I gave notice that I wished to raise on the adjournment the question of the position of the area in Co. Wexford where foot and mouth disease exists. It is now 8 o'clock, and I have not had an opportunity of consulting with my colleagues from the constituency. I imagine that they will also wish to speak on the matter, and I would like, if possible, to give them sufficient time. Perhaps if it is convenient the adjournment might be moved now in order to give more than half an hour for a discussion on the matter which, I think, is of general importance.
ADJOURNMENT DEBATE. - FOOT AND MOUTH DISEASE OUTBREAK.
The general practice that has obtained is that when the adjournment is moved, unless there is some agreement about it, earlier than the hour fixed ordinarily for the adjournment, the Deputy who has given notice, and any other Deputies who wish to speak, get half an hour between them, and the Minister then replies. But I take it that on this particular topic, which is of importance, the discussion may go on until 9 o'clock, giving the Minister adequate time to reply before 9 o'clock.
Deputies from other constituencies have only got to imagine the situation which would arise in those constituencies if such a calamity took place there as has taken place in County Wexford within the last two months, in order to understand the anxiety that my colleagues from the County Wexford feel on the present position in the south of that county as a result of the imposition of the restrictions consequent upon that outbreak. I have raised this matter to-night because of the fact that the Minister has not yet made any statement since the fresh outbreak which occurred last week. The people in the district, who are suffering very considerable loss, and who are faced with the prospect of still further loss during the next month, or possibly two months, are not aware that the Government is showing any particular sympathy with them in the plight in which they find themselves to-day.
The Minister is, no doubt, doing what he thinks is best and as much as he can, but certainly the people in the district are not aware of what he is doing. It is more to give him an opportunity of stating exactly the position that I raise this matter to-night. He stated yesterday in his speech on the Bill which has been under discussion to-day that the Gaeltacht was entitled to special consideration, and it was generally agreed on all sides that that is the case. I wonder if the Minister is not prepared to admit that the district which is now suffering the losses imposed upon it in the interests of the whole community is not also entitled to special consideration from his Department and from the Government. During the last couple of days some alleviation has been given by a relaxation of the regulations which permit the slaughter of cattle in the affected area. That alleviation, however, does not in any way assist the owners of store cattle, and it so happens that that area of the County Wexford is more interested in store cattle than other parts of the county or, probably, most parts of the country.
I wonder if the Minister would say if it is his opinion that nothing possible can be done for the owners of store cattle in that area and that they must look forward to a definite dead loss without any prospect of alleviation. The Minister is very well aware that the farmers and the people in the area which we are discussing are very hardworking, thrifty and conscientious. They certainly are not asking anything in the nature of charity from the Government, but it is felt that the Minister and his Department in this crisis should take the people of the district into their confidence and help them to formulate suggestions with a view to alleviating the situation. I think that is a very small request, and one which the Minister should accede to. He could help them particularly by telling them the schemes or suggestions that are feasible and the ones that are not feasible in the present circumstances, and what the Government would be prepared to do in order to help them out of their difficulty.
There has been a lot of discussion as to what part the Agricultural Credit Corporation should play in any such alleviation. I fully admit that the Corporation was not designed in order to meet a crisis of this kind. It was established as a banking institution on a strictly business basis, and there was no suggestion that it was intended that it should be used for the purpose of alleviating exceptional or extraordinary circumstances such as exist in South County Wexford to-day. At the same time, I notice that there is nothing in the Act establishing that Corporation which would prevent the machinery of it being used in order to assist these farmers in the exceptional circumstances in which they find themselves to-day. There is nothing in the Act to prevent the Corporation giving special consideration to an area which has been specially hit through no fault of the farmers in that district. It could be given particularly in the way of providing credits for the acquisition of food stuffs, and also in the sense that the Credit Corporation should expedite its activities in that area.
