Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Jun 1928

Vol. 24 No. 1

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 45—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION (RESUMED).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £116,012 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun Costaisí Oifig an Aire Oideachais, maraon le costas Riaracháin, Cigireachta, etc.

That a sum not exceeding £116,012 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education, including the cost of Administration, Inspection, etc.

TOMAS O DEIRG

Tar éis an méid cainnte do bhí againn iniú ar chúis na Gaedhilge, is dó liom go mba cheart chur síos ar cúpla ní san mheastachán so. Le sé bliana anuas—o cuireadh an Stát so ar bun—tá a lán daoine sa tír— chim cuid acu iniú ar an dtaobh eile den Tighe—agus níl siad sásta le polaisí an Rialtais chun Gaedhilge do chur i bhfeidhm i ngach uile shlí. Is dócha ná raibh siad sásta an cheist do chur dá plé annso. Nuair ná fuair siad sásadh annso, chuaidh siad amach fén dúthaigh agus bhí siad ag síor-chainnt ar na comhairlí puiblí agus á rádh nár cheart an méid sin airgid do chaitheamh ar mhúineadh na Gaedhilge agus a bhí á chaitheamh.

D'ainneoin a bhfuil ráidhte ag an Aire agus d'ainneoin an dul-ar-aghaidh atá déanta ag an teanga, nílimíd-ne, ar an dtaobh so den Tigh, sásta nach féidir a thuille do dhéanamh. Cuir i gcás ceist na leabhar agus ceist i dtaobh lón do thabhairt do scoláirí n-áiteacha bochta ar fud na tíre. Chó maith le sin, is dó liom go dtiocfadh leis an Aire níos mó do dhéanamh ar son cheoil Gaedhalaigh—go mór mór nuair a fheicimíd an méid feiseanna atá ann fá láthair ar fud na tire. Ba chóir don Aire níos mó do dhéanamh ar son cheoil na tíre ná mar tá gá dhéanamh aige.

Os rud é gurab é an cuspóir atá againn go mbeidh, i gcionn 20 no 40 bliain, gach duine atá ar scoil anois in án an Ghaedhilg do labhairt go flúirseach, ba chóir a thuille aire do thabhairt do stair aiteamhail agus ba chóir píosaí dramaíochta a chur ar an ardán agus saghas mór-shiubhal nó pageants a chur ar bun. Cuirfeadh na daoine óga níos mó suime in obair dá leithéid sin ná in obair ar bith eile, b'féidir.

Tá cúpla poinnte eile agam a ba mhaith liom a nochta. Nuair a bhí an t-Aire ag labhairt i dtosach dubhairt sé go raibh ceist an cheárd-oideachais gá scrúdú aige. B'féidir go mbeadh a thuille le rá aige mar gheall air sul a mbeidh an díospóireacht so thart. I dtuarasgabháil Choimisiún na Gaeltachta moladh ranganna leanúnacha do chur ar bun le haghaidh talmhaíochta, iasgaireacht agus déantúisí na háite do mhúineadh do na daoine óga. Thall i Sasana tá dlúth-bhaint—go mór mór sna hárd-ranganna—idir oideachas na ndaoine agus saol na ndaoine. Ní mar sin atá an sgéal againn-ne. B'féidir go mbeadh sé costasach ranganna leanúnacha do chur ar bun in gach uile áit ar dtúis ach b'fhéidir go mbeadh an t-Aire ábalta níos mó a dhéanamh chun dlúth-bhaint do chur ar bun idir saol na scoileanna agus saol na ndaoine.

Tchím o leabhairín beag go bhfuil, ins na ranganna is aoirde i bhfurmhór na scoileanna i Londuin, breis is cúig h-uaire a chluig tugtha d'ealadhain agus do chleachta oibre agus is dó liom gur féidir níos mó a dhéanamh annso chun dlúth-bhaint do chur ar bun idir teagase agus talmhaíochta agus cuntaisí feirmeóireachta i dtreo go mbeadh níos mó suime ag na daoine óga san tír agus go bhfanfadh siad annso—go mbeadh colus acu ar stair na tíre agus colas cruinn beacht acu ar dhéantúisí na tíre agus ar na céarda atá ar fáil acu annso. Tá beárna mhór idir na bun scoileanna agus na meadhon-scoileanna annos. Tá fhios ag an Aire ná raibh dlúth-bhaint idir saol na mbunscoileanna agus saol na ndaoine. Chó maith le sin, d'fhágadh an chuid is mó de na scoláirí an scoil tar éis an chúigiú ranga do shroichint agus go minic san nGaeltacht ní bhiodh scoláirí san scoil i rang ar bith níos aoirde ná an tríomhadh rang. Táim sásta go mbeidh feabhas ar sin faoi'n Acht atá i bhfeidhm anois. Mar sin fhéin, is dó liom go dtiocfadh leis an Aire níos mó do dhéanamh ar son na scoláirí san dhuthaigh. Cuir i gcás na scoláireachtaí. Tá a lán de na scoláireachtaí ó na bun-scoileanna go dtí na meadhon-scoileanna ag dul go dtí na scoileanna ins na cathracha agus ins na bailte móra. Is dó liom go mba cheart an scéim sin do leathnú amach agus scoláireachtaí do thabhairt do scoláirí na nGaeltachta agus do na scoileanna fén dúthaigh. I scoil fén dúthaigh ná fuil innte ach máistir amháin, ní féidir an traenáil chéana do thabhairt do na scoláirí agus is féidir do thabhairt i scoil mhóir i mbaile mhór. Ar an abhar san, is dó liom go mba cheart scoláireachtaí áirithe do thabhairt do na bun-scoileanna ar fud na tíre. Chó maith le sin, chun dlúth-bhaint do dhéanamh idir saol na ndaoine agus saol na scolairí, ba cheart scoileanna leanúnacha do chur ar bun. Nuair a fhágann na scoláirí na scoileanna ar a 14 bliana d'aois, tá an méid airgid a híocadh ar a son san beagnach caillte go minic.

Isé an rud is mó agus is bunúsaí in oideachas ná an scoláire a bheith ar scoil go dtí 14 bliana d'aois agus iad a choinneáil ar scoil éigin ina dhiaidh sin —scoil leanúnach nó scoil cheárdoideachis. Muna bhfuil scéim dé leithéid sin ann, ní féidir cose do chur ar imirce thar lear. Molaim don Aire ranganna nó scoileanna leanúnacha do chur ar bun agus scéim na scoláireachtaí do leathnú i dtreo go mbeidh seans ag na páistí ins na bun-scoileanna fén duthaigh dul go dtí na meadhon-scoileanna agus, chó maith le sin, scoláireachtaí do chur ar bun i scoileanna na gcéard. Ní dubhairt an t-Aire aon ní mar gheall ar athrú i scéim na scoláireachtaí atá i bhfeidhm fá láthair chun scoláireachtaí do thabhairt do scoláirí i scoileanna na gcéard. Nuair a thiocfas an cheist sin ós cóir na Dála, tá súil agam go mbeidh scéim ag an Aire chun scoláireachtaí do thabhairt ó na bun-scoileanna go dtí na meadhon-scoileanna agus go dtí scoileanna na gcé ard chomhmaith agus ó na meadhon-scoileanna go dtí an Ollscoil.

