IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 59—MARINE SERVICE. – Dáil Éireann (6th Dáil) – Friday, 4 May 1928

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 59—MARINE SERVICE.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £3,515 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na Muir-Sheirbhíse (Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894-1921, Crown Lands Acts, 1829-1866).

That a sum not exceeding £3,515 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Marine Service (Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894-1921, Crown Lands Acts, 1829-1866).

PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTER for INDUSTRY and COMMERCE (Mr. Dolan)

This Vote is for the administration and control of merchant shipping and the coast life-saving service. There is nothing new in the different items we have this year. The Vote is much on the same lines as in previous years. The items are set out in simple form, and there is an explanatory note wherever it is considered necessary. I think that Deputies can easily understand the different items. The duties are entirely governed by statute. We have a staff of officials to carry out the supervision necessary to ensure that all ships trading with our ports fulfil the conditions of the Merchant Shipping Acts. We have, in addition to that, the control of the coast life-saving service. We have 53 stations working in charge of volunteer crews. At each of the stations there is an official in charge of the volunteer crews. All the stations are now connected by telephone. Heretofore there was a difficulty in connection with that, but they are now entirely linked up by telephones. The Appropriations-in-Aid are made up of fees received for services rendered by our officers. In addition to that we receive a payment of £800 from the Irish Lights Commissioners in respect of the services of our Engineer Surveyor.

Mr. LEMASS

In connection with this Vote, probably the most effective criticism that could be offered is that in consequence of the Government's activity in other matters this Vote is so small. I presume it will be in order to raise the matter of the Government's inactivity in the matter of merchant shipping legislation. It is a long time now since the Minister for Industry and Commerce first stated that merchant shipping legislation was in contemplation by the Government.

Mr. DOLAN

On a point of order, I submit that any matter connected with legislation cannot be raised on this Vote. This is a Vote for the administration of powers we have. I think that the matter referred to by Deputy Lemass might best be introduced on the Vote for the Ministers' salaries.

Major COOPER

It is not in order to raise a question of legislation on any Estimate.

Mr. LEMASS

I am prepared to take the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle on the matter. It seems to me that we have such a lot to discuss on the Vote for Ministers' salaries that it would be no harm to spread it over other Votes.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I presume that what the Deputy really wants is to urge the Minister to bring in legislation in regard to merchant shipping. I am afraid that that could not be raised on this Vote.

Mr. LEMASS

I take it that we are not entitled, not only to discuss legislation, but even to suggest it?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

No. In fact, the suggestion of legislation involves the criticism of existing legislation.

Mr. LEMASS

This is a Vote for marine services, and, apart from certain coast life-saving functions which are performed, there is no service performed that is of any value to Ireland. Practically all the companies operating from Irish ports are foreign companies, and even in these foreign companies it is impossible for Irish masters or mates to get berths. On the question of the development of a mercantile marine in this country, I thought that it would be on this Vote that it would be discussed——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I see now what the Deputy wants to raise. I do not think the Deputy can raise it merely because the title of the Vote is Marine Services. The essence of the whole debate on Estimates is that the Oireachtas passes certain laws and that the Ministry in office have to administer these laws and have to get money from the House to administer them. Criticism of the Estimates may be criticism as to how the Government is carrying out its duties under the existing laws, and, as has been pointed out, that criticism might go so far, for radical reasons, as to refuse to give any money at all. That is the procedure that could be adopted. I think if the Deputy wants to advocate a revision of the marine shipping code he would have to do it by the adoption of some other method such as putting down a motion calling on the Government to bring in legislation to deal with the whole matter. It is manifestly clear that a Deputy in Opposition could not bring in legislation of that kind, as it would involve an enormous technical question. The only way it could be satisfactorily debated would be by putting down a motion. That may be led up to by a question or a motion raised on the adjournment, but it cannot be raised here on a small Vote for a particular service.