There is one rather interesting development which I am sure members of the Fianna Fáil Party will appreciate as a result of this outbreak. It is that the Farmers' Party have been converted not only to Protection, but to the theory of Deputy de Valera with regard to the prohibition of imports. That is a result which, I am sure, gives satisfaction to the members of the Fianna Fáil Party. But, seriously, I think there is room for a more helpful and more sympathetic attitude from the point of view of the Government and of the Department of Agriculture in dealing with this matter. I hope the Minister will adopt the suggestion made to him by Deputy Corish that some high official of his Department or that he himself would go to the area in order to work out what is feasible in the way of schemes for alleviating the situation. The prospects, as far as the farmers in the area are concerned, indicate a very lean time between now and the harvest, and probably, no matter what happens, for a year or two more. I hope the Minister will give his earnest consideration to the matter.
I would like to add a few words to what has been said by Deputy Esmonde in connection with this outbreak of foot and mouth disease in my constituency. As Deputy Esmonde has pointed out, a great deal more than what has been done by the Minister requires to be done. Certainly one must appreciate the action taken by the Minister and officials of his Department in connection with the outbreak and the measures they have adopted in order to prevent its spread. I would like to say that, so far as the Civic Guards and the officials of the Department of Agriculture are concerned, they have certainly acted in an admirable manner. But as Deputy Esmonde has pointed out, the position of the farmers in this area during the past eight weeks has been an unenviable one. They are faced, in many cases, with privation and with the fact that they do not know what is going to happen next, as well as with the fact that the disease might spread still further. They are in a dilemma, and I believe it is absolutely necessary for the Minister himself or at least a very high official of his Department to go to Wexford at once with a view to conferring with the people and of seeing what are their actual needs.
One hears on all sides of the great hardship that prevails and of the uncertainty of the position. The uncertainty that prevails in that particular area is doing more harm than the actual disease itself. One wonders if anything can be done to lessen the restrictions in view of the fact that the particular part of the district where the last outbreak occurred might be styled a peninsula. It is practically isolated from the rest of the County Wexford by reason of the fact that it is almost entirely surrounded by water. Perhaps something could be done to lessen the area of the restrictions, or the period that the restrictions are to be left on. Deputy Esmonde spoke of the Agricultural Credit Corporation. In this connection a great many inquiries are being made by the farmers affected by the restrictions as to what they are entitled to. I would earnestly ask that the Minister himself, if possible, would go to Wexford within the next few days and confer with representative bodies and farmers with a view to finding out what can be done in order to remedy the unfortunate situation with which they are confronted.
Speaking of the urban population, of course they are not directly affected, but the town of Wexford especially has been very badly hit. There has been no fair held in Wexford town since the 3rd February and there is no prospect that one will be held in April. That is a serious matter for a town like Wexford. Enniscorthy and Gorey have been lucky to the extent that they had one fair when the restrictions were, to some extent taken off. Wexford town has been badly hit. I suggest when the Minister comes down, as I hope he will, that he should confer with representative people, as apart from the farmers, who have the interests of the farmers and the general community at heart. I think it is not too much to ask that the Minister, or one of his high officials, should go down and find out the actual position. As I have said, we are complaining of what has been done, but in view of the hardships that exist and the uncertainty that prevails I would appeal with Deputy Esmonde that something would be done immediately to alleviate the distress which there undoubtedly is in that particular area.
I would like to join with Deputy Esmonde and Deputy Corish in the appeal that something should be done to alleviate the sufferings of these people in Wexford. There are some small points that I think could be smoothed over in some way. Perhaps if the Minister will act on the suggestion that he should go down himself or send some responsible member of his Department to investigate matters on the spot. I have been told, for instance, by people who live in the villages and in the town of Wexford, and who keep one or two cows, that they are in a desperate way as regards the shortage of hay and straw. In that area the supply of hay is running short, and hay and straw cannot be imported. Something should be done for these people. It would help if they could send their cows to a farmer who would be prepared to take them for the time being. As occurs sometimes, there are farmers with their buildings on one side of the road and the farms on the other side. They are compelled to keep their cattle housed, because they cannot cross the road with them if they wanted to bring them across at night. Then there are the people, with whom the Minister would have sympathy, who went in a good deal for rearing premium cattle and spent a good deal of money—it might be called capital expenditure—in getting good premium stock, and who expected to reap the benefit of their capital outlay by selling their young bulls at the show in Dublin. They failed in that and are now badly off. I think it would be possible for the Department to give these people something in advance on the prices that will be got for these bulls when they are sold, as they undoubtedly will be, to enable them to carry on.