Dubhairt Teachtaí áirithe, nuair a bhí siad ag cainnt Dé hAoine annso, ná raibh siad sásta leis an gclár nua. Léighim litreacha sna bpáipéir anois agus arís á rá ná fuil na daoine atá á sgriobhadh sásta, d'ainneoin an méid atá sa chlár, le múineadh mathematice agus a leithéid agus ná fuil an múineadh chó maith agus mar tá sé i dtíortha eile. Tuigim go bhfuil an tAire chun Coláiste Oileamhain do chur ar bun i nGaillimh. Is maith liom go bhfuil an Aireacht chun daingniú do dhéanamh idir na coláistí Oileamhain agus an Ollscoil agus nuair a bheidheas sin déanta i nGaillimh tá súil agam go mbeidh có-oibreachas níos fearr idir na Coláistí-Ollscoile eile agus na coláistí Oileamhain.

Anois mar gheall ar na múinteoirí idirmeadhonacha, fuair gach Teachta leitir uatha sin agus tá fhios againn go léitir na nithe a theastuíonn uatha. Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá i dtaoibh na mban i dtosach. Tá an cúigiú cuid de na mnaibh atá atá ag teagasc i scoileanna an tSaorstáit nach bhfuil a fáil an bun-tuarastail atá leagtha síos le haghaidh na muinteóirí cláruighthe. Mar a bhfuil siad cláruithe féin, táid oilte agus teisteas aca agus ba chóir tuarastal ceart a thabhairt dóbtha. Tá siad ar fad beagnach tar éis cúrsa fada a dhéanamh i meadhonscoil agus tar éis ceithre bliana a thabhairt san Ollscoil ag baint amach céimeann agus teisteas oideachais.

D'aimhdheoin é sin níl siad a fagháil an tuarastail atá ag na Gárdaí Síochána féin. Tá £178 sa bhliain ag na Gárdaí agus níl ach £2 de dheifríocht idir sin agus bun-tuarastail na mban-mhúinteoir cláruithe—gan trácht ar na mnáibh nach bhfuil le fagháil an méid sin féin. Tá cléireigh agus chló-scríbhneoirí abhfad níos féarr as ná iad. Níl pinsean ná breiseanna sa bhliain ag an cúigiú cuid de na mnáibh nach bhfuil cláruithe mar tá ag lucht na StátSheirbhíse.

Níl aon phost seasta ag na múinteoirí seo. Tá aithne agam ar chuid aca seo agus cuireadh as a bpostanna iad, nuair a d'fhéil sé don bhainisteoir agus iad tar éis thar 15 ná 20 bliain a thabhairt ag teagase sa scoil. Ní féidir sin a dhéanamh i dTuaisceart na hEireann gan cead ón Rialtas. Tá súil agam go mbeidh sé mar sin annseo chó luath agus is féidir.

I dtaobh cheist na bpinsean, nuair a thiocfas an scéim os cóir na Dála tá súil agam go dtiurfaidh an tAire agus an tAire Airgid lán-chreidheamhaint do na múinteoirí as ucht a gcuid seirbhíse fada agus tá súil agam go mbeidh siad chó maith ar gach cuma faoi an scéim agus táid sa Bhreatain Mhóir. Ní féidir dul ar aghaidh le cúrsaí oideachais gan cóir agus congnamh o na múinteoirí féin agus táim ag fanacht leis an lá go mbeidh comhairle agus baramhail na múinteoirí ghá n-iarraidh agus ghá nglacadh ar chúrsaí oideachais.

Tá faitchios orm go bhfuil cuid de na scoileanna atá a fagháil deontais ar son teagasc na Gaedhilge nach bhfuil in dáiriribh agus nach bhfuilid ach ar nós cuma liom. Ba mhaith liom a fháil amach ón Aire cad iad na rialacha atá ag bainnt le deontaisí a thabhairt; an mó scoláire atá riachtanach i gcóir na deontaisí seo do thuille? Ba mhaith liom focal a chur isteach chó maith ar son na múinteoirí páirt-ama faoi na coistí Céard-Oideachais. Anois nuair a bhéas scéim an cheárd-oideachais ar fad dhá scrúdú ag an Aire tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh sé rud éigin chun iad a fheabhsú agus postaí seasta a fháil dóbhtha.

Professor ALTON

The remarks that I am going to make are in the nature of iteration of what was said before by certain others in this House. I would like to join those who for years have been pressing on the Ministry the claims of the secondary teachers for pensions. I realise that this Government has been the first that has done anything for the secondary teachers, and that their increment system was the first gleam of sunlight that struck that most deserving class of the teaching profession. I hope that the Government, or some future Government, will see their way to improve that increment scheme, to bring the increments in the Free State within favourable comparison with those that hold elsewhere. That I suppose is impossible at present, but, perhaps, the Minister might be able to do one thing: to interpret the arrangements or the scale that determines the number of recognised teachers, so as to ensure that every secondary teacher who is working whole-time at that task should receive an increment.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

resumed the Chair.

Professor ALTON

And while I am talking about increments I would urge the Minister to see that music teachers should be eligible for receiving increments. Though music is one of the approved subjects, the music teachers are, at present, excluded on the grounds that teaching must be class teaching. Of course, music is a subject that does not lend itself to class teaching. It is pre-eminently a case of individual teaching, but the work is just as arduous, and the subject is an approved subject, and it is of capital importance in the educational curriculum. The increment scheme is loose at both ends. I do not think, while the secondary school teacher has got a minimum salary fixed, he is, anyhow, sure of it. He has not got what he wants— security of tenure. He is still racked with the anxiety that always follows a man who does not know where he will get his bread and butter six months hence. The salary the secondary teacher gets will not allow him to make any provision for old age. The Government has promised and promised for some time a scheme of pensions. I do hope before we separate this summer that that scheme will be in being. The secondary teacher has waited long enough for it, and I hope it will be a fairly generous scheme. At the beginning it would cost very little. At the present moment there are teachers of 65 and indeed 70 years of age hanging on. They cannot be doing good work, and it would be just as well they should take their increments as pensions. If some scheme of that sort is initiated it would not for the first few years of working cost the Government very much.

In this scheme of pensions for secondary teachers, I hope the Minister will see his way to include the staffs of the training colleges. They are small in numbers. It would not be very costly to take them in, and they pre-eminently deserve some consideration. Until, I think, the year 1922 their salaries were very meagre. Indeed, I do not know yet, though I tried to get the information, whether the salaries they receive to-day are those recommended by the minute of the National Board of 1922. Perhaps the Minister could tell us whether that is so or not. but they are certainly deserving of the fullest consideration we can give them, and I think they should be brought into this pension scheme, and that that scheme should be rapidly established. In that connection, too, I hope the Minister will not lose sight of the fact that many of the professors in the training colleges were drawn from the ranks of the secondary teachers, and I hope he will be able to see his way to count as years of service those years they spent as secondary teachers.

