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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Apr 1928

Vol. 23 No. 2

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 57—RAILWAYS.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £25,636 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun íocaíochtanna fé Acht na mBóthar Iarainn, 1924, fén Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act, 1883, etc.; agus chun crícheanna eile a bhaineann le hIompar in Eirinn.

That a sum not exceeding £25,636 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for payments under the Railways Act, 1924, the Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act, 1883, etc.; and for other purposes connected with Irish Transport.

Most of the details of the Vote are statutory, arising out of the Railways Act, and I do not intend to go into very much detail with regard to them. Sub-head A —" Annual Payment to Great Southern Railways Company under the Railway Act, 1924, Section 63 (1) "— is a liability which arises under that section, and in connection with that payment I refer Deputies to the Appropriations-in-Aid at the end, which show that the State recovers £30,000 out of this £48,000, and that the net demand is somewhere in the region of £18,000. The second item is "Repayment to County Councils," which arises under the two old Acts mentioned. Previously there had been quite a number of payments under these Acts which have been substituted by Section 63 (1) of the Railways Act, 1924. The only payment now is in the case of the Dublin and Blessington Tramway, and the contribution there is, as stated in the last column, limited to an amount not exceeding two per cent. on the guaranteed capital. Item C is not statutory. It is the best estimate that can be made at this stage of losses that will arise in working the three colliery railways mentioned— Castlecomer, Wolfhill and the Arigna extension. It was stated in the debates on the Railway Act, and there is provision for it in the Act, that these colliery railways most likely would be absorbed by the Great Southern Railways Company. That absorption has not yet taken place. A case is being prepared with regard to these railways. But on the basis that the railways will not be absorbed this year, and that losses in working will occur, the money has to be voted.

The fourth item is the repayment year by year, in the form of annuities, of advances that were previously made for the construction of certain railways and for certain piers and harbours. It will be noticed that this is terminating year by year, and that in about three years more the sum will have been reduced by £16,000. With regard to E, this is an item which has appeared year by year on the Estimates, and certain small payments have in the different years been made, but never up to the full amount of the money voted. The item occurs by reason of the fact that when the land over which the colliery railways were to run was acquired, title could not be proved by certain people who claimed to be the owners, and it is only by degrees that they are proving their title. The full amount required to compensate those outstanding is estimated at this £2,000.

Although I have, I think, on previous occasions said that it was expected that this item would disappear, I cannot yet say that it will, in other words that the people claiming to be owners will, in the course of the year, prove their title to the lands and receive the payment due to them. The money, however, must be voted again now in the event of their being able to prove title in the financial year. There are two steamer services mentioned in the next item. That item looks as if it were an increase. That is not in fact so, because the second item, the subsidy to the Galway-Arran steamer service, previously was borne on the Estimate of the Minister for Fisheries and was for the same amount last year as is here set out. It will be noticed that there is a reduction of £500 with regard to the money voted to make good the deficit on the working of the Sligo-Belmullet steamer service. In three years careful attention to the running of this service has brought the cost of it down. In 1925 the loss was over £1,100. That was brought down the year after to £668, and in 1927 the actual loss was £417. We are providing a possible £500, but the payment will be made on the basis of the actual loss, and we supervise as far as we can the carrying on of that service. It is hoped that the loss of even £417 of last year will not be repeated and that the service will be brought much nearer to paying its own way. For the second service—the Galway-Arran steamer service—an estimate for £1,000 is being presented to the Dáil this year. It is in the same position as the Belmullet-Sligo steamer service and is supervised by my Department. The loss in three years has also shown a decrease but not as big as in the case of the other service. In this case the actual loss in working in 1925 was £902, which was reduced the year after to £815, and last year to a sum of £609. There are, of course, other charges to be met which bring the sums in 1925 to £1,699, to £1,287 in 1926 and to £1,015 last year. One thousand pounds is being put down this year but negotiations have been going on with those interested in the company and it has been pointed out to them that the money, even if voted, will only be granted on certain conditions, which have been put to them, one being an investigation as to whether a smaller steamer could not do the work as efficiently, and with less cost. The Appropriations-in-Aid are statutory. They are brought in under Section 63 of the Railways Act of 1924.

There is an amendment to sub-head D, so that if Deputies want to raise points on the other sub-heads they should be raised before that amendment is moved.

Perhaps the Minister would give us some idea of the present position of the Dublin and Blessington Tramway Company, what are the prospects of continuing it, and whether he has any proposals for meeting the position that exists in connection with that undertaking. He is aware, no doubt, that the ratepayers in both County Dublin and County Wicklow are under a very great disadvantage, and are suffering a serious hardship by having to contribute to the upkeep of the undertaking. I think some statement should be forthcoming as to the procedure that will be adopted as to the prospects of keeping the concern alive or of raising it to such a state of prosperity that it will not be a charge on either the central Government or the local authorities. If the Minister has any remarks to make I would like to hear them now.

Are we to understand that the amendment on the Order Paper in the name of Deputy Lemass does not raise a question of policy? If it raises a question of policy should it not be moved at this stage so that we could hear what is to be said in favour of it?

I do not know what it raises. I simply got the amendment to sub-head D, and it was circulated as received. I have not any knowledge of what is to be raised on it. The amendment was put down for sub-head D, and I presume that it will be dealt with under sub-head D. An amendment dealing with policy would be one to refer the matter back for consideration.