As Deputy Esmonde has said, the principal industry of the farmers in that area is the rearing of store cattle. These were sold mostly in March and some in April. The farmer, as a rule, had only enough of feeding stuff to carry him into March. Now he finds the food running short and he cannot dispose of his cattle. Also, of course, he is running short of money because he cannot sell the cattle, and he has to pay rates, etc. He has not the money to do that. I think if the County Council were enabled not to press for these rates, and were empowered to get an overdraft for the present, it would be a relief. The annuities will be due also, and perhaps the same thing would apply to them, and that there will be no pressure for payment, so that they would be given a chance to carry on. There may be in the Minister's mind the question of legal obligation and that he cannot relieve the people from the payment of their rates or annuities. I think some way should be found out of the difficulties that exist. There is the difficulty of getting rid of the stock. The people cannot import feeding stuffs, while hay and straw are running short, and in any case they have not the money to pay for feeding stuffs. The same would apply to farmers who want to buy seeds and manures. The question arises: how are they going to get credit? I understand from the Chairman of the Agricultural Credit Society that his organisation would be prepared to come as quickly as possible to the assistance of those people. But, as we know, that corporation would want certain securities, and, though they will do their best to meet the situation, they cannot be able to meet it in all cases. It may be necessary to deal with it as an emergency situation and in a special manner. I therefore appeal to the Minister, with Deputy Esmonde and Deputy Corish, to come down himself or send down one of his officials. I think I can promise him he would have the support and co-operation of all parties represented here in anything he might do towards relieving the desperate conditions of the people.
I think the appeal made by the Deputies who have just spoken to the Minister to visit the area may be said to be already met, as I understand the Minister has promised to go there. One point I think he has missed in connection with this matter, and that is the supply of fodder, especially hay. Foodstuffs can be rather easily procured if there is money, but hay at this time of the year is a very scarce commodity. If it is left to the individual farmer in Wexford to get supplies now when he is run out, he will find it a very difficult proposition. In this connection I suggest to the Ministry that perhaps the most beneficial way they could help would be to try to organise supplies for Wexford from other parts of the country. That could be done through the county instructors. From now on to the first week in May hay will be very scarce. Many farmers have cattle they are not able to keep for want of hay. This year hay is very scarce, and most of it is not good. I think very material help could be given in this way. On the question of feeding stuffs, the supply of roots would be a difficulty. Beet is not available, and pulp is out of the question. If it is possible an effort should be made to organise the supply of roots. There is also the question of killing facilities. I do not know, but I suppose they have sufficient killing facilities in the area. A body of farmers appointed by the Farmers' Congress met the Minister to-day with regard to shutting out accepted sources of infection. There are some accepted sources of infection coming into the country, and it is well recognised that chilled meat is one of these sources. Any sacrifice which is necessary to stamp out this national calamity I think the whole State should be prepared to make. It is not a matter for Wexford. It is Wexford to-day, but it may be any other part to-morrow. It is a national question, and any sacrifice that is necessary to be made, I am sure the State will be ready to make it. I do not want to suggest for a moment that the outbreak was not a natural one, but there is the possibility that other places interested, with unlimited money resources, could have been the means of deliberately planting the infection. That was hinted at in connection with previous outbreaks, when we heard about suspicious characters being seen going around. I do not know whether suspicious characters have been seen around Wexford. It is impossible to put in-fed cattle out on grass. They will have to be killed direct from the stalls or there will be tremendous loss. That is the reason I want to stress the desirability of organising a supply of fodder, especially hay.
I wish to support the appeal made to the Minister to come to the rescue of the people down in Wexford who are affected by this outbreak. As a farmer coming from the infected area I should like to congratulate the Minister on the way he has handled the outbreak from the very start. He has not alone brought credit on himself, but he has set a headline to the people of other countries who have not been able to cope with the disease in the efficient manner that he has. I should also like to say a word in praise of the Civic Guard, who helped in every way possible to have the regulations complied with. The farmers also deserve the congratulations of the people for the manner in which they have risen to the occasion.
And the veterinary surgeons.
