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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 18 Apr 1929

Vol. 29 No. 5

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 55.—Land Commission.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £342,366 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íochta an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníochta i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig Choimisiún Talmhan na hEireann (44 agus 45 Vict., e. 49, a. 46 agus c. 71, a. 4; 48 agus 49 Vict., c. 73, a. 17, 18 agus 20; 53 agus 54 Vict., c. 49, a. 2; 54 agus 55 Vict., c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38 agus c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; Uimh. 27 agus Uimh. 42 de 1923, Uimh. 25 de 1925, Uimh. 11 de 1926, agus Uimh. 19 de 1927).

That a sum not exceeding £342,366 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Irish Land Commission (44 and 45 Vict., c. 49, s. 46, and c. 71, s. 4; 48 and 49 Vict., c. 73; s.s. 17, 18 and 20; 53 and 54 Vict., c. 49, s. 2; 54 and 55 Vict., c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38, and c. 56; 9 Edw., 7, c. 42; Nos. 27 and 42 of 1923, 25 of 1925, 11 of 1926, and 19 of 1927).

The Estimates for the financial year 1929-30 show a net decrease of £204,211. Compared with the Estimate for the year 1928-29, that is a very substantial reduction, and I am sure it will meet with the approval of those Deputies who are so anxious for economies in the administration of Government Departments. The decrease is effected under the following sub-heads. Under sub-head A—salaries, wages and allowances, there is a decrease of £12,364. Under sub-head B—travelling expenses, there is a decrease of £2,000. Under sub-head E—solicitor's branch, salaries and allowances, there is a decrease of £268. Under sub-head I—improvement of estates, &c., there is a decrease of £161,550, and under sub-head J—advance to meet deficiency of income from untenanted land purchased under the Land Act of 1923, there is a decrease of £12,000, while under sub-head M—deficiencies on realisation by Government departments of Land Bonds—the decrease is £2,000. Perhaps, for the sake of clearness, it would be better if I were to take the sub-heads separately and explain the nature of the economies effected in the case of each.

Before I proceed to explain the economies effected under sub-head A, it would be well, perhaps, if I were to point out that there are two printer's errors in regard to details under this sub-head. One occurs on page 225, relating to the examiners of title, in respect of which item the italicised figure, £850, in the monetary column for 1929-30 should not appear. It should be substituted by a dash. As the amount has not been included in the total it does not call for any further adjustment. The second printer's error occurs on page 226 in respect of the item temporary inspectors; in the "numbers" column for 1928-29. Instead of 9 the figure should be 29, the figure "2" having been dropped in the final printing. No adjustment, however, is called for, as the correct figure 29 was taken in calculating the total numbers and cost for 1928-29.

The reduction of the Estimate under this head is due mainly to a decrease of 24 in the total staff, a reduction from 704 to 680, for which provision is made, and the substitution of higher paid officers on retirement and death by those of lower scales. A decrease in the staff personnel has been effected by the non-filling of vacancies where such a course could be adopted without serious detriment to the interests of the service, and by discharge on the same conditions of temporary officers. When the Land Commission started the administration of the Land Act of 1923 it was necessary to employ temporary inspectors for the purpose of inspecting and estimating the value of land and advising the Commissioners in regard to various affairs in respect of which local inquiries were essential. A number of temporary inspectors were recruited in 1924-25, subject to discharge on a month's notice, and 32 of those were provided for in the Estimate for 1925-26. The number has been gradually decreased, and for the financial year under review it is estimated that 15 temporary inspectors with the 4 permanent officers of the Land Commission described in footnote (k) will suffice for the purpose of supplementing the permanent force of inspectors, who number 56, in the task of performing the necessary inspectorial work of the Commission. As a result of a very complete reorganisation of the work, it is hoped that no appreciable diminution in the progress of operations will result from the decrease in the number of temporary officers for which provision has been made this year. This decrease will also help to level up the relationship between the state of the outdoor work and that of headquarters.

