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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 May 1928

Vol. 23 No. 10

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE: - WOUNDING OF A PRISONER.

I gave notice that I would raise on the adjournment the question of the shooting of John Fenlon because the Minister did not give a satisfactory reply to my question asking whether he would provide adequate compensation for Fenlon. The Minister said that we were raising this and similar cases for propaganda purposes. We are raising these cases definitely with a view to proving the necessity for providing adequate compensation for all who are maimed on both sides during the Civil War and for the dependents of those who were killed on both sides. This is a statement signed by John Fenlon—I am not going to give the names of the officers of the Free State Army concerned—and witnessed by two of the prisoners who were present when Fenlon was shot in the barrack square. It can also be vouched for by a hundred other witnesses who were prisoners and by many members of the Free State Army, if they are approached. This is the statement:—

"I was arrested on November 23rd, 1922, at Newtown, County Carlow, by Lieutenant —— and about sixty soldiers. I was already wounded at the time of my arrest, my right hand having been shattered by a bomb a few days previously. The fact that I was wounded, however, did not save me from getting a brutal beating. I was beaten with the butts of rifles and was kicked around the road. One soldier hit me with a rifle and broke three of my teeth. While I lay on the ground Lieutenant —— raised a rifle and struck my wounded arm, causing the blood to flow. I was placed against a wall and shots were fired over my head. I was then taken to Carlow Military Barracks, but before going through the streets of Carlow I had to be washed, as I was caked with blood. I was brought before Brigadier-General ——, who told me I was going to be shot. Before being brought to my cell, I was again beaten in the presence of Brig.- General ——. Corporal —— struck me to the ground, and two soldiers kicked me while I lay on the ground. I was thrown into a cell next the guardroom. Every hour I was visited by officers. The following evening—or two days after my arrest—I heard a great commotion outside my cell, and Commandant ——, of ——, came in with Lieutenant —— and Sergeant- Major ——. I was told to get out on the square to run. I protested and said I was wounded and very ill. I was dragged out on the square, where I saw two rows of soldiers drawn up. They were the Wexford troops, as Carlow was the Divisional Headquarters at the time. I was paraded before the troops, and was told to get to the prisoners' compound. I had just entered the prisoners' compound when Sergeant-Major —— called me. He had a revolver in his hand. He asked me if I was the ‘One-handed ——,' and said ‘Take this.' He levelled the gun at me and fired three times. As I fell to the ground I saw another soldier running across the square with a machine-gun on his shoulder. He roared out to —— that he would finish the job, and rested the gun on the barbed wire. Commandant —— and Brigadier-General —— were present during all this. I lay in a pool of blood, and was annointed on the square by Rev. Father ——. I was later removed to the Curragh Military Hospital, where I remained for months. I have seven wounds—one on my shoulder, which has been open all the winter as a result of the treatment I received in Carlow Barracks, and which affects my bad arm. I also suffer from terrible headaches. Father —— will bear out the above statement. There were also present about one hundred prisoners who witnessed the scene on the square."

That is signed by John Fenlon and witnessed by Seamus Lillis, who is at present in Richmond Hospital, and who says that the above statement is true and accurate. It is also witnessed by Bill Tynan, Ballyclare, Co. Kildare, and by James O'Connell, Ballytore, Co. Kildare.

The Minister admitted that Fenlon was shot on the barrack square, but he denies that he is suffering as a result of these wounds. In this statement Fenlon declares that he is at present suffering from a bullet wound in his shoulder, which was one of the wounds caused by Sergt.-Major —— on the barrack square, when he was dragged out. It is the habit of the Minister, when questioned like this, simply to say that people like Fenlon were, as he calls it, fighting against the people. The records of this House—if this is a continuation of the Second Dáil which sat in April and May, 1922—will prove who fought against the people during the Civil War. When the question as to who fought for or against the people during the Civil War was being discussed here a few months ago the Minister was conspicuous by his absence. The Minister, when he wants to avoid a case—and it is the habit of other Ministers also, when they want to avoid any issue raised—simply starts to create a row about the Civil War. If it is granted that those who fought on the Republican side during the Civil War were wrong, what I want to impress on Deputies is that this policy of refusing to compensate people maimed on the Republican side during the Civil War and the dependents of people who were killed, is very bad national policy. We raise these cases in order to get Deputies to bring pressure upon the Government, if the present law will not allow them to make such compensation, to bring in a law which will permit them to provide compensation for such cases. We believe that it would be very sound national policy to do so.

The Deputy read out a statement by this man Fenlon which began, as far as I followed the Deputy. by saying that he was arrested on such a day—I think it was the wrong date actually. He goes on to detail certain alleged happenings inside the man's cell and also happenings on the barrack square. The Deputy read out the names of certain people who said that this was a correct statement. I do not think these people were present when he was arrested or that they were present in the cell; they were possibly present on the barrack square. In a careless way they say that this is a correct statement, not taking the trouble to see whether they were in a position to say that it was correct in all details. When they say that this is a correct statement they mean roughly that it is a correct statement of what happened on the barrack square. I make no secret of the facts, and nobody in this House or in the country deplores more than I do any unjustifiable or undefendable actions that may have been taken by men acting in the service of the State. I do deplore it absolutely—I do not pretend to defend anything of that nature. This House passed a resolution giving an amnesty which was of very much benefit to Fenlon and those who were along with him, and was in a lesser degree a benefit to certain people who had been in the service of the State and who were certainly due for punishment. That was the case. The Deputy raises this case with the obvious intention that this man should be compensated either by a pension or by a lump sum of money. The reason for this is that we are told that this man is now suffering from a physical disability, interfering with his earning capacity, as a result of the treatment he received. I do not believe, I may say plainly, all the details that are given. I do believe that a soldier shot this man when he was on the barrack square. I believe that, possibly, the man might have been more seriously wounded but that an officer ran out and by threatening to shoot the soldier saved the man's life possibly. He was then taken to hospital, and the soldier, I think, was put under arrest. That was in November, 1922. The man was in our custody, according to his own letters that I have up to at least November, 1923—he may have been in our custody longer. Anyway, his last letter that I have is dated November, 1923—that is a full year.