Mr. JORDAN
I should be glad if the Minister could see his way to come down to Wexford to consult with the people there. If he cannot come himself, he should send one of his officials, and Deputies of every party from Wexford would be only too glad to meet him or one of his officials and give any help they can in order to be of some assistance to the people. Certain complaints have been made to me about the restricted area. According to the regulations the restrictions apply to the police area. As a result of that, a man living seventeen or eighteen miles away from the affected area may be held up, whilst other people, living within fifteen miles of the area, are not restricted. That is due to the irregularity of the police area. I consulted with the Minister about that and he informed me that the limit would be reduced to ten miles, and that it would not require to be dealt with, but it did create great hardship for the time being. There was another unfortunate thing that I am sorry to have to refer to, and that is that some local firms have taken advantage of the crisis in connection with the purchase of stock from farmers. I do not want to mention names, but it is a matter that deserves ventilation. It is not to the credit of these people that they should take advantage of the unfortunate people. I do not suppose any Deputies can form any idea of the plight of the people in the affected area except those who make their living from farming. It is really pitiable to enter a man's place and see forty or fifty cattle without anything to eat. So long as the restrictions are on these cattle cannot be moved. In the case of fat stock, I was glad to hear the Minister say that he was making provision to have the stock sent direct to the factory to be slaughtered. That would be a great relief. But in the case of stores, feeding has run out with most people, and the only feeding stuff they can provide is what they can buy in the town. Unfortunately, they have no money to purchase it, and I appeal to the Minister to speed up the machinery of the Agricultural Credit Corporation in order to come to the aid of the people and lend them some money to tide over the present crisis. That is really the important thing. So far as the rates are concerned, I think we can nearly guarantee that the county council will not press the people for them. I want to appeal, however, in case there may be any prosecution pending by the Land Commission for unpaid annuities, that they should be stayed until the crisis passes. It would not be fair to press the people, who find it very difficult to struggle on at present.
I want to associate myself with the views expressed in connection with this calamity. This is not only a matter for the Co. Wexford but for the farmers of Ireland. The sympathy of the farmers of Ireland goes out to those in Co. Wexford. We realise that the efforts which have been made to wipe out this disease are not only in the interests of the farmers there, but of all the farmers in the Free State, and therefore we are prepared to recommend and accept responsibility for the recommendation of any measure which may be necessary to relieve farmers in that area, and to bear the responsibility, financially or otherwise, which may accrue, because of any efforts which may be taken in that direction. I also want to join in the appreciation expressed here of the work of the Department officials. We feel that the efforts made by the Department and its officials could not be excelled, and it is only right that we should give expression to that feeling and say that we believe the suppression of the disease is due to the prompt action taken by the Department.
Deputy Gorey touched the kernel of the situation, and that is the provision of feeding stuffs for the farmers who have been obliged to retain stock which otherwise would have been disposed of by now. It seems to me that the provision of feeding stuffs alone is not the solution of the problem, unless at the same time we provide means whereby the farmers can purchase the feeding stuffs. I do not want to try to elaborate a plan, or put a plan before the Minister as to what should be done, but on examination of all sides of the case, it seems to me that the suggestion put forward by Deputy Esmonde is the right one, that the Agricultural Credit Corporation might be used to relieve, to some extent, the difficulties existing, and that special efforts might be made to get a representative of that Corporation into the area for the purpose of placing money at the disposal of the farmers who need it. In my opinion it would be better that the farmers who find it difficult or impossible to pay rates and land annuities should be provided, by means of Government credit of that class, rather than that a measure like a moratorium should be adopted. I think it would be in the financial interest of the State that the provision should be of that kind rather than not having any legal obligation to pay their way. I really think the best suggestion is the one already put forward, that some responsible representative should be sent down for the purpose alone of examining into the economic situation and the possibility of relieving the people who need it. Doubtless that examination has taken place in a cursory fashion, but the officials there are primarily for the purpose of suppressing the disease and not for the purpose of inquiring into the economic situation which has arisen out of the disease.
