecy similar to the declaration made by ordinary banking people. This goes a stage further and provides that the Chairman or other officer of the Commission who inspects the records and books of a bank is prohibited from communicating the information he obtains in the course of his work even to an ordinary member of the Commission, so that I think the utmost degree of secrecy will be secured. He cannot submit that information in such a way that it could be identified as relating to a particular person.
I am not quite sure that the Minister has met the case put up in Committee. This prohibits disclosure to any Commissioner, but not disclosure to anybody else.
That is prohibited by the declaration of secrecy—Section 32.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In page 16, line 36, Section 41 (1), after the word "or" to insert the words "by unanimous vote."
When we were discussing Section 41 Deputy Thrift, I think, objected to the very wide powers given to the Commission. Sub-section (1) of the section as it stands reads:—
The Commission may in its absolute discretion on any of the grounds expressly authorised by this Act or on any other ground which appears to the Commission to be sufficient remove any Shareholding Bank from being a Shareholding Bank.
I agreed with Deputy Thrift that the powers were too wide, and after consideration I came to the conclusion that the best way to deal with this was to make the removal on grounds other than the grounds expressly authorised by the Bill possible only by the unanimous vote of the Commission.
I think that meets the point.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In page 17, line 58, Section 44 (1), after the words "with the" to insert the word "unanimous."
This is to a section which was inserted on the Committee Stage. The section enables the Minister, with the concurrence of the Commission, to make regulations prescribing the times and intervals and the form in which Shareholding Banks shall publish their respective balance sheets. The case was made to me since that that was a power which was perhaps capable of being used vexatiously. There is no intention that it should be so used. The object is to secure that the banks shall publish balance sheets at more frequent intervals than they do at present, and that in publishing these balance sheets they shall give information as to deposits and advances which will distinguish the deposits and advances dealt with in Saorstát branches from the deposits and advances dealt with in other branches. I do not say that it is desirable or necessary that the banks should publish monthly balance sheets. They formerly published half-yearly balance sheets, but their tendency lately has been only to publish yearly balance sheets. I think that, as in South Africa, the reasonable thing would be to have quarterly balance sheets. But I am now proposing to require the unanimous concurrence of the Commission. I am certain that the banks and the Commission will agree to some reasonable arrangement in regard to the publication of these matters. If the banks do not agree, of course, the matter could be reconsidered, but I assume that a reasonable attitude will be taken up.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In page 20, line 37, Section 51 (1), to delete the word "hereinafter" and substitute the words "in this Act."
This is a drafting amendment.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In page 23, line 46, Section 56, to delete all words from and including the word "issued" to the end of the sub-section and to substitute therefor the words "outstanding with such bank (otherwise than by virtue of an extraordinary issue) at any one time together with the amount of the bank notes of such bank issued in such place outside Saorstát Eireann which are estimated by the Commission to be in circulation at that time on a fiduciary basis shall not form an excessive proportion in the opinion of the Commission of the total amount of the advances made (whether in or outside Saorstát Eireann) at that time by such bank to its customers."
In page 23, at the end of Section 56, to add a new sub-section as follows:—
"(2) Any abatement under this section during the course of the initial or triennial period of the amount of consolidated bank notes which may be outstanding with such bank (otherwise than by virtue of an extraordinary issue) shall be effected only by unanimous vote of the Commission but no ordinary Commissioner shall vote on or otherwise take part in proceedings under this section in relation to a bank of which he is a director or by which he is employed."
These two amendments stand together. They are to replace what was formerly Section 53. They deal with a matter which is somewhat difficult, due to the fact that certain banks will have a right of note issue outside the Saorstát. At present we do not know what that rate will be, and we will not know what amount will be issued or how their issue will be regulated. It cannot be doubted that the amount of their note issue outside the Saorstát must be considered when allotments are made to them of Saorstát issue, and when increases or decreases are made of the amounts which they may issue in the Saorstát. We thought at first that we might relate their total issue to something like one-tenth of their advances, or one-tenth of their assets, but the more we considered it the more impossible it appeared to arrive at a satisfactory measure. What we propose to do now is simply to direct specifically the attention of the Commission to this matter and impose upon them an obligation to consider it. We provide that an abatement on note issue, made because of the considerations of note issue outside the Saorstát during the initial or triennial period, shall be effected only by the unanimous vote of the Commission. That is to ensure that a bank will not be in any way unreasonably treated. It should be noted, of course, that apart altogether from this section, when the Commission is reviewing the allocation of note issue it will take into account the position created by any external right of note issue.
I think that this is one of the points on which the casting vote of the Chairman should not be allowed to settle the matter. The Commission might be very divided and it might depend upon the casting vote.
I think this is really covered by the other exclusions. I will examine that.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move:—
In page 29, line 10, Section 64 (4), to delete the word "expelling" and substitute the word "removing."
In page 30, line 12, Section 65 (4), to delete the word "expelling" and substitute the word "removing."
These are consequential amendments.
I must apologise to the Minister for not having put them down. We have had to read so many Bills lately that it is very hard to draft all the amendments.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.
I do not propose to set down the next stage before next Friday. Representations have been made to me by certain Senators that it would be impossible to consider this Bill between now and the dissolution. I have no wish to attempt to rush this particular Bill. I think it is a Bill for which all reasonable opportunities for consideration should be given. At the same time it is necessary that it should be passed as soon as possible for several reasons. It is necessary that any question of currency changes should be out of the way before we come to make an issue of a loan. It is also necessary that there should be no delay in setting up the Commission, so that the revenue which we anticipate from the new system of note issue, and on which we calculated in the Budget, may be forthcoming. But I have gathered that if I were to press the Seanad to pass it before the dissolution it would be regarded as somewhat unreasonable, and because of different amendments that had to be made and because of the time taken up by consultation with various interests which led to these amendments, the passage of the Bill through the Dáil has been delayed more than we anticipated. Consequently, as I say, while I feel that it is necessary that immediately the Oireachtas reassembles after the dissolution the Bill should be got through, I am not trying to-day to send it up to the Seanad in order that it might be passed before the dissolution.
Will the Minister bear in mind that Deputy Redmond has strong views on the Bill and possibly he may not return?
I will give him every opportunity, but I do not think he would do anything to the Bill.
It will take him until the end of next session to understand it.
Final Stage ordered for Friday, 20th inst.