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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Feb 1928

Vol. 22 No. 2

SEANAD EIREANN—CONSTITUTION AND POWERS OF, AND METHODS OF ELECTION. - MESSAGES FROM THE SEANAD.

The following Message was received from the Seanad:—
Seanad Eireann has passed the following Resolution, in which the concurrence of Dáil Eireann is desired:—
"That it is expedient that a Joint Committee consisting of five members of the Dáil and five members of the Seanad, with the Chairman of each House ex officio, be set up to consider and report on the changes, if any, necessary in the constitution and powers of, and methods of election to Seanad Eireann: and that a Message be sent to the Dáil requesting its concurrence in this Resolution."

I move:—

"Go n-aontuíonn an Dáil leis an Seanad ina Rún a cuireadh in úil don Dáil an 15adh lá d'Fheabhra. Go bhfuil sé oiriúnach Có-Choiste, ar a mbeidh cúigear ball den Dáil agus cúigear ball den tSeanad, maraon le Ceann Comhairle na Dála agus Cathaoirleach an tSeanaid mar bhaill ex-officio, do bhunú chun breithniú do dhéanamh agus tuairisc do thabhairt ar na hatharuithe is gá a dhéanamh, más gá aon cheann, ar chó-dhéanamh agus ar chomhachta Sheanad Eireann agus ar na modhanna toghacháin chun Seanad Eireann.

"That the Dáil concurs with the Seanad in their Resolution communicated to the Dáil on 15th day of February: That it is expedient that a Joint Committee consisting of five members of the Dáil and five members of the Seanad, with the Chairman of each House ex-officio, be set up to consider and report on the changes, if any, necessary in the constitution and powers of, and methods of election to Seanad Eireann."

I move the motion simply because the Seanad passed the Message upon the Order Paper. The motion was in the particular form in which it comes to us now. The Committee of Selection may find a difficulty in selecting five members for this purpose. They may not find five a suitable number. It is quite possible they will. Should they not find five a suitable number they would have to get the figure changed by the House.

The Government's intention was to introduce legislation which it has prepared dealing with certain proposals with regard to the Seanad elections. In view, however, of the resolution passed by the Seanad the Government is prepared to support the setting up of this Committee. The discussion in the Seanad showed that those who moved the resolution desired that the deliberations of this Committee should not be prejudiced by any statement of Government policy with regard to the Seanad. In that respect the Government is prepared to meet the Seanad. There is, however, a point of urgency in the matter. The Government is responsible for seeing that the administrative machinery will not be given work to do that it is not able to do in time. It is responsible for the finance of the country and it is responsible for ordering the business of the House, and as an election is due to take place this year for the Seanad the element of time enters into it. The Government is of opinion that while it is not desirous in any way of prejudicing the deliberations of the Committee, it is very desirable, to their minds on the other hand, that long-drawn-out deliberations by a Committee should not prejudice the other considerations involved in the matter.

The date, 31st of March, was suggested in the Seanad as a date by which the Committee might at least be able to report on the method of election. A Committee discussing the powers of the Seanad itself, its constitution and method of election might very well sit for a number of months, but in view of the urgency of the question of the election it was thought that the Committee should direct its particular attention to that in the very beginning. It was suggested in the Seanad that they should report on that by the 31st of March. That was not accepted by the Seanad.

I personally feel that such a Committee should be able to report by the 17th April, say by the time that the Dáil would re-assemble after the Easter recess. I expect it would re-assemble about the 17th April. I feel that the Committee should be able to report by that time, at least on the question of election. I do say that there is a question of urgency with regard to the method of election and the importance of reporting at the earliest possible moment on that particular point.

We are against the setting up of this particular Committee. We think that the proper thing to do is to end the Senate and not to attempt to mend it. It is costly, and we do not see any useful function that it really serves.

I would like to support the attitude adopted by the leader of this Party, and to urge the House to vote against the setting up of this Committee, the purpose of which is obviously to try to put some life into a moribund body. I think that the public feeling throughout the country is very strongly in favour of the abolition of the Senate, not to patch it up in a way so as to give it even a semblance of reality. It is a body created, as well as know, not to improve the machinery of administration in this country, but to give political power to a certain class that could not get that power if they had to go before the people at a free election and get the people to vote them into office. The Senate was set up to put a certain section of the community into a position where they could influence the course of legislation—a section of the community that was always hostile to the interests of Irish nationalism, and that was always hostile to the Irish nation. And we think that this bulwark of imperialism should be abolished by the people's representatives on the first available opportunity that they get.

