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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Feb 1929

Vol. 28 No. 4

Estimates for Public Services. - Local Elections (Dublin) Bill, 1929—Second Stage.

I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. Act No. 22 of 1926 arranged that the Commissioners should remain in charge of the city of Dublin and in charge of the Dublin Union until 31st March, 1929. The Local Elections Act, 1927, which arranged for the local elections which were held in 1928, provided that such local bodies as existed in the county of Dublin would not have elections until 31st March, 1929, in order to bring all local bodies with any connection either with the city or county of Dublin into accord with one another. It will be remembered that in the passing of the Local Elections Act, 1927, exception was taken to the fact that the early re-establishment of the council in Dublin and the council in Cork was not being arranged for. Deputies on the opposite benches have taken exception to the introduction of this Bill on the grounds that, as Deputy O'Kelly stated on the last day this matter was discussed here, a very definite promise was given by the Minister for Local Government that the Local Government Bill for Dublin would be introduced in time to enable elections to be held, and perhaps a municipal council for Dublin, or Greater Dublin, to be elected in the month of June of this year, and that that promise was being broken. The suggestion made by Deputy O'Kelly is not correct. I said when dealing with the Local Elections Act, 1927, that it was my hope that the proposals of the Executive Council with regard to Greater Dublin would be put forward before 31st March, 1929. In response to Deputy Lemass, who pressed for, I think, a rather early decision in the matter, I said that in expressing that hope I was stretching that hope. I said that I thought the elected council ought not to be restored in Cork until our proposals for Greater Dublin had been tabled, and more or less until the council had been re-established in Dublin.

It will also, however, be recollected that I stated that if for any reason of local interest, or on account of local proposals in Cork, it was possible to deal with the Cork Bill earlier than I anticipated, I would allow nothing to stand in the way of proceeding more rapidly with the Cork proposal; in fact subsequent developments in connection with the Cork proposal were such that I had to decide to go ahead with the Cork Bill, and the Cork Bill has now been passed. The changes in connection with our proposal to go ahead with Cork and, generally, the magnitude of the problem to be examined with Dublin, where a very large number of local bodies are concerned, and the disentangling of their finances, their administrative organisations and their general engineering schemes, require very careful investigation and require a certain amount of further consideration before definite proposals can be put together. These matters result in my not being able to bring forward or to promise to bring forward at the present moment, proposals that would enable the Greater Dublin position to be dealt with before 31st March, 1929.

In fact I propose in this Bill that powers will be given to allow the present state of affairs to remain in Dublin city and county until a date not later than 30th September, 1930. My reason for this is that if we recollect the position with regard to the Cork Bill we will remember that the Cork Bill took eight months to be considered by the Oireachtas. The Dublin Bill may not take so long, but I would be again, I think, stretching my hope now—though I will try to so arrange it—that I can ask the House for the First Reading of the Dublin Bill before the Summer Recess, so that the Bill will be in the hands of all interested in the matter during the summer. My anticipation, then, is that the Bill will be dealt with during the Autumn Session by the Dáil, and perhaps during the Spring Session by the Seanad. But I cannot hope at all that the Dublin Bill will be considered in such time that there will be set up, at a much earlier date than 30th September, 1930, the new arrangements in the city and county. As I say, there are very involved financial matters to be taken into consideration, and it would not be giving the new bodies that are to be set up a proper chance if they were elected at any other time of the year than, say, the summer. I therefore move the Second Reading of the Bill.