Under sub-head B—travelling expenses—there is a reduction of £2,000. The reduction under this subhead is due almost exclusively to a decrease in the personnel of the inspecting staff. Under sub-head E —solicitor's branch, salaries and allowances—there is a decrease of £268. This decrease is due to the decrease in the salary of the present holder of the post of solicitor as compared with that of his predecessor, who died in the last financial year. Under sub-head I—improvements of estates—Deputies will observe there is a very large reduction in comparison with last year's Estimate—a reduction approximately of £160,000. Perhaps I had better first of all explain how this money is spent. This sub-head provides for expenditure on the improvement of estates, the division of untenanted land into new holdings, or the enlargement of existing holdings and their equipment, with fences, drains and roads, and, where necessary, with buildings, and the division and draining of turbary, etc., and also the employer's contribution towards health and unemployment insurance of employees on improvement works. The amount for these purposes is £150,000. Provision is also made for the acquisition of tenants' interests, for the assistance of migration, payments under the Workmen's Compensation Act, livestock insurance and the upkeep of nurses' cottages.

The Congested Districts Board purchased for the accommodation of the Lady Dudley nurses certain cottages on lands now the property of the Land Commission. There are 16 cottages. Of these seven are in County Mayo, three in County Donegal; three in County Galway, two in County Kerry and one in Roscommon. The Board let these cottages at certain rents and took responsibility for their upkeep and maintenance. That responsibility has been transferred to the Land Commission. In the Estimate for 1928-29 a sum of £12,520 was included for the repayment of loans obtained by the Congested Districts Board from the Board of Works. These loans have now been redeemed, and consequently no amount in respect of them has been included in the Estimate for this year. Last year, although the amount of £323,200 was estimated for for carrying out improvement works on estates acquired under the 1923 Act the sum of £226,000 was actually spent. The amount required was over-estimated.

I want to explain, in passing, that it is very difficult to estimate accurately at the beginning of the financial year what amount would be required for the purpose of improving estates within a particular year. A good deal depends on the rate at which untenanted land is acquired. Very frequently difficulties arise that are not at all anticipated by the inspector when preparing his estimate. Objections may be raised that could not have been anticipated by the inspector. Innumerable difficulties of that kind arise in the course of a year, so that hitherto it was almost impossible to estimate accurately what amount would be required for carrying out improvement works in the year. As a matter of fact, the Estimate has exceeded the actual expenditure for most years, with the exception of 1927-28. This year we have effected a considerable reduction in the amount estimated for improvement works. That reduction has been brought about, first of all, for reasons of economy, and, secondly, because it is intended that during the coming year there will be greater concentration on the work of vesting tenanted land, and less concentration on the work of acquiring and distributing untenanted land. Also it is proposed during the coming year to abolish almost completely the temporary convenience agreements which were resorted to in the year 1925 as an emergency measure. These agreements, while undoubtedly they have enabled us to divide land much more rapidly than we could otherwise have done, have had the effect of really magnifying another problem, the problem of vesting, which we heard so much about recently.

We also experience considerable difficulty in getting allottees, put in under these temporary convenience agreements, to sign the permanent agreements when they are subsequently presented to them. It is really necessary to substitute permanent agreements for temporary convenience agreements in order that the allottees may be enabled to borrow money for the purpose of developing their holdings —to borrow money, for instance, from the Agricultural Credit Corporation or the ordinary joint stock banks. A very close estimate has been made this year, consonant with the available staff and the existing conditions, but it is hoped by very careful supervision to make the reduced amount cover all the necessary improvements on the allotments of untenanted land during the year.

