Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 28 Jun 1928

Vol. 24 No. 12

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE. - A DUBLIN ARREST.

Mr. BOLAND

I have a different subject now to bring before the House but it is one which affects the vital liberties of the people of this State. Deputy Aiken—if he is a Deputy now; he may be an ex-Deputy for a week— and I asked the Ceann Comhairle to allow this question to be raised on private notice as it is a matter of vital importance and urgency and a matter affecting the liberties of the individual. It is the case of a gentleman well known both in Ireland and England and, in fact, on the Continent as a writer—Mr. Peadar O'Donnell—against whose life and health an unjust and a mean attempt is being made at the present moment. I asked the Minister the following question:—

To ask the Minister for Justice if he will state why Peadar O'Domhnall, of 39 Marlboro' Road, Dublin, was arrested to-day and released without any charge being preferred against him; if he will state the number of times during the last month Peadar O'Domhnall has been arrested and released in the same manner and what was the duration of his detention on each occasion, and also if he will state by whom instructions were issued for these arrests and the nature of the instructions.

The Minister had not time to make inquiries, but I do not think that in a matter of this sort he requires much time, seeing that the headquarters of the police are within a stone's throw of his own headquarters. The answer I got was:

As Mr. O'Donnell is believed to be in close association with certain criminal organisations he has frequently been arrested by the Gárda on suspicion of being in possession of documents relating to such organisations. Owing to the short notice I have received on this question I have not been able to obtain a complete report in this matter, but I have learned that O'Donnell was arrested on yesterday and detained for some time. I have no information as to the number of occasions on which he has been so arrested and detained. I do not propose to disclose the instructions which have been issued to the Gárda in any case of this nature.

The Minister did not propose to tell me the number of times on which Mr. O'Donnell was arrested, so that there is nothing left for me but to tell the Minister and the House. We admit that under the ordinary law a man against whom there is a criminal or any other charge is liable to be arrested and rightly so, but this is a case in which a man has been arrested fourteen times since the 24th April, and on almost every occasion he was searched. I will read a list of the occasions on which he was arrested. On Tuesday, 24th April, he was arrested at 7.45 p.m. and brought to Donnybrook police station and released at 11 p.m., after being searched. Apparently nothing incriminating was found on him. On Wednesday, 8th May, he was arrested at 7 p.m. and brought to Pearse Street and released at 11 p.m. On Wednesday, 6th June, he was arrested at 12 o'clock and brought to Pearse Street and released at 4 o'clock. On Thursday, 7th June, he was searched at Mullingar, not arrested apparently. On Friday, 8th June, he was arrested at Dungloe, Tirconnail, at 7 p.m. and released at 1 a.m. Upon all these occasions he was searched. On Saturday, 9th June, he was arrested at 10.30 a.m., and released at 3.30 p.m. after being searched. On the same day they called at 9 p.m. looking for him but he was not at home. On Sunday, 10th, he was held up and searched, but not detained. On Monday, 11th, he was arrested at Burtonport when arranging a boat for a picnic at 11.30 a.m., and released at 3.30 p.m. On Tuesday 12th, he was raided for but was not at home. The police patrol remained outside the house and were relieved openly. On Thursday, 14th June, on way to Dublin held up at Sligo. He refused to go to barracks unless carried and was allowed off, but was searched. On Sunday, 17th June, at Ennis, Co. Clare, he dodged the C.I.D. men. He was in company with Deputy Hogan.

Mr. P. HOGAN (Clare)

That is what saved him; he should keep with me always and he would be all right.