One would expect under present circumstances, so far as the policy of the Government in regard to the railways is concerned, that the Minister might, on an occasion of this kind, take advantage of the opportunity to tell the House and the country what he thinks of the working of the Amalgamation Act of 1924, and how far he thinks they have gone in regard to the administration of that Act towards the end which the Government had in view when they introduced and passed it. The Minister and Deputies are aware, particularly those Deputies who were in the House when the Railways Act of 1924 was under discussion——

On a point of order, I do not want to avoid any discussion of the amalgamation scheme, but I suggest that it does not arise here. This is simply a Vote dealing mainly with certain statutory payments. On my main Vote I have the Transport and Marine Branch, and it is possible that the Deputy may get a chance of raising on that a matter of policy as to the passing of the Railways Act of 1924, the results that were expected from it, and the results that have actually come from it.

I thought, Sir, and I submit that it would be quite right and proper for me to raise this matter under sub-head A of this Estimate.

That is only an annual payment.

I do not think so. The sums in this particular Vote seem to be in rather water-tight compartments, and I think the question the Deputy wants to raise is the administration of the Railways (Amalgamation) Act and the Minister's general policy with regard to transport. That can surely be raised on the Minister's main Estimate; it is one of the Departments for which the Minister is responsible, so that I think on the salaries of the main Estimate—No. 56—that question might be raised rather than here. I mean that we must not be deceived by the heading "Railways" into thinking that the whole question of the railways arises here.

I bow to your ruling; but I thought, seeing that provision is being made here for a payment arising out of the operations of the 1924 Act, that I might, with your permission, take advantage of this to raise some questions on railways in particular.

I think that the matter ought to be raised, but this payment is a separate payment.

I want to make some references to sub-head C—that is, the Vote for special railway undertakings——

Are we going to deal with the Vote sub-head by sub-head or take the whole Vote together?

Deputy Davin has nothing else to raise under sub-head A?

Then Deputy Moore has raised a question on sub-head B. I think we should dispose of that.

I have been asked a question with regard to the Dublin and Blessington Tramway. I think that Deputy Moore asked me what suggestions I had to offer by which the burden of this tramway on the counties or on the public funds might be lessened. It is not my function to make suggestions with regard to the manner in which the Dublin and Blessington Steam Tram should be run. As a matter of fact, my Department has been in close touch with the county surveyors who operated the tramways at one period, and with the committee of management at the moment. But it is not my function to intervene in a matter of that sort and endeavour to teach these people their business. If they apply for it the Department will give them any advice it can, and if we believe that there are certain economies that could be made and are not made we possibly have the right to come in, inasmuch as we are bound to make a payment, provided the working results are not sufficient to enable these charges to be met. There is a committee of management interesting themselves in this tramway, consisting of thirteen ratepayers of Dublin and Wicklow. They are investigating the question of economies and are trying to find out what can be done to make the system more nearly self-supporting. There is no question of closing the line at the moment; that is not in contemplation. The situation of the guaranteeing baronies might not be improved by merely closing down the line. There is the question of guaranteeing the running under certain conditions, which would not be met at all simply by deciding that the line should not run. In connection with this matter, the only question of liability for the Department at the moment is: Is the Department saddled with the payment of the ordinary liability under the old Act of an amount up to 3 per cent.?

I cannot say that it is possible to have that line so reconstructed or to have such changes either in the management or running of the line that it will cease to be a burden on the baronies and the counties concerned. That will depend entirely on the amount of traffic that happens to be given to it for carriage. It may be that the line will not pay and that it will have to face losses year by year on account of the competition of road vehicles. That is a matter upon which no one can give any very definite judgment. One would have to see what traffic the line will make itself suitable to handle, and how far it will get that traffic in opposition to other forms. But, at the moment no case has been made for closing the line or saying that there is unfair competition as against the line. Up to date there have been certain things attended to in the way of economies and management of the line. These have been looked to.

I cannot accept the idea that the Minister has no responsibility with regard to the prosperity of the line. When the Government finds a situation such as this, where you have a certain number of people in a particular area burdened with liabilities that they have no responsibility for—no one, I think, can hold that a responsibility that was incurred during the grand jury days is one that the people of the present time should be burdened with— I do not agree that the Government has no responsibility to try and relieve that position. The people in that area are suffering a great hardship. I think that at the present moment the contribution from the rates to meet the charge made against the people in the County Wicklow amounts to about 2/3 in the £. When the 1924 Act was being debated here, it was admitted by the President that the division of the liability as between the County Wicklow and the County Dublin was most unjust. He said it could not be defended. There is the further point that the Government has allowed competition to arise which is simply ruining the prospects of that tramway, and yet the Minister states that there is no unfair competition. I am aware that there are at least two bus services in competition with that particular tramway line.

Yes, unfairly.

Unfairly in competition?

Quite unfairly in competition, taking the circumstance into account that the area is burdened with a liability which the Government holds it is responsible for and is going to insist that it will bear. I say it is unfair competition to allow the building up of roads there, practically to encourage bus traffic to compete with that tramway line, and still make the people of that particular area bear the present liability. Nothing has been done, and apparently it is not proposed to do anything, to reapportion that liability, although, as I have already stated, the President admitted when the 1924 Act was under debate that the liability was unfairly divided. I do not know what expert knowledge is being brought to bear on the question now, but there is this contribution of £800 from public funds, and the further contribution from the local ratepayers in respect of that undertaking. In face of that, I think it is up to the Government to review the whole situation and endeavour to redeem it. It cannot go on for ever. As long as it is allowed to go on, it will rankle as an injustice in the minds of the people who have to pay the heavy rates levied on them to meet this liability. In my opinion the situation is one that calls for action on the part of the Government, and they should take steps to relieve it. At the present time it is a matter of the greatest anxiety and worry to those concerned in the counties Wicklow and Dublin, particularly those in County Wicklow.