The next decrease is under sub-head J—Advance to meet deficiency of income from untenanted land purchased under the 1923 Land Act. The amount is £12,000. Provision is made under this sub-head to meet the deficiency of income from untenanted lands purchased under the Act of 1923 in respect of payment to the Land Bond Fund of interest at 4¾ per cent. on bonds issued for the purchase of the lands pending their division and vesting in tenant purchasers, and of payment of rates, herds' wages and other outgoings chargeable against the lands purchased. Owing to the improvement in the income derived from untenanted land the Estimate has been reduced to £13,000, being a decrease of £12,000 as compared with the Estimate for 1928-29. The deficiency in income from untenanted land acquired under the Land Acts of 1923 and 1927 arose largely through arrears that allottees did not pay punctually. The half-yearly instalment of interest was due on their parcels on the 1st May and the 1st November. The deficiency has to be made good by the Land Commission in order to pay the 4¾ per cent. on the Land Bonds issued for the purchase of the lands. The second reason is the two months' interest in advance. The payment to the Land Bond Fund on bonds issued for the purchase of estates must provide interest calculated up to the dividend days, 1st January and 1st July, while the payments due by the tenants provide interest up to the gale days, 1st of May and 1st November only. There is thus a gap of two months' interest to be bridged, and the Land Commission has to provide the money. Under Section 28 of the 1923 Land Act, each tenant purchaser of a tenanted holding subject to the standard purchase annuity is obliged to pay the two months' interest in advance with his first annuity payment. In the case of untenanted land the two months' interest would be recouped to the Land Commission when the lands become vested in the allottees. In every case, of course, this money is recouped eventually to the Land Commission.

As regards rates, herds' wages and other outgoings, during the time between the purchase of the untenanted land and the subsequent division between allottees, the Land Commission is responsible for the rates, herds' wages and other outgoings, in addition to the interest on the purchase money. It is not always possible to put allottees in possession or to let the land simultaneously with the taking over by the Land Commission. Other circumstances also arise to necessitate the retention of lands. The loss, as a matter of fact, is very small. Steps are taken to put the allottees into possession immediately the Land Commission take over the land.

Sub-head M—Deficiencies on Realisation by Government Departments of Land Bonds—shows a decrease of £2,000. Provision is made in this Estimate to meet deficiencies caused by the redemption of Government charges and by the transfer of Land Bonds at face value. In the case of the redemption of Board of Works Loans the bonds received by the Board of Works have only their market value and the arrangement is made to provide for the difference between the face value and the amount realised by the bonds. Now, increases have taken place under the following subheads:—C—Incidental Expenses— £240. The increase of £240 is due to increased activities resulting in additional advertising, lock-spitting, and so on. Deputies will understand that a close estimate under this sub-head is absolutely impossible. The amount, however, is small. The increase under sub-head D—Office of Public Trustee—is £41. That is due to increments to the staff and to the provision of £15 for incidentals. The increase is very small.

Under sub-head F—Solicitor's branch, incidental expenses—the increase is £1,400. That is due to the anticipation of increased activities in respect of the sale of defaulters' holdings which will result in additional advertising, legal expenses and out-of-pocket expenses. The sub-head generally includes the costs of the Land Commission solicitor in proceedings taken by him in the Circuit and District Courts of Dublin, and also costs for proceedings for resumption of holdings and appeals against prices fixed by the Land Commission. Sub-head H—payment under Section 11 (7) of the Land Act, 1923—shows an increase of £7,500. This sub-head provides, first of all, for the payment of interest at 4½ per cent. and sinking fund at ¼ per cent. on Land Bonds issued in respect of the contributions by the State to the standard price in sales under the Act of 1923, calculated at 10 per cent. and added to the standard price on which the purchasing tenants' annuity is calculated; secondly, for the purposes of the Costs Fund, Section 5 (1); and thirdly, for the State contribution of one-eleventh to the price determined under Section 52 of the 1923 Act in National Land Bank sales.

Sub-head K indicates an increase of £8,000. The sub-head deals with payments under Sections 42 and 46 of the Land Act, 1927. The money under this sub-head is required in connection with the re-sale of land in Committee cases and in connection with Land Bank estates. There is really very little to say in connection with this matter. I think Deputies understand the reasons for the increase in these particular cases. These cases have caused us a good deal of trouble during last year, and they have also occupied the time of a number of inspectors. The inquiries that have to be made in connection with these cases are very exhaustive, and sometimes it is exceedingly difficult to get the information we re-require. Most of the Land Bank cases —practically all—have been disposed of. We are just now beginning to deal with the Committee cases, and I anticipate by the end of the year that practically all of the cases will have been disposed of. As regards sub-head G—contribution towards charge for excess stock—that is a standard charge, and it remains the same year after year.

