Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 21 Feb 1929

Vol. 28 No. 2

Public Business. - Vote No. 2—Oireachtas.

Mr. Blythe

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £750 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta. 1929, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Oireachtais.

That a sum not exceeding £750 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Oireachtas.

The need for this Supplementary Vote arises out of the increased travelling that has been done by Deputies. The figure in the original Estimate was based on the amount of travelling that had been done before the entry of the Fianna Fáil Deputies. But, as a matter of fact, the cost of travelling is more than proportionate to the number of Deputies actually sitting in the House. It is probably due to the fact that, owing to narrow majorities, the attendance of Deputies who have actually taken their seats is better than it was. The result is that instead of an expenditure of £7,800, as was expected, it is likely that the expenditure will amount to about £9,900. To some extent the change made by the Oireachtas (Payment of Members) Act, 1928, has caused an increase, and I feel that some investigation will have to be made into the question of motor charges in certain instances. There has been a great increase also in the travelling of Deputies during the recess. For instance, the railway companies' claim for vouchers for the month of January last, when the Dáil was in recess, amounted to £205. However, the expenditure here depends on the travelling actually done by Deputies.

Mr. Kennedy

In connection with this matter, it strikes me that the Great Southern Railways have reduced fares recently, and that reduction applies to all classes of travelling. I should like to know if they have placed these cheap facilities at the disposal of the Oireachtas. This reduction applies to two days' travelling, which probably could be availed of by Deputies, as it applies to all classes. As to classes, as far as I am concerned, third-class would do me as well as first.

Mr. Flinn

What is the anticipated saving on the other sub-heads?

Mr. Blythe

There were savings such as the following:—Sub-head A, £87, due to a temporary vacancy in the post of Leas-Cheann Comhairle; savings in salaries and allowances to members of the Seanad, arising out of the Seanad elections, £92; travelling expenses of Senators, £260; savings on salaries, wages and allowances of officials and staffs of the Oireachtas, largely due to the reduction in bonus, £661; savings on travelling and incidental expenses of officers and staff of the Oireachtas, £23; saving on witnesses expenses, £20.

Mr. Anthony

As to what Deputy Kennedy has said, would it not be possible to enter into some arrangement with the railway companies by which, on the presentation of a voucher, Deputies would be allowed to travel to and from their constituencies? It strikes me as most unfair on the part of the railway company to expect full fares all the year round for Deputies. I submit that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, or whatever committee is competent to deal with this, should go into the whole question. It is a source of inconvenience to many Deputies to have to go to the office here and get a voucher, and then exchange that voucher at the railway terminus in order to get to their homes. I do not suggest that any Deputies want to travel when they can possibly avoid it. Personally, I have diffidence in travelling on public business unless it accumulates for some time and when it is incumbent on me to visit Government departments, as I do not care for railway travelling. Whatever Committee is competent to deal with the matter should take steps so as to obviate a good deal of trouble and annoyance caused to Deputies. That might be one way to economise. It is not for me to suggest anything but, at the same time, there is a considerable loss of officials' time, not to speak of the time of Deputies, and that loss must be represented somewhere on the balance-sheet of the nation. I suggest that some committee should go into the whole matter, and that a voucher of some sort should be given to a Deputy, thus obviating some of the trouble and cost entailed.

Mr. Flinn

This question was actually raised at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, and it was pointed out that from the beginning the railway companies had refused to give any concession of any sort or kind or description to this House or Government in relation to railway affairs. At that time, of course, the railways were in a completely monopolistic position as far as the transport of the country was concerned. A recommendation went forward from the Committee of Procedure and Privileges to the Minister that now, in the new conditions and as there were alternative means of transport, the question of fares for Dáil members should be revised under the new and altered conditions. It was suggested that possibly they might give contracts at prices which otherwise they would not have given, or, at any rate, that they would recognise the position had changed, and that they would have to give a commercial price for the services that they rendered relative to the other alternative methods. I would like to know now whether those recommendations have been dealt with, whether they have been put to the railway companies, and whether any result has come from them.

Mr. Cassidy

I believe if the Department of Finance approached the railway companies, the companies would be prepared to give special facilities so far as Deputies' tickets are concerned. I notice that when a Deputy gets a travelling voucher handed to him, it is mentioned on the voucher that it is for a first class return ticket at ordinary fare. Some Deputies find it possible to visit their constituencies on a Saturday and return on a Tuesday. According to the voucher issued, the Deputy gets a first class return ticket for a month. I believe the Department could make arrangements for the issue of week-end tickets to Deputies who find it convenient to visit their constituents at week-ends. I understand the railway companies are prepared to give out these week-end tickets at single fare and one-third available for ordinary passengers, and if the Department of Finance made application, I believe the railway companies would be prepared to give them these facilities.

Mr. Moore

Are we to understand from the Minister's remarks that an investigation may possibly be required, and that he is of opinion that travelling facilities afforded to Deputies are abused, or that there is too much zeal shown by Deputies in attending to their constituencies?

Mr. Blythe

I did not suggest that the travelling facilities given to Deputies were being abused, although there has been, in respect to a certain class of claims, an extraordinary increase since the Act of 1928 was passed. These are claims in connection with travelling between the railway station in the Deputy's constituency and his residence. There has been an extraordinary increase there. However, that is a matter that can be examined and that I shall have to examine further.

I do not know what is exactly the present position in regard to the latest attempt to get railway companies to give some sort of concession to members of the Oireachtas. But I do know that time after time applications of one sort or another had been made to them, and they have consistently refused to give any concessions whatsoever. I think the position of the railway companies in this matter is not peculiar. All sorts of institutions charge more in any case in which the Government is paying than where private individuals are paying. I do not think it would be possible to get rid of the present voucher system. Even with this system, at least one or two cases came to the knowledge of the Department of Finance, on the report of the railway companies, where Deputies had made a wrong use of the vouchers, and where tickets issued in exchange for these vouchers were actually travelled on by people who were not members of the Oireachtas. That happened in one or two instances, and that is just enough, I think, to make it necessary to retain the present system. It might be that if we could do without the arrangement that exists a certain amount of official time would be saved, but on consideration of the matter some time ago, it was very strongly felt that an arrangement like the present one was a necessary arrangement.

It has been recognised that where a Deputy or a Senator claims that he is travelling on public business he should be entitled to have his expenses paid. I think it is only fair, where a man has definite business with a department, that it should be recognised that that is practically as much a duty cast upon him by his membership of the Dáil as attending in the House. Members must come with deputations or to represent some urgent business to a department, and I think it is entirely reasonable that in these cases expenses should be paid. I have, however, had my attention called to certain cases where Deputies or Senators came up with a sort of regularity on a particular day of the month that seemed to indicate it was not entirely public business that brought them. I was proposing, in view of the fact that the cost in regard to travelling had definitely increased, that this matter should be looked into, and if I see a case I will make representations to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Question put and agreed to.