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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Nov 1928

Vol. 27 No. 2

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 31.—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £9,619 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Dlí agus Cirt.

That a sum not exceeding £9,619 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice.

There is nothing very remarkable about this Estimate this year. It will be observed there is a decrease of £1,627 as compared with the previous year. The staff provided for in Sub-head A constitutes the Headquarters Staff of the Department of Justice. Ministerial control over all the various services, police, prisons, court officers, and so on, is exercised through this staff. The Accounts Branch, which is shown separately, is responsible for the payment of the Gárda Síochána, the court staffs throughout the country, the Land Registry and the Registry of Deeds staffs and all account work which has to be done in connection with the Department's activities is performed by this Branch. The only staff provided for outside Dublin is the emigration officer in Cobh. A fulltime officer is required there to carry out the provisions of the Aliens Restrictions Act, and in the very busy tourist season, when several liners call in or about the same time, an assistant is necessary, and £100 is provided for this assistance.

Sub-head AA is devoted entirely to the film censorship. The total cost of the film censorship is not shown in this sub-head. It will be noticed, if Deputies look at the foot-note on page 109, that sums of £10 and £20 are included for services in Sub-head C and Sub-head D, and £575 is included in other Votes which are set out on that page. The service is as a matter of fact, self-supporting. If Deputies look at page 107 they will notice the fees charged for film censorship amount to £2,300. These fees are collected by means of stamps. The proceeds of the sale of these stamps reach the Exchequer in the ordinary way.

One is always faced with a difficulty in dealing with an Estimate like this, because it is presented in such a general way that one cannot say for certain whether there is a redundancy of staff or whether the work done is really worth the money expended. There is a secretary at £1,200 and an assistant secretary at £888. Then there are other secretaries and other members of the staff, but no details are given as to how the work is allocated. We are really not in a position to judge whether the amount of work done is value for the money spent on the Department as a whole. The amount of work done at Ministerial headquarters in regard to the police force must be very small, because the staff of the Gárda Síochána is large and in the ordinary course would be well able to do all the work except a very small amount of correspondence with the Department of Justice. The chief work, so far as one can judge from the outside, is the answering of questions here and supplying information often of a false nature, information of the kind we got when a question was raised about the arrest of Peadar O'Donnell, a kind of sophistry and false information covering up the fact that a series of arrests were illegal arrests.

Then as to the film censorship, I have heard complaints from very serious people that films are getting through which should not get through. I just mention that in passing to draw the attention of the Minister to it. The comment I heard was made by a person who was arguing against any other kind of censorship because of the failure of the film censorship to stop certain films which are undesirable. I asked a question which was answered to-day about the number of charges made in connection with obscene literature and the answer is astonishing. The machinery of justice was used to such a small extent in four years that there were only five charges made and in the last year only one charge was made. The blame could not be thrown upon the Judges for not acting because in every case there was a conviction. This is a very serious aspect of the neglect on the part of the Minister for Justice. It is well within his control to see that the proper authorities are put upon the watch as regards this literature so that the ordinary machinery can be used. It has been said that the Judges have failed to deal with this matter, but that is not the case. If the Minister would go into the law as it is, he would find that there are ample means of dealing with a very large mass of objectionable stuff without having recourse to legislation at all. It is a clear case of neglect on the part of the Minister for Justice who has the guiding of the policy in regard to criminal matters entirely in his hands. In fact, he uses his forces where he should not use them, and he does not use them where he should use them. If he were to fine-comb this State for indecent and obscene literature in the way in which he has tried to fine-comb it for Republicans he would have ended long ago the nuisance of obscene and indecent literature.

We had a bout of raids for which the Minister accepts full responsibility and he refuses to give the least information as to why he carried out these raids. We are left entirely to guess what the reason is. Apparently they have produced little or no result. The raids seem to have been made largely on the officials of the Fianna Fáil organisation and in most cases nothing whatever of the kind of thing that the Minister was looking for has been found. Perhaps in his reply he will give us some information as to why he carried out these raids. Was it done without his knowledge by his forces who wished to justify the continuance of the Public Safety Act, at a time when it was coming up to be brought to a conclusion? The attitude of the Minister generally is—and it is only by such an attitude that the expense involved in his whole policy can be justified—that this country is still more or less in the same condition that it was in the years 1918 and 1919, that his forces are a sort of army of occupation, and that he is in the position of a Chief Secretary in the old days. To give him his due, he seems to be just as subject as the old Chief Secretaries were to false information. Time after time in this House we, with the information of the average citizen, and knowing the conditions, bring up and make a statement of facts. On the other hand, the Minister comes along with his "cock-and-bull" story invented by his forces either in his own office or down the country. If he cannot carry off his alleged facts, he adds his own particularly offensive method in order to throw sand in the eyes of the public and of course he has the Press to assist him and we have not.

What has happened the "Nation"?

It has not yet met the same fate as the President's paper.

Does it not help poor Deputy Little?

If the Minister had any experience of a weekly paper he would know that no weekly paper can cope with a daily Press. That is outside his jurisdiction, so I excuse him for his ignorance. In dealing with this matter of the raids, I regret very much that the Minister had recourse to the rather low down and odious method of referring back to a very tragic incident that occurred in this country—I refer to the assassination of Mr. O'Higgins. I think it was a deplorable thing to refer back to that. It has nothing to do with present-day politics. It was simply an attempt, I suppose, to cover his retreat—an attempt to get out of the difficulty. I make no comment on it and I ignore it, because he knows as well as anyone else in the House and in the country that we stand as much as he does for peace and good order in the country.

We are delighted to hear that—that is good news for the House.

The Minister has under his jurisdiction a number of prisoners at present, including four remand prisoners. One is on remand since May last, that is Miss Sheila Humphries. I wonder if the members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party like to see the Government which they are supporting keeping a young girl like that in jail for the last six months.

The Deputy is weak in his facts—he is not up to date.

I understand that Miss Humphries has been let out of jail. I must compliment the Minister on his extremely "ikey" way of avoiding criticism on the Vote. He let that lady out just in time.

I beg your pardon—you have got your facts wrong again. The Deputy is always accurate, with the average citizen's accuracy, of which he has given us an example.

I understand Miss Humphries did not receive any sentence. Is that so?

Six months that she had done already.

In any case, it was a tremendous victory for the Minister for Justice, on charges like interfering with a jury, to have managed to keep people like that in jail for six months, and also for keeping in jail for twelve months Mrs. MacDermott and Miss Jackson for posting up Republican leaflets. This kind of petty-minded persecution should not be allowed to continue by the decent-minded members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. In fact I suggest that the time has come when certainly all political prisoners should be allowed out of jail, and that for those who are on the run—and there are still some men on the run—a truce should be called and the matter ended.

Then we had a case of suppression of a meeting because it was alleged that it was a Bolshevik meeting. I did not know that this State was at war with Russia or that there was any law in this country to prevent people from holding public meetings and advocating there whatever views they wished as to what the social organisation of a country should be. I understood from the Constitution that people were immune if they wished to advocate particular views from any particular social or political point of view. I would like to know what authority the Minister has to interfere with the ordinary rights of citizens. Surely the ordinary citizens are capable and sensible enough themselves to judge whether the theories of Bolshevism are satisfactory or unsatisfactory. Has it become so widespread in this country that it is necessary for the Minister to send his forces to interfere with public meetings held under the constitution of a legitimate party?

There is really not very much that one can say about the actual expenditure under this Vote, because we have always found that owing to the lack of details given as to the exact amount of work done by the Department it is impossible to say where the extravagance or the redundancy comes in.

I want to raise a question, for which I think the Minister is responsible. It concerns citizens who make use of the post office machinery. I had my attention drawn within the last couple of months to two cases where it is quite evident that the correspondence of citizens was interfered with. I made inquiries, so far as I could, of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, and while I have not got the information officially and do not expect to get it officially, I am informed that there is good reason for believing that a high official in the Minister's office has authority to issue warrants to certain high police officers in the force for holding up the correspondence addressed to so-called politicians or people who may be regarded as enemies of the present Government.

