Deputy Kennedy has given notice that he will raise a matter on the adjournment, and Deputy Carney also gave notice that he would like to raise a matter on the adjournment. Deputy Kennedy gave notice that he would raise the question of the inability of farmers to pay their debts. That will have to be connected with some Minister so that he can make some reply.
LEWIN (GALWAY) ESTATE. - QUESTIONS ON THE ADJOURNMENT.
I did not know exactly to whom to address the question, whether to the Ministry as a whole, or to the Minister for Agriculture, or the Minister for Finance, or the Minister for Justice, and I should like a little light on the subject. The matter concerns agriculture, and I believe the remedy proposed for it is the Agricultural Credits Corporation, and it may be that it is with the Minister who is responsible for that Act that I should raise the matter.
What the Deputy wants to raise is a question as to when the Agricultural Credits Corporation Act will come into force?
Not exactly.
On the adjournment I desire to get, if possible, a definite question to which the President or a Minister could be expected, within the compass of time allowed, to reply. Is the question the Deputy wants to raise the enforcement of decrees, for example?
Yes. My point is that these processes are abnormal at present, and very likely to continue over the Recess and they require attention. I want to point out that they are abnormal, and to ask the Ministry to do something in reference to them.
We will take it that it is a question of processes against farmers.
Yes.
I am not certain that I am clear about that, but I will take the notice.
I wish to give notice that I shall raise, on the adjournment, a matter arising out of a question which I addressed to the Minister for Justice but which does not appear on the Order Paper.
We can only have one question on the adjournment. That is clear. The Deputy wants to raise, on the adjournment, a matter regarding a question that does not appear on the Order Paper.
A question addressed to the Minister for Justice which you, sir, did not permit to appear upon the Order Paper.
If it is a question I did not permit to appear upon the Order Paper, then I do not know how the Deputy is going to raise it.
Only it seems to me——
Before the Deputy commits himself to what it seems to him, I want to say that when questions are sent in, addressed to Ministers, the Ceann Comhairle, under the Standing Orders, is sole judge of order in the Dáil, and a question to appear on the Order Paper must satisfy the Ceann Comhairle. Standing Order 30 says:
"The Ceann Comhairle shall examine every question in order to insure that its purpose is to elicit information upon or to elucidate matters of fact or of policy, that it is as brief as possible, that it contains no argument or personal imputation. The Ceann Comhairle, or the Clerk under his authority, may amend any Question, after consultation with the Deputy responsible for the Question, to secure its compliance with Standing Orders."
Now the procedure actually followed and practised is that Deputies when they bring in any question, if any objection is taken to it, as a general rule come to an agreement with the Officers of the House, the Clerk or his Assistants, and if the Deputy cannot come to an agreement with them, then it is for the Deputy himself to interview the Ceann Comhairle. And if no agreement is come to, then the question cannot appear on the Order Paper, and the question is ruled out. The Deputy cannot in this fashion question a ruling given to the effect that a question was not in order. What I understand he wants to do is to raise a matter on the adjournment which was ruled out as a question on the Order Paper.
Can I raise it as a matter of privilege?
No, it is a matter of order. The question has been ruled out, and it is a matter of order. The decision of the Ceann Comhairle having been given, no question of privilege arises.
In that connection may I direct your attention to Standing Order 29, which is the one which secures to Deputies the right to ask questions, and I submit to you that it is the primary Standing Order in this matter. It is the one which governs the whole procedure. It states:—
"Questions addressed to a Minister must relate to public affairs connected with his Department, or to matters of administration for which he is officially responsible."
The question—I am not going into details——
I do not want to hear anything about the question.
Would you permit me, in fairness, to say that it relates—
No, I will not hear anything from the Deputy upon the question. I want to tell the Deputy quite plainly that the procedure generally followed is: if a Deputy cannot agree with officers of the House he should go to the Ceann Comhairle. The Deputy has not taken that very obvious remedy in this instance. I am perfectly certain, although I have no knowledge of this matter, that if he disagreed with the officers of the House on the matter, he was told, as people are always told, that his remedy was to see the Ceann Comhairle. He has not done that, and he has not given me any notice that he was going to raise the matter in any way. Therefore, I am simply taken by surprise in this matter.
For a very definite reason——
The governing Standing Order in this matter is Standing Order 30. Standing Order 29 defines——
The privileges of a Deputy——
I really cannot teach the Deputy elementary courtesy. Standing Order 29 defines questions; Standing Order 30 defines the powers of the Ceann Comhairle. There has never been a case where an agreement has not been reached as to the form of a question, but there has very often been a considerable amount of difficulty as to the form of a question. In this particular instance, if the Deputy had consulted me in the matter personally, it might have been possible to reach agreement on the particular matter in the question. He has not done that, and no question of privilege arises. The question that arises is that the Ceann Comhairle, in pursuance of the powers given in the Standing Order, ruled that the question could not appear. That matter cannot be raised further, nor can the Deputy, having had the question ruled out, avail of this particular occasion to ask the question. That would be obviously not in accordance with commonsense. What the Deputy wants to do is to question a ruling of the Chair. This is not the way to do that. There is a way, but this is not the way.
If you would inform me how I can question a ruling of the Chair—because my contention is, and I submit it——
The Deputy must not put his contention now.
I am entitled to discuss in regard to the Standing Orders whether or not you are exceeding your powers.
The Deputy is not entitled to say I am exceeding my powers. After the Chair gives a ruling, that ruling must be obeyed for the time. There is no possibility of arguing or debating it—none whatever at the moment. If a Deputy is convinced that the Ceann Comhairle has exceeded his powers, or made an improper use of them, he has a remedy, but he cannot raise it in this particular fashion. He has a remedy, but this is not the remedy.
The point about that is this, that if the House had been meeting to-morrow this question would be put down on the Order Paper, and I should have seen it. I will not be able, unfortunately, to see it to-morrow.
I will not hear the Deputy on that question. The Deputy is taking me unawares on this question. All I know about it is that the question was not allowed, under my authority, and I am not prepared to allow the Deputy to speak about it now. If the Deputy disagrees with the ruling of the Chair, his remedy is to put down a motion that, in his opinion, the Chair has exceeded its powers, or has made improper use of them. There is no other way that I know by which the ruling of the Chair can be challenged. It is unfortunate that the Deputy and myself did not succeed in coming to some agreement on the question.
I submit, all the same——
DEPUTIES
Order, Order.
I am standing up for the rights of Private Deputies in this House, not only in relation to this particular question, but to all questions. A number of other questions on the same lines have been put down by Deputies on these benches, and they have been disallowed, while some questions have been so censored as to render them valueless for the purpose of eliciting information.
I have no objection to the Deputy making that statement. The Deputy's position is that a question is not allowed, and he thinks that that is an improper use of the powers given to the Ceann Comhairle under the Standing Orders. I can find for him, if he consults me, either a method of settling that question between the Deputy and myself, or an opportunity for raising the question for the decision of the House.