On the point of unfair competition, Deputy Moore says that it is unfair to allow any other method of transport into this area where certain ratepayers are burdened with certain payments. If the ratepayers think that, the remedy is in their own hands. They need not use these other methods of transport, and if the county council think there is unfair competition, they are the only people who have power to close the road against certain types of traffic.

Will the Minister say why the Government does not take the power to make the county councils do what they should do?

Does not the Minister know very well that the county councils cannot close any roads without the consent of the Minister for Local Government after inquiry has been made?

That is another point. Has the county council put it to the Minister for Local Government that they want the roads closed, and has the Minister for Local Government refused? Deputy Davin asked why the Government does not take power to make the county councils do what they should do. Would Deputy Davin like that to be the rule in Local Government generally: that the Government should take power to make local authorities do what the Government think they ought to do? I thought the line was entirely the opposite.

Do in this case what you have been doing in other cases.

Let me get back to Deputy Moore's point. The county councils have power to close a road against certain types of traffic. If they think that the 'buses running on the road are unfair competition, they being the people burdened with big payments in connection with this rather uneconomic concern, then let them close the roads; let the ratepayers have a certain amount of appreciation that their services are running and use them. It only requires to give a certain amount of traffic to the Blessington line to make it pay.

There is a joint responsibility in connection with that particular road. Both Kildare and Wicklow are concerned in it, and before anything could be done the consent of Kildare would have to be obtained also.

Does the Minister suggest that the Minister for Local Government would sanction a proposal by the county council to close a main road?

I do not think that any case of unfairness could be made. Is the position to be this, and is this the principle that Deputies want accepted: that people in certain areas are to be deprived of certain cheaper forms of transport simply because-certain people in these areas are paying a contribution that was fastened on them in the old days for the upkeep of a particular type of line? I do not think that there is any unfairness in this at all. I think that if there was it would be for the county councils to move in the matter, apart from moving in the sense of stopping up the traffic. Let them make some motion in the matter. Let them put forward proposals, and let us have their views. As to the disproportion of the amounts borne by Wicklow and by Dublin, the considered views of the Joint Committee of Management composed of people from Wicklow and Dublin could be given on that. Let them say that the proportion is unduly severe on Wicklow as opposed to Dublin. If the Joint Committee of Management made such a recommendation it would have to be borne in mind, though I do not say it would be acted on. But let that Joint Committee of Management bring forward a recommendation that the burden is unduly oppressive on Wicklow and should be shifted. I think I know what Deputy Moore is driving at, but I desire to say this to him, that there is going to be no shifting of that burden on to public funds.

Even if it goes on for ever?

It will not be stopped from going on for ever simply by transferring it to the public. If certain people have put up money, and if certain guarantees have been given to them that they will be repaid, then the repayments will have to go on. You are only cloaking the thing if you shift the burden from the local ratepayers to the general taxpayers. You are not doing away with the burden by transferring it to the taxpayer, and that, I think, was the tendency of Deputy Moore's argument, and that is what I object to. There has been no case made for it.

The county councils have on certain occasions not alone approached the Tramway Company but the Government with a view to taking it over. This is a relic of the old grand jury days.

Taking over what?

The Blessington tramway. The people in the Wicklow area do not use the tram, and yet they are liable for a rate of 1/3 in the £ in connection with the concern. The area in the County Wicklow that has to bear this rate is very small as regards valuation in comparison with County Dublin. Therefore, the rate does not press as heavily on the people in County Dublin as it does on the County Wicklow. The people from other counties are using that tramway, while the people in West Wicklow who have not any use for its service are made liable for the payment of this additional rate. The Minister suggested that the county council could have the road closed up.

I did not suggest that. I was answering Deputy Moore.

I am not aware that a county council has the power to close up a main or a trunk road against any other traffic. What I say is that they ought to have the power to prevent competition from a large number of buses using the road. I may say that the Wicklow County Council asked for special powers in connection with that matter. I agree with Deputy Moore in the appeal that he has made to the Government. The President is familiar with this whole matter. As far back as 1920, when the President was Minister for Local Government, a deputation from the Wicklow County Council waited on him. The President then gave an undertaking that if the ratepayers in the guaranteeing area would pay the rates in that year, he would make some arrangement for a Government contribution to help to relieve the people of that area. On the promise that we received from the President on that occasion, I appealed to the ratepayers to pay the rates in that year. Unfortunately that promise has not been fulfilled. I think the Minister should make some arrangement to relieve the burden on these poor people. Whether the tramway is running or not, this is a gilt-edged security for the people who have shares in it, the position being that the ratepayers in the guaranteeing area are liable for the payment of this rate of 1/3 in the £.

The only question that arises here is whether this sum of £800 should be voted from Government money. The question as to what proportion of the rate should be paid by the County Wicklow as opposed to the County Dublin does not arise on this Estimate, and I do not intend to go into that. I am not sure that I have overstated the position as to the powers of county councils with regard to roads. I know they have powers with regard to certain roads. It may be, as Deputy Everett says, that these powers do not extend to main roads. That would answer a certain part of the argument I put up. As to the question of unfairness. I was only answering Deputy Moore when I referred to that, because I do not think any unfairness arises at all. All that I am concerned with here is the voting of this sum of £800, and if the tramway stopped immediately the guaranteeing areas would still have to pay their guaranteed amount of the charge. The £800 from the Government would cease if the tramways were closed down. If the tramway closes down and the people who use it are deprived of that method of transport, and if the people of the guaranteeing areas have still to pay their share of the guaranteed money, I do not see that the position will be very much better.