I congratulate the Minister on the suggestion he threw out of filling the gaps in our educational system, of establishing post-primary curricula, linking up secondary and technical education, and developing the technical schools to the standard of the secondary schools. I certainly concur in his view that there is no reason why the technical schools should not give as fine a quality of education as the secondary schools. I congratulate him also on the reorganisation—perhaps that is the wrong word—on the new way that he is using the instruments at his hands—the inspectorate. He is not employing this staff to labour continually and ceaselessly on reports, and he thinks it is not necessary that every national school should be inspected formally every year, and that reports should be sent in on every school, and that the inspectors might be used to pay unofficial visits to the schools, and in a friendly way co-operate with the managers and teachers in the development of the school. I have often thought that if the Department of Education had a kind of supplementary inspectorate at their disposal, a class which it could send down as itinerant teachers with special lectures— lantern lectures—if necessary, especially in the distant schools, such men might throw a little colour into what must be at times a rather drab curriculum, and might stimulate the imagination of the students, and call forth that spark that often lights a man to great success in life. That perhaps is only a dream. But the Minister indulged in visions, I think, himself, and I was glad to see him doing it. But I do appeal again to the Minister to see that that pension scheme which was foreshadowed two years ago is in being before we break up this summer.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

I listened with very close attention to the very excellent, logical, commonsense exposition that the Minister for Education gave to the House, an exposition that was marked by an impartial review of the merits and of some of the demerits of the system. Various criticisms have been passed upon various items connected with education, such as meals for necessitous school children, better school equipment, better school accommodation, and things of that kind. To my mind, these are only minor considerations in comparison with an examination of the primary system of education itself. In a house of 150 Deputies, there was not one word of analysis, there was practically no word of criticism passed upon the system of primary education. We have in this House representatives of the great universities and of the teaching profession, and not one of these had a single critical remark to pass on the primary education that now exists.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

Is the Deputy winding up the debate?

Mr. BYRNE

Perhaps I may be anticipating what Deputy O'Connell has to say, but I think that the honour of winding up the debate rests with the Minister. What I have to do is to start at the bottom of the subject and endeavour to deal with something which up to the present has not been dealt with, and which in my humble opinion should have been dealt with. The question I want to ask the House is this: Is the system of primary education so flawless, are its results so satisfactory, that no criticism can be directed by any Deputy to the system itself? I am sure Deputy O'Connell will agree with me when I say that the real want to-day is the universal education of the masses. I suggest that that is the main principle upon which primary education rests— that upon the education of the masses depends the real and true development of the country. It has been said by one of the greatest authorities upon educational matters—Pestalozzi—that primary education is the chief weapon in the arsenal of the social reformer. To use the words of Pestalozzi—if I might quote them to some of the smiling Deputies—"The golden head of education touches the clouds, but popular or primary education, which should bear that head, has feet of clay." I suggest that these words are applicable in every detail to our system of primary education at present.

What is the actual position of primary education? Is it perfectly efficient—is it as efficient as it should be? Are its results productive of the satisfaction that parents of children, who are really interested in primary education, would expect from it? I would challenge some of the representatives of the Universities before this debate closes to say if the students who enter the Universities are generally sufficiently equipped and have reached a sufficiently high standard of education to avail of the advantages that University education confers. I have heard very frequent and bitter complaints made of some of the material that enters the Universities. I have heard some of the most eminent of University professors declare that a great deal of time had to be wasted upon rudimentary education in order to equip the student to go forward on his course.

I turn from the Universities to the technical schools, and would ask: what percentage of the pupils leaving the primary schools to-day are fitted to avail themselves of the benefits of technical education? What percentage of them are fit to pass the technical school examination? In support of that statement, I quote the words of the Minister for Education, who, in dealing with that particular aspect of the case, gave us facts which, to any Deputy who takes any interest in education, were facts of common knowledge. He said that children reaching the age of fourteen had not reached the sixth standard, and very often had only reached the third. The technical schools had to undertake a lot of strictly primary work, and he hoped that the School Attendance Act would rid the technical schools of that task. He went on to say that laissez faire methods might have been well enough a generation ago, but that these would have to go. These are words I have extracted from the Official Report of the Minister's speech. Did these words deserve no criticism at the hands of Deputies? I think that these admissions coming from so eminently fair a critic as the Minister call for serious attention. They are admissions that show—to put it in the mildest possible way—that the primary system of education to-day is not certainly what it ought to be. They go to show that its efficiency is not what it ought to be. After all, under the Education Vote, a sum of four and a half million pounds is being expended annually. I do not say that that sum is actually being spent upon primary education alone, but I suggest that the House has been voting for some years a sum of four and a half millions for the education of the youth of the country, and it is a matter of common knowledge that that four and a half million entails a considerable sacrifice on the part of the country. For that sum we should get the best return possible.

I venture to suggest, with all respect, that irregular school attendance is only a subsidiary cause, is only a minor cause, of the facts to which the Minister has drawn attention. I venture to go further, and say that if the Compulsory Act were functioning perfectly to-morrow, and you were getting a satisfactory attendance, you would still have the deplorable result to which the Minister has referred. I can inform the House that I have known of children going to school regularly from five to fourteen years of age, who were only in the fourth standard. I can even go further, and say that I have known children to go to school regularly, except in the case of sickness, from five to sixteen and seventeen years of age, and when they presented themselves for the elementary leaving certificate they hopelessly failed in the examination. What are the causes of these defects? Are they to be lightly passed over by the House? Are they not to be analysed? If they exist, is the attention of the House not to be drawn to them?

What percentage of the girls attending convent schools, when they present themselves for the junior leaving-certificate examination, are able to pass in mathematics? I would go further and ask what percentage of teachers who teach those children are qualified to teach mathematics? I have had wide experience of children going to some of the best institutions, institutions which bear a high name in the educational world and which have obtained very satisfactory results, but, after all, the percentage of satisfactory results to the percentage of failures is a sad thing for this House to contemplate. I ask the Minister frankly to tell us whether he is satisfied with the present system of primary education. I would ask him to tell us what methods exist to test the progress of children in primary schools from five to fourteen years of age. Take a lad going to an ordinary school. He gets from year to year what might be termed a superficial examination, a kind of class examination, which is entirely valueless. He goes on to the leaving-certificate stage, and then his parents discover that he is a complete failure. Is there no sacrifice to-day entailed on parents in these hard times of economic depression to feed, clothe, and educate children up to fifteen or sixteen years of age, and then find out that they are practically useless? Would it not be in the interests both of parents and children if there were some tests to ascertain at reasonable intervals the progress of children from primary to secondary standards?