The Constitution says that the Senate is to be constituted with special reference to the necessity for arranging for the representation of important interests and institutions in the country. Some argument might be put forward for the establishment of a Second House that would deal exclusively with economic matters, but the House should be composed of representatives of the people who count in this country—the farmers, the manufacturers and the working classes—and not of traders and importers and the like. It should be representative of the Nationalist element and not the Imperialist element. The stock argument in favour of a Second House is that it acts as a brake on hasty legislation, and that it acts as a cooling chamber. Has the Senate in this country acted as a brake on hasty legislation or as a cooling chamber? Have they not shown themselves more liable to take a panicky course even than this House? They have permitted themselves to be stampeded any time the Executive Council wanted to stampede them. They are like a tame dog, prepared to do anything the Executive Council orders them to do, and this is the farce which it is proposed now to rejuvenate at a cost to the State of over £30,000 a year. I should like to hear whatever arguments can be advanced in favour of continuing it. None have been submitted here. We are told that the Government has legislation ready to introduce to amend the system of election. We should like to have some indication as to what the change to be effected in the system of election is to be—what the Government has in mind in the matter. We have at present a nondemocratic system of nomination coupled with a semi-democratic system of election. Is it proposed to abolish the popular vote in order to ensure that no Nationalist, no matter how hard he may try, can possibly get a seat in that Assembly? We have seen the suggestions in the papers that such a course is to be adopted—that the Government is going to do everything possible to shirk anything in the nature of a public vote for that Assembly. We are told that the Committee might sit for a number of months considering the matter. It could sit for ever without effecting any useful results, unless it brought in the one report that the people of Ireland would like to see it bring in, namely, one in favour of the total abolition of the institution.

I do not think that it can do very much harm to set up this committee. As far as I could follow Deputy Lemass, his main objection is to the constitution of the Senate, and this committee will consider any changes that may be necessary, not only in the method of election, but in its constitution and powers. We have been promised legislation by the Government. I do not know whether it was indicated that this legislation would deal exclusively with the method of election, or whether it would deal with the constitution and powers of the Senate, but it would be well if this House, through a committee of this kind, had an opportunity of examining the question and of reporting to the House. The report might be that the Senate was a superfluous body and was not necessary in our Constitution. It is quite possible that that might be its report. I certainly do not think any harm will be done by setting up this committee, and it would be advisable that we should have a report from a joint committee of this kind as to any changes that may be necessary in the Constitution. It does not follow that this House is going to accept the report of any such committee.

I would have preferred in connection with the two speeches that we heard a moment ago if we had had some comparison between the Senate here and the Senate of some other country; if we had had the subject dealt with in a sensible, businesslike way, and a comparison made to see what was the constitutional position of the Senate in any other country, what were the results of a Second Chamber in other countries, and what the idea of the two Deputies who have spoken was of what a Senate should be.

Should not be.

I did not interrupt either of the Deputies. I was hoping that I would have learned something, but I have learned nothing, and, I find, have only wasted my time. The position with regard to a Second Chamber is that it has been found from experience in other countries to have been rather useful. To talk as if nationality only exuded from the Benches opposite, to try to mislead the public outside that they are the only real fountains of nationality— every sensible person in the country knows that that is not so. I know two members of the Senate who did more national and useful work during the whole struggle, who would probably be tabled as Imperialists——

A DEPUTY

Than you did.

—than all the members on that side of the House did for Sinn Fein, and I can give Deputy Lemass or anybody else proof of it. The label which they try to affix to certain people can only be a true label when it is proved to be so, and neither of the Deputies has done that. The Deputies have not examined the position in other countries to see whether or not countries governed by a single Chamber are better governed; whether their legislation is more perfect. It happens that we have that information. This motion deals with a good deal of what Deputy Lemass said, but it does not deal with what Deputy de Valera said, because he simply wants to do away with the Senate. I suppose he has never bothered his head to examine what is its purpose—what is the purpose of any Second Chamber in any country. It is part of the Constitution. The Constitution was adopted here after a very considerable amount of time had been spent in its consideration.

In London.

Here in this House, when the Deputy was probably declaring to somebody outside that he would never enter it.

The Constitution was considered in London.

It was considered in this House and passed by this House and made law by this House when, as I say, the Deputy was probably explaining to somebody outside that he would never come into it. Having had it for five years, this is the time to examine it. To say that it is costing £30,000 per annum is no reason why it should be done away with. Money that we would be all glad to save is very well spent upon certain things. If we can better the institution by reason of this motion, let us have it. I did not hear either of the Deputies saying that their Party was not going to appoint any members to attend this Committee. We are in the initial stages with regard to this very important system of government for the country. Except from protagonists on the other side, who seek to show great savings, there has been no outcry against the Senate—none whatever. There were on the original Senate three or four members of a Conference which sat here in Dublin as far back as 1902 and did very useful work that has been praised by many people, and that, in my view, was mainly responsible for the great national feeling and movement which, according to some people, only started in 1916, but which really started a very long time before that.

Is a place in the Senate to be the method of compensation for them?

I cannot hear the Deputy.