I would like to add a few words to what has been already said. There is one view-point that I would stress and that is the condition of people who cannot drive their cattle across the road. They may live on one side of the road and they may have land on the other side. As has been pointed out this is an area in which there is a lot of store cattle. In the usual course of events they would be sold in March. There are people who have store cattle and who cannot get hay for them. They have to carry water to them every day. In the towns it is much worse. In Gorey, people cannot let the cattle out and some of these people have no yards at all. Imagine the state of the people in the town of Wexford who have large dairies and cannot let the cows out.
There is another matter and that is the matter of credit. Deputy Gorey said this is a matter for the State. The State up to this has not borne any of the brunt of what the people of Wexford have borne. I think it is up to the State to come to the relief of the people in the affected areas by some means of credit or otherwise. I doubt very much if the Credit Corporation is capable of dealing with the matter effectively. It is no doubt an emergency case and emergency measures are needed to deal with it.
I would like to ask a question or two. Has the Minister made any inquiries as to the cause of the outbreak and if so what is the result? What was the cause of the original outbreak five or six weeks ago? My information is that friends of some people in the area, in the habit of passing over from infected areas in England were not disinfected at the Port. I would like to know if that is the case. Generally those engaged in the cattle trade are subjected to a great system of disinfection; their clothes are disinfected, but those who are not engaged in the cattle trade are allowed to pass without any disinfection process. As far as I understand it that has been going on all through the winter. It would be well to know if that is so. I saw in the papers last Saturday a report that the inspectors visited the infected farm about a week ago. I expect the inspectors should be disinfected on leaving the infected areas. Was there any connection between the case of the original outbreak and the recent one? It may be possible that inspectors themselves did not take sufficient precautions. It would be well if the Minister would give some indication upon the matter.
Before the Minister replies I would make a suggestion with regard to the supply of feeding stuffs in the infected area. I think the farmers as a whole do appreciate the necessary restrictions placed round the area and that it was to the benefit of the whole country that that was done and done efficiently. Following up Deputy Gorey's point as regards the shortage of feeding-stuffs I think it would not be too much to ask the Railway Company who in normal times draws a large amount of its income from freightage on cattle to come to the help of the farmers of Wexford by reducing freights from the areas where there are abundant supplies of roots and hay. Perhaps there are not sufficient hay and roots in carting districts in the area. Districts thirty or forty miles away might be able to organise supplies. I make that suggestion and possibly it could be made use of. I am sure Railway Officials would meet the Department if the suggestion was put up to them.
There is, of course, no doubt about it that it was a misfortune that the outbreak should have occurred at all, and it was a real misfortune that it should have been followed by a second outbreak. In a situation like this the important thing, from the point of view of everyone in the country, is not to make it worse than it really is. I say, frankly, nobody has made it worse than it really is. Certainly the farmers of Wexford have acted very well. They bore the direct brunt of the restrictions; they have on the whole admirably complied with the restrictions and regulations made by the Department of Agriculture. It is also a fact that the public generally, the farmers in the rest of the country generally, and people with interest in it of one kind or another, acted very well in the whole matter. But remember it is now five or six weeks since the first outbreak in Wexford. I had hoped that it would be the only outbreak, but at the end of the five weeks period we had a second outbreak. You can never be certain of when foot and mouth disease is going to end, but I confidently anticipate that we will be able to control this outbreak, and from that point of view it is rather reassuring that the second outbreak should have taken place within a few miles of the first and within the restricted area. That means that in the last five or six weeks there was no free movement of cattle in the area, and consequently there is very little likelihood that the infection, wherever it is within the area, has been carried outside it. It is not possible at this stage, without being rather rash, to prophesy where it is just going to end. We will be very lucky if this is the last outbreak, as we confidently hope it is; we will be much luckier than they have been in England. From that point of view we have to remember what the English farmers have gone through. For the last five or six years they have had constant outbreaks. It is very much harder to control the disease there than here. Cattle are being imported every year into England. There is constant movement of cattle across the country, and it is much harder, in a populous country like England, where there is constant movement of cattle, to control foot and mouth disease than here. They have had it for five or six years, and they have lost millions and millions of pounds in direct losses, while their indirect losses must have been something enormous.
They are standing up to it in great style. And we ought to remember that here in this country if we are to continue the policy of stamping out foot and mouth disease and keeping a clean bill of health—and I think there can be no question about it that there can be no other policy—we must have a very serious dislocation of trade whenever an outbreak does occur. We can have only one consolation, that it will be temporary. We must remember that there must be a point of view everywhere in the State in regard to this question. When these outbreaks occur they will occur here to-day and there to-morrow. But where they occur and when they occur the people concerned are inevitably going to suffer hardships which, no matter what the State does, they cannot be fully compensated for. That does appear to have been the point of view of the Wexford farmers concerned, and I appeal to the Wexford farmers and Deputies generally to take things coolly and quietly in this matter and not say or do anything that would make the situation anything more difficult than it is. There are certain things that can be done when an outbreak of foot and mouth disease occurs. It is absolutely essential to delimit the area. And remember when we come to consider what area we will delimit for the purpose of the restrictions, we have to take into account not only the point of view of the farmers concerned and the Irish Department, but also the point of view of the Department of Agriculture in the country to which we send our stock. That happens to be England. We must take such measures as will convince sensible men who have technical knowledge of the subject that we are dealing with it in such a way that we know our business and that we are taking steps that prudent people should take to stamp out the outbreak. If we do take those steps my experience is that we will be met half way. And we were certainly met half way for no other reason than this—that I believe the point of view in the Ministry in England was that the steps we had taken were adequate, and that consequently they could agree to make the concessions which they made, for the first time I think, in the matter of foot and mouth disease.
In connection with the point that Deputy Jordan has made about the fifteen mile limit, that was usually the limit which you drew round an area where an outbreak of foot and mouth disease had occurred. You cannot simply run a line round an area from the centre of it and keep to the circle. You cannot do that. You must have regard to the administrative units in that area. You must have regard to other circumstances, and you must include the particular areas which can be most usefully and efficiently administered. And there is no doubt that from that point of view the police areas were the most convenient, because the police have a lot to do with any regulations that are made, and they see that these are carried out— the police as well as the officers of the Department of Agriculture. There are cases where the police area runs out beyond the fifteen mile limit, where it runs out from a centre perhaps eighteen miles. The man who is living outside that fifteen mile limit and inside the eighteen mile limit thinks he is unfortunate. Yes, he is. He is unlucky. It is his chance. He has reason to regret that he was not living in the area outside this limit that was being drawn. But he has to take his chance. But we cannot, for the sake of uniformity or in order to have an exact fifteen mile radius, cut the top off a police area and try to administer that separately. We could not do that, and it would not be worth while. Because, remember, the best service we can do to the farmers of Wexford is to stamp out this disease as quickly as possible. Any restrictions which could possibly be imposed by the Department of Agriculture within this area, no matter how onerous, would be of no consequence as compared with, say, an additional month's or week's restrictions, if you like, due to a lack of efficiency in the beginning. That is my view. The best service we can do to the farmers of Wexford and to the farmers of this country is to take whatever measures are necessary to stamp out the disease in the shortest possible time. For that reason I appeal to the farmers to continue to do what they have been doing, and to report at once any suspicious cases, any cases where there is even the slightest doubt that it may be a case of foot and mouth disease.
We have to draw this line. We have to make certain restrictions within this area. There is no free movement of cattle and free trade there, and there is practically no export trade. Various problems arise, the problems of getting fodder into the restricted area and moving the stock about. We cannot allow stock to be moved freely through the roads. We cannot allow hay and straw to be moved freely and without inspection. But I think we have met that case; the removal of hay and straw within the area is possible. Hay and straw can be moved by licence, and there are five or six licensing centres where licences can be got. We have arranged with the Gárdaí to give these licences. Licences can be got freely for the removal of hay and straw.
There is another problem where hay and straw has to be brought in. The same applies to the stock. Licences can be got, and got quite freely, for the removal of stock. Of course, before such licences are given the Department's inspector inspects the place and sees whether it is necessary to move the stock. But where a good case can be made we meet the farmers. Sometimes it is necessary to remove the stock in one farm to the other side of the road for water.
You have plenty of water everywhere.