I regret to say that I have very practical proof of the statements I have made in my own family. I do not wish to exaggerate the position of affairs, but I say that defects exist in the present system. I suggest to the Minister that if there is any alteration that should in his opinion be brought about, every thinking man in this House would be behind him in carrying it out. The Minister told the House facts which, in my view, are of outstanding importance. He told the House plainly that his Department does not educate the youth of the country, that it can stimulate and aim at uniformity in the educational system, but the education of the youth of the country ultimately rests in the hands of the teaching profession itself. We have been told by a representative of one of our great universities that some of the members of the teaching profession have already reached the age of sixty-five and, in some cases, seventy. How can satisfactory results be obtained from men at that period of their career? As I have already said, if the Minister has some proposals to make for improving the present primary system I ask him to let us know what they are. The results of that system are not satisfactory. If children go regularly to school for a number of years, and if, when they reach the age of fourteen, they are only in the third standard, what possible hope can there be either for them or for their parents? As I have said, these deplorable results are not due to lack of regular attendance, and, so far as I can see, the School Attendance Act will not remove this cancerous growth from the primary system.

If the Minister believes that the teachers are inefficient or that the system of control is something which it should not be, I suggest with all respect that he should inform the House in what respect the system is lacking, and in what way he would wish to have it improved. Anybody with experience of education on the Continent or across-Channel is aware that the system of education in this country is fifty years behind as compared with that of Great Britain, and a hundred years behind in comparison with that of the Continent. I suggest that perhaps the present system aims at doing too much. When I was at school the curriculum which I had to tackle was not half so vast as that which children have now to deal with. Perhaps the old story of the boy and the nuts is applicable to the present system. We may be attempting to grasp too much and we really grasp too little. Very simple requirements are necessary to give primary education to children. If our curriculum is too large we should attend to it, and, if it needs alteration, make the most drastic alterations if necessary. If teachers are inefficient—I do not care whether they are primary or secondary—they should make way in the interests of the State for those who are qualified to teach, and who can give good results to the country, which cannot afford to go on spending four and a half millions on the results which are obtained to-day. We were told by the Minister that that Vote will probably be on the increase. It certainly will not be on the decline. Are we receiving value for that four and a half millions? I suggest that we are not. If the Minister is of opinion that he has not got sufficient control in matters educational, and if he informs the House of that fact, or if there are any other remedies which in his experience would prove beneficial in wiping out the deplorable things which he brought to our notice, I would ask him frankly and in all sincerity to let this House know, and I feel sure it will stand behind him to the last man.

TOMAS O MAOLAIN

Tar éis an méid atá ráidhte ar an gceist seo ní gá mórán a rá anois. Ach tá cúpla poinnte gur mhaith liom iad do chur os cóir an Aire.

Ní dó liom gur féidir airgead do chaitheamh i slí níos fearr ná ar pháistí na tíre. Ant-aon rud gur ceart dúinn féachaint chuige—go gcaithfear an t-airgead sa tslí cheart, sa tslí as a mbeidh an tora is fearr. Dubhairt an Teachta Tomás O Deirg ná cuirtear go leór suime 'sa cheól Ghaedhalach ins na scoileanna. D'iarr sé ar an Aire a thuille aire do thabhairt don cheist seo mar gheall ar an méid feiseanna atá ar fud na tíre. Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis sin agus ba mhaith liom freagra d'fháil ón Aire go dtabharfadh sé cúntas caidé an meas atá ar an gceól Ghaedhalach ins na scoileanna. Ba mhaith liom geall a fháil uaidh go dtabharfadh sé congnamh agus cuidiú do mhúineadh cheóil Ghaedhalaigh ins na scoileanna.

Rínne an Teachta céanna tagairt do mhúinnteoirí i dTuaisceart na nEireann. Ní féidir múinteoir do chur as a scoil annsin gan cead ó'n Rialtas. Ní mar sin atá an sgéal anso. D'iarrfainn ar an Aire, mar a d'iarr an Teachta O Deirg air, suim a chur ins an gceist seo agus a theasbáint dúinn cionnus mar is féidir an cheist seo do shocrú. Mar gheall ar an gclár nua, is dó liom go bhfuil feabhas mór ar an gclár seachas agus a bhí sé bliain ó shoin. Níl le rá agam ach mola do thabhairt mar gheall ar an dul-ar-aghaidh ó fuaireamar an giota beag saoirse atá againn anois.

I should like to add to the references made already with regard to the provision of playing grounds for children. Deputy Sir James Craig at the start of the debate appealed to the Minister to consider that problem in all its aspects to see whether he could not devise some scheme whereby, especially in urban areas, suitable playing fields for children could be secured. Anybody who knows the towns in this country knows how absolutely impossible it is for children to take suitable recreation in the vicinity of schools without becoming a hindrance to the traffic, and will realise that is certainly a pressing question that should receive more attention from the Department than it has received up to the present. I would like to support Deputy Sir James Craig in that plea, and I trust that the Minister will find it possible to devise some scheme whereby these facilities can be given in the towns especially. The lack of suitable facilities for recreation does not apply so much to the rural areas, but certainly in urban districts, where the schools are in a cramped position, it would be a great boon to children if some system were adopted to facilitate them in that direction.

When Deputy Fahy was speaking the other evening he said that there was no oral test in Irish for the lower grades of the Civil Service. The Minister for Finance put in that there was now an oral test for junior clerkships. That is very welcome information, because last autumn, when there was an examination for female writing assistants between the ages of 16½ and 18½, there was no oral test in Irish. As this is one of the few examinations for which pupils of national schools can compete, it is very desirable that there should be an oral test in Irish so as to popularise the language in the schools. After all, if the children are given to understand that the mere reading and writing of the language in itself, or a book knowledge of it, will not get them anywhere in examinations, it is going to do a tremendous amount of good in popularising the language amongst the children as a spoken language. Between leaving school and going to work there is a tremendous gap, and if that gap is to be filled in any way it will be filled by insisting that in examinations such as these there shall be an oral test and in making the children get a thorough grasp of the spoken language. Perhaps the Minister would state in his reply whether the oral test has been extended to such examinations.

Deputy Professor Alton a few moments ago impressed upon the Minister the desirability of securing an itinerant teacher who would be able to use a cinema and lantern slides. I would like to support him in that plea because of the fact that in remote districts, such as in West Cork, an innovation of that nature would be valuable not alone from the educational point of view but would give the children an added interest in school. In other countries the cinema has been used for the teaching of different subjects, such as natural history, geography and history, and if it were found possible by some means to use lantern slides and cinemas it would be certain to have good results. If the Minister can find any means of doing it he will receive nothing but blessings, from the children especially, and from everybody who takes an interest in the development of education on modern lines also. There was a reference made, I think, by Deputy O'Reilly to the teaching of local history. That is a subject that has been neglected to some extent in most schools up to the present. As it is the basis upon which all good citizenship rests, and the foundation upon which children can get a good groundwork for learning the later stages of the country's history, I think more attention should be devoted to it, especially in view of the fact that there are no areas in Ireland which do not possess a fund of local interest which would serve as a groundwork for learning national history afterwards and for imparting to the children the traditions associated with each district. I hope more attention will be paid to this matter in the future because of its importance and because of the comparative neglect with which it has been treated up to the present.