The Minister may deny any knowledge of this, but he should be aware, if it is a fact, that any official of his Department has authority to issue warrants whereby certain police officers can interfere with the correspondence of ordinary citizens. The letters posted about which I am speaking, and which certainly were opened in the course of their passage through the Post Office, were not addressed to people with any strong political leanings, and certainly were not addressed to citizens who hold anti-State views or who have taken part in anti-State activities. I was urged to raise this matter and bring it under the notice of the Minister. I wish to know, therefore, from the Minister whether he will deny, if he is in a position to deny, that any such official in his Department has any such authority, or that he has delegated such authority to any high official in his Department. If he has, this is the Vote on which to justify the action he has taken. If there is any such thing going on with the sanction of the Minister it would help to break the confidence of the ordinary citizen in the machinery of the Post Office. Such authority should not be held by the Minister or given to the Minister, or passed from him to any of his officials, unless he is able to give very good and grave reasons for it. I raise the matter so that the Minister can deny the allegation if it is not true, or so that he can justify his action in this House if it is true. The matter is a serious one. Personally I never alleged any political prejudice against the Minister so far as he is personally concerned in the administration of his Department. But I look upon such authority as I have mentioned as uncalled for, and if the Minister is prepared to stand over it let him do so and give his reasons.

I want to refer to Deputy Little's comment and reflection upon the film censorship. I think Deputy Little is a fair-minded man, and I am sure he would be the last person to cast a slur on vague and indeterminate grounds upon an official who, to my mind, is extremely zealous and efficient. The film censor has a very hard and arduous task. I am possibly an incompetent member of the Appeal Board, but I have reason often to admire the extraordinary vigilance of this official, and I think the State is very lucky to possess him. I think the charge that Deputy Little brought should not be brought lightly on what somebody said or because somebody did not like a particular film. The Film Censor has no power to reject a film because it is inartistic. Possibly I wish he had, but I bear testimony to the fact that he has discharged the duties of his office with extraordinary vigilance and care. If he errs at all it is on the side of excessive rigour.

I do not wish to make any general charge against the film censor, but a person mentioned a very specific case to me, and his name, if I mentioned it, would assure Deputy Alton and the Minister that he could not be accused of narrow-mindedness. It may be the case of one film getting through that might be objectionable, and for that reason I thought it well to mention it, but did not wish to bring any charge.

I can add this. I believe that films that were censored and let through as cut in one or two cases have been filmed uncut. We have done our best to stop that.

There would be machinery for prosecuting people who did that.

It is very hard to catch them.

There is one case I want to get the opinion of the Minister for Justice on when he is concluding this debate. I made every effort possible to get this case gone into without having to bring it up here in the Dáil. I refer to a prosecution brought by the State against Mr. Hanley in Ballina, Co. Mayo, for attempting to obtain a sum of over £4,000 by means of false pretences.

That does not arise on the Estimate.

That does not arise on this.

In a reply that the Minister gave me within the last fortnight he informed me that that case had been withdrawn because, he claimed, there was insufficient evidence in support of it.

I think that that case would arise more properly on the Vote for the Department of Finance.

I understand that it comes on this Vote, because it was by the Department of the Minister for Justice that the case was withdrawn. It was a State prosecution, and when this man was remanded to the Central Criminal Court in Dublin the Minister for Justice had the case withdrawn because there was not sufficient proof, and I think that this certainly comes within the Department of the Minister for Justice.

There is nothing in this Vote in regard to the Attorney-General.

This was a ruling of the Minister for Justice.

It was not, because a nolle prosequi was entered by the Attorney-General, but I have no objection to having it debated on my Estimate.

I will make it as short as possible. I want to know if the only reason for withdrawing this case was because there was not sufficient evidence.

That is the reason why I want to bring it up here—to give the Minister and the House the evidence that was put forward in that case by the State Solicitor for Mayo, and I am sure that the arguments put forward by him ought to bear weight with the Minister for Justice. This case was brought forward in Ballina, and the State Solicitor said the charge was that the accused swore two declarations—one on the 15th May, 1923, and another on 13th December, 1923—that on September 12th, 1922, Irregulars came to his premises and forcibly took away goods to the value of £4,158 13s. 8d. In May, 1924, he swore goods to this value had been taken from his premises, and the State case was that Irregulars did visit his premises and took goods from the premises, but that the value of the goods taken was not more than about, roughly, £65. Mr. Hanley brought his claim under the Damage to Property Act, 1923, and based his claim on a stocktaking that he alleged took place on 28th February, 1922. These stock sheets were examined by Mr. Saunderson, on behalf of the State, whom he would produce as a witness on behalf of the Minister, and he would give evidence to show that even accepting Mr. Hanley's figures and valuation of the goods, the proper amount he should have claimed would be £65—that was accepting his statement that all these goods were really taken on that date. But they would go further than that and would show that there was never any stocktaking on the 28th February, 1922, and that these stock sheets were made up and produced simply for the purpose of the case, because in the stock sheets it was found that he had put down as in stock on the 28th February, 1922, goods that he bought in 1919. The special goods he referred to were Irish suitings and fancy suitings. He bought these in 1919, and, according to his stock sheet, he had them in February, 1922, but he also bought the same class of article in March, 1920, and subsequently in September, 1920, and he alleged that he had all these goods in stock on 28th February, 1922. That would be an amazing thing for a man to do—to buy the same class of goods three times and still have the original stuff in his possession. He told them he also took stock on the 13th September, after the raid, and gave them the amount of stock he then had on hand as £1,379 5s. 6d. He also told them that he purchased between then and the 28th of the following February goods to the value of £4,432 9s. 3d. That was a total of £5,811 14s. 9d. They were all the goods he got during that period, either had on hand after the raid or purchased, according to his own statement, and they would be able to prove that to the Army (that was the Free State Army) alone, between 13th September, 1922, and 3rd January, 1923, he sold goods to the value of £7,851 8s. 11d.

While the Government auditor could prove that, including the £4,000 worth he claimed that was raided from him, and all the goods he bought during the two periods mentioned, amounted to something over £5,000. According to the sworn statement of an Army officer at the same time, goods to the value of almost £8,000 were sold to the Army between 13th September, 1922, and 3rd January, 1923. Between February, 1922, and September, 1922, his weekly sales were £136 1s., according to his own figures. If he sold only to the Army and not an ordinary customer came into his place, it was still difficult to see where he got the goods he supplied to the Army.

Would the Deputy say what his object is in reading this?

I thought it would be much shorter to read the State Solicitor's case—that it would be more of a proof to the Minister that I am not dishing up stuff; that if this is dished-up stuff, it is dished up on behalf of the Minister by the State Solicitor. I think that is the shortest and the fairest way to deal with the case. His business could not have completely disappeared after the raid, but even if it had, and not a person came in and bought stuff, he had not sufficient stuff there to supply the Army. The State Solicitor also went on to say that on a sworn declaration they would show that only one small motor car came up to Mr. Hanley's door, and that the goods were thrown into that motor car and taken away in it. It was a Ford motor car, and no matter how they would succeed in getting the stuff into it, they certainly could not put £4,000 worth of drapery goods into it.