Deputies will note that there is an increase of £31,210 in the Appropriations-in-Aid, due to the addition of excess annuities of an amount of £30,000 hitherto paid into the Purchase Annuities Fund. I do not think there is any other matter under that sub-head that requires explanation.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary explain where the £134,500 under sub-head G goes?

This sub-head provides for the contribution paid by the Free State for the cost of interest and sinking fund and excess stock under the 1903 and 1909 Acts. Under the ultimate financial settlement with the British Government this has been fixed at £134,500, and it is a standard charge. It remains stationary from year to year. Last year, in winding-up the debate on the Land Commission Estimates, I gave figures to show the progress that had been made in the acquisition and the distribution of land under the various Land Acts. I also instituted a comparison between the rate of progress since the passing of the 1923 Act and the rate of progress prior to that. When I say rate of progress, I mean progress in regard to the distribution of untenanted land, and the vesting of tenanted land. I have since been charged by some Deputies with practically overwhelming them with statistics on that occasion. To-night I propose to treat them very gently, and will merely give them the figures relating to land activities during last year.

I assume for the purpose of this debate that Deputies will read these figures in relation to the figures and statistics quoted so exhaustively last year. As regards the direct sales between landlords and tenants under the 1903 and the 1909 Acts, the great bulk of these have now been completed. I am speaking of direct sales between landlords and tenants. Advances made since 1st April, 1923, amount to £3,692,000 for 14,370 holdings and the area is 436,000 acres. I said a moment ago that the great bulk of these cases have now been completed. Only cases that present very special difficulties remain to be dealt with. The advances made last year were very small, amounting to £32,000 in respect of 110 holdings, comprising 4,200 acres. With regard to the re-sale of estates previously purchased by the Estates Commissioners and the C.D. Board, during the past year an area of 145,000 acres vested in 5,100 purchasers has been dealt with for a total re-sale price of £849,000. This is slightly greater than the area vested in the previous year, which was 143,000 acres, and it is well above the yearly average of the previous five years, which was 110,000 acres, vested in 2,960 purchasers, for a total re-sale price of £645,000 per annum. Special efforts are being made at the moment to expedite the re-sale of the estates purchased prior to the Land Act of 1923, and the staff engaged on the vesting has been strengthened. That refers to activities under the 1903 and 1909 Acts.

With regard to the 1923 and 1927 Land Acts, a very considerable increase in the rate of vesting tenanted land has been made. During last year 3,785 holdings, comprising an area of 132,618 acres, and representing a total price of £1,104,282, were vested. The number of holdings vested under this heading during the previous year was 2,067. During the past year the rate of vesting has been nearly doubled. Steps have also been taken in this connection to strengthen the staff engaged on the vesting of tenanted land and special efforts are being made to expedite the rate of vesting during the coming year.

On a point of explanation, will the Parliamentary Secretary inform us how these figures compare with the figures that he gave to Deputy Derrig?

What are the figures?

Taking it year by year, he stated that for the year ended 31st December, 1927, the judicial holdings vested were 406 and the non-judicial holdings 267, making a total of 673. For the year to the 31st December, 1928, the judicial holdings vested were 2,661 and non-judicial 1,347, making a total of 4,008. I wonder how those figures compare with the statement now made?

The figures quoted by the Deputy are up to the 31st December last year. The figures I am quoting have been brought up to the 31st March of this year. They are the figures up to the end of the last financial year, and the Deputy apparently forgets——

What Deputy Corry wants to know is whether your figures are for the ordinary year 1928 or the financial year.

I am giving figures for the financial year 1928-1929. As regards the acquisition and division of the untenanted land under the 1923-1927 Acts, during the past year 54,854 acres have been acquired, bringing the total to 276,000 acres up to March last. This figure includes National Land Bank holdings, Committee lands, and resumed holdings. Of this area over 200,000 acres have been already divided amongst nearly 10,000 allottees, and the division of the remaining 76,000 acres is proceeding as rapidly as possible. With regard to the acquisition of further untenanted land, the price has been fixed for an area of 72,000 acres, which will shortly be purchased. In addition, offers have been made or the lands gazetted in respect of 93,000 acres, and inquiries as to suitability for purchase have been made in respect of 700,000 acres, of which 250,000 acres have been inspected.