Deputy Professor Tierney made a very eloquent plea for the provision of cheap or free text books, because the cost at present on the average father or mother is too high. Not alone that, but there is no standard series of text books, especially in Irish, and when children have to buy new text books each year, it is a practical impossibility for parents to provide their children with the requisite text books. Something should be done to provide children with text books. If a scheme cannot be formulated in that way, at least there could be a scheme for the standardisation of text books, and to supply and produce them more cheaply than at present. I hope consideration will be given to that when the Minister is replying. With regard to the suggestion of Deputy Fahy, that it would be advisable to enable county councils to give scholarships for training colleges, such scholars would remain in Ireland with consequent benefit to the country.

I think that such scholarships are particularly desirable in the case of local authorities administering portions of the Gaeltacht such as the county councils of Cork, Kerry, Tirconaill and Waterford. All agree that the Gaeltacht is an asset that must be preserved.

Professor O'SULLIVAN

Why do not the county councils give them?

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

They cannot give them.

Mr. MULLINS

My point is that if sanction or permission were given by the Education authorities to non-Gaeltacht county council areas like Wexford, such councils might find it possible to give two or three such scholarships in the Gaeltacht to deserving children. This is a matter on which the Minister will possibly give us some information in the course of his reply. There is one other thing to which I would like to refer while on the education Vote, and that is the grant to the Aisteoiri Gaedhilge—that is, the grant to the Irish players and to the Abbey players. I am in favour of such grants which have a national educational value. In this connection, a few words of criticism may not be out of place. So far as I can understand it anyhow, there seems to be no display of national sentiment in any of the plays so far produced under the auspices of these bodies.

Professor O'SULLIVAN

What bodies?

Mr. MULLINS

Na h-Aisteoiri Gaedhilge, the Abbey players, the body to which State assistance has been given. So far not a single word has been used which would run counter to the glowing tributes to this saoirse that we have. I do not think that a playwright should be hampered in his activities and in the production of plays. I do not suggest that the stage in the Abbey nowadays should be used for propaganda purposes or for revolutionary drama, but I do say that encouragement should be given on the system I have outlined, whereby plays of a national aspect could be produced, and not have them circumscribed by the confines of this freedom about which we hear so much.

I have nothing else to add to what the other Deputies have said, except, as I have said, that I wish to congratulate the Minister on the efficiency and progress of his Department during the past five years. I had an opportunity of looking at some history papers for an examination yesterday, and I must say in all honesty that there is 100 per cent. improvement in the subjects taken since I went to school, and that is not such a long time ago. I do not think there is anything else I could usefully add to the debate. I trust that the Minister will see his way to deal with the points raised by the different Deputies, particularly the point with regard to children's playgrounds raised by Deputy Sir James Craig.

Dr. WHITE

In what I have to say, I will be very brief. I have one or two ideas to put before the Minister. I do not know whether he will consider them brilliant or not. But I desire to bring them before him. I had intended putting down a question about the possibility of our having ten minutes of the time in the elementary schools devoted to what is called Swedish drill or physical drill. I do not mean military drill. In all countries, in Europe and America, the physical development of the child is looked to with as great attention as the mental development. I am not aware that physical drill or Swedish drill is practised as a routine in the elementary schools in Ireland. Any of us who take an interest in our people and who mingle with the children of the country, would be at once struck by the lack of deportment—or the "tout ensemble"—the general way in which they carry themselves. If this physical drill was included in the curriculum now, it would help to build them up physically. When the child is developed physically, it means that that child will grow into a strong man or woman. I would respectfully ask the Minister if it is at all possible to do this to mention it when he is summing up. Another point that struck me was this: could not the class-rooms in the elementary schools be utilised for the encouragement of Irish manufacture? The children of this country or for the matter of that, the man in the street, knows very little about what is manufactured in this country, when all is said and done. And if suitable brochures were published and suitable diagrams hung up in the class-room showing the treatment of the raw product, how the raw material is treated until it is turned into a manufactured article, I think we would be cherishing an interest in the minds of the children. I think you would have very important media here in which you might work.

Another point I would like to have information on—I am not sure whether Algebra and Euclid are taught in the elementary schools, but if they are, I think Euclid and Algebra should be made walk the plank and some subject or subjects of interest to the children taught, such as elementary biology or something about the minerals of Ireland. Ireland abounds in minerals, and it would be an encouragement and excite an interest in a subject that is capable of great development. Speaking as a medical man, I would say that when the weather permits there should be more outdoor classes every day where possible. The children in our elementary schools should be brought out beneath the greenwood tree, if they can find a tree, and let the class be conducted there. I know there are some Deputies who are connected with the teaching profession, and they may not agree with me in this matter. They may tell me that there are difficulties in the way. But we here in the Dáil know what it is when the atmosphere gets very hot on a warm day, and it must be a great deal hotter and closer in these elementary schools. I think when it is done in other countries, that there should not be any difficulty about it in Ireland. The teachers could take the children out into the open and teach them there. I merely want to congratulate the Minister for Education on the sound, solid statement he has made as regards education. We must all admit, as far as I can see anyway, speaking as a plain Irishman, that the education is all that could be desired. I do not take the pessimistic view that my colleague, Deputy Byrne, takes of elementary education, which is truly national. The Irish language, we are all agreed, is one of the sheet anchors of our nationality. It occupies the premier place. I have just merely put forward these few points, and I hope it is possible the Minister will take up some of them and put them into action if it is at all practicable.

Mr. G. WOLFE

We have arrived at this stage of the debate that it would be impossible to say anything new or anything very new. Deputy Alton has emphasised that. But there are some things that do not do any harm by being repeated and emphasised several times, and one of the things that impressed me most, and I have come in contact a good deal with it, is the very deplorable condition of some of the pensioned teachers, teachers who have retired on a starvation pension, a pension on which it is absolutely impossible to live.

I have been asked by several of them to bring their condition to the notice of the Dáil, and through the Dáil to the notice of the Minister. No doubt he is well aware of very many cases of that kind. I am sure Deputy O'Connell also would be. But there is certainly need for going into a good many of these cases, because their condition is deplorable in the extreme. There are, in fact, some labourers who are far better off than some of those teachers who have served their country and who did their work well in times that are now becoming ancient history.