I will just quote a few lines from the accountant's evidence. He was a Mr. Saunderson, and he was sent down to inquire into the case when they were bringing on the prosecution. Mr. Saunderson said that in May, 1924, he was employed by the State to investigate the claim made by the accused. He asked Mr. Hanley if he could produce a balance sheet or profit and loss account for any period prior to 28th February, 1922, but Mr. Hanley refused or was unable to do so. He examined the stock sheets upon which Mr. Hanley based his claim, dated 28th February, 1922, and asked Mr. Hanley to produce invoices in support of certain of the prices charged in the sheets, and he found these dated back to 1919 and 1920. He was aware of a very considerable drop in prices in woollen and other goods in which Mr. Hanley dealt during the autumn of 1920 and the spring of 1921—a drop which averaged 50 per cent. He examined Mr. Hanley's prices generally, and found that they were the 1919-1920 prices. Taking Mr. Hanley's figures to be correct, he prepared an account allowing a gross profit of 25 per cent. on his sales. He was dealing with the purchases to prove his claim that Mr. Hanley had not the goods mentioned on the premises at the time. He said that the first of the purchases was made in September, 1919, and was for seven items for fancy suitings and Irish suitings to the value of £223 19s. 7d. These items were on page 6 on the declaration of the accused. The next invoice was dated 20th March, 1920, from the same firm. There were in that for Irish and fancy suitings a number of items amounting to £362 1s. 7d., which appeared at page 4 of the accused's declaration. He produced the third invoice from the same company (Messrs. Mack & Company) for £38 5s., dated 15th July, 1920.

Now, Mr. Hanley was claiming for all this stuff which he bought in 1919 and 1920, that he said he still had in his shop, and that he was carrying on business all the time he had them in his premises in Ballina when the raid took place, and they had disappeared in 1922. From that it appears that the defendant, in 1920, bought two lots of suitings, while he had on hands the suitings he bought in 1919, and that he had the three lots on hands, according to the stock sheets, on 28th February, 1922.

To put the matter shortly, the auditor sent up by the Government to inquire into the case, proved by Mr. Hanley's own figures that the value of the amount that was taken on the day of the raid in September, 1922, could not have been more than £65. That was the sworn statement of the accountant. The defendant was returned for trial to the circuit court in Mayo, and my information is—and I think I have it on fairly accurate grounds—that there was such an amount of wire-pulling brought on by Mr. Hanley and his friends in Mayo that the State thought it wise to have the venue changed to the Central Criminal Court in Dublin. Then after a little while the State, in spite of all that evidence, in spite of the case put forward by their own accountant that not more than £65 could have been taken, while Mr. Hanley had put in a claim for more than four thousand pounds, in spite of all that the Minister told me a few weeks ago, a nolle prosequi has been entered by the Attorney-General on the assumption that there was not sufficient evidence to prove the case. In addition to that there was the evidence of the gentleman who went to Mr. Hanley's house on that day, with two others, who were there to prove that they took from Mr. Hanley's house—this was given before the accountant gave his evidence— stuff valued between £60 and £80. That was their evidence, and I think it was quite clear that they were correct when the accountant came along afterwards and with Mr. Hanley's own figures proved that the amount taken must have been £65 worth. I do not see how the Minister can claim that there was insufficient evidence to prove the case. I am not bringing this on because I want Mr. Hanley rearrested and put into jail, but I want this case thrashed out seeing that I was prevented from getting the evidence through the Department of Justice, in a decent open manner, so that justice would be done. Either the gentlemen who went to Mr. Hanley's house during the civil war period committed perjury at the court or Mr. Hanley committed perjury. Either the case made by the State Solicitor was entirely wrong, Mr. Hanley is entitled to his claim for over £3,000 and the gentlemen who went and who are still available are guilty of perjury or the State Solicitor is right. It must be one way or the other. These things took place when it was popular for members of the Government Party, or the President's Party, as it might be called, to go about the country calling everyone associated with the Republican movement looters and robbers. That was quite the usual thing at that time as most Deputies will remember. At any public meeting addressed by the President if there happened to be any decently dressed young lady in the crowd, who did not agree with the ideas or the theories put forward by President Cosgrave, she was asked by him in the petty and mean way he has on public platforms where she got that hat or where she got that coat.

This has certainly nothing to do with the Estimate.

It was claimed by the State at that time that people with whom I was associated went into Mr. Hanley's premises and took away ladies' costumes, ladies' hats and other things of that kind to the value of £4,000. Here was a case where the State brought a prosecution against the gentleman concerned to prove that that gentleman had made false statements, had committed perjury, and tried to get over £4,000 out of public funds under false pretences. Is the Government going to leave that case aside? If we contrast that case with the treatment meted out to Republicans throughout the country there is nobody but will agree that were it not that Mr. Hanley usually acts as chief steward for President Cosgrave at meetings in the town of Ballina, and is supposed to be the best and ablest armed thug in the town any time President Cosgrave comes there I think you would not have the case withdrawn because there was not sufficient evidence to prove it. I think it is too glaring a thing to be allowed to go by. I think the Minister should have the case reinvestigated. He should either arrest the people who are living in Ballina to-day, who are supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party, for having sworn and committed perjury a short time ago, or have Mr. Hanley's case reconsidered and the State prosecution gone on with. This is one case where it can be easily seen the Department of the Minister for Justice through some branch or other, which I do not know, have taken into consideration the politics of a gentleman who had been prosecuted by the State. I think if the Minister wants to have respect for the courts throughout the country, he would have a case of that kind gone into and dealt with by his Department in a different manner. While this gentleman is allowed to go on in the old way, because he is a State supporter, last week you had the houses of every decent Republican in Ballina raided and ransacked by Civic Guards and C.I.D. men, on the evidence we were informed of secret informers in the pay of the Government. There is a case where you have every possible victimisation and meanness carried out under the Department of Justice, on the one hand against Republicans, and on the other hand you have the most glaring case that I have yet heard of, perjury and trying to obtain money under false pretences withdrawn, I assume, simply for no other reason than that the gentleman concerned was a very faithful supporter of the Government.

What was the date?

I gave all these particulars to the Minister's Department within the last two months. The case was brought on some time in 1926, and I understand it is not six months since the case was withdrawn by the State.

What the Deputy has said would lead Deputies to believe that I have intervened in this case. I have not, nor do I know where the material is which was seized, or if it has been returned. I know nothing about the case.

Perhaps the President may be right, but, if he wants to prove that, he will need to get the Department of Justice to act in a very different manner.

I know nothing whatever about the material, where it is or anything about it. Perhaps the Deputy would tell me?

I do not believe you do. Of course, they were Irish suitings.

Reference was made to-night to the official film censor. The film censor is blamed for passing pictures that certain people, or that one individual, objects to. I would like to ask Deputy Little if it was the film censor who passed the picture he referred to? The Censorship Appeal Board meets sometimes two or three times a week to review pictures that Mr. Montgomery turns down, and in the majority of cases what Mr. Montgomery, the film censor, turns down, the Court of Appeal passes. It may not have been the film censor that passed this particular picture. It is not fair to put everything on an individual who cannot reply in the Press or here. In the majority of cases which the film censor turns down they are not turned down by a majority of the film board.

I would like to intervene in this discussion for the purpose of directing an attack on the policy of the Department of Justice. I do not think it would be right that Deputies on this side of the House, apparently the only Deputies who are anxious to establish a proper respect for law and order in the country——

Question!

—I am going to prove it—should let an opportunity pass without taking the Minister to task for the various happenings that occurred during the past year under his direction. There is throughout the country a very strong suspicion that justice is not blind, that she has got her eyes wide open and is carefully picking her steps and discriminating between the persons who come before her. It has been repeatedly brought to our notice that the activities of the Guards are directed, in the main, against a particular section of the community, and that does not happen to be the section with which the Minister is associated, although if justice were blind, I am sure the reverse would be the case. We have been endeavouring for a long time past to carry out what we declared to be our policy, to abolish the memory of the dissensions that split our people and wipe out the recollections of the bitter years that followed the acceptance of the Treaty so that there would be developed in this country the right spirit of co-operation between all classes to enable us to confront the many problems that face us.

The Department of Justice appear, however, to set themselves definitely against the realisation of that aim and to have directed their efforts towards provoking a renewal of the spirit of civil strife which existed so violently a short time ago. There is, at any rate, a suspicion that there is something concealed behind the various declarations which we get from the Minister concerning such of the activities of his Department as we question in this House from time to time. When questions, as to the beating of prisoners in the barracks by Civic Guards or other matters of that kind, are brought up here the Minister has a stock reply which he turns out very glibly. In fact, I was often wondering where the Minister went to recoup himself after each of those bouts, where he went for the purpose of getting a fresh stock of wind. I found in the Estimates the explanation, and I hope the Minister will elaborate it when replying. I found an estimate for one wind-boy at a salary of £30 per year.