In other words, to summarise the figures since 1923, the Land Commission has vested under the various Land Acts approximately 41,000 holdings, comprising an area of 1,400,000 acres, at a total purchase price of £10,300,000. During the same period over 330,000 acres of untenanted land have been divided and the allottees placed in occupation of it. Including the 200,000 acres divided under the 1923 Act, a total area of 690,000 acres of untenanted land has been inspected under that Act. It certainly represents an exceptionally good output from the inspectorial staff. These figures give a very clear indication of the enormous amount of work that has been done since the year 1923, particularly since the coming into operation of the 1923 Act. It shows quite clearly that a much greater volume of work has been done since that year than was done at any prior period. I have stated already —I did so last year—that untenanted land was being acquired and distributed at the present time at at least three times a faster pace than at any other period during the operation of the Land Acts. That statement still holds good. In reviewing the work of the Land Commission it has to be borne in mind that only less than 50 per cent. of the total staff is employed directly on the work of acquisition, distribution and vesting of land, the remaining staff being engaged on the ancillary work of collection, accounting and correspondence.

Deputies should also remember that the Land Commission is, in strictness, not comparable with other Government Departments where the greater amount of the administrative work is carried out by correspondence. The functions and powers of the Land Commission are clearly defined by statutes, and the vital work with which it is charged has relation to the putting of these statutes into effect in the manner prescribed and not to the disposal of correspondence. Unfortunately, however, there is a constant and heavy flow of letters, the average being somewhere about 3,000 a week. Last year the Land Commission dealt with at least 150,000 letters. That, I believe, is the actual figure. Personal inquiries and Parliamentary Questions have to be dealt with and the amount of official time that has to be devoted to them is very considerable and altogether out of proportion to the results achieved through their medium. The machinery of the Land Commission and the provisions of the enactments which it has to administer are in themselves very effective safeguards of the interests of all parties, and it is regrettable that this fact is not more fully appreciated. If the Land Commission were staffed entirely by temporary forces, without restriction as to numbers, it might be possible to make quicker progress with the completion of its main work, but where a large staff of permanent and experienced officers are involved the State must take notice of the danger of being left with a greater number of such officers on its hands than can be fully provided with work for the full period of their permanent service. Considerable or rapid expedition in any one phase of the Land Commission's activities is bound to have a repercussion on other phases, and one of the big difficulties of the Department is to keep all its activities in some kind of a level position. In conclusion, I merely wish to say that with a view to speeding up land purchase as much as possible, and in that I include the work of vesting as well as the work of acquiring and distributing untenanted lands, a complete readjustment of the staff, both indoor and outdoor, is in progress, and it is hoped that it will be completed and begin to bear fruit during the coming year.

Do I understand that the Parliamentary Secretary gave us the amount of land which remains to be vested under the 1923 Act?

I gave the amount.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary mind giving us the figures of the amount of land which remains to be vested under the 1923 Act, and the number of estates that automatically came over?

I gave the figures last year, and I suggested in the middle of the discussion that Deputies should correlate the information supplied this evening with that given last year.

I think that the Parliamentary Secretary stated that under the 1923 Act 600,000 acres of untenanted land have been inspected and 200,000 acres have been divided.

The 690,000 acres include the 200,000.