I was rather surprised to hear the Minister assert, as he has asserted, that a definite promise was not given by the Government that the term of office of the existing Commissioners in Dublin would not be extended beyond the 31st March next. I must admit that I have not here with me any official record in which that promise is stated, because it did not enter my head that the Minister would deny that such a promise was given. Certainly, whether it was given in so many words or not, during the entire of last year the House was left under the impression that the Bill regulating the future of the city of Dublin would be introduced and be in the hands of Deputies before 31st March. Now we are told that it may be introduced and pass the First Reading before the Summer Recess, and even in that connection the Minister has told us that in saying that he feels he may be stretching his hope to breakingpoint. Now we are opposed, and very strongly and vehemently opposed, to this Bill to extend the period of office of the Commissioners. We might perhaps be prepared to modify our opposition if there was on the Order Paper, or in the hands of Deputies, the Management of Dublin Bill, which will possibly appear later on in the year. There is no justification whatever, I think, for the very long delay which has taken place in its preparation and introduction. The Government set up in 1925, I think, the Greater Dublin Commission, and its Report was submitted in 1926. We have not yet had an assurance from any Minister that that Report has been even considered by the Executive Council. In fact, when the great Cork City Bill was under discussion we were definitely told by the President that the report had not been considered. It seems an extraordinary thing that the Government would go to the expense of setting up a Commission to pursue a very detailed investigation and prepare a Report, which has been printed and circulated, merely for the purpose of having it pigeonholed. It is also much more extraordinary that the Government which set up that Commission, a Commission which reported on the general principles of city government, actually introduced and passed through this House a Bill dealing with the government of another city without having considered the first Report. It is all the more extraordinary, in view of the fact that in every case in which the Commission expressed an opinion on the principles of city government the actual decision of the Government was contrary to it.

We do not deny that there is a case, which can be put forward, for the appointment of Commissioners in special circumstances. It happens occasionally that when popularly-elected bodies have continued in operation for a long period, certain abuses arise, and grow in volume, with which these popularly-elected bodies are not capable of effectively dealing. Commissioners, civil servants, having no direct responsibility to the people, appointed to remedy these abuses, should be appointed for a very limited and clearly-defined term, and, as soon as their special work is completed, they should be removed, and the control of affairs given back, in all cases, into the hands of the people's representatives. Whether such abuses did or did not exist in Dublin or Cork in 1924 does not arise here. But if they did exist, I maintain that that long since has been remedied, and we can quote the words of the Commissioners themselves in that connection. There was, perhaps—it was alleged anyway that there was an abundance of officials, that staffs had become top-heavy, that people whose period of utility had expired and who should have retired on pension were continued on full pay. In that connection the Commissioners reported that they had reorganised the various departments of the Corporation, and that this reorganisation scheme had been completed. As a result they claim there has been a considerable increase in efficiency and in economy effected. In so far as that abuse existed in Dublin, by 31st March, 1927, that abuse had been eradicated. If that be the reason for the Commissioners' appointment, that reason had ceased to operate on that date. It was also alleged that there were other abuses, that there was considerable laxity in the awarding of sick pay. Again, I say, if that abuse existed, we have it on the words of the Commissioners that on 31st March, 1927, it no longer existed. The same applies to many other matters mentioned— certain irregularities in the keeping of store accounts and other minor points. There were, no doubt, also improvements capable of being effected in certain other departments of the Corporation. They have undoubtedly increased the efficiency of the method by which refuse is disposed of, and by which certain other normal Corporation functions are carried out. But these are matters which could have been done, and that I have no doubt whatever would have been done, by an elected council if that council were in operation. Any special reason which existed for the appointment of Commissioners, and for taking control of municipal affairs out of the hands of the council, had ceased to operate two years or eighteen months ago, and if the Government were paying the attention to the matter which they should have been, they would then have set about preparing the Management of Dublin Bill, which could have been introduced last year, and which could have passed through this House, to enable the new council to take the place of the Commissioners on 31st March next, when the period of office of the Commissioners expires.

I admit that there may have been faults in connection with the administration of the old Corporation, and there possibly always will be. Democracy has its faults. No perfect system has yet been devised. This House has its faults, but serious as these may be at times, they are not nearly as serious as the faults which attach themselves to a dictatorate, and that is what, in fact, exists in Dublin at the moment. It becomes a matter of particular seriousness when we find these Commissioners, in the exercise of the normal functions of the Corporation, increasing the municipal debt by fresh borrowing. They in fact, I think, increased the municipal debt by over £1,000,000, and the ratepayers of the city will have to be paying the debt charges in connection with that sum over a very long period. I do not say that money should not have been borrowed. In fact, I say it should have been borrowed. The greater part of it was expended in the financing of housing schemes, but the elected representatives of the people should have had the decision as to whether or not that liability should be placed upon the citizens of Dublin.