One wind-boy who winds the films.

Unfortunately I will have to continue my quest for information which I thought I had acquired. However, we have had here this afternoon, yesterday afternoon, and for some time past questions directed to the Minister concerning raids carried out by the Civic Guards throughout the whole country since the Estimate for the Civic Guards was discussed in this House. Deputy Little may not be altogether correct in saying that nothing was found as a result of these raids. In some cases something was found, and I will deal with that presently. I have no doubt the Department of Justice are not quite as stupid as people might think they are, and when they decided to carry out a series of raids upon the active officers of the Fianna Fáil organisation they were careful, too, that the Guards engaged on those raids would find an odd gun, a land mine, or a parcel of bombs. Ammunition was found in some outhouse or disused garden so that it could not be traced to anyone in particular. In fact, I noticed the other night that when some misguided individuals blew off the hind leg of King Billy's horse the Civic Guards, called out to investigate the occurrence, were able to drive out immediately to Inchicore to a disused brickworks and find a dump. I am sure their success the other night surprised more than myself. The Guards called out to investigate the occurrence in College Green were immediately able to get into their cars, drive out to Inchicore, and find a dump.

The spirit of King William.

Possibly it was inspiration, and possibly it did not exist there before King Billy lost his horse's leg. It was necessary the Civic Guards should be able to show something to justify their existence and carefully find a dump. I wonder how often during the past year have the particular arms found that night been found by the Civic Guard, where they will be next discovered in order to justify the activities of the Civic Guard, and in connection with what occurred.

To get back to the raids: with a knowledge of the Fianna Fáil organisation that, personally, I thought was surprising in each constituency, the Guards appeared to be able to pick out the most active members of the organisation and afterwards raid them. In no single case in which an officer of the Fianna Fáil organisation was raided were weapons found, but papers relating to the organisation were seized. The Minister states it is for the purpose of finding arms, but he knows he will not find a machine-gun inside an envelope, no matter how large it is, or a dump in any correspondence which goes out from Fianna Fáil. The activities of the Guards, on the occasion of these raids, may have been for the purpose of finding arms, but actually they appear to be for the purpose of finding out information concerning the Fianna Fáil organisation.

There have been more extraordinary cases than that. There is the case of the delegates who attended the recent Ard Fheis of Fianna Fáil and who had to return to their homes. They were arrested and taken to the police station and all the documents relating to the Ard Fheis were taken by the Guards. I will facilitate the Minister by arranging to have specific questions in the Order Paper dealing with each case. Already we have drawn his attention to cases of raids, which appear to be carried out for no other purpose than that of irritating the political opponents of the Minister. I have tried to satisfy myself as to the reason for those raids. The newspapers reported a number of Fianna Fáil Deputies as having spoken somewhat enthusiastically of and praised the Civic Guards. Probably the Ministry thought this would be a good opportunity of causing disruption in the Fianna Fáil organisation by irritating supporters of the Deputies who spoke in that way. If that be their purpose I may tell them that they have achieved a measure of success because, from all over the country, those of us who did praise the Guards have received letters of protest from those who have been the subject of those pernicious activities. The activities of the Civic Guards, in connection with the finding of these dumps to which I have already referred, have given rise, in most cases, to the suspicion that crime is being manufactured for political purposes. I am saying this quite seriously, because in many parts of the country statements have been made to me that dumps are alleged to have been found in places where the people living there knew quite definitely that nothing of the kind existed, and they appear to be at a loss to understand the motives for the alleged discovery of those dumps. The only explanation that occurs to one is that the Ministry are anxious to maintain in the minds of the people the idea that they are walking on land over a mine which may go off at any minute, and thus terrorise those people sufficiently so that they will think their safety lies in maintaining the iron men that constitute the Government.

I would like if the Minister would deal with this subject in his reply and tell us exactly why orders were given for all these raids which have occurred during the last fortnight, and in particular why orders were given to raid the houses of the secretaries of the Fianna Fáil branches, and in particular why the houses of a number of gentlemen, who were candidates for Fianna Fáil at the last General Election, were raided, and in one case why the house of one member of this Party, Deputy Corkery, was raided also.

There must be some motive. We would be glad to know it. I do not believe that the Minister for Justice or any responsible officer of the Civic Guard expected to find ammunition in these houses. In the reports that reached me it does not appear that any serious attempt was made to search for arms, but to get documents. There is another matter to which Deputy Davin referred, namely, the interference with correspondence going through the post. It has been repeatedly denied in this House that there is anything in the nature of a censorship of letters. I want to give a specific case, namely, that of Sean Russell, who some time ago was a political prisoner in Mountjoy and was released. For a considerable time after his release, he informs me, the letters he received in the ordinary course of business were delivered opened and sealed by a white gummed seal and marked, "Opened by the Post Office," and initialled in blue pencil in a corner. No explanation was offered. Those of us who have had experience of having letters censored in the post know that that is the way that letters are delivered after being censored. I want to know definitely if there is such a thing as a censorship of letters, and, if so, in what manner is it operated and against whom?

Another very serious matter which was referred to to some extent by Deputy Little was the reply given by the Minister for Justice to a question asked by Deputy Cooney last week. Deputy Cooney asked the reason for a raid on a certain workers' club in Dublin, and the Minister replied that the Guards had information that this club was organising a demonstration, part of the plans of which was a procession through the streets calculated to lead to a breach of the peace. A number of placards, he added, with offensive and treasonable inscriptions thereon, were to have been carried. In reply to a supplementary question he said that the offensive and treasonable inscriptions were: "Up Red Russia,""Long Live Soviet Russia."

These were only specimens; they were not all of them.

These were the examples which the Minister gave, and, knowing his ability as a debater, I am sure that he picked the most damaging of them.

No.

They were the most apt to the gentleman who asked the question.

The Minister left the impression on my mind, at least, that it was an offensive and treasonable slogan to print on a placard "Up Red Russia" and "Long Live Soviet Russia."

Deputy de Loughrey says "So it is." We are trying to find out what is the law of this country. I have already said that we are the Party who are anxious to ensure proper respect for the law in this country, but we cannot do so until we know what the law is. Deputy de Loughrey says that it is treasonable to say "Up Red Russia." I often felt inclined to say "Up de Loughrey." It may not seem so offensive as it may sound. I am certain that Soviet Russia will outlive Deputy de Loughrey's antagonism. At the same time we want to know under what law, or in consequence of what article of the Constitution, it has been decided that it is illegal, treasonable and offensive to display placards with the words "Up Red Russia." Moreover, it appears that the Minister for Justice was under the impression that the term "Up Red Russia," if displayed in the streets on a placard, was likely to lead to a riot. There is no recorded case in the history of this country where the display of such a placard resulted in a riot. In this case, acting on his own instinct, no doubt, the Minister ordered the police to raid the club, seize the placards and prevent the procession taking place. There are emblems and slogans which, when displayed in the streets, have resulted in riots and, please God, always will. I refer to the flag of the British Empire. There is always work for the police, rioting and broken heads when that emblem is displayed. Yet the Minister has never attempted to prevent the display of such emblems.

On the one hand, there is no case in which the display of a placard with the words "Up Red Russia" has caused a single person to turn a hair but, on the other hand, the display of the Union Jack has always led to a breach of the peace. Yet the Minister for Justice immediately pounces on the one and lets the other go uninterfered with. As the Party anxious to maintain the law, as against the Party opposite, we want to ensure that the regulations governing police action in this matter will be wisely interpreted and wisely used.