That is to say, there are 490,000 acres to be divided, and the House, in taking the items of this Estimate into consideration, will be able to judge for itself how long the work of dealing with untenanted land is likely to take, in view of the fact that less than one-third of 690,000 acres has been divided in six years. We are therefore good for, at least, twelve years more. There are some points in the Parliamentary Secretary's speech which we were all very glad to hear. In the first place, there is the concentration on tenanted land. I think that there is a general feeling in the House that there is no reason why the work of vesting of judicial tenants should not be taken up and dealt with in a short time. I will not go into that question further at the moment, but I want to say that we are all very glad that, as the Parliamentary Secretary assured us, the staff has been specially strengthened on that side. In the matter of temporary convenience agreements also it is satisfactory that the Parliamentary Secretary is able to report that the work of completing vesting in these cases is going to be taken up more thoroughly. That is on account, as he said, of the necessity of giving these people the facilities that are required to enable them to take advantage of the assistance offered by the Agricultural Credit Corporation.

If the Land Commission can put a spurt on and can show improvement, which undoubtedly they can show for last year as compared with previous years, in this whole matter, both in regard to temporary convenience agreements and also to vesting, why should they not put on a greater spurt in order to try and settle the whole question and give the tenants the benefit? In the same way as you had administrative difficulties in one case before you could give the tenants the advantages of the Agricultural Credit Corporation, you had administrative difficulties in the other case, and I think that the Land Commission ought to endeavour to get rid of these difficulties. As regards the Land Bank cases, it is very satisfactory to hear that they will be completed by the end of the year. Promises, however, have often been made in the Land Commission which have not been fulfilled. For example, about three years ago the late Minister for Justice made a promise here that the question of untenanted land would be settled in three years. That period has passed and, as the House now sees from the Parliamentary Secretary's statement, there is no possibility of its being completed within the next three years or within three years after that.

Does the Deputy mean the Minister for Justice or the Minister for Agriculture?

I mean the Minister for Justice, the late Mr. Kevin O'Higgins.

I take it that the Deputy is going to move his motion?

Yes. I wish formally to move:—

"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."

When the Land Act was introduced, Mr. Hogan, the present Minister for Agriculture, stated that it would be, at least, five or six times more expeditious than anything which the British had done. When the Parliamentary Secretary now tells us that he is, at least, as good as the Land Commission was under the British, I submit that he is not treating us fairly.

The Deputy must not have been listening to me. I said we were going three times faster.

Very well. The Minister for Agriculture said that we were going to go five or six times faster still. In connection with that matter, the powers which a native Parliament conferred on the Land Commission under the 1923 Act were intended to be entirely different in their effect from those of the preceding Acts. The 1903 Act was agreed upon by the landlords' and tenants' organisations. I am not very familiar with the 1909 Act, but both these Acts had their origin in the British Parliament. The Act under which we are now operating was passed with the specific intention of giving the widest and most drastic powers possible to the Land Commission, and in view of their operations we have to take into consideration the fact that every power they have ever asked for, every estimate they asked for, in order to complete their work, every single facility they required, has been given by the House. If the Land Commission can prove on their side that they have done their share as well as the House has done its share, very well, but I do not think they can prove that for a moment.

There is also the point which the Parliamentary Secretary conveniently forgets, that when the Congested Districts Board, as I pointed out already, went out of office they handed over to the Land Commission several hundred thousand acres, I think, which were almost ready for vesting, which had been gazetted or were in an advanced stage of purchase proceedings. I think the Land Commission has actually vested 500,000 acres of land which had been in the hands of the Congested Districts Board and was in that advanced stage of preparation. Perhaps there was more, but in any case we must bear in mind that a great deal, practically the whole, of the work that has been done up to the present, was done in substance by the old Congested Districts Board. The Land Commission, when it throws these large figures at our head, ought to state that fact, and to give credit where credit is due.

In connection with the different sub-heads, the Parliamentary Secretary has told us that there is a reduction in the inspectorial staff of seventeen. Whether that is a real economy is a matter for the House to judge. There are two considerations to be borne in mind in mentioning that matter. The first is that we were told here a few nights ago by the Minister for Agriculture that there are turbary questions, right-of-way questions, embankments and various other matters, which are delaying the work of vesting and holding up the work of the Land Commission generally. If we reduce the inspectorial staff are we going to expedite that work? Another consideration is: is the Land Commission completing the work on such a scale that the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to tell us that he hopes to be able to say that within two or three years that the matter of the final disposal of untenanted land will be completed? If he is