When there is an elected council and public representatives on it the business which it does and the work it proposes to do receive much greater publicity than attaches to the work done by the Commissioners and public interest is much more keenly aroused. I do not allege that the Commissioners have in any way invited secrecy or attempted to preserve secrecy in respect to their actions, but in fact it has worked out that way. People all complain that they have had very little information given to them as to what the Commissioners were doing, and that consequently they are not informed as to the present financial position of the municipality. The work of the Commissioners during the last two years and during the period for which it is now proposed to continue their term of office will be the normal work of the elected council. It will not be work of any special nature whatever, but just the carrying on of the ordinary administration of the city which should be in the hands of the people's elected representatives.

This Bill proposes to extend the term of office for another eighteen months. Even if some extension is justified, as it undoubtedly is under the circumstances, because even if the Bill were introduced to-morrow it could not be passed before the 31st March, nevertheless we think the period mentioned here is much too long. If the Government have, in fact, made up their minds as to the principles which are to operate in the government of Dublin in the future, there is no reason why the Bill cannot be introduced in this session and passed through this House during the present year. The general principles of city government have been discussed here already in relation to the Cork City Bill, and if the same principles are to apply in the case of Dublin, then there need not be the same prolonged discussion concerning them. Of course there will have to be many other matters taken into consideration here, because it is proposed not merely to alter the system of government, but also to extend the area.

I am convinced that the Bill, if introduced now, could be in operation certainly by this time next year. It seems, however, that the Government have been putting off this matter from day to day, and have not yet reached the stage of laying down the heads of the Bill which they will finally introduce. It seems to me that they have been lacking in their duty in this connection, and in consequence of that fact the House should, by the rejection of this Bill, demonstrate its resentment. This Bill is one that cannot be justified on any ground whatever except the laziness of the Department of Local Government and their failure to deal with this matter of the Report of the Greater Dublin Commission and the introduction of a City Management Bill.

I should like to ask the Minister when the accounts of the Commissioners were last audited and if the accounts ever have been audited since the Commissioners were appointed.

I am not aware of any arrears in the auditing of the accounts of the Commissioners. In reply to Deputy Lemass, I have simply to reiterate that whereas in dealing with this particular matter in November, 1927, I anticipated we would deal with Dublin before Cork, circumstances, the possibility which I referred to, having arisen, we dealt with the Cork Bill before the Management of Dublin Bill. Very many more principles are involved in the proposals that will be put before the Oireachtas in connection with Greater Dublin than are involved in those of Cork. In Cork you were simply dealing with one local body over the whole area. In Dublin you are dealing with a very large number of local bodies, and, as I say, their whole administrative machine and the whole of their financial past have to be dealt with, regularised, and harmonised in the proposals that will come before you.

In connection with the city of Dublin there is also the whole question of poor relief, which is only in a very small way dealt with by the Greater Dublin Commission. It has been dealt with separately by the Commission on Poor Law. The whole of that side of the administration in the city and county of Dublin has to be dealt with in connection with the Greater Dublin proposals.

If the Oireachtas spent eight months in dealing with the Cork Bill it might take at least the same length of time to deal with the Dublin Bill. It is very easy for Deputy Lemass to say that if we have decided what we are going to do with regard to Dublin, within the next couple of weeks legislation dealing with the matter could be put before you. Legislation is not as simple as all that, particularly legislation dealing with local government. In connection with the city of Dublin and the townships there is a very large number of local Acts, all of which will have to be carefully examined before the proposals can be put before the Oireachtas in final form. The Deputy admits that he cannot put his hand on where a definite promise was given that legislation would be in order before the 31st March, 1929, but the records of this House are perfectly kept at considerable expense, and before a Minister is charged with breaking an explicit promise the Deputy might go to the trouble of seeing that the statement he was making was quite correct. The position, as far as my commitments in connection with that particular matter are concerned, will be found in the Debates that took place on the 11th and 17th November, 1927.

I do not know that it is necessary to repudiate laziness on the part of the Department of Local Government. If less time had been spent unnecessarily and obstructively by Deputy Lemass and his colleagues in the summer of last year on measures in connection with local government —the Seanad Electoral Act and some of the Constitution Acts—we might have had time in the Oireachtas to deal earlier with the Cork Bill and more time in the Department to deal with matters that arise in connection with Greater Dublin.