If the Minister wants to prevent a breach of the peace and, consequently, to prevent any undue strain being placed on the resources of the police, he will have, and has had in the past, many opportunities of exercising the powers conferred on him, but if he merely wants to interfere with the activities of those who happen to hold political or economic views contrary to his own, he will act in the future as in the past and keep the bandage off the eyes of justice. He will carefully pick out the cases in which the machinery of the law is to be set in motion. He will use the police for the purpose of raiding the homes of his political opponents and breaking up their organisation. Like Deputy Davin, I want to give the Minister for Justice an opportunity to prove that these statements are untrue. Deputy Davin coined a gem when he said that the Minister is an adept in denying anything. I think it would be impossible to conceive any charge against the police, substantiated by no matter what evidence, which the Minister would not have the cheek to deny. On every occasion he stood up against assaults which any other Minister, I think, would not care to face, and he always carried his flag, if not victorious, at least fighting a good rear-guard action by the very nature of his denial "It is not so." No matter what evidence you give he will always say "That is not so. We can always rely on the Civic Guard to carry out the law of this country." I hope that the Minister will not take up that attitude in replying to this debate, but that he will deal with the specific points that I have mentioned—the raids on the offices of the Fianna Fáil organisation, the extraordinary facility with which members of the Civic Guard can find dumps whenever it is convenient for them to find them, interference with letters going through the post, and finally, this raid upon the Connolly Workers' Club and his description of the slogan "Up Red Russia" as being treasonable. I hope that he will deal with these matters and tell us what the attitude of his Department is, as well as the attitude of the Government in relation to them.

I want to get some information from the Minister with regard to raids carried out around my district during the last half year. The raids were carried out by the Civic Guards. They called to a number of houses there and turned them upside down day after day. In some instances they came and raided on one day and came back in a couple of days' time and carried out another raid. The houses of the following people in the district were raided:—Charles Barry, garage proprietor, Harbour Row, Cobh; Mrs. Fitzgerald, Ballinbrittig, Carrigtwohill; Mrs. Madden, Ballinbrittig, Carrigtwohill; Mrs. Deasy, Killacloyne, Carrigtwohill, and Denis Fenton, Upper Killacloyne, Carrigtwohill. These houses were raided on a couple of occasions during the last fortnight. I would like to know what is the reason for all these raids. I am quite aware of the want of employment for the Civic Guards in that district. I am sure they were badly off to get a bit of an airing in motor cars going around at night doing these jobs. There is another matter that I want to refer to. It is in connection with the salaries, wages and allowances for this Department. I notice that every official drawing a fairly high salary has got an increase but that the unfortunate under-dog, according to the figures here, has been pulled down.

The salaries of higher executive officers were increased from £462 to £488 a year. The salary of the film censor was increased from £600 to £650. The salaries of junior administrative officers were raised from £3 to £5 a week each. I notice that the unfortunate typist was reduced from £63 to £60 a year. Apparently the wind boy did not succeed in putting up sufficient wind for the Minister, because his salary was reduced from £84 to £83 a year. I hope the Minister will give us an exact description of the duties of the wind boy. I was under the impression, from the nature of the stereotyped replies that the Minister has been giving to the House in regard to raids and other matters, that he had a gramophone in stock. Now I think it must be a bellows that he has, and that he has this chap for blowing the wind into it. I do not know what particular kind of wind he wants to raise when he got a hold of this boy.

I think it is unfair that there should be a reduction in the smaller salaries when we see here that people with salaries of £600 a year have had theirs increased by £50 a year. The Minister got through so well during the last twelve months that there must have been a good bit of wind behind him. I think that the wind boy did not deserve to have his salary reduced. I do not see any indication of the Minister reducing in size, so that I think that the wind must have been kept up fairly well. I would appeal to the Minister to increase the wind boy's salary by this £1 that he has taken off him.

My complaint against the Minister for Justice is, unlike Deputy Clery's, that he has kept a certain person in prison. I think it is rather a hardship that this person should be kept in prison. I am referring to a man named Edge. I have written to the Minister about this man, but I did not get very much satisfaction. This man is not a political prisoner. He was left a farm of land in the year 1916 by his mother. In the year 1924 his sister took an action against him for part of the property. Edge believed that he was quite entitled to the land under his mother's will, and the will was genuine. It was afterwards proved that the mother was not entitled to make this will. Edge was then told that he would have to give his share to his sister. He was not in a position to do so, because he was just like every other farmer and had nothing in 1924. He was charged with a rent for the farm from 1916 to 1924. His sister had two courses open to her, I believe, in law. One was to ask the sheriff to put him out, and the second to ask the judge to put him in jail. She took the more vindictive of the two courses, and had him put in jail for contempt of court because he would not carry out the previous order of the court in paying up the rent or whatever was due. As far as I can learn from the Minister's Department and from legal friends, this man is likely to remain in jail until he says "I have no right to that land."

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy, but this is a matter which has not the slightest bit of concern for my Department. I have no control over the judges. The judge sent this man to prison for contempt, and I have no power to let him out. The judges are perfectly independent of the Executive in this country.

Perhaps the Minister is right. What I want to know is: if this man persists in holding, as he honestly believes, that he is entitled to this place, does that mean that he must remain in prison for the remainder of his life?

That is a matter for the judge. Application can be made to the judge who made the order, but I have nothing to do with a judge's order.

Deputy Little touched on a matter that I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to. There are two distinct items that I want to refer to. On Friday week, when the Dáil rose, I was informed that Peadar O'Donnell had been again arrested. As a result of inquiries, I discovered that he was on his way to the police courts to be charged. I would respectfully suggest to the Minister that he should send for a transscript of the evidence that was given in that case when it came before the magistrate in court, and see if he cannot introduce some regulations to deal with these gentlemen who seem to have nothing else to do but wait about for people who in their own words are "suspicious-looking characters." A C.I.D. gentleman saw Mr. O'Donnell getting off a tram at the corner of Marlborough Road. He went over to Mr. O'Donnell and accosted him. Mr. O'Donnell ran away and this man ran after him. They both fell to the ground, and subsequently Mr. O'Donnell found himself in the police courts on the charge of having assaulted this man who accosted him.

The magistrate tried to find out what was the reason. Had he a warrant? He had not. He had a warrant in his possession which entitled him to stop and search if he liked any person who appeared to him to be a suspicious person. I was a witness of these particular proceedings. I must say that the legal gentlemen in the court considered it an awful waste of time, for Mr. O'Donnell was released under the First Offenders Act. The Minister's Department is reducing the law and the police courts to an absolute farce. Mr. O'Donnell had nothing in his possession. He had been arrested on numerous occasions, as the Minister knows, and he is a heavy cost to the State. He has never been found to be a criminal, and he has never been found to have had arms in his possession, and yet this detective can practically live around Marlborough Road and arrest Mr. O'Donnell every time he goes home or leaves his house, because Mr. O'Donnell's face is one he does not like. At the time of this occurrence to which I have referred there was a Dublin Metropolitan Guard at the corner but he had sufficient good sense not to take part in the proceedings. As a matter of fact he should have been brought to the court as a witness if there was any sense in this particular thing. I suggest seriously to the Minister that he should send for the transcript of evidence of those particular proceedings, and he will see that there is some necessity for altering the regulations which empower people to go around and arrest people of whom they have a suspicion. Deputy Brady was with me in the court during the proceedings.

Another matter to which I wish to refer is that there is evidently a great difference between the treatment of political and ordinary prisoners. The Minister refers here in the House to all prisoners as criminals, but evidently in the carrying out of justice there is a distinction and the Minister's Department does recognise a distinction between the ordinary and political prisoners. I have been in the courts on many occasions and I have seen prisoners tried before a jury. If a jury disagrees the prisoner is either re-tried again on the same day or on the following morning by another jury, but certainly a prisoner is not kept a long time before he knows whether he is found to be guilty or not guilty. In the case of four men who were for a considerable time on remand for taking down Union Jacks, they were brought to the criminal courts and tried, but the jury disagreed. That is a considerable time ago but they are still awaiting re-trial. There is a distinction there. The Minister in reply to a question by Deputy Kerlin on this matter said that he could not give these people special facilities.