The wounds he received from the soldiers—wounds which I, less than anybody else, am prepared to justify—were healed within a fortnight. Prior to his arrest for waging war against the soldiers who were the comrades of the man who shot him a bomb he had for use against them exploded in his own hands. The arm was amputated and if I am correct, though it really does not matter about details, somewhere above the wrist. The wound was not properly healed and there was a medical description that seemed to show that the nerves were caught in with the bone and that he needed medical treatment. He repeatedly asked, in that year, for his release on the ground that he was suffering from disability. The disability really was that he was suffering from the effects of a wound caused by a bomb which exploded in his own hands and which injured him instead of the people whom he intended to injure. A fortnight after the wounds which he received from the shot were healed and he suffered no further trouble from these; but he had constant trouble from the wound caused by the bomb.

There was a suggestion that he should be taken to hospital and operated upon. He refused to allow himself to be treated in that way unless he was granted his release. I believe that it is possible the man is now seriously handicapped in his capacity for earning his living. It may be that he will require to have his arm amputated; it may be that he suffers still; but even so, all the evidence I have demonstrates clearly it was caused by a bomb exploding in his own hands. As a general matter of Government policy—the Deputy does not agree —we cannot accept the principle that we should compensate a man because a bomb exploded in his own hands instead of exploding against our soldiers. The Deputy could put up an argument in favour of compensation, but he cannot expect this Government to come to the Dáil with a proposition of taxation for that purpose. I regret that anybody is suffering from any incapacity, but here is a man, not in the service of the Government or of this State but of other people, and I am not in a position, and my conscience would not allow me —the Deputy may not think I have a conscience but that does not matter— my conscience would not permit me to recommend that the Irish people should be taxed to pay compensation to this man. I deplore the fact that he was wounded when a prisoner, and I am very happy to think that the wounds were not more serious than they were. I am proud to think that though one soldier behaved in an undefendable way, an officer stepped in and saved Fenlon's life. I deplore the fact that he suffered but he was cured of that wound within a fortnight. Now there is a proposition to use the fact that he was wounded to get him compensation either by a pension or by giving him a lump sum to make up for his lack of earning capacity which comes about solely through the explosion of a bomb in his own hands.

Nobody is trying to conceal the fact that John Fenlon was wounded by a bomb previous to his arrest. Even had Fenlon not been wounded by a soldier in an unjustifiable manner in the barrack square, I still maintain it would be good national policy for the Government to provide compensation for him. There is an additional argument that should weigh with the Government and it is this: They admit that Fenlon was wounded, as the Minister says, in an unjustifiable way. Fenlon makes the case that in addition to suffering from the loss of his hand from the accidental wound caused by himself, he is also suffering severely from wounds caused by a soldier in what the Minister admits to be an unjustifiable manner. He says that the wound has re-opened recently and what I want to know now is, will the Minister have John Fenlon examined by independent doctors and if they find that he is still suffering from wounds caused by a soldier in an unjustifiable manner, will he provide compensation for him?

I do not think any doctor could now say how the man was wounded, and no doctor is in a position to say whether any individual wound was from the one or the other. I have here a whole series of letters from this man. From reading them it is perfectly clear he was wounded and that there was a wound that would handicap him for the rest of his life and possibly in an increasing degree, and it is perfectly clear from the medical reports received and his own letters what the cause of the wound was. The Deputy talks about independent evidence. From what the Deputy read out, if he looks into it closely, he will find this is the type of statement upon which no reliance can be placed, although personally I believe there is a great deal of truth in it. But people vouch for statements of that kind without knowing whether they are correct or not.

The Minister holds no doctor could possibly say whether what Fenlon suffers from now was due to a particular wound or not. He seems to be very positive himself and wants to impress upon us all that Fenlon's trouble is due to one particular wound. I think the Minister ought to recognise that doctors would be in the position to know as much about this case, after examining the man, as the Minister does who has not examined him at all.

I disagree with the Deputy. I am speaking from an examination of him at that time and from statements at that time. If he was to be examined by a doctor now after a period of six years, the doctor would lack certain information that I possess, in the same way that I lack certain technical knowledge which the doctor would possess.

If there is an open wound from a bullet in his shoulder the doctor would not require much skill to see it.

Not to see it, but to say whether it was from a bullet or a bomb.

Can the Minister state whether the Medical Board did not examine men who received wounds as long ago as 1916 and got pensions?

But there was no conflict about the wounds in these cases. It was not a question as between one wound and another. The Deputy does not know what he is talking about.

I have, myself, given certificates to 1916 men in the last year.

Has the Deputy given a certificate that wound "A" was received from the accidental discharge of a bomb and that wound "B" was a wound inflicted by a bullet fired from the rifle of a soldier in the Crown Forces?

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m

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