The Deputy has explained that matters dealing with the Commissioners' administration do not properly arise here, but he charges the Commissioners at the same time with putting a heavy load of debt upon the city of Dublin. The weight of any load of debt that has been put by the Commissioners upon the city of Dublin is due to the fact that the Commissioners have faced, in a practical and systematic way, the problem of dealing with the shortage of houses in the city, and they have made a substantial contribution to the solving of that particular problem.

I would like to ask the Minister if any of the work of examining the Acts under which these various local government bodies operate has yet been done, or is it the position that the whole matter was merely shelved for the last three years and is now being resurrected?

The whole matter has not been shelved. I explained in 1927 that I had a special committee dealing with the financial, engineering and administrative side of this matter, and thoroughly examining it in relation to the definite recommendations contained in the Commissioners' Report, and of the practical solution of the particular problem that lies in the city. In so far as that particular work goes, the whole position has been fully surveyed and reported on. When these matters have been put in proper array and instructions are issued to the draftsman for the preparation of Acts of legislation, there falls to the draftsman a very intricate problem. It will fall to the lot of the staff in the draftsman's office to see that these rather important intricacies that may be involved in the local Acts are fully examined.

Have instructions been issued to the draftsman yet?

Question put. The Dáil divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 57.

Aird, William P.Alton, Ernest Henry.Beckett, James Walter.Bennett, George Cecil.Blythe, Ernest.Bourke, Séamus A.Brodrick, Seán.Byrne, John Joseph.Cole, John James.Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.Conlan, Martin.Connolly, Michael P.Cooper, Bryan Ricco.Cosgrave, William T.Craig, Sir James.Crowley, James.Davis, Michael.Doherty, Eugene.Dolan, James N.Doyle, Peadar Seán.Duggan, Edmund John.Dwyer, James.Egan, Barry M.Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.Fitzgerald, Desmond.Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.Good, John.Gorey, Denis J.Haslett, Alexander.Hassett, John J.Heffernan, Michael R.Hennessy, Michael Joseph.Hennessy, Thomas.

Henry, Mark.Hogan, Patrick (Galway).Holohan, Richard.Jordan, Michael.Kelly, Patrick Michael.Law, Hugh Alexander.Leonard, Patrick.Lynch, Finian.Mathews, Arthur Patrick.McDonogh, Martin.Mulcahy, Richard.Murphy, James E.Nolan, John Thomas.O'Connell, Richard.O'Connor, Bartholomew.O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.O'Hanlon, John F.O'Leary, Daniel.O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.O'Sullivan, Gearoid.O'Sullivan, John Marcus.Reynolds, Patrick.Rice, Vincent.Roddy, Martin.Shaw, Patrick W.Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).Thrift, William Edward.Tierney, Michael.Vaughan, Daniel.White, John.White, Vincent Joseph.Wolfe, George.

Níl

Allen, Denis.Anthony, Richard.Blaney, Neal.Boland, Gerald.Boland, Patrick. Carney, Frank.Cassidy, Archie J.Clancy, Patrick.Clery, Michael.Colbert, James.Colohan, Hugh.Cooney, Eamon.Corish, Richard.Corry, Martin John.Crowley, Fred. Hugh.Crowley, Tadhg.Davin, William.Derrig, Thomas.Doyle, Edward.Everett, James.Fahy, Frank.Flinn, Hugo.Gorry, Patrick J.Goulding, John.Hayes, Seán.Hogan, Patrick (Clare).Holt, Samuel.Houlihan, Patrick.Jordan, Stephen.

Bourke, Daniel.Brady, Seán.Briscoe, Robert.Broderick, Henry.Buckley, Daniel. Kennedy, Michael Joseph.Kerlin, Frank.Killane, James Joseph.Killilea, Mark.Kilroy, Michael.Lemass, Seán F.Little, Patrick John.McEllistrim, Thomas.MacEntee, Seán.Moore, Séamus.Mullins, Thomas.O'Connell, Thomas J.O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.O'Kelly, Seán T.O'Leary, William.O'Reilly, Matthew.Ruttledge, Patrick J.Ryan, James.Sexton, Martin.Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).Smith, Patrick.Tubridy, John.Walsh, Richard.

Tellers:— Tá, Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle; Níl, Deputies G.
Boland and Allen.
Motion declared carried.
Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 28th February.
Barr
Roinn