I am not asking for special facilities, but I suggest that they should not have greater hardship imposed on them than the ordinary criminals. As it happens, there were six men arrested for the same offence. Two were tried and they were sentenced to two weeks. Four were kept about three months on remand, and they were brought to trial. The jury disagreed and they are still awaiting trial. I think there is something suspicious at least about that. Possibly these men will not get a very heavy sentence and the Minister's Department is taking all they can out of them before they come to trial. I ask the Minister to look into it and to see that there should be some tightening up in the case of the men who are particularly active and, so far as I know, are engaged solely on work of a political nature.

resumed the Chair.

This debate has been in some respects, I think, a very unfortunate debate because it produced, in my judgment at any rate, from Deputy Lemass an entirely deplorable speech—a speech that if Deputy Lemass was in earnest in his statement he could not have made. Deputy Lemass started off by saying that he was anxious, and his Party were anxious, for peace in this country. They wanted to have the recollections of divisions that had existed swept away. They wanted the right spirit of co-operation, and he made a speech as little likely to lead to the establishment of that spirit of co-operation as could well be made. The Deputy, again and again throughout his speech, asserted that the Guards were manufacturing crime. Again and again he declared that they were collecting dumps in order that they might discover them. He declared that this Party were creating crime for a political purpose, a charge which I do not believe the Deputy himself for one second honestly cherishes, and yet a charge which he thinks he can bring forward in this House, and that when he brings it forward he is creating a spirit of amity and working for co-operation between the political parties. The Deputy talked a great deal about peace. The Deputy is very willing to attack the Guards, but the Deputy is very cautious that he does not say one single word detrimental to or which might be offensive to those persons who are openly preaching the doctrine of violence in this country. As far as they are concerned the Deputy is dumb. The Deputly knows there is a body of persons who seek to alter the present conditions, and openly state that they wish to do it with force and violence. Not one single word against them would ever fall from the Deputy's lips. As far as they are concerned, he is dumb. Whether it is from want of moral courage or not I do not know. The fact remains the Deputy never says a word against them, but because he can do so easily and cheaply he thinks he can make his wanton attacks on the Guards.

Is the Minister referring to the British Fascisti?

I am not, and the Deputy knows perfectly well to whom I am referring. The Deputy talks about occasions on which there were flags or banners carried and on which there were "Up Soviet Russia," and "Up Red Russia," and other things, and he wants to know if they were likely to lead to a riot. Does the Deputy recollect the occasion on which that demonstration was stopped? Is the Deputy not aware on that occasion a very distinguished man doing work of great importance to the world visited this country and that when he— a distinguished visitor—had landed on our shores and was entering the capital city of this country that this demonstration was got up as a counter demonstration to him and to his world's peace projects? It was right and proper that this counter-demonstration which would have led to a breach of the peace should have been checked. No breach of the peace did in fact occur, but a breach of the peace would inevitably have occurred if these two demonstrations had encountered each other.

That is not the question I asked at all. I asked whether the slogans were offensive and treasonable, as the Minister described them, and, if so, under what Act would they be judged as offensive and treasonable?

A thing is offensive or treasonable in itself. There are particular descriptions of things offensive and treasonable, but I have not a list of them here. Some of them, no doubt, were treasonable.

No doubt!

Yes. The ones I mentioned were the ones that I happened to see.

Were they treasonable?

Are these descriptions treasonable?

Are the descriptions that you have quoted, in your opinion, treasonable? Is it treason in the Saorstát to say: "Up, Red Russia," or "Up, the Soviet Republic"?

Surely the Deputy ought to have sufficient intelligence to be able to answer that question himself. How could it be?

You might as well answer the question.

Yes, answer it.

I have made answer in perfectly plain language.

I have not any doubt about my own intelligence; what I am anxious about is the intelligence of the Minister.

There are too many members of the Senior Bar, I think.

Will the Minister answer that question?

How could the Minister know that a thing was treasonable when he did not see it? The Minister said that some of the ones he did not see were treasonable. How could he know whether they were treasonable or not when he did not see them?

I did not say that. I said the ones which I mentioned are not treasonable, and I say, further, that they were not all the inscriptions.

There really should be debate and not cross-examination. That is an old rule. I think the Minister should now be allowed to proceed.

I see that Deputy Allen is anxious to ask something, and he is usually very quiet.

The Minister is evading an answer.

I merely wanted to say that the other inscriptions were too dangerous and they did not want the Minister to see the bad ones.

Oh, no. Deputy Briscoe comes along and he talks about a certain unfairness to political prisoners, as he calls them. He complains that they are not tried immediately. They are tried like everybody else. If a jury disagrees, and if there is time, they are tried again at that same Commission or Sessions, as the case may be. If there is not time they have to stand over like the others. I have known many cases in which men have been tried, the jury disagreed, and the case did not come on at the same Commission. I have one case in mind in which I defended men charged with murder. They were tried at one Commission, and there was disagreement. Another Commission passed by and their case was not heard, and it was only at the third Commission that their case was taken up for hearing. If there is congestion at the Commissions certain prisoners have to wait over.

I am not comparing a charge of murder with a petty charge such as the taking down of the Union Jack in Dublin. I was in the courts, and there was no pressure of business in the nature of serious charges which would warrant putting a prisoner back for so long. In one case a man was tried for blackmail and the jury disagreed. This case came on within a few days before another jury. All through, criminal cases were given preference to the cases of political prisoners. In the petty case I have referred to the jury disagreed in a short space of time. There were other juries sworn before which that and similar cases could have been tried, but yet those cases were put back and the men are still awaiting trial. There is no comparison between a charge of murder and the taking down of a flag.

The more serious the charge the earlier it ought to be brought to trial. The heavier the charge, in my judgment, the sooner the prisoner ought to be brought before the court. I am not, of course, in charge of trials, nor is my Department in a position to give directions as to what should happen in Green Street. That is not under the control of my Department. Prosecutions are not matters for me or my Department, and Deputies should be perfectly well aware of that.

Does the Minister dispute that the charges are brought as they are prepared by the State Solicitor? Does he dispute the fact that the State Solicitor, representing the police, specifies what cases he will take on particular days?

The practice used to be——

If Deputies continue arguing with the Minister it will be impossible to proceed with the debate.

I have nothing to do with the order of cases taken by the gentleman who prosecutes for the State. Sometimes a judge would suggest that a certain case should be taken, but in the ordinary course the cases are arranged by the gentleman who prosecutes for the State. That does not come under my Department. I know, however, that the business is properly worked. Deputy Clery read us out a very long extract from a newspaper. Here, again, is a matter in which my Department was not concerned, but I am perfectly willing and ready to deal with it. The Deputy read and read and read, and I must say that what he read did not convey very much of an impression to my mind. I had inquiries made into the matter, and it appears that this case was one in which, after very careful investigation, the Attorney-General came to the conclusion that there was no evidence upon which a jury could be asked to convict. Deputy Clery reads out a statement of the case that the State thought it could prove but failed to prove. He read out the opening statement of the State Solicitor as being absolutely conclusive. Is it not absolutely absurd for a Deputy to get up here and put a case like that? The State Solictor puts the State case as strongly as he can. The State case did not succeed. The evidence was not sufficient to justify a prosecution. So the Attorney-General has informed me, and I am perfectly satisfied that that is so.

Did the State not succeed in getting the man returned for trial?

It is the business of the Attorney-General to enter a nolle prosequi if he is satisfied that there is not sufficient evidence to justify a conviction.

Will the Minister say if this person got paid the claim that he put in?

I presume so. I have no personal knowledge of the facts of the case. I presume he was paid, and I understood from Deputy Clery that he was paid.

He was not, as far as my knowledge goes, and therefore somebody must have a serious doubt that the man did tell a lie when he was not paid.

As far as I understood the Deputy's reading, the man was actually paid. I am informed by the Attorney-General, and I accept it as correct, that he considered there was no evidence upon which a jury could convict.