On sub-head C, has the Railway Tribunal not got the power to compel the Great Southern Railways to take over the Castlecomer, Arigna, and Wolfhill lines?

On certain terms.

Are they not empowered to enforce terms—that is, to do it compulsorily?

On such terms as the Railway Tribunal would consider to be equitable.

Is it to be understood that the Railway Tribunal has not yet considered this matter?

They have not considered it, because it has not been presented to them formally. The case has not yet finally been made. It is a very difficult and intricate matter. The officials in my Department have been engaged on this for some time. One can see considerations that might arise which the Department would raise either before the tribunal or the Great Southern Railways. For instance, the question of closing the lines altogether.

It may be a case might be made to the tribunal that there is no necessity for the line. There may be the question of a line never paying, and the possibility that the tribunal might be coerced by that argument to force the Great Southern Railways Company to take over the line on terms that would enable the Great Southern Railways immediately to close it down. It is an important argument. That has to be advanced before the tribunal. The Department is not in the position to bring it before the tribunal, but will be soon.

I thought the amalgamation was a sort of primary duty of the tribunal, and that it should proceed with that before undertaking other work.

The Minister said last year that the case for the absorption of these lines would be considered in the autumn of last year. Now he states that a case is being prepared and that it may be considered this year. I would like to know what difficulty has arisen, why it was not possible to bring the case before the tribunal last year, and why the State has to pay £2,000 again this year to defray the cost of working the line. I would also like to know whether the Minister will tell us whether any provision is made in the case that will be presented to the tribunal to ensure that the lines will be kept working. These lines were built at considerable cost for the purpose of developing the colliery industry in the districts concerned. They have undoubtedly been worked at a loss since. The loss each year, except in 1926, was considerable. The decrease in the loss in 1926 was due to the fact that there was a coal strike in England, and the quantity of coal carried over the lines increased to a very great extent. The lines will undoubtedly continue to be worked at a loss unless the colliery industry is developed. The State owns the lines, and if it treats the matter as a business man would and say: "Here is an asset we possess, and which is now working at a loss because of facts that are only indirectly under our control," a business man in these circumstances would endeavour to see how far he could influence the facts that were not directly under his control to ensure that the loss on the working of the lines would be diminished. The State itself is a large purchaser of coal. By purchasing more coal from these Irish collieries they could reduce the loss on the working of the railway lines by ensuring that a larger volume of coal would be carried over them. I do not know whether the Minister was contemplating in the case he proposes to put before the tribunal to compensate the railway company for taking over the lines. I hope not.

Why? A dud line like this?

They are dud lines because they have not been worked properly. I think it is generally known that the Arigna coal mines were deliberately prevented from becoming an economic proposition owing to the fact that trucks and engines were not provided when the orders for coal had been secured.

I think I had better brief the Deputy to appear before the tribunal.

You might do worse.

Why argue the case here?

This is the only opportunity we will have of discussing the matter before it comes before the tribunal. I would like to have an assurance from the Minister that the amalgamated company will not close down the lines, that they will be worked with the fullest possible advantage to the collieries there, and that as an incentive to the railway company to work them economically they be paid nothing by way of compensation in taking over the lines. Something like £350,000 was spent in the construction of these lines. Even if they were scrapped at the moment the scrap iron and the value of the land over which the lines are built is considerable, and the railway company would be given an asset in these lines. We should see that the lines would be worked in the best interests of the country, which would be the development of the collieries they serve. We will have the transport policy before us on the general vote for the Minister's Department. We can discuss it in relation to this particular line. If it is the opinion of the Minister the lines are uneconomic it is essential to get rid of them as quickly as possible to remove the liability and hand them over to anyone who will take them, and perhaps pay them for taking them. That is one matter. If it is the opinion of the Minister that these lines were built for the purpose of enabling collieries to be developed—and if it has been shown in 1926 that the loss in working could be reduced considerably and possibly eliminated altogether— more drastic steps should be taken to ensure that the fullest possible service to the collieries will be maintained and that they will be given every chance to develop. One way in which that could be done would be by the State purchasing a larger quantity of coal than it does at the moment.

I am surprised to hear Deputy Lemass saying that this dud railway would be an asset to any business or railway company under existing circumstances. Deputy Lemass, I know, is aware that the Wolfhill colliery is closed down and that the affairs of that colliery are in the hands of a receiver for a year or so, and will be in his hands as long as he thinks he will receive anything from anybody in connection with it. The colliery machinery has been scrapped. If the gentleman who scrapped that machinery scrapped the railway material he would do it for the same purpose, that is, making money out of it. This Estimate, as is stated in the heading, is to make good deficits in certain lines, including Wolfhill. I am not aware that it has been working for the past couple of years. Who is to receive this £200? Is it the receiver, the gentleman who closed down the Wolfhill collieries and threw out the 200 men who had been employed there for a considerable time? The same gentleman has been following up the ordinary shareholders for the recovery of the amounts they guaranteed in years gone by to the Wolfhill Colliery Company, Limited. I am surprised that Deputy Hennessy is not here to say something on this question, because he has been pestering me in the lobby in the interests of his constituents who invested a few pounds in the colliery and who want it back again, while this gentleman is following them up for the amounts they have not paid. Does the receiver get this £200?