Mr. BOLAND

He could keep with a worse man. On Monday, 25th June, while driving home and dropping a friend en route, C.I.D. with guns "stuck up" car. On Wednesday, 27th June, he was arrested on tram car and brought to Lad Lane at 12.35, and released at 1.10 p.m. That brings me down to yesterday. Yesterday word came from Mr. O'Donnell's wife that her husband had been again arrested, and in order to have the evidence of our own eyes Deputies Derrig, Aiken and myself went to Lad Lane Police Station, and arrived about a minute later than Mr. O'Donnell, who had just gone in with a police officer. We questioned the sergeant-in-charge, and asked why Mr. O'Donnell had been arrested. He said that he did not know, and referred us to a Guard in civilian clothes. We asked this Guard had he a warrant for Mr. O'Donnell's arrest, and he said "No." We asked him had he any charge to prefer against him, and he said "No." We asked what were his instructions, and he said they were to arrest Mr. O'Donnell and detain him pending instructions from Superintendent Ennis. We asked him could we get in communication with Superintendent Ennis, and he said that Superintendent Ennis was not in. I may mention that that is a dodge of Superintendent Ennis — he is never in when Mr. O'Donnell is arrested, and does not arrive for about four hours afterwards. Then he turns up and O'Donnell is released. While we were on our way over to Pearse Street Station they were able to get in touch with Superintendent Ennis, so that when we arrived there we were informed that Mr. O'Donnell had again been released. We asked to see Superintendent Ennis, and were told that he was not in. Then we asked to see the officer in charge, but he would give no information. I suppose he would not be allowed, just like the Minister says he will not be. Mr. O'Donnell has been arrested practically every day. The practice has been to wait for instructions from Superintendent Ennis, who is generally out when O'Donnell is in. I do not mean to make a laugh of this, because it is a serious matter. The Minister belongs to that class of people who at all times stood for blind justice—strict law and order. He was never, I think, a member of any irregular band, and, therefore, although in other cases he was the wrong man to speak to concerning prisoners, in a matter of this kind I think he is about the best of the bunch over there. I put it to the Minister that a fundamental law has been broken, that the liberty of the subject is being interfered with in a grossly unfair manner, and that it is up to him to justify the conduct of his officers.

Mr. O'Donnell is believed to belong to a criminal organisation. We were told on many occasions here that all we ever could do was to say we believed things, to make an assertion and so on, and that there was no value in such things. Here we have an assertion from the responsible head of probably the most important Department of State— certainly it is a very important one to the ordinary individual if his liberty can be interfered with in this way— that Mr. O'Donnell is believed to be in close association with certain criminal organisations. I do not know of any country in the world where the authorities would persist in believing such a thing as that after having searched a man practically every day for two months, and finding nothing incriminating, in addition to raiding his house. The only interpretation I can put on it is that they simply want to break Mr. O'Donnell. He has a very strong spirit, but he has not a very strong body, and he looked very weak when I saw him yesterday. I think it is an outrage on civilisation that such a thing should be allowed and that the Minister should approve of it. We are all Irishmen, and I appeal to the decency of Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies to insist that there should be something proved against this man before they are allowed to take him and treat him like a dog as they are doing. This sort of thing was called the Cat and Mouse Act in England, but that Act applied only to persons who had been convicted and who were released and then arrested again. This man has not been tried. He is suspected of belonging to a criminal organisation. I may be suspected of something. I did belong to what some people, probably the Minister, considered a criminal organisation one time. Why am I not arrested and thrown in?

MINISTER for JUSTICE (Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney)

You mended your ways possibly.

Mr. BOLAND

Not a bit. Do not think that for a moment. The Minister, I suggest, has just got as much proof that Mr. O'Donnell is connected with a criminal organisation as that I am. Mr. O'Donnell writes for a newspaper, and his views are expressed in that newspaper. If there is anything wrong or criminal in those views, what are the courts doing? Mr. O'Donnell goes on platforms and makes speeches—everyone knows that he is going round the country speaking at meetings. Why is he not prosecuted for these speeches? Is there anything in them he could be prosecuted for? Not at all. He is trying, by both voice and pen, to resurrect the dormant spirit of manhood in the Irish people, and that is his big and only crime. I suggest that the Minister should take more pains with this case, that he should not flippantly tell me or other Deputies that he has nothing to add, and that he does not propose to disclose the instructions issued to the Gárda in any case of this nature. That is not sufficient information to give any responsible Deputy. I am speaking for the Fianna Fáil Party now, and, I believe, for some of the Labour Party, and I dare say for nearly half the people of Ireland. I am sure that even the hearts of some of the Deputies opposite will be touched by this treatment of a man of the character of Peadar O'Donnell.

Mr. MOORE

As one who is very proud to enjoy the friendship of Peadar O'Donnell I want to add one or two words to what Deputy Boland has said. As far as I can learn as one who is almost in daily intercourse with Peadar O'Donnell the dominating feature of his life is his love of the fishermen and the peasants of Ireland not merely of the Free State fishermen. He has won fame for Ireland by his works of fiction and by his work as an artist and it seems to me an extraordinary thing and a disgrace to the Dáil and the country that a man like that should be persecuted. I have seen him as frequently as any man in the past two months. His whole talk is of help for the fishermen and the peasant farmers of Ireland, trying to give them a chance, and to establish them in the country as the dominant force. If that is an evil thing to do and a wrong thing to do then the Minister for Justice is quite justified in pursuing him as he does. If it is a good thing to love the peasantry and to try and serve them, and if it is a good thing to attract the attention of the world to their suffering and their virtues, then I suggest that the action of the Minister for Justice in pursuing him is a very evil thing. I would be surprised if Deputies on the other side of the House would support the Minister for Justice in the action he has taken. I think it should not go without mention that when there were not many to serve Ireland, when people who were prepared to run grave risks in the service of Ireland were not many, not merely Peadar O'Donnell but Mrs. O'Donnell was the very valued friend of those in power to-day and that should not be forgotten.

Mr. MacENTEE

Before the Minister replies I want to put this case without any rhetoric before the House. Peadar O'Donnell has been arrested twelve times because it was believed that he was in close relationship with certain criminal organisations. He has been arrested twelve times on suspicion; he has been searched on most of those occasions and yet not once was there found anything on him to substantiate the belief which the Minister offers for this outrageous proceeding. I ask any Deputy in the House—I do not care where he sits—is that justifiable and is he prepared to allow the Minister to justify it in this House?

Mr. DE VALERA

I would like to ask the Minister for Justice, very definitely, whether it is with his approval that this line of conduct is carried on by the Gárda; whether he definitely stands for this sort of thing. Under what Act or what authority, either executive authority from himself, or general authority, are the Gárda acting in this way? Some of us know the methods the British tried when they wanted to drive Tom Clarke out of this country. They said they were going to drive him out and persecuted him so that he could not have a moment he could call his own. He was under constant surveillance. Are these the methods which the Executive are going to employ in driving out men who love their country and whose only crime is that they love their country? I see no justification whatever for that line of conduct. It is the same sort of thing as the judge has complained of. I suppose we will be told that the judge's statements are mere obiter dicta and count for nothing.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Has anything which the Justice said been spoken about this man, Mr. O'Donnell? Has it had anything to do with the question of the arrest of Mr. O'Donnell? I respectfully submit it is not in order.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is it connected with the O'Donnell case? This is a specific case.

Mr. DE VALERA

I am asking the Minister is he going to exercise more supervision than apparently he has been doing, or whether he stands for these acts of the Gárda which are in line with the conduct that brought a reprimand from a judge not merely a week ago, but also such as is to be found in this evening's paper in regard to a similar case.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Does the Deputy suggest that it has anything to do with Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. DE VALERA

It has.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I do not think that really it has.

Mr. DE VALERA

The only reason I mentioned it was to try and get from the Minister whether the Gárda is acting directly under his authority. Whether that is the policy he stands for? Whether in the case of Peadar O'Donnell the same policy is being worked out? As an example of the same thing, I may say that Deputy Houlihan was arrested in his own constituency. He was held up by a C.I.D. man in plain clothes a week or two ago. Is there to be any limit to the interference with the individual's freedom in this country?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

We heard a good deal of rhetoric, as Deputy MacEntee described it, to-night upon this subject. Deputy Moore has spoken a great deal about Mr. O'Donnell's love of the fishermen and peasants of Ireland. I have heard a certain amount about his literary abilities and things of that kind. It is not, and Deputies know it is not, because he is an eminent writer, it is not because of whom he married, it is not because of his love of the fishermen and the peasants of Ireland that the action of which Deputies complain has been taken.

Mr. MacENTEE

He was arrested twelve times.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Deputy de Valera has asked me certain questions. I may not be able to go into the specific facts of the case fully in answer to Deputy Boland, still, as Deputy de Valera is leader of the Party I will deal with his queries first.

Mr. G. BOLAND

That is right.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

The attitude which is taken up by the Gárda Síochána towards Mr. O'Donnell is this: that it is the duty of the Gárda to prevent crime in this country. It is a necessary thing for this country, for the welfare and advancement of this country that crime should be detected and that persons who have committed crime should be convicted and punished; punished in order that they themselves may be reformed and punished also in order that other persons may be deterred from following in their footsteps——

Mr. DERRIG

Get on to the case.

Dr. RYAN

He is quoting Hamar Greenwood.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

—it is more than that, it is the duty of the Gárda to prevent the carrying out of crime, and if there is a person, and if they have reasonable grounds of suspicion that that person is engaged in criminal activities, and is associated with other persons who are engaged in criminal activities it is the duty of the Gárda to prevent those criminal wishes being translated into actual acts of crime——

Mr. DERRIG

I should like to ask the Minister a question.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Minister has been asked questions for the last twenty minutes and he should be now given some opportunity to reply to them.

Mr. DERRIG

This is important. This is an important question. He says the Gárda are endeavouring to detect crime. The Gárda themselves have admitted to Mr. O'Donnell that the deliberate purpose of this procedure is to break down his health and that there is no question of detecting crime at all. This is the settled policy that is to be carried out against him.

Mr. GERALD BOLAND

And I might also add that it is most distasteful to the Gárda themselves, and some of them have actually told Mr. O'Donnell not to say that they have seen him.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

These statements are only now coming out. It is rather curious they were not mentioned in the opening statement of the case. It is not the design of the Gárda to break down Mr. O'Donnell in health.

Mr. DERRIG

They are only carrying out your orders.

Mr. COONEY

It is the design of your Department.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

It is not the design of any person to break down Mr. O'Donnell in health, and there is nothing which has been stated here which suggests in any way that Mr. O'Donnell's health could be injured. We know that Deputy Boland, in what Deputy MacEntee described as rhetoric, stated that Mr. O'Donnell was treated like a dog. No violence has been used, no violence is alleged to have been used, and no matter how delicate his constitution may be—if he has a delicate constitution—no matter how delicate that gentleman's constitution may be, I do not see how the searching of him or even the detention of him in a barrack is injurious to his health——

Mr. LITTLE

Which Act is he arrested under?

Dr. TUBRIDY

Will the Minister cease talking humbug.

Mr. FITZGERALD - KENNEY

While I am on one line of country I am to be immediately asked to go off over another.

Mr. MacENTEE

Running for cover.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Now Deputy Little wants me to go over another line of country.

Mr. G. BOLAND

Do not take up the time of the Minister, for heaven's sake. Let him answer.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

It is the duty of the Gárda, when they have reasonable grounds of suspicion, to arrest and search persons against whom they have reasonable grounds of suspicion.

Dr. RYAN

Under what Act?

Mr. FITZGERALD - KENNEY

Under the common law.

Dr. TUBRIDY

The very common law.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Yes, as common as can be; the ordinary, every-day law, which is acted upon everywhere.

Mr. KILLILEA

The unwritten law.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Yes, the Deputy is quite correct, a completely unwritten law — the old common law.

Mr. G. BOLAND

Give him a chance to finish.

Mr. FITZGERALD - KENNEY

Deputy Boland has said that Mr. O'Donnell was arrested on a great number of occasions. I know he was arrested on several occasions. As to whether Deputy Boland's figures are accurate or whether they are not accurate, I do not know. I express no opinion upon them. As Deputy Boland knows, I was given no time to acquire accurate information upon this matter. I received no notice until 5 o'clock yesterday afternoon.

Mr. G. BOLAND

Will you give way for a moment? Do you suggest that you had not ample time between 5 o'clock yesterday and 10 o'clock this evening to find out from Brunswick Street Headquarters whether these statements were accurate or not Surely the Minister does not suggest that?

Dr. RYAN

He would suggest anything.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I am not given to suggesting. I am given to straight speaking, if I might say so, and what I am making is not a suggestion but a simple, plain statement of fact. I have not had time to get full particulars of the number of times on which the Deputy was arrested, as a matter of fact.

Mr. DERRIG

Why do you say violence was not used against Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I was given the papers at 5 o'clock yesterday afternoon. I got into touch with my office and my office got into touch with the Headquarters on some of these cases, at any rate, which the Deputy has read out. Take, for instance, the picnic in Dungloe——

Mr. G. BOLAND

But you have a telephone.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

It is not possible immediately to get in touch with what happens in Donegal.

Mr. G. BOLAND

What about Heffernan's telephone Department? Surely they could do it?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

In these matters I wish to get full particulars in writing and, as I told the Deputy, I did not get that opportunity. If the Deputy had given the three days' ordinary notice I might have been able to have done so. But I do not think, as a matter of fact, that whether it was five times or six times or ten times that this has happened is really of the substance of the thing. What is the substance of this matter is this—that the Gárda when they consider that a man is dangerous—and they are satisfied that this man is a dangerous man—they are satisfied that this man was associating with those persons who are endeavouring by criminal means to injure this State and to injure the citizens of this State——

Mr. LEMASS

Then why is he not charged?

Dr. RYAN

Is that the I.R.B.?

Mr COONEY

Why are not the Deputies here charged?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Because the Gárda are satisfied that he is associating with those persons, they are determined that he will not be allowed unchecked, unhampered and unhindered to carry out his criminal activities. I have been asked in the Dáil by Deputy de Valera if I stand for the actions of the Gárda in preventing this gentleman indulging in criminal activities and I answer clearly, definitely, and affirmatively that I do.

Mr. LEMASS

Will the Minister repeat that statement outside and give Mr. O'Donnell a chance of defending himself? Will the Minister repeat it where he will not have the protection of the Dáil?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

Which statement?

Mr. LEMASS

That Mr. O'Donnell was engaged in criminal activities. That is a libel on Mr. O'Donnell.

Mr. SMITH

Why do you not take him to court and prove it? You are wriggling there for the last fifteen minutes trying to twist the whole thing.

Mr. CARNEY

Will the Minister state what central authority issued orders to the Gárda in places so widely separated as Burtonport and Mullingar to have Mr. O'Donnell arrested and searched?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

No, sir.

Mr. SMITH

Do you intend to continue the policy of following up this man without any justification?

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

I think I stated my attitude clearly, and it should be clear to the Deputy.

Mr. SMITH

You have been twisting there for the last fifteen minutes and you have answered no question.

Mr. CARNEY

That is because justice is blind, figuratively and literally.

Mr. G. BOLAND

Seeing that this man has been searched on about twelve occasions, picked up at random and searched and no incriminating documents found on him at all, does the Minister still allege that Mr. O'Donnell is engaged in criminal proceedings, and if he does allege that why has he not produced some evidence and arrested him? He has another method of persecuting people in Mountjoy. He has two men for the last eight months——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Minister should be allowed to answer.

Dr. RYAN

He can beat them like Gilmore if he likes.

Mr. FITZGERALD-KENNEY

My answer to Deputy Boland's question is this: Deputy Boland is quite correct when he says that no incriminating documents have been found on Mr. O'Donnell, but the Deputy must also bear in mind that the possession of incriminating documents is not the sole class of evidence which is at the disposal of the Gárda and that there is other evidence.

Mr. MacENTEE

Why not produce it in court?

Mr. LITTLE

What is the crime?

Dr. RYAN

Hamar Greenwood!

The House adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, July 4th.