The Minister will be glad to know how the Compulsory Education Act is working in the rural districts, I have no doubt. I suppose he has a very fair idea. I should like to tell him about the part of the country where I live. There seems to be a vast improvement in the attendance at school of the children. There is one thing, however, that I notice, and that is that the schools as they are at present arranged seem in many cases to be inconveniently placed. Some of them are too near to one another, and there are certain districts that have no schools at all. I am sure that in the school-building scheme that will come into force sooner or later this is a matter that will naturally engage the attention of the Minister, but at the same time I should like to emphasise the point now. In certain districts a drawback to the attendance of the children is the frightful distance that some small toddlers have to cover, in the winter time particularly. In fact, in many cases it is impossible for the youngsters to walk that distance and give the attention to the work that is required in order to obtain any knowledge that would afterwards be of use to them.

While on the subject of schools, I would like to ask the Minister if the new school he promised for Allenwood, near Robertstown, is making any progress towards erection. He promised that that matter would be seen to. It was a very pressing matter, and the Minister arranged to look into it. I should like to know if this school is being built. I hope also in the new schools that are going to be built there will be attention paid to play-grounds. There is nothing that would have a better effect on the physique of the children than having proper play-grounds. In England a great many of the schools have small gymnasiums, nothing elaborate, but such things as parallel bars, horizontal bars, clubs and so on. Those things are all to the good, and they have a very useful effect in keeping the children active and in engaging their attention in what is useful and healthy for them. I have not noticed those things in any of the schools here. They may be there, but I have not seen them. In England it is quite a common thing in the primary schools to see the children making use of those things. The children appreciate them, and no doubt they get a good deal of benefit from their practice. What Deputy White says about Swedish drill is, I am sure, very excellent advice, and it is carried out in many schools both in England and abroad.

I think also an extension of university lectures throughout the country would be an extremely good thing. It would make the winter less dull for the children if the subjects were interesting. They would be a great source of interest and instruction to the young people of the country, and many things that are not within their reach now would be brought to their knowledge by means of these lectures.

The suggestion that children should be taught the archæology of their own district is very valuable indeed. I think everybody ought to know the history of his own immediate neighbourhood. There is interest in every neighbourhood and in every county, and in that respect I am glad to see that most counties have an archæological society. I invite anybody who takes an interest in that subject to join the Co. Kildare Archæological Society, which is a very flourishing institution. If this subject is taught generally in the schools it will give the children an interest in things of the past, and will enable a lot of articles that are being destroyed through ignorance and want of understanding, things of great historical interest, to be saved, and it will prevent the wholesale destruction that has gone on throughout many parts of this country largely because of lack of knowledge.

I hope through the combined new instruction that is being given to the children in the schools, both mentally and physically, that a race will arise in our country that will hold for us high places in every part of the world, both from the point of view of physical fitness and intellectual ability.

Mr. HOGAN: (Clare)

What Deputy Wolfe stated at the outset is, I think, more true now than since he started speaking—that it is impossible to blaze a new trail through this Estimate. It has been canvassed from every angle, and I would like to look at it from another angle, if I could possibly find a new one. With the various criticisms that have been levelled at it, I am in the main in accord. I agree that some of the school buildings are deplorable, and that the sanitary conditions in some cases are indescribable.

What I want particularly to do is to focus the Minister's attention on another aspect of education. Deputy Anthony undertook to break the lance with what he described as university dons and Deputy Tierney essayed to defend them by telling us that the great trouble was in keeping the university dons out of public life. Most of us will agree that it is almost impossible to keep a good many of them out of public life. What they have brought into public life from the universities that is of value to public life is a matter that we might have a good deal of difference of opinion upon. That is the reason that I would like the Minister to give some consideration to the point as to whether the curricula in the constituent colleges or in the university are not responsible for something of that. What do the universities teach in the way of what might be described as social science? How are they at grips with the various real problems that face the country? What have professors who have entered public life contributed towards the solution of these various social problems that face the country? With two brilliant exceptions, possibly none of them has given anything in the matter of a contribution towards the solution of these problems. Have the universities ever considered the desirability, the necessity, of doing something in the matter of establishing professorships or lectureships or Chairs of Social Science in the universities? They are matters of vital concern to the people of this country, and matters of vital concern, indeed, to the people of every country. It may be argued, and I am sure will be, that the people who are interested in studying these social science matters are people who are not otherwise interested.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The University Colleges Vote is Vote 28, and is accounted for by the Minister for Finance. If the Deputy will look at the list on the Order Paper he will see that the present votes are for the Office of the Minister, for primary, secondary and technical education, for science and art, reformatories and National Gallery. It excludes from the Minister for Education university colleges, under which this would seem to arise, although whether the Minister for Finance, at any time, or any other Minister, could be blamed for the conduct of university professors in public life is another matter.

Mr. HOGAN

I am not saying that any Minister would be responsible for their contributions towards public life, but I am sure I would be entitled to say something about the remarks made by Deputy Tierney on the matter.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I agree. The question of universities would appear to arise under Vote 28.

Mr. HOGAN

I do not know that I want to make any further suggestion beyond this: that possibly it would be urged that these people who would be interested in the study of social problems are not by their general education fitted to take full advantage of anything like a university course, and that for any entrance examination for a series of lectures or a course of studies in a university they might be debarred on that account. I think, in matters of this kind, if it were necessary for them to proceed to a degree in social science or to get a diploma or a certificate, arrangements might be made so that the entrance or matriculation examination might be of a level that would enable them to take it without necessarily reducing the status of the university itself. I do not know that the universities have given any consideration to that. I know, and it is likely the Minister himself is very well acquainted with the arrangements that have been made across Channel between different colleges in such matters as social science and the various old universities in England. These matters are, I also understand, given attention elsewhere. I hope the Minister will not turn the thing down, and that he will not treat it as something of a fad or in the nature of an Utopian idea. I think it is something that is practicable, and that ought to be given consideration.

There is also the matter of extension lectures. I would like to know whether any consideration has been given to this, or whether such matters have been considered by the Minister. I do not know whether I will be again transgressing the rules of debate if I ask whether any consideration has been given to such an institution as possibly the London University stands for towards the whole United Kingdom as an examining body?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is a general question of policy, and more relevant than some of the details mentioned.

Mr. HOGAN

The Minister may say that such matters are not relevant, and that it is the contact with university life that gives the culture, polish, and finish. That may be true. There are many students throughout the country to whom the examinations would mark a stage in their progress, but at present they have no possibility of marking a stage. Examinations of that kind would prevent a dry rot setting in and discouraging people in their studies. I know scores of such people. We want something that would take the place of the old Royal University, or the place that the London University is taking. That would be useful to the country. Dropping from the high and mighty matters of the university down to primary matters, there is one matter to which, I think the Minister should give consideration, and that is the number of places which have been given to ordinary candidates for entrance to the training colleges. It has been suggested to me that it was only last autumn notice was given to a good many of these boys and girls, and they have suffered a great deal of hardship because of the few vacancies that are allotted. I ask the Minister to consider whether something might not be done this year in order to give these people greater facilities. Possibly, the matter may not be so difficult for the boys as the girls. A great deal of time has been spent, and some money, by these boys and girls who have been preparing for the entrance examination. It has been suggested to me that it is not exactly just that they should be cut out on such a short notice as has been given. I hope the Minister, if it is at all practicable, will make arrangements that will facilitate them, and give them a greater modicum of justice than has been given them up to the present.

SEAN T. O CEALLAIGH

Ba mhaith liom dhá cheist do chur ar an Aire. Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom eolas d'fháil ar conus atáthar ag dul chun cinn le Gaedhealú Ollscoile na Gaillimhe.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Ní dó liom go bhfuil an tAire freagarthach ina thaobh san; tagann san isteach fé Vóta 28.

SEAN T. O CEALLAIGH

Nach mbaineann sé le cúrsaí oideachais?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Baineann, ach ní har an Aire Oideachais atá freagarthacht na ceiste airithe seo. Is ar an Aire Airgid atá an fhreagar thacht.

SEAN T. O CEALLAIGH

Fágfad an cheist sin mar sin. An dara ceist a ba mhaith liom a thógáil, baineann sí leis an gCoiste atá i bhfeighil leabhar do sholáthar i gcóir na scoileanna, go h-áirithe i gcóir na meán-scoileanna. Is tuigthe dhom go bhfuil Coiste den tsaghas so ag obair agus is dó liom go bhfuil árd-obair á dhéanamh ag an gcoiste chéanna. Ach le déanaí cuireadh leabhar i gcóir scoileanna darb teideal "Fánaidhe" i gcló fé choimirce an Choiste. Ina dhiaidh sin tógadh ceist éigin i gcoinne an leabhair agus is tuigthe dhom gur tarraingeadh siar é. Is clos dom anois —b'fhéidir go ndaingneodh an tAire an scéal—gur hathruíodh an leabhar agus go bhfuil sé beartuithe é d'fhoillsiú aris.

Ba mhaith eolas d'fháil i dtaobh chostais chéad-fhoillsithe an leabhair agus cé an méid a cosnóidh sé an leabhar a chur ar an marga arís. Ba mhaith liom a rá go n-aontuím le Coiste den tsaghas so do bheith ann agus go n-aontuím leis an saghas oibre atá idir lámhaibh aige. Tá bearna mhór dá líona aige, sé sin, téacs-leabhair oiriúnacha sa Ghaedhilg do chur ar fáil do sna scoileanna.

DOMHNALL UA BUACHALLA

Cúpla focal, a Chinn Chomhairle, mar gheall ar na leabhraibh atá i n-úsáid sa scoileanna Náisiúnta de'n lá atá indiu ann. Is cuimhin liom nuair a bhíos i m'gharsúinín óg ag dul ar scoil i Muigh Nuadhat agus an fód móna úd fé m'ascail agam, go raibh leabhrín deas gleoidte i m'phóca agam; leabhrín a raibh a lán sceulta deasa fíanníochta ann. Ceann des na sceulta soin bhí tagairt ann do Sheáinín agus a thrucail, agus bhí sé de ghlan-mheabhair agam. Bhí port ag gabhail do, leis, mar seo, "Jack has got a cart, and can draw sand and clay in it"—port cosúil díreach le port an gealbhán buidhe. Ní raibh ins an leabhraibh scoile de'n aimsir sin aon tagairt do stair ne h-Éireann, aon rud a chuirfeadh i n-iúl dos na páistíbh go raibh tír fé leith acu, tír go mba chóir dóibh meas a bheith acu air agus bród a bheith acu aisti.

Ní fheadar anois bhfuil aon fheabhas ar na leabhraibh atá i n-úsáid sa scoileanna náisiúnta de'n lá andiu? Tá cuid díobh annso agam. Seo leabhrin —cómh-leabhair leis an cheann bhíos ag trácht air ó chianaibh—agus tá ár sean-chara, an t-asal, ann. Seo sceul díobh—"Tá asal agam sa bhaile. Tá ceithre cosa fé." Nach mór an ionghnadh é sin! "Tá dhá chluas air." Go bhfóiridh Dia orrainn! Dhá chluas ar asail! Shaoileas go mbfhéidir go mbeadh dhá eirbeall air, ach ní raibh. Níl focal sa leabhrín sin a bhaineas le h-Éire.

Seo leabhair a bhaineas le stair na h-Éireann—ó aimsir roimh Chríost go dtí 1922. Saghas leabhar nóta isea é a bhfuil adhbhar fiche leabhair ann agus a chuirfeadh seistean ar aoinne é léigheamh.

Seo leabhar eile, leabhar léighimh, agus an t-aon cheacht amháin a bhfuil trácht ar Éirinn ann, Cath Eachdhruim —Battle of Aughrim—tá sé i ndeire an leabhair, agus cé aige a bhfuil se scribhte, an dóigh libh? Ag an Tighearna mac Amhlaoibh—Macauley —agus do tógadh as "Stair Shasana" ag Mac Amhlaoidh é!

Tá a thuille leabhar díobh agam annso, agus ionta go léir níl aon rud a chuirfeadh sprid cheart Ghaodlach i gcroidhe dhuine, agus dar ndóigh, gan an sprid sin a bheith ionnainn ní bheidh bród againn as ár dtír, ní bheidh saoránaigh sa tír againn. Dubhairt Teachta go mba cheart stair áitiúil a bheith dá mhúineadh ins na scoileanna. Aontuighim leis sin. Tá i Muigh Nuadhat seana-chaisleán na nGearaltach agus dhá Chill-roilige an-aosta, agus is deimhin liom nach bhfuil beirt i Muigh Nuadhat, óg ná aosta, go bhfuil eolas ar ceachtar acu. Ba chóir go dtabharfaí na páisti amac go dtí na h-áiteacha soin, abair, lá amháin sa mhí, agus go gcuirfí a stair i gcéill dóibh. Ní fada go mbeadh fonn ortha eolus d'fhágháil ar stair na tíre ar fad, agus, as soin, ní fada go mbeadh bród acu as a dtír agus meas acu orthá féin. Annsoin iseadh go mbeadh fíorshaoranaigh tír-ghradhaigh sa tír, agus nach fearr a bheadh Éire dá bharr soin?

Mr. MAGUIRE

One matter which suggests itself to me is the position of some junior assistant mistresses. I have knowledge of very great hardship resulting from the treatment meted out to them, which I presume arises from the existing regulations. These girl teachers are subject to rigorous rules in the matter of attendance, their position being dependent upon the average attendance in the schools. From time to time it happens that the attendance goes down, with the result that these girls, in order to retain their position, keep on attending to their duties. I have known cases where such girls have not been paid a salary for a period of twelve months, although they have continued to teach. I am sure that these girls when they are teaching give good service. If they absented themselves from the school during that year, as they could have, I expect that the children would not have gone back to the school. As it was, the school regained its ordinary average and they were able to draw their salaries. I think that is an undue hardship to inflict on these people. In view of the fact that the average was merely a few below the standard required, and that it went up again to the required standard, it is unfair to deprive these girls of their salaries for the period in question.