That is satisfactory so far. I do not wish to prejudice the tribunal, and I know anything I say will not prejudice its decision. No Deputy who knows the circumstances under which this railway is carried on, and which is serving no useful purpose, would say that it should be taken over by any business concern. It would be a dead weight in this case. The suggestion that the Wolfhill railway should be passed on to the Great Southern Railways Company is, I think, a very valuable one, if there was any hope of re-opening the collieries. There is no use in suggesting that the Great Southern Railways Company should take over the Wolfhill railway until there is some hope of re-opening the colliery there. It would serve no purpose of any kind under existing circumstances, and will not unless the Government or some body of business men will agree to put sufficient money into the colliery to enable it to re-start. It has not been stated who is to get the £200 which it is estimated may be required to make good the deficit on these lines.

There is a company which works a line, and the losses on the working of it are made good. That company is the Great Southern Railways Company.

I wanted to make certain that the receiver was not going to get his hands on this money. I blame him, or the people behind him, for the closing down of the Wolfhill collieries. I would be sorry to be a party to voting one penny to the gentleman who is acting as receiver, and will continue to act as long as he has any hope of receiving anything from anybody.

I find myself in a great difficulty in answering the questions that have been raised. This matter has to be argued before the Railway Tribunal. If I answered Deputy Lemass, to a certain extent I might be answering arguments that I might be putting to the Railway Tribunal through my officials, and I would be prejudicing the whole case.

It is not necessary for the Minister to answer my arguments. He could agree with me.

I do not agree with anything the Deputy said about the history of the railways—when they were founded, the circumstances under which they were founded, the possibility of their being made an economic success by certain Government action, the details he entered into regarding the amount of traffic required, and, I think, the possibility of securing it at a certain period to make a success of the line that is working. I think we had better leave this over to be argued before the tribunal. As to the delay, the Railways Act, 1924 (Section 2. subsection 2), states that—

"For the purposes of this Act the Arigna Colliery Extension Railway, the Athy-Wolfhill Colliery Railway, and the Castlecomer Railway shall on the 1st day of January, 1925, or such earlier or later date as the Railway Tribunal after consultation with the Minister may fix, be absorbed by the amalgamated company on terms to be agreed with the owners of those railways or, in default of such agreement, on terms to be decided by the Railway Tribunal."

We have been endeavouring to get an agreement as to the basis on which these railways should be taken over. If we fail it is a question that has to be put to the Railway Tribunal. The matter is sub judice. I would prefer not to go into the details. Deputy Davin says that the Wolfhill line is not working. A section of it is working, but a case will be put before the Railway Tribunal, and in the meantime we are simply making this provision in the event of the railways being liable for this financial year, or a considerable portion of it, for losses that have to be met. I would not like it to be taken as an order from this House—if it is going to appear in that light we will have to go into the merits of the whole case—I would not like it to be an order that there is to be no question of any terms being arranged which meant compensation to the railway company.

The whole merits of the case will have to be considered and it will be for the tribunal to decide what should be the proper terms. The Deputy has touched on one danger in the whole situation and that is that the matter is more likely to be treated simply as a business proposition when it comes before the Railway Tribunal. My Department will have certain arguments to offer but the matter is likely to be treated almost entirely as a business proposition. The question is can this line be made economical in its working or must the Southern Railways be forced to take it over without having been given anything in exchange for doing so? It may be argued that the whole question of railway amalgamation should be reconsidered. I should like to have something definite on that question but I do not think anybody's hands should be tied in this matter. We have certain duties to perform under this Act. We tried to get it by agreement but now we have to go before the Railway Tribunal. Unless the House wants to have the details argued out and the merits discussed—unless some good reason is shown for that—I would prefer that it should be left over until the argument proceeds before the Railway Tribunal.

Under sub-head D I observe that during the financial year 1927-28 there was a Supplementary Estimate of £6,500 made for an advance to the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company. I notice under the Estimates this year no mention is made of a subsidy or advance towards this railway. As the Minister knows, this is one of the railways that was not brought into the amalgamation although approximately 99 per cent. of the line is situate in the Saorstát and only two miles run in the Six Counties. This line has to meet unfair competition in the way of motor buses in the Six Counties, the owners of which motor services employ sweated labour and ask their employees to work long hours. The result is that this particular company's employees are working at a ten per cent. reduction as compared with the amalgamated companies' employees. The railway company is up against unfair competition. I would like to know from the Minister if it is his intention later on to introduce a Supplementary Estimate in order to give an advance to this company. I would like to have a statement from the Minister with regard to the future management of this particular line as rumour has it that it is about to be taken over by a cross-Channel firm. Perhaps the Minister would say something about this rumour and the Government's policy towards it.

I know that this is a subject dear to the hearts of the Donegal Deputies and I did not stop Deputy Cassidy on that account. But there is nothing in the Estimates which will enable this matter to be raised. There was an Estimate last year and the fact that there is no Estimate this year rules out a discussion of this matter. It can, however, be raised by a question to the Minister or it can be raised by a motion on the adjournment. Deputy Lemass' amendment has precedence of any such question as this.

I am afraid it will be my painful duty to bring in a Supplementary Estimate under this sub-head later on. That item has always been brought in by way of a Supplementary Estimate, because it means that the negotiations which go on, and the examination of accounts have not been completed at the time during which the ordinary Estimate is due for printing, and it is apparently a matter for a Supplementary Estimate. With regard to the rumour mentioned by Deputy Cassidy, the Government's policy generally with regard to rumours is to deny them.

To deny that the negotiations have taken place?