Mr. HOGAN
You never have it where you want it. Where you have stock in one field and where the farmer wants to get that stock removed across the road to his other fields, a licence can be got. I think, therefore, the position with regard to the movement of stock and the removal of fodder within the area has been met. We could not go further than that. We could not have free movement of stock and fodder where the foot and mouth disease exists, or in an area where the disease may be existing at any point— because you must assume that it may exist at any point—if we put on restrictions, therefore, there is no point in putting restrictions at all in the areas if you allow free movements of hay and straw. Consequently we met that point by allowing the movement of hay and straw and the minimum inconvenience is being caused there.
May I interrupt the Minister by asking if the movement of hay and straw into the area is allowed?
Mr. HOGAN
I think so. It occurred to me——
I ask the question because during the past seven weeks cattle have been housed so much that all the hay and straw have been used up.
Mr. HOGAN
I am almost certain that the hay and straw are allowed in.
I want to clear up one point. A great deal of the complaints I got were that people who wanted to put their cows across the road could not do so. I do not know would it be allowed now. I do not think it was allowed.
Mr. HOGAN
My view is that it would be allowed where necessary. We have power to allow it where necessary. I could imagine a case where a person made such an application and was refused, but the inspector would call later at the place and see what accommodation could be given. He would see what lands the man had on the near side of the road on which his house was, and that inspector would probably come to the conclusion that there was ample accommodation there, and plenty of grass there for another week, and in that case he would not give a licence for a week. There are cases where they refuse licences.
Has the inspector on the spot power to give the licence?
Mr. HOGAN
Oh, yes. If he has not power, the man at headquarters has power, and he sends the licence. There are five or six inspectors there. That is with regard to the movement of hay and straw within the area. Then there is the question of fat cattle. Of course, it was particularly unfortunate that this outbreak should have occurred at this time and that it should have occurred in Wexford, because Wexford is one of the districts which supplies a lot of fat cattle. It was particularly hard on them. The cattle have been in the stall and are being fattened. Some of them must be well finished now. They have been in the stall for some weeks longer perhaps than they otherwise would. We have succeeded in making arrangements under which even within the restricted area cattle may be sent to Wexford, to the dead-meat factory, to be slaughtered and exported as dead meat from there. There is no possible chance whatsoever that the British Minister for Agriculture would accept fat stock on the hoof or store stock from the area. It would be unreasonable to ask him.
Agreed.
Mr. HOGAN
That is agreed all round. Therefore, the only thing you can do is to make arrangements, if you can make arrangements, that they will take it as dead meat—on these conditions, that there is to be a post-mortem and an ante-mortem inspection, which they have agreed to carry out. That will go a long way to meet the case of the farmers who have fat cattle. They will not, I admit, get the prices which they would get if they had a free market. There would be a difficulty in dealing with hides and offals at the moment, and there will be other difficulties. The farmers will not get the price. But this concession about the fat cattle will be an easing of the present position. I think the dead-meat factory can handle from thirty to fifty fat cattle a day, practically as many as they can get, and this particular concession which has been agreed on will, to a very considerable extent, relieve the situation so far as the fat cattle are concerned. When you come to the stores, what can be done? Stores cannot be taken outside the area. They are not fit to kill, therefore they must be kept there.
I do not think the question of stores is as serious as the question of fat cattle. What can we do? I do not see that we can do much; in any event we are not so very far off the grass season, and all you want for stores is hay. You do not want meals unless you want to keep fat cattle going on. For stores all you want is hay. I daresay there is a shortage of hay at the moment, but I wonder is it as big as people say. There is the question of bringing hay and roots and fodder generally and making arrangements with the railway companies. You can get hay and roots, but you can only get them at a price. I suppose there would be hay and roots in other parts of the country and they could be brought in. Of course there is not a lot at this time of the year, but if the price was big enough they would be sent in, and it is a question for the farmer to consider whether it is worth buying hay and roots, except the minimum absolutely necessary, at the price that would be paid at this time of the year. I do not think you would do much good by going to the railway company and getting concessions in regard to freight because I imagine the amount of roots that would come in would be infinitesimal. I believe that if 95 per cent. of the farmers could get roots brought in at 1/- a ton it would not be worth their while to get them. It is the price that counts, and unless you come down to the question of subsidising the importation of hay and roots I do not think it makes very much difference about the freights.