It does not matter what the Deputy said. It must be plain that on this motion to appoint a Committee to discuss certain matters in connection with the Senate we cannot debate the whole question of whether there ought or ought not to be in an ideal Constitution, or in the Constitution of this country, a Second Chamber, although it is quite relevant and proper for a Deputy to say that he is against this motion because he thinks there ought not to be any Senate. That is quite relevant and proper, but we cannot roam over the general question as to whether there ought or ought not to be a Senate. That must arise upon some proceedings to amend existing legislation as regards procedure for a Senate.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 83; Níl, 49.

  • William P. Aird.
  • Ernest Henry Alton.
  • Richard Anthony.
  • James Walter Beckett.
  • George Cecil Bennett.
  • Ernest Blythe.
  • Séamus A. Bourke.
  • Michael Brennan.
  • Henry Broderick.
  • Seán Brodrick.
  • John Joseph Byrne.
  • Edmund Carey.
  • Archie J. Cassidy.
  • Patrick Clancy.
  • James Coburn.
  • John James Cole.
  • Mrs. Margt. Collins-O'Driscoll.
  • Hugh Colohan.
  • Martin Conlan.
  • Michael P. Connolly.
  • Bryan Ricco Cooper.
  • Richard Corish.
  • William T. Cosgrave.
  • Sir James Craig.
  • James Crowley.
  • John Daly.
  • William Davin.
  • Michael Davis.
  • Peter De Loughrey.
  • James N. Dolan.
  • Edward Doyle.
  • Peadar Seán Doyle.
  • James Dwyer.
  • Osmond Thos. Grattan Esmonde.
  • James Everett.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • James Fitzgerald-Kenney.
  • John Good.
  • Denis J. Gorey.
  • Alexander Haslett.
  • John J. Hassett.
  • Michael R. Heffernan.
  • John Henigan.
  • Mark Henry.
  • Patrick Hogan (Clare).
  • Patrick Hogan (Galway).
  • Richard Holohan.
  • Michael Jordan.
  • Patrick Michael Kelly.
  • Myles Keogh.
  • Hugh Alexander Law.
  • Patrick Leonard.
  • Finian Lynch.
  • Arthur Patrick Mathews.
  • Martin McDonogh.
  • Michael Og McFadden.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Joseph W. Mongan.
  • Richard Mulcahy.
  • James E. Murphy.
  • Timothy Joseph Murphy.
  • James Sproule Myles.
  • Martin Michael Nally.
  • John Thomas Nolan.
  • Richard O'Connell.
  • Thomas J. O'Connell.
  • Bartholomew O'Connor.
  • Timothy Joseph O'Donovan.
  • John F. O'Hanlon.
  • Daniel O'Leary.
  • Dermot Gun O'Mahony.
  • John J. O'Reilly.
  • Gearoid O'Sullivan.
  • John Marcus O'Sullivan.
  • Patrick Reynolds.
  • Martin Roddy.
  • Patrick W. Shaw.
  • Timothy Sheehy (West Cork).
  • William Edward Thrift.
  • Michael Tierney.
  • Daniel Vaughan.
  • Vincent Joseph White.
  • George Wolfe.

Níl

  • Denis Allen
  • Neal Blaney.
  • Gerald Boland.
  • Patrick Boland.
  • Daniel Bourke.
  • Robert Briscoe.
  • Daniel Buckley.
  • Frank Carney.
  • Frank Carty.
  • Michael Clery.
  • James Colbert.
  • Eamon Cooney.
  • Dan Corkery.
  • Martin John Corry.
  • Tadgh Crowley.
  • Thomas Derrig.
  • Eamon De Valera.
  • Frank Fahy.
  • Andrew Fogarty.
  • Patrick J. Gorry.
  • John Goulding.
  • Seán Hayes.
  • Samuel Holt.
  • Patrick Houlihan.
  • Stephen Jordan.
  • Michael Joseph Kennedy.
  • William R. Kent.
  • Frank Kerlin.
  • James Joseph Killane
  • Mark Killelea.
  • Michael Kilroy.
  • Seán F. Lemass.
  • Patrick John Little.
  • Thomas McEllistrim.
  • Séamus Moore.
  • Thomas Mullins.
  • Patrick Joseph O'Dowd.
  • Seán T. O'Kelly.
  • William O'Leary.
  • Matthew O'Reilly.
  • Thomas O'Reilly.
  • Thomas P. Powell.
  • Patrick J. Ruttledge.
  • James Ryan.
  • Martin Sexton.
  • Timothy Sheehy (Tipperary).
  • Patrick Smith.
  • Richard Walsh.
  • Francis C. Ward.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies P.S. Doyle, B. O'Connor. Níl, G. Boland, P.J. Little.
Motion declared carried.
Ordered: That a Message be sent to the Seanad accordingly.
Barr
Roinn