Sub-head D is an item for £27,360 for annuities to repay advances by the National Debt Commissioners under the Railways (Ireland) Acts. 1896, and the Marine Works (Ireland) Act, 1902. I move that the Vote be reduced in respect of this item by the entire amount of it— £27,360. I think this amount should not be paid, and I would like to give the Dáil some arguments to justify the amendment. The Parliament of the old political unit known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, passed the Railway Act of 1896 and the Marine Works Act of 1902; the former for the purpose of facilitating railway construction in poorer areas, and the latter for facilitating the construction of marine works, etc., in connection with industries in congested areas. At the time the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland borrowed money from the Treasury through the National Debt Commissioners for the purpose of making advances under these Acts, they drew from the Treasury of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland money which was held there in respect of savings banks and similar institutions situated both in Great Britain and in Ireland. The money advanced was repayable in instalments through the Treasury of the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

When considering this Vote I would ask the Deputies to bear that fact in mind—that the advances were made by the Government of Great Britain and Ireland out of money secured from Great Britain and from Ireland and that this money was repayable to the Treasury of Great Britain and Ireland. In 1921 when the political division between the two countries came, it was obvious that some adjustment in connection with this and similar items would have to be made. It is clear, I hope, that the money was not due to Great Britain; that money was not advanced by Great Britain. Neither was it advanced by Ireland, nor was it due to Ireland. It was advanced from the funds common to the two countries and by the Government which claimed at the time to legislate for both countries. With the division of the political partnership there should have come a division of the assets and liabilities of the old United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. On a fair division the Saorstát would have secured a just proportion of the assets and it also should have been saddled with its just proportion of the liabilities. Unless the old United Kingdom was a bankrupt concern the assets exceeded the liabilities and consequently we should be receiving a payment under that head. If there was no agreement in that respect, it is obvious that the money which was repayable under these Acts was certainly not repayable into the British Treasury, not all of it. These annuities, in the event of no agreement being arrived at, would have been paid in part to England and in part to Ireland. They were an asset of the old United Kingdom and we were entitled to our share of those assets. They were part of the public debt of the old United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

Whatever views Deputies may hold of the political division that took place there can be no doubt whatever that the entire amount of this sum is not due to the Treasury of the British Government. It is not due under any head whatsoever to that Treasury. The Government claims that they have secured immunity from any liability in respect of the public debt of Great Britain by conceding their agreement to the permanent partition of the country, and consequently none of this sum is due to England nor to the British Treasury. If this sum has been paid in the past it has been paid illegally. There have been no statutes, no Acts of this House authorising its payment. In fact, in the statement concerning Ireland's commitments under the Ultimate Financial Settlement made by the Minister for Finance in this House no reference to this payment was made. We are entitled to ask why not? If this House agreed to pass this sum, they are giving away the money of the Irish people. They are giving it away without any authority or without any necessity. Even if the Saorstát is responsible for a portion of the public debt of the old United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland the entire amount of this sum should not be paid. I would remind you again that the money was not advanced by Great Britain. It was not secured by the Governmental Department concerned out of moneys provided by Great Britain. It was not repayable to Great Britain. It was repayable to the common fund of the two countries. As I said, our liability in respect to that public debt of which this is part was stated to have been repealed or to have been wiped out by the Boundary Settlement. Therefore we owe none of this money, and therefore I say that the Dáil should not pass this Vote, and should not compel the Irish people to pay money which they are not legally bound to pay.

I wish to deal with two or three points. As to this payment having been illegal in any year prior to this, the only answer is a definite denial. No payment is illegal that is made under the authority of this House. These payments were brought forward year after year in the Estimates and were taken up in the Appropriation Act, and were sanctioned by this House. There is no case whatever for saying that these payments were illegal. It is a misuse of language, or else it indicates a misunderstanding of the position. As to these payments being part of the public debt which is referred to in Article 5, they are not. The public debt there is what is known as the dead-weight debt, the debt against which there were no specific assets. If that interpretation were to hold, it would cover such things as the Telephone Capital Account and moneys expended in this country, raised in particular ways, and the assets left in this country. Similarly, we would have to consider the Public Buildings Sites Act and moneys expended under it. We would have to consider where there were definite buildings here into which we came for the purposes of use and enjoyment and which we now have. Never by any stretch of imagination could this payment be brought within the ambit of what the Deputy described as a public debt.

The Deputy talked of payments which should have been made to the consolidated Exchequer of the late United Kingdom. If that is going to be raised, this single item cannot be discussed alone. This forms one item in a series of items which were before the Government when a bargain had to be made with regard to the distribution of the assets and the distribution of the liabilities of the late United Kingdom. If one is to segregate any item which finally came for settlement, this stands against one item, and that is a claim by the British that this country ought to refund a payment made by them under the Railways Act of £1,085,000. I would prefer not to re-open that matter; I would prefer not to re-open a subject in which there was a claim for £1,085,000 against us, a claim out of which we might get in consideration for a repayment of £27,000.

On what grounds was that claim for £1,085,000 made?

On the grounds that the money had been paid here.

By whom?

By the English Government.

In what year?

I think it was 1922.

That was in respect of the Government control of railways during the War period, and it owed the money to the railway companies in respect of that control. The Government of the United Kingdom owed it.

And they had paid the railways up to a certain point, and then we came into possession. After that point an additional payment came along, amounting to more than £1,085,000, but the final sum was fixed at £1,085,000. I would prefer not to reopen a bargain which gets us rid of that repayment, a very justifiably claimed repayment of £1,085,000. in consideration for this sum in the Estimate.

Was there a bargain, and by whom was the bargain made? You are taking one particular liability and putting it against a particular asset that it has no relation to.

If we are going to reopen this whole question, this item cannot be discussed alone. We cannot discuss this matter alone or segregate it as one item which, in the final settlement, came up in relation to a railway matter to which it has a certain application. The whole thing cannot be discussed on a railway matter alone. The £1,085,000 was in consideration for more than this repayment.