When it comes down to a matter of brass tacks, the farmer who can just carry on without buying anything more than the minimum of roots and who can go on without borrowing money will come out of it best. I daresay some farmers will have to borrow. Most farmers, if they have stock in the stalls—if they can stall—can get a certain amount of credit for meals and household needs, and so on. If the whole thing is measured up, you may have many farmers trying to get credits who really do not want an awful lot of credits. The very worst service you could do the farmers there is to give the impression that the thing to do was to use this particular opportunity for the purpose of getting more credits than would be necessary under ordinary circumstances. The farmers there will lose money in any event; they will lose money because of this misfortune. On the other hand, whatever credits they will get they will have to pay back sometime, and the day will come when they will regret that they availed of money which came quite easily and which they have to pay back. I ask Deputies not to press that point too hard. On the other hand, if they want money the Agricultural Credit Corporation is there.
I saw something in the paper from the Secretary suggesting that the farmers there now see that it is important to consider the question of forming some guarantee society for the purpose of getting money to tide over this particular crisis. I think that is an excellent idea. Within a narrow area you are bound to have a certain number of farmers who want assistance and if they could only come together and form that society they could get money. I think it would be money very well spent because the farmers would have the giving of it and they would have to pay it back. The worst turn you could do the farmers in that district would be to give them the impression that because of this misfortune easy money was going, and it would be wrong to say or do anything that would make them forget that whatever money they would get would have to be paid back some day. If they have not to pay it back you have to come to a State subsidy, and if the State is to subsidise, not the direct but the indirect consequences of foot and mouth disease, then we must give up our policy. It would be too expensive. There are things you cannot guard against and there are times when you must take your chance. The farmers in that area must take their chance now. It possibly is a disadvantage to be there now, but perhaps they will reap the advantage at another time of being in that area. It really comes down to that. Life is hard.
The arrangement about fat cattle to be licensed for slaughter in Wexford does not apply within two miles of the outbreak—an area within two miles of the outbreak. Deputy Jordan mentioned a point about firms down there taking advantage of this situation to give a cheaper price than the market price for cattle, sheep, pigs or whatever they are buying. They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Further, we have asked firms there to quote their prices to us so that we will try to check them. I do not know if there are any firms trying to take advantage of this situation to make money at the expense of the unfortunate farmers who are suffering from the restrictions, but if there are they ought to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves and the farmers in Wexford should remember those firms when all this trouble is over. This has been referred to as a calamity. It is a calamity because you have not free export owing to an outbreak in one small area in this country; you have not free export to our principal market in England. I ask Deputies to turn that over in their minds and to remember that the real lesson to be drawn from that is that we cannot afford to ignore that market until we have got a better.
Do not start controversies.
Mr. HOGAN
That would inevitably follow in anyone's mind if people would only be honest with themselves. Further, we cannot afford to penalise the farmer in that district until we have got that better market.
The Minister did not answer the appeal that Deputies Esmonde, Ryan and other Deputies made for some high official of the Minister's Department or himself to go to Wexford and say what he has said now to the farmers.
Mr. HOGAN
The reason I sat down was that it was 9 o'clock.
I do not think we will be put out. It is not too much to ask the Minister.
Mr. HOGAN
The arrangements in connection with the foot and mouth disease outbreak are that the Secretary of the Department is, in the first place, responsible, but activities in the district are under the direct responsibility of a director of agriculture in the Department, and under him is the veterinary branch. An agricultural director has been in Wexford, the chief veterinary officer has been in Wexford, and two or three senior officers have been constantly there. On the other hand, I can undertake if this thing goes on, if it continues, and if there is no sign of alleviation, to go there. I would consider it my duty to do so, if I could gain anything, and I think I could, by going to Wexford and seeing the situation there, and I intend to do so at the first opportunity. I have tried to explain as well as I could what the State can do and cannot do, and in answer to the people who suggested that it should be a matter for the senior officers of the Department, and the Minister concerned, I say that the senior officers have been there and will go there, and I intend to go to Wexford at the first opportunity to investigate the situation on the spot.
The Dáil adjourned at 9.5 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 30th March.