Does the Minister know the charge on which the man was sent for trial?

I know that the charge was obtaining money under false pretences. I heard it read out now.

Or making a fraudulent claim?

The charge was attempting to obtain money under false pretences. That would be the ordinary form of the charge.

A man might make a fraudulent claim without necessarily getting the money under false pretences.

He would be indicted for obtaining money under false pretences, and perhaps I know as much about an indictment as the Deputy. He may take my word for that. Deputy Little made charges about not prosecuting over obscene literature. Of course there have been very few prosecutions, and that is because it is practically impossible to obtain convictions in these cases. It is only in respect of a book which is terribly glaring beyond all question, not only immoral, but also indecent and gross in its treatment of an immoral subject, that you can take a prosecution with any hope of success. It is only in such a case that you can succeed with a prosecution as the law stands now. That is the reason why we have found it necessary to introduce legislation, and we have found it necessary to introduce legislation setting up a censorship, because the Committee reported that a censorship was the only way of dealing with these matters. Under the law as it stands you really never can succeed if you prosecute a newsagent for selling an improper paper. The newsagent may not know himself that the paper was an improper paper. A bookseller may have a book in a shop; he may have seen a review of it, and he may write for the book in order to sell it and that may turn out to be an indecent book. He may not have read the book himself. The only fair thing is to give him notice first. That is why it is necessary to have a censorship. You could not succeed in a prosecution if a man innocently sold a book.

On a point of personal explanation, I know that there are several legal authorities who disagree entirely with the Minister on that point.

Deputy Little may know a great number of legal authorities. I am not in the slightest degree interested whether he does or not. Deputy Little has great sources of information. The Deputy has very curious sources of information. Here is this anonymous gentleman who makes a violent attack upon the film censor—an attack which is shown by two members of this House who are on the Appeal Board to be an utterly unwarranted and unjustifiable attack. Deputy Little is willing to attack anybody on the slightest bit of notice. Deputy Little talked a great deal about the information which the average citizen has got. Well, we have got the average citizen's idea of a statement of fact from Deputy Little himself, who, talking about one case, did not obviously know the first thing about it. As regards these attacks which are made on the Civic Guard, I will give an idea of what the average citizen—which I take to be an average member of the Fianna Fáil Party— takes as a statement of fact. The other day a statement was made by Deputy Goulding that the husband of a postmistress had written to him to say that her house had been raided, or something of that kind, by members of the Gárda Síochána. He refused to give any further information, but we succeeded in getting down to the particular case which the Deputy was talking about. I find that the house was never raided by the Gárda Síochána at all. The Deputy was told by somebody that the Guards went into the house to hold an investigation, while the Guards had actually never been near the place at all at the time. The only persons who had been there to investigate the post office books were two members of the post office staff—not Gárda Síochána at all.

Who told the Minister that?

I beg your pardon, I did not say the place was visited by the Gárda. I said the office was visited by two men, one of whom said he was a member of the C.I.D.

This is the sort of wild statement that is made.

That is quite correct. That is what the Deputy actually said. The Minister will get it on the records.

These are the sort of wild statements upon which Deputies act. The moment that the Deputy gets anything said to him, true or false, the Deputy does not do what the Deputy ought to do and what, in my humble judgment, an honourable man would do. He does not investigate for himself the truth of the allegation before he comes here and makes charges.

He was perfectly certain of the truth of the allegation.

I hold it is the Minister's duty to investigate the matter and not mine. I received a complaint from a servant of the State. An officer of the Post Office in this case told me, and I was entitled to act on that. I asked the Minister to investigate it.

And the Deputy is entitled to ask it in this House. He is entitled to ask that it should be investigated.

These are the sort of charges we hear. In the case of any single baseless rumour which reaches the Deputy, the Deputy is to come into this House and, on the strength of that baseless rumour, he thinks it is his duty to make a charge. Any cock-and-a-bull story which anybody may invent is immediately accepted by the Deputy.

I may point out that I made no baseless charge, and the Minister should withdraw that statement. There was a statement made to me by a servant of this State, an official of the Post Office, and that charge was not baseless. The Minister should withdraw that.

The charge was completely without any base.

Mr. BOLAND

The charge should be withdrawn.

Is it seriously suggested by Deputy Goulding, who has listened to a great many debates in this House, that the Minister should be asked to withdraw a statement that the charge made by the Deputy was baseless? It is a standard which I would like to see adopted in the House, but——

Probably there is a C.I.D. man in the Post Office.

That shows the type of allegations that are brought here. Anybody who tells one of the Deputies opposite any sort of cock-and-a-bull story will have the Deputies standing up in the House and bringing charges against the Gárda Síochána without having made the slightest inquiry into the truth of these charges. The Deputy considers he is justified in slandering a body of men like the Gárda Síochána.

What about the cock-and-bull story told by the Minister?

The Minister must be allowed to make his speech.

I think I have dealt sufficiently with Deputy Little and his various remarks. Deputy Davin talked about the power of opening letters. There is, of course, the power to give an order to the Post Office that letters should be opened—a power which is used in the case of indecent literature, for instance, and other things of that nature. Indecent literature is very constantly being checked and stopped in the Post Office, and if the sender of the literature is discovered a prosecution follows if the person is living in this country. That is the only way in which indecent literature can be checked. The law, in fact, says that indecent literature and matters of that nature shall not be sent through the post. The same applies in any other case in which it is considered that the Post Office is being used as a vehicle for criminal activities. This power exists, and it should be exercised so that the Post Office should not be made available for persons planning or plotting crimes, one or the other.

Are we to take it that the statement made in this House by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs that there is no censorship on letters is not correct?

I did not say that there is a censorship on letters. I say that there is power to make an order in any specific case that letters should be opened.

Will the Minister tell us in how many cases that order has been made for political purposes?

These orders have only been made where the Post Office has been used for criminal activities.

I would like to know is it right when a Minister is answering a question for an official to shout across the House to the Minister and failing to get his ear to shout it to a member of the Government Party? I would like to have that clear. Is the official entitled only to write to the Minister? Can he call across the House to him? I saw that happening. I would like to have your ruling on

I take it that the Deputy heard what was said?

Mr. BOLAND

I did not hear what was said. I could not be expected to. I saw the official shouting across the House.

The Deputy saw a shout!

Mr. BOLAND

I saw the official lean over and call to the Minister for Justice and, failing to catch the Minister's ear, he spoke to Deputy Duggan. Is that abusing the privileges of the House?

The question is whether an official is entitled to speak to anybody other than the Minister?

Mr. BOLAND

Or even to the Minister when answering a question. This is a case when the Minister has not asked him for a reference. It was not a case of giving advice to the Minister when asked. What I object to is that when the Minister is trying to answer a Deputy of the Opposition an official calls to the Minister——

And prompts him.

Mr. BOLAND

Yes, and failing to catch his ear then calls on a member of the Government Party.

There are two questions involved. One is: Is an official entitled to speak to a Minister at all?

Mr. BOLAND

While he is speaking.

First and foremost, the question is: Is an official entitled to speak to a Minister in the House at all? He is. Secondly, is an official entitled to speak to a Minister while the Minister is speaking? He is, if the Minister chooses to allow him, but not in such a way as to interfere with the proceedings of the House. Obviously the official did not do so in this particular instance, because the Deputy did not hear what was said. The third point is: Is an official entitled to speak to any person other than a Minister? An official is present—outside the House—for the purpose of giving whatever assistance he can give when he is asked to give it or when he thinks he can give it to the Minister, and he is entitled to do it in any way which seems proper to him and which does not interfere with the proceedings of the House. That seems to be the standard. It is purely a question of expediency. The officials are present for the purpose of assisting Ministers, and it is a question for the official and the Minister concerned when and how that assistance is to be given. The only restriction which the Chair imposes is that officials, who are present by the courtesy of the House, shall not interfere with the proceedings of the House. On that point the Chair is the sole judge. In this case nothing of the kind appears to have happened.