There may have been secret agreements. This is possibly another one that has only come to light now. The Minister stated it is not part of the public debt of Great Britain and is not in the Ultimate Financial Settlement. When was the bargain arrived at, between whom, and on what grounds?

One might say there were possible bargains proceeding every week in the days of the Provisional Government and the early days of the first Government of the State with regard to Departments being handed over, functions transferred, and assets and liabilities transferred. The general rule was that where an asset was taken a liability was taken also. These things all came in at the end. There were certain agreements that had been reached, and they were being acted on, and the final settlement was that the old agreements stood, and there were certain outstanding things out of which we got vastly the better bargain.

The Minister said there were certain assets and liabilities. Does the Minister admit that the assets exceeded the liabilities of the late United Kingdom?

I would not like to have to answer that question.

We must assume, in view of the fact that we are left with an annual payment of over £5,000,000, that the assets did not exceed the liabilities, and that at the time of the dissolution that concern of the United Kingdom was bankrupt.

I would not like to say bankrupt. I might say they had anticipated certain resources that were coming into being afterwards, and that they had piled up debts against future wealth in the country.

A particular item of this kind cannot be discussed in detail.

I quite agree.

The Dáil should not pass a payment concerning which it has no information. The Minister said there was a bargain struck. The Dáil was never consulted concerning that bargain. The actual asset we secured in return for the surrender of the assets we possessed under these Acts has not been made known to us. If you can say one particular asset or one particular liability was placed against another, we can see whether we got the best of it or not, but that has not been indicated. Here is undoubtedly an asset which this State possessed and which was given away, and we got nothing whatever in return.

I do not understand why the Deputy states that this was an asset. The State never possessed the asset of the payment to it yearly of £27,000. This State never possessed that as an asset. This State does possess certain railways built under certain Acts. and it possesses certain piers. We still have these. Those are the assets we have.

I agree the old United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was entitled to receive annuities in return for advances made out of the funds in the possession of that Treasury and that Government, secured from savings banks and other similar institutions in Great Britain and in Ireland. If there was a division of the assets at all we were entitled to our proportion of these annual payments.

But these assets were not pooled.

We were entitled to our proportion of these annual payments, and we have surrendered our right in that respect. We give the entire payment into the British Treasury, and we do not know that we have got anything in exchange for it. Therefore the Dáil should not agree to this payment until fuller information is before us.

On the question of pooling the assets, if moneys had been advanced by the National Debt Commissioners for public works in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, that this was the entire sum and that we were paying this £27,000 in repayment for the entire sum spent in the four countries for public works, then the Deputy's argument would have validity. However, all the assets and the property upon which this sum was spent are in this country. At least they were. We have the assets. They were never pooled, and I do not see where the Deputy's argument comes in.

But the money advanced to construct these works came in part from this country. Will the Minister admit that?

I would have to look up the Savings Banks' records to see where it came from.

Undoubtedly it did. There are £5,000,000 over there which the British Government are using. Undoubtedly in the possession of the National Debt Commissioners there was money which came from Ireland. We must consider that Ireland contributed her due proportion in relation to the advances made in respect of these works. Therefore the Free State area was entitled to get back that proportion of the amount they advanced. It is entitled to a proportion—I cannot say what the proportion is—of this sum in consequence. It is obvious we are not claiming that proportion of this, sum to which the State is legitimately entitled. Therefore we must assume that some asset has been given to the State in exchange, or else we are being defrauded or are unduly generous. It is said that we have no responsibility for the public debt of Great Britain. I do not accept the Minister's interpretation of what the public debt of Great Britain is. It is probably one that is concocted for his own purposes. It is not the interpretation of the term "public debt" to be taken from the 1920 Act, for example. The point I want to make clear is that if we have no responsibility for the public debt of Great Britain, and that if this is part of the public debt, it should not be paid. If it is part of the public debt the whole of it should not be paid beyond there. We want to see that the Dáil will have fuller information and will know exactly what the bargain was in relation to this particular item, and what reasons the Ministry have to advance to justify the House in passing this sum.

I do not know whether I would be in order in raising a matter in connection with railways in County Waterford. I was not present at the opening of the discussion.

Perhaps the Deputy will realise that we are now definitely dealing with an amendment by Deputy Lemass to reduce the amount of Item D by £27,360. We have to keep to that for the moment. What does the Deputy want to raise?

It refers to an amount due to the ratepayers of Waterford of approximately £30,000 by the British Treasury. By some financial jugglery it has been retained in England.

I am afraid that would not come under the sub-head. There is a very peculiar point in connection with this amendment. The total sum set out here is £25,636. The difference between that sum and the sum of £52,136 has already been voted in the Vote on Account. It seems to be impossible to put the amendment in its present form.

Are we to take it that one-third of the amount has been paid?

Part of it has already been voted. It means that the amount in the Deputy's amendment will have to be reduced.

Could we find out what the actual amount is?

Perhaps you would accept an amendment to reduce the amount by £18,000.

Has this particular item been included in the amount already voted?

No subheads are mentioned in the Vote on Account.

Why, then, are we assuming that part of it has been voted?

I am not assuming that. I only saw this amendment at 3 o'clock. I have a motion here to vote a sum of £25,000, and I am asked to put an amendment to reduce that by £27,000. I must find a solution for that.

It is the principle of the payment on which we desire a decision. I will make the amount in the amendment £18,000.

Amendment, that the Vote in respect of Item D be reduced by £18,000, put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 57: Níl, 63.