As regards school buildings, particularly in the West, they are certainly very bad. I know there is a scheme by which new schools can be built. Some of the schools I have in mind are ninety years old and cannot be replaced, as it is impossible to raise locally one-third of the money. I was speaking to a manager in one of the congested areas in the West, and he told me that one of the schools under his control was condemned as unsuitable by the Department twenty years ago. Negotiations were begun with a view to erecting a new building, but it was found impossible to raise the portion of the capital required locally, with the result that that school is still in existence. I put it to the Minister and the House that if the economic conditions in a locality are such that the people are not able to put up the required quota for the erection of a new building, and if the building is unsuitable for a school, it is not fair to inflict on the children and teachers the extreme inconvenience and hardship that they sustain, physically and otherwise, in having to continue in such a school; that it would be only fair that this condition should be withdrawn in connection with new schools in the poorer areas and that the building should be undertaken by the State without any local assistance.

As to the heating arrangements, it is painful in some parts of the country to see little children going to school carrying sods of turf in their arms, which is the only means of heating the school. In some of the poorer areas the children are poorly clad, and have to travel two and three miles to school in the winter. As a result, they often get very wet and have to depend on the turf they bring to the school to dry their clothes. That is certainly very primitive, and the matter requires more attention than it has received. The fact that these children have to remain in school, under the conditions I have mentioned, and without a meal, is also an extreme hardship, and it does not show any great interest on the part of the legislative body here that some provision is not made for the better care of the children and for providing meals for them.

Mr. T. O'REILLY

I did not intend to speak on this Vote, but I cannot allow some of the allegations made by Deputy Byrne to go unchallenged. He spoke of children of fourteen having only reached the third or fourth standard, and attributed that to the system of education in vogue. I have some experience of teaching in primary schools, and I would answer the Deputy by saying that this condition of affairs cannot justly be laid at the door of the present system of education nor at the door of the teaching profession, but is due to the fact that God did not endow these children with sufficient brains to enable them to assimilate the instruction imparted to the classes in which they were enrolled. I would point out to Deputy Byrne that there are many children who, if they attended a primary school, or even a university, would not at that age have attained the proficiency requisite to enable them to pass the third standard. I should also like to suggest to the Minister that he should consider favourably the claims of the old "first-of-first-class" teachers, and I also suggest that Irish dancing should be encouraged in the schools.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

This is one of the largest Votes that comes before us for discussion. The discussion up to the present has ranged over a wide variety of subjects—it has in fact been difficult to keep it within reasonable bounds. I think we can classify our criticisms under three or four heads, such as administration, buildings, the attendance of the children and the training and qualifications of the teachers. We are labouring at a considerable disadvantage, and what is more important, those responsible for carrying on the work of education— the managers and teachers—are labouring under a great disadvantage, owing to the fact that since this Administration came into being in 1922, there has not been issued to the schools any edition of the rules. If a teacher or manager wishes to find out what the rules and regulations are on any given subject at present he has very great difficulty indeed. Men have come into the service during the past three or four years who have never seen a copy of the rules and regulations. Managers complain that they do not know what the rules and regulations are. As a result of that, teachers are appointed to positions, and in three weeks or a month, sometimes even longer, the manager and teacher are informed that the teacher is not qualified to accept that particular position. The teacher has left his former post, and it has been filled up.

This matter has been complained of year after year for the past three or four or five years, and while I can understand that at the beginning there would be some difficulty in compiling and co-ordinating the rules and adapting them to the new situation, still I maintain there is no possible excuse whatsoever for the delay which has taken place. Surely if there was real earnestness upon this matter of codifying the rules as they existed, that could be done inside a period of six months. That would be a reasonable time to do it. There is considerable inconvenience to teachers and managers in not knowing what the regulations of the Department are. There have been regulations issued from time to time in the past five years in the form of circulars. These circulars are sent to the managers and to the principal or head of the school. But managers change about and new managers are appointed, and they may never have seen these circulars. They come to the head of the school, they are filed away perhaps, and the assistant teachers may never see them. It is as important that they should see them, as it is that the headmaster should see them. The rules and regulations of the Department should be codified and issued in book form as they were under the old Commissioners of National Education. That should be done immediately.

That is the first criticism I offer and that is a matter entirely under the control of the Minister.

With regard to the question of inspection, as the Minister has said, a new system is about to be inaugurated, and, therefore, I am glad that he has listened to the criticism offered here from time to time with regard to the inspection system and taken the sensible step of setting up a committee to look into the whole question and devise a new system. That new system is about to be brought into operation on the 1st August and we must wait and see how it is going to function before any criticism can be offered. As the new system is going to be put into operation there is no use now offering any criticism of the system which will come to an end on the 31st of July.

I would like to say a word on the question of the inspectors generally, and perhaps some people may think it rather strange that I should say a word for inspectors. But I would like to put in a word for the inspector of national schools. I think he does not get as much freedom as he is entitled to get, that he is too much tied up with red-tape, that he has too many regulations, that he is tied too much to the apron strings of the office and has not sufficient independence in his own area. He should be regarded as I have often urged as a director of education for his particular area. He should not be expected to give an account of his doings, not only from one week to another but from one hour of the day to another, to the office in Dublin, where they are so full of that machine mind that they must have particular accounts of where every inspector is every hour of the day, every day of the week, and every week of the year. I do not think that is necessary. I think it hampers what ought to be the real work of the inspector.

I know many inspectors who work hard during the week, visiting schools, giving what help they can to the teachers and looking generally after the work of education. They have to sit down on a Saturday or a Sunday to write long and detailed accounts of very small matters indeed, to fill up numerous forms of one kind or another. I often compare the position of the national school inspector to that of the superintendent or inspector of police. The police inspector has his office and his staff to help him. The school inspector, who is at least as important to the community as the police inspector in any particular area, has to do all this official work himself. He has to write up elaborate and long reports giving accounts in all their details of his various inspections. I think much might be done there if the Minister and the chief officials of the Department would look into it to relieve inspectors of much of the work that they have to do at the present time and set them free to do what I regard as very much more important work, namely, the general direction of education in their particular areas.

There have been some recommendations made by the programme conference to which reference was made by Deputy Fahy, Deputy Mullins and others. One of those recommendations is that in connection with school books. I quite agree with much of what is said—that there is no regular standard of uniformity so far as our school books are concerned, and that applies especially to the books of the Irish language. The programme conference which sat a year or two ago drew special attention to that, and recommended to the Department the appointment of a permanent committee whose function it would be to supervise, and even to veto, books used, and to indicate the conditions in which new books will be sanctioned, and if necessary to take charge of the production of suitable ones. I do not know what became of that committee, or whether it has ever been set up. I have not seen any results from such a committee if it is in existence, but I do not believe there is such a committee.

Recommendations were made for the issuing of suitable maps of particular areas for the purposes of teaching local history. It is impossible, I believe, to find such maps at the present time.

It being nine o'clock and Private Members business being set down by order, the Committee decided to report progress.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.