Mr. MOORE

Will it be in order on the Vote for the Ministers' salaries to criticise the Minister for failing to develop an Irish mercantile marine or to suggest help towards such a service? I suggest it would be in order to do that.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Deputy Lemass would be in order if he could keep his vocabulary throughout the whole of his speech in line with Deputy Moore's, but I do not think he could make a speech on the subject without advocating legislation. The Minister could not do what Deputy Moore suggests, without legislation, or it is held that he could not. It seems to be the maxim that on a Vote for a Minister's salary, you can discuss every conceivable thing he has to do but, in Parliamentary theory at any rate, the Minister cannot pass laws. He only suggests them. Both Houses of the Oireachtas pass them.

Mr. AIKEN

I wish to ask the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister whether this branch of the industrial department has any control over such bodies or any representatives of such bodies as the Carlingford Lough Commissioners? I suppose there are other such bodies established throughout the country still carrying on and collecting harbour dues on boats coming into the harbours and into the Irish Free State ports. I would like to know if the Government of the Free State has any control whatsoever over these bodies or any representation on them.

Mr. DOLAN

The question of the Carlingford Lough Commissioners is a matter on which I will give the Deputy information later on. I have not any information on it at the moment.

Mr. LEMASS

On the matter of sub-head F—Coast Life-Saving Service, I wish to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what arrangements have been made with the Board of Works to prevent unnecessary duplication between the work in connection with this sub-head and the work done by the Board of Works in the same connection. I notice in the estimate for the Board of Works there is a Vote of £500 for alterations and improvements in the Coast Life-Saving Stations and a sum of £1,392 for maintenance and repair. We are here asked to vote salaries for inspectors and superintendents in connection with these stations. We must presume that the Board of Works also have inspectors and superintendents going round examining these stations to see whether they are in repair and in working order. Unless there was a rigid check upon the work there is a danger of duplication and unnecessary expense. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to inquire and let us know if there is any such duplication, and if there is such duplication to take steps to discontinue it.

Mr. DOLAN

There is not any duplication. The Board of Works carry out any structural improvement work that has to be done in the other Departments. The Board of Works carry out these. These life-saving stations are purely for the purpose of life saving around the coast. They are all linked up and there have been certain improvements carried out in these stations. There are improvements going on for linking up the services. For instance, they are being connected by telephone. The Board of Works are responsible for that. We are responsible for training the volunteers and for their efficiency. Under that head there are certain expenses. Generally speaking, that is the position. We control the life-saving services all round the coast. We have a staff for that purpose. But any work in the way of improvements there is to be carried out is carried out by the Board of Works and it is debited to the other Departments.

Mr. LEMASS

Would the Board of Works be responsible for ensuring that there was a supply of rockets at the different stations, and that they are in good order?

Mr. DOLAN

No. We are responsible for that.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Is there in the Board of Works Estimate any item other than the item under the head of alterations and improvements to stations—that is, to the buildings; is there any other item to which the Deputy refers?

Mr. LEMASS

No, but the point is if there are inspectors and superintendents visiting these stations for the purpose of ensuring that the crews are familiar with their work and that the rockets are there and in perfect working order, and if there are also inspectors of the Board of Works visiting them to ensure that the stations are in proper repair, it appears to be a direction in which some economy might be possible by combining the duties of these inspectors.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

There may be an economy, but I do not think it will be so great, because the duties are entirely distinct. The Board of Works are simply in charge of the maintenance of buildings, to see whether alterations are needed, and things of that sort. They inspect from that point of view. The inspectors and superintendents referred to in this instance are quite different types of people. It may be suggested that a Board of Works inspector going round for a particular object should have assigned to him other duties that are now carried out by these superintendents. That matter has been examined before, and the best division of work seemed to be that the Board of Works inspectors would look after their own side and that one man would go around dealing with the life-saving stations. I do not think much good would come from a change.

Major COOPER

Is there not a precisely similar parallel in the case of the Gárda Síochána? The Board of Works maintains the barracks in which the Gárda Síochána reside, and at the same time the inspectors and superintendents of the Gárda Síochána carry out the inspection of all the barracks and the staffs that occupy them. I do not think Deputy Lemass would go so far as to suggest that the Board of Works' inspectors should carry out the duties now assigned to the superintendents of the Gárda Síochána. As regards the service carried out by the life-saving department, the inspectors' duty is to see that the crews are properly trained, and they give them any advice that is necessary. The Board of Works, on the other hand, is simply responsible for the structural matters.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 4 May 1928