  • Frank Aiken.
  • Denis Allen.
  • Richard Anthony.
  • Neal Blaney.
  • Gerald Boland.
  • Patrick Boland.
  • Daniel Bourke.
  • Seán Brady.
  • Robert Briscoe.
  • Henry Broderick.
  • Daniel Buckley.
  • Frank Carty.
  • Archie J. Cassidy.
  • Patrick Clancy.
  • Michael Clery.
  • Hugh Colohan.
  • Eamon Cooney.
  • Fred. Hugh Crowley.
  • Tadhg Crowley.
  • William Davin.
  • Thomas Derrig.
  • Eamon de Valera.
  • James Everett.
  • Frank Fahy.
  • Hugo Flinn.
  • Andrew Fogarty.
  • Patrick J. Gorry.
  • John Goulding.
  • Patrick Hogan (Clare).
  • Samuel Holt.
  • Patrick Houlihan.
  • Stephen Jordan.
  • Michael Joseph Kennedy.
  • William R. Kent.
  • James Joseph Killane.
  • Mark Killilea.
  • Michael Kilroy.
  • Seán F. Lemass.
  • Patrick John Little.
  • Ben Maguire.
  • Seán MacEntee.
  • Séamus Moore.
  • Daniel Morrissey.
  • Thomas Mullins.
  • Thomas J. O'Connell.
  • Patrick Joseph O'Dowd.
  • Séan T. O'Kelly.
  • Matthew O'Reilly.
  • Thomas P. Powell.
  • Patrick J. Ruttledge.
  • James Ryan.
  • Martin Sexton.
  • Timothy Sheehy (Tipperary).
  • Patrick Smith.
  • John Tubridy.
  • Richard Walsh.
  • Francis C. Ward.

Níl

  • William P. Aird.
  • Ernest Henry Alton.
  • James Walter Beckett.
  • George Cecil Bennett.
  • Séamus A. Bourke.
  • Seán Brodrick.
  • Alfred Byrne.
  • John Joseph Byrne.
  • Edmund Carey.
  • Mrs. Margt. Collins-O'Driscoll.
  • Martin Conlan.
  • Michael P. Connolly.
  • Bryan Ricco Cooper.
  • William T. Cosgrave.
  • James Crowley.
  • Michael Davis.
  • Peter de Loughrey.
  • Eugene Doherty.
  • Myles Keogh.
  • Finian Lynch.
  • Arthur Patrick Mathews.
  • Martin McDonogh.
  • Michael Og McFadden.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Joseph W. Mongan.
  • James E. Murphy.
  • James Sproule Myles.
  • Martin Michael Nally.
  • Bartholomew O'Connor.
  • Timothy Joseph O'Donovan.
  • Dermot Gun O'Mahony.
  • John J. O'Reilly.
  • James N. Dolan.
  • Peadar Seán Doyle.
  • Edmund John Duggan.
  • James Dwyer.
  • Barry M. Egan.
  • Osmond Thos. Grattan Esmonde.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • James Fitzgerald-Kenney.
  • John Good.
  • Denis J. Gorey.
  • John J. Hassett.
  • Michael R. Heffernan.
  • Thomas Hennessy.
  • Mark Henry.
  • Patrick Hogan (Galway).
  • Richard Holohan.
  • Michael Jordan.
  • Patrick Michael Kelly.
  • Gearcid O'Sullivan.
  • John Marcus O'Sullivan.
  • Patrick Reynolds.
  • Vincent Rice.
  • Martin Roddy.
  • Patrick W. Shaw.
  • Timothy Sheehy (West Cork).
  • William Edward Thrift.
  • Michael Tierney.
  • Daniel Vaughan.
  • Vincent Joseph White.
  • George Wolfe.
  • Jasper Travers Wolfe.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies G. Boland and Allen. Níl: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle.
Amendment declared defeated.

In connection with sub-head E, when I saw this sub-head on the Estimate I went to the Official Records of previous years to find out what I could about it. I find that in 1924 the Minister for Industry and Commerce informed the House that it was anticipated that the outstanding claims in this connection would be disposed of in that financial year, and that the provision then made was certainly ample to cover the liability. In 1925 he informed the House that it was expected that negotiations concerning the acquisition of the lands referred to would be completed in that financial year, and that the sum of £6,800 would be sufficient to discharge the liability. In 1926 he came to the House and stated that it was estimated then that £5,000 would clear the debt, and that it would be disposed of in that financial year. Again in 1927 he came to the House with the same sub-head, and said that this item next year would disappear from the Estimate. This year —1928—the item is still here, as large as life.

Not as large.

Not quite as large, but the sub-head is certainly there. The negotiations in this connection appear to have been going on for many years, and each year from 1924 the Minister has come solemnly to the House and assured them that that was the last year the sub-head would appear. This year he started to say that, but corrected himself, and merely said he hoped it would disappear from the Estimates this year.

I expect it.

He expects that this year the hopes of 1924, 1925, 1926, and 1927 will be realised. That is very satisfactory.

It shows what the delays of the law are.

It is possible the Minister knows as little about it as I do, and is just repeating the information he is given by the heads of his Department. Perhaps the House can be informed why there has been such extraordinary delay in clearing up the matter of the acquisition of these lands.

I feel as if I were interfering in a debate on land purchase. The reason is that certain people cannot prove title, but I have every hope that they will prove title this year and that the item will disappear from the Estimates. It is to be noticed that we did not expend in any year the moneys voted, that there has been no accumulation.

Will the Minister say why there is nothing here for the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway?

Deputy Cassidy got an answer to that question.

Main question put and declared carried.

Progress ordered to be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.
The Dáil rose at 8.30 p.m.
Barr
Roinn