Mr. BOLAND

I am accepting that, but the point I want to make is that the Minister was getting "bogged."

Mr. BOLAND

He was making a mis-statement of the case.

I beg your pardon. I made no mis-statement.

Having heard the statement of Deputy Boland, that the Minister was getting bogged, and the statement of the Minister that he made no mistake, I certainly think that an official was entitled to do anything he thought fit to do in the circumstances.

To get the Minister out of the bog.

But he is not entitled to push him further into the mire.

I should like the Minister to explain why raids were made on Thomas Finnegan, Coolneha; Anthony Curley and John Carney, and why it is that in certain districts of South Mayo Republicans, or supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party, are arrested on every occasion that any crime is committed. For instance, in Ballinrobe recently there was a case of robbery, which turned out in the end to arise out of a family dispute. Republicans in that area were arrested immediately on suspicion. That has happened on two or three occasions. I should like to have an explanation from the Minister as to the reason for that.

I cannot help if persons who are of suspicious character happen to support the Deputy. I should be glad if persons of suspicious character voted for the Deputy. I should hate to think that they would vote for me.

The word "suspicious" being interpreted by the C.I.D.

As far as the specific persons whom the Deputy mentioned are concerned, I cannot give him any information. I do not know those persons personally, nor do I know the reasons that actuated the raid on their particular houses. I know, generally, that they were persons who were——

All I have got to say in answer to the Minister is that I congratulate him on taking advantage of his position in this House to cast a slur on political opponents.

Will the Minister deal with the question of raids in general? I asked him specific questions as to what was the policy of his Department and why raids were carried out against officials of the Fianna Fáil organisation during the past fortnight.

No raids were carried out on officers of the Fianna Fáil organisation as officers of that organisation. The Deputy may take it definitely that as far as the Fianna Fáil organisation is concerned no raids were carried out on officers of that association nor upon individuals who are members of that association qua officers or members of that association. But if a person is under suspicion for other reasons, it does not follow that by entering the Fianna Fáil organisation he is going to get immunity.

Will the Minister say then that those Civic Guards who seized papers relating to the Fianna Fáil organisation exceeded their instructions, and will he see that such Guards are reprimanded?

I am not aware of any case in which papers of the Fianna Fáil organisation were seized.

Will the Minister make inquiries?

Will the Deputy tell me the case?

I mentioned the case of the Drogheda Fianna Fáil Cumann, all the officers of which were raided.

What the Deputy stated yesterday was that the Civic Guards spent their time reading the files, but he did not say that they seized them. If Deputy Lemass was the author of any of these documents, I suppose they spent their time very profitably. They probably improved their literary style, because I am sure they were documents of very high literary merit.

The Minister having tried to get himself out of the fix, perhaps he would answer the question now and say whether, where this did happen, Civic Guards exceeded their instructions.

The Fianna Fáil Party are recognised as being a constitutional party, and documents relating to the Fianna Fáil organisation are not documents which should be seized. I do not believe they have ever been seized.

Will the Minister state if the Civic Guards have got instructions to raid meetings of supporters of Fianna Fáil when their representatives in this House visit them. On one occasion I went to Cong—I am sure the Minister knows the place well—to hold a meeting of the people I represent. A Civic Guard came into the meeting and insisted on getting the names of every individual who was present. He acted in a very intimidatory fashion, and, when I complained, he refused to leave unless I would put him out by force. When I went to the local barracks I was told the sergeant was not there.

This is the first I heard of the Deputy's complaint. I certainly know nothing about it.

Will the Minister say why Peadar O'Donnell was let out under the First Offenders Act?

Ask the magistrate.

There is a point on which I would like to get some information from the Minister. He accused Deputy Goulding of having made a baseless charge in this House.

I think the Minister himself admitted that two persons did actually visit that Post Office for the purpose of investigation. They were both members, I presume, of the Post Office Investigation Department.

Is a charge baseless when, first of all, the Minister admits that the substance of the charge was that two persons visited a post office?

One of whom represented or was supposed to have said that he was a C.I.D. man. Deputy Goulding raised the question, as he was entitled to do, in this House. It transpires now that two men did visit that office.

They were, in fact, actually investigating officers?

Is it right, therefore, to say that the statement made by Deputy Goulding was baseless when the facts are as the Minister has admitted?

Here is what Deputy Goulding stated:

"I have here a letter, some of which does not make very pleasant reading, but perhaps it will emphasise the fact that some men of this type are apparently in the force yet, and it will possibly make the matter clear if I read some extracts."

There is a definite charge there by Deputy Goulding that a Civic Guard visited this house and behaved badly in this house. That is utterly without foundation, because Civic Guards did not visit the house at all. When you say that a man who was not there at all committed an offence, I say I cannot understand a more baseless charge.

I want to ask the Minister for Justice one question. We have been accused here of quoting cock-and-bull stories, or something like that. We have been told that the Fianna Fáil officers' houses have not been raided qua Fianna Fáil officers. I asked the Minister how he accounts for the coincidence that sixteen residents in the town of Tralee were raided. Of these sixteen, fifteen were followers of Fianna Fáil. They were raided on Guy Fawkes Day. The Minister admits they were raided for arms and ammunition, and that neither arms nor ammunition were found. I want to know by what coincidence it was that fifteen of Fianna Fáil supporters were raided in which nothing in the nature of arms or ammunition was found. The Minister got out of it by saying that guns were found somewhere else. That has nothing to do with the question. Is it not a strange coincidence that in one town, on one day, these fifteen houses were raided and nothing was found?

Not in the least, because a general raid was being carried out in that particular district on that particular day. Arms were found in some houses and not in others. The Deputy has substituted for another Deputy who put a question to me regarding houses in which arms were not found.

Will the Minister say what information he received that resulted in the raid on Deputy Corkery's house?

Is he a suspicious character?

When I raised the question of the film censorship I intended in no way to make a hostile attack upon the censor, but I had evidence that one film, at least, of an undesirable nature got through. If I did not know the character of the person who made the complaint, I would not have brought the matter up here. I have discovered now, through asking this question, that there is a gap and that it is possible for a film to get out uncut although it has been censored. I suggest to the Minister that he ought to use some of his forces to prevent that breach of the law and to prevent films being used uncut after they have been already censored.

The only way that could be done would be if members of the Film Board went to see the film performances. I am aware they do sometimes, and that the censor sometimes goes when he considers there is any danger of a cut film being put on. There have been no cases caught so far. I wonder the Deputy did not send the name of the film and of his informant to the film censor, when he might have achieved some result instead of seeking the publicity here for which there seems to be such a thirst.

I think it is a matter for the Minister for Justice. He could direct some of his forces—the C.I.D. or others—to act in this matter, in which they would be far better occupied than they sometimes are. I am not trying to make any political capital out of this matter, but rather to assist the Minister in carrying out the censorship. He should endeavour to see that films cut are only used in the manner in which they leave the censor, and that in no case should a film be used in an illegitimate manner.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 60.

  • Aird, William P.
  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Bourke, Séamus A.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, John Joseph.
  • Carey, Edmund.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Connolly, Michael P.
  • Cooper, Bryan Ricco.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Crowley, James.
  • Daly, John.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • De Loughrey, Peter.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Egan, Barry M.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Hennigan, John.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Jordan, Michael.
  • Keogh, Myles.
  • Law, Hugh Alexander.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James E.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • Nolan, John Thomas.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, William Archer.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Shaw, Patrick W.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • White, Vincent Joseph.
  • Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Níl

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Broderick, Henry.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cassidy, Archie J.
  • Clery, Michael.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doyle, Edward.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Flinn, Hugo.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Holt, Samuel.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Kent, William R.
  • Kerlin, Frank.
  • Killane, James Joseph.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Kelly, Seán T.
  • O'Leary, William.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • Powell, Thomas P.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (Tipperary).
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Tubridy, John.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P. Doyle. Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen. Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn