Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 1928

Vol. 27 No. 1

PRIVATE DEPUTIES' BUSINESS. - THE ADJOURNMENT—ECONOMIC CONDITIONS IN MAYO.

When I put down a question for to-day to the Minister for Finance, I did not think there would be any necessity to raise the matter on the adjournment. I would have much preferred if the Minister, instead of evading the question I put to him, had made some effort to give a reply which, if not satisfactory, would have proved to me that he had at least considered the state of affairs which exists in County Mayo. A short time ago a resolution was passed unanimously by the Mayo County Council drawing attention to the state of affairs in that county and appealing to the Government to take some steps to remedy the conditions there. I was surprised when the Minister for Finance informed me to-day that the Government — or the Minister at least — had not received any intimation as to that resolution. I understood that the chairman of the county council, who sits on the opposite Benches, had made it his duty — as I think it was — to communicate that resolution to the Government Party or to the Executive Council. I thought that that resolution had been placed in the hands of the Government and that they would make some effort to deal with the matter. I find that they plead ignorance of the matter. In his reply to me to-day, regarding the demand for some relief in the County Mayo, the Minister referred me to a reply given on the 10th October last, when he said that the sum of £32,000 voted in the current year's Estimates for the completion of works unfinished on 31st March last had been spent and that it was not proposed to make further provision for relief schemes this year, as any such provision would entail the presentation, at the same time, of proposals to the Dáil for the raising of an equal sum by the imposition of fresh taxation. That reply, of course, is quite good enough for the Government to give, but if they really understood the position in the country to-day, and if they really understood the position as it is in the County Mayo, which I deem it my duty as one of the county representatives to give a short account of, I think they would face up to the facts more seriously. I have made it my business to go around the County Mayo, not to inquire about things which I wanted to talk about or in respect of which I wanted to make complaints, but simply to find out the position as it is. I found that from the extreme end of the county, from Kilmovee to the coast of Erris, there was extreme poverty. I was told that by responsible people in every parish. I was asked by them to try, with the other Deputies, to make the Deputies on the Government Benches and the Government realise the seriousness of the matter and see if anything could be done to provide a remedy during the coming months.

The flooding this year in Mayo was commented upon by the County Council, and it was brought to the notice of the Government that flooding took place this year to a greater extent than in the previous year, with the result that crops are seriously damaged in the county. In the Erris area, there was flooding which caused very serious harm in the district, and I forwarded particulars to a certain Department. The same thing has happened in parts of East Mayo and, perhaps, throughout the whole county. I think if the Government were in earnest they would, regardless of the Drainage Acts which empower county councils to take up drainage schemes, initiate, through the Public Works Department or through the Land Commission, some schemes of drainage or other works that would repay the money spent on them and which could be carried on during the winter or spring months. The County Council, in the resolution they passed, pointed out that the potato crop in Mayo has suffered very seriously owing to flooding and other causes. There was a very bad harvest in parts of the county, I was informed of that and I saw that it was a fact. Then you have, as a rule, thousands of migratory labourers going over to England from the county every year. They had a very bad season this year, and they came back not as flush in cash as they used to be. The fishing industry in Mayo, as the Minister for Fisheries knows, is practically a dead letter. After the unfortunate disaster of a year ago, I thought the Minister would have taken some steps to put that industry on its feet or to see to the welfare of the fishermen who have to fight the waves in order to get a livelihood. I thought he would, at least, have established some local industries when the matter was brought so forcibly to his notice by the disaster of last year. It was a sad thing last year when County Mayo had to send out appeals for charity to the whole world for the fishermen of Mayo and the people who suffered as a result of that disaster. These appeals were made to charitable people all over the world, so that these people might be enabled to live. And after that has been done, we feel ashamed of the position of the fishermen of County Mayo. This year they are in a serious position. That is not confined to the fishermen this year, as hardship exists amongst a great element of the population. We had hoped that local industries which had been set up would be fostered by the new Department which is to look after the Gaeltacht, but while those concerned have been deliberating about what they should do those local industries have been dying out. In one parish in Erris you have machinery lying idle, while a promise was given by the Government some years ago that extra engines would be provided so that that machinery might be set working and provide employment. I mention these facts to show that when I speak of relief schemes for County Mayo I am not talking of anything that might be described as "doles."

There are schemes actually there that could be made operative by a sympathetic Government. They might not be called relief schemes, perhaps, but they are schemes that would give a very good return for the money expended on them. I suppose what I have said about the County Mayo could be said about nearly every other county. The Government seem, however, not to realise that there is necessity to take the ordinary people into consideration, as we unfortunately know in the County Mayo. Some years ago, the Congested Districts Board used to expend a lot of money in works of different kinds in the congested areas. At present there is not a single penny being expended by the body that has replaced the Congested Districts Board. The only reply we can get from the Land Commission is that estates which are in their hands in every part of the county for fifteen years are receiving attention.

To what estates does the Deputy refer?

The Brabazon estate.

That is not in hands fifteen years. That is one of the estates which came in in recent years.

You have estates in Erris which came to the Land Commission from the Congested Districts Board and which are in hands fifteen years.

I am not aware of any estates in Mayo which are in hands fifteen years.

I am aware of estates in Mayo that are in hands over fifteen years.

I beg to remind the Parliamentary Secretary that, in answering a question of mine the other day, he referred to an estate being in the hands of the Congested Districts Board and the Land Commission for about twenty-one years.

I think it was last week the question was answered.

I know that there are estates in the hands of the Land Commission for over twelve years. The work that used to be carried out by the Congested Districts Board in improving estates, in improving and making bog roads, and in carrying out small drainage schemes is not being done by the Land Commission. Those are some of the things I have in mind when I speak of "relief schemes." If the Government were in earnest, expenditure on schemes like those would be well repaid, and they should be carried out by the Land Commission or the Board of Works or some other Department. The Minister for Local Government and Public Health seems to think, by his expression, that it is quite all right to talk and make speeches about those things and have an evasive reply given by the Government — that the whole thing must pass with that. We were told that the Government knows nothing about resolutions passed by Mayo County Council regarding the poverty existing in that county or about demands for grants of some kind. But the Minister for Local Government and Public Health seemed to know very well the position of other elements in County Mayo, when instructions were sent out from his Department that doctors in County Mayo were to be given a large increase in salary. I do not say that dispensary doctors should not get a decent salary, but you have the Government attending to the wants of certain people who are very well off at present — far better off than the ordinary people who have to pay their rates and taxes. The Government are taking an interest in these people and are seeing that salaried officials get increases at the present time, and when an appeal is made to them in the interest of the ordinary taxpayer, I think it should not be dealt with in a sneering manner by any Minister.

I do not want to go over the whole state of affairs that exists in the county. I think it is rather a degrading thing to have to turn round and place before the Government the position that exists in any single county in the Free State. The Government should know the facts without being told about them here. The Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies, who do not think it worth their while to be present when this question is being discussed, even though they are members of Mayo Council, should in common decency have put the matter before the Government before this. I do not want to go over the whole position, but I would like the Minister to tell me if there is or is not necessity for some action to be taken, not alone in County Mayo, but in every county. If the Minister proves to me that there is no such thing as poverty in any county in the Saorstát, then we can perhaps go on in the grand, luxurious way that we are doing at present.

On the other hand, if he admits that there is necessity for the Government to provide relief works of some kind, then we will all be inclined to give sympathetic assistance to the Government in formulating schemes which will provide employment and, at the same time, give a return for the money expended. It is probably well to remind the Minister that when the relief Vote of £200,000 was passed last year there were appeals from County Mayo for different classes of works which amounted almost to that £200,000, and there was only expended in the county a sum of £4,000. In March last the Mayo County Council, under the chairmanship of Mr. Davis, who is a member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, passed a resolution asking for an increase of the road grant to Mayo. Last year there was £12,000 given in road grant to the county, and this year there is only £8,000 given, while there is over £17,000 given to a neighbouring county.

We have a reduction in the amount that is granted by the Central Authority to counties like Mayo in the Gaeltacht, and at the same time we have increases voted in the Dáil for expenditure on the Governor-General's establishment. We had every single member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party voting £1,000 extra to the Governor-General for a new motor car this year. We had increases of Army pensions voted of £40,000, as compared with last year, and an increase of District Court charges of £34,000. We had every member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party voting for an increased subsidy of over £8,000 for the sugar beet factory and, at the same time, we find in the Estimates £118,000 less for relief schemes than was provided last year. I think it is about time that some action was taken by Deputies, no matter what their political views may be, to open the eyes of the Government to the existing circumstances. One would think by the way questions regarding the condition of the people are answered here that we were simply living in a gold mine. It is quite all right for us to vote £1,000 extra, or thousands of pounds extra, to a Government Department, and at the same time to send the bailiff down the country to the people who are not able to provide these sums. When we make a demand for relief schemes, having the backing of what I might call a Cumann na nGaedheal County Council, we are sneered at in this House and told there is no need for relief schemes in any county. We have, it is said, got round the corner that we have so often heard about from the President. In fact, I think we have got round so many corners that we are almost back where we started from. I do not want the Minister, in replying, to tell me that if relief schemes are embarked upon they will mean extra taxation. There was no such talk of extra taxation when we voted increases in respect of the Governor-General's establishment. I want the Minister simply to inform me whether there is need, in a county like Mayo or other counties similarly placed, for relief works of an economic character — drainage work, for example — to be carried out during the coming months. If the Minister denies that there is such a necessity, I should like to know where he gets his proof from. On the other hand, if he admits that there is need for schemes of an economic character, and if the Government are prepared to face the matter fairly and squarely they will get all the co-operation that can be given by parties in this House.

There are many things which I could suggest for County Mayo and which if embarked upon would well repay the Government. If the Minister wants any solid schemes put forward by this Party or any other party, we can prove to him that there are economic works which could be carried out. I do not want the whole matter to be brushed aside as if everything was going on all right. I want the matter to be faced in a decent manner by the Government. If they do that, they will be simply doing their duty and nothing else. I should like the Minister to deal with some of the points I raised. If there is any doubt about them. I am sure the Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies for Mayo, who are not here, will, if asked by the Minister about these things, bear out what I have said.

I take this opportunity of drawing the attention of the Minister and of the House to a few matters appertaining to County Mayo. Recently, I put down a question with regard to the drainage of the Robe. The answer I got to that question was that until certain technical matters and regulations were complied with by the County Council of Galway the drainage scheme could not be pushed forward. Heretofore, the attitude of the Government had been that the drainage of the Robe was held up because the County Council of Mayo would not do its duty. A few months ago, a member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, who is also a member of the county council, brought this matter up at the council and he got a resolution passed — I myself seconded it — accepting responsibility on behalf of Mayo County Council for their share of the work. In any communications the council had received up to that, there was no mention of Galway. We were told that if we levied a certain rate the drainage would be done, but now we are told, at the last moment, that unless Galway backs this scheme the Robe will not be drained. Before I backed that resolution of the Mayo County Council, I asked the member of the Government Party concerned had he a definite guarantee that the money—£37,000— would be forthcoming from Government sources and he answered "Yes."

Mr. BOURKE

If they comply with the Act.

Why were we not told at first that County Galway would be brought into the scheme?

Mr. BOURKE

It is in the Act and you need not be told.

It is not in the Act, as far as I know.

Mr. BOURKE

Read it again and you will see.

The drainage of the Robe concerns the County Mayo.

Mr. BOURKE

It concerns two counties.

No. The drainage of the Moy concerns Mayo and Sligo, but I cannot see how the County Galway is interested in the drainage of the Robe. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands and Fisheries stated that there were no estates in the County Mayo fifteen years in the hands of the Land Commission. On at least two occasions I have put questions in the House regarding the de Clifford estate, which is about seventeen years in the hands of the Land Commission. It has also been brought to my notice that for a number of years the Sligo estate is in the hands of the Land Commission — it is certainly over ten years. Portions of the Sligo estate have not yet been dealt with. The same thing applies to the Fitzgerald estate. The total amount of money spent in Mayo out of the unemployment grant last year was something less than £5,000, as far as I understand. There were schemes amounting to about £200,000 put up to the Government as necessary for Mayo. Out of that there was, as I have said, something less than £5,000 spent in the county. That represents the amount of energy, money and time the Government has given to solving the unemployment problem in Mayo.

Mr. BOURKE

I do not know exactly what Deputy Clery wants us to do in this matter. It appears to me that if we were to give the relief he desires it would be necessary to change the whole character of County Mayo. Mayo is, unfortunately, a poor county. It has always been a poor county, and no action the Government can take can get away from that fundamental fact. There is an economic committee at the present time considering the whole question of the Gaeltacht, and no doubt they will be able, after some time, to bring forward proposals that will bring some relief. At the moment I cannot see that the Government can take any action that would give satisfaction to the Deputy.

The Deputy referred particularly in his question to the state of flooding in the County Mayo. There are many rivers in the County Mayo normally and usually subject to flooding, and, so far as I am aware, the flooding in the county has not been exceptional this year. We had a very wet June, and that caused a great amount of flooding all over Ireland. No doubt, Mayo came in for its share of that. But, as I say, I do not think that was exceptional in the County Mayo. No drainage operations that would give relief to Mayo, or any other county, could be carried out immediately. They would have to be the subject of consideration and of well-considered plans. They would have to be carried out in the dry season of the year. We have been considering the drainage problem in the County Mayo. We have given it a good deal of consideration.

For how long?

For forty years.

Mr. BOURKE

For a couple of years.

It may be for years and it may be for ever.

Mr. BOURKE

A good many proposals have been put up to us and, giving way to the wishes of the Mayo County Council, we have concentrated on the two main river drainage schemes — the Moy and the Robe. After prolonged investigation, we decided that the Moy scheme would not be economic. It would cost about £200,000, and it would give no commensurate return. That is fairly plain after superficial investigation.

I do not like to interrupt the Parliamentary Secretary, but would he inform us when it was decided that the Moy scheme was uneconomic?

Mr. BOURKE

A couple of months ago. We have been dealing with the Robe scheme as well, and we have decided that that scheme does hold out some promise. We believe it would be practicable and economic. It would cost between £30,000 and £40,000 and, with a free grant from the Government and the County Council contribution, we believe it would pay. Before we can go ahead with that scheme, it is necessary that the provisions of the Act should be complied with and that a formal application from six interested people should be sent forward. That has not been done yet. We have more or less anticipated the procedure under the Act. We have carried out our investigations, at the request of the representatives from County Mayo, before these petitions came to us in order not to waste time. It is up to the counties concerned now. As I am informed that Galway is affected by this scheme as well as Mayo, they will have to send in a petition. That is quite a simple matter. If there are not six landowners whose lands are going to be improved by this drainage scheme interrested in the matter in Galway and Mayo, there is not much use in our going forward with the scheme.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary state that the County of Galway is to be asked to bear a charge for the benefit of the people of Mayo? The people of Galway will not benefit one halfpenny by this scheme. Is it not begging the question to bring Galway in?

Mr. BOURKE

Our opinion is that the people of Galway will benefit from a certain portion of these operations and their consent must be got. If that is not the case, it is sufficient for six petitioners from Mayo to move in the matter. They have not done that. That is one way the Deputy can interest himself in a practical way in the scheme — to get those landowners whose land is going to benefit to send forward a petition. We are ready to go ahead with the scheme, but it will ultimately depend upon the occupiers whether the scheme is put into operation or not. We are quite anxious to see this scheme put into operation. I am not concerned with the other points raised by the Deputy, but when we have this scheme in operation, as I hope we will, we can consider other schemes in the county.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary say when Galway was first informed it was interested, or when he first discovered that Galway was interested? It was only mentioned a month ago, although we have been considering the drainage of the Robe for years.

Mr. BOURKE

It is not a matter for us to mention. It is for the people concerned to do this themselves. We have gone out of our way to anticipate the ordinary procedure. We could have sat tight and let the local people move.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until Thursday, at 3 p.m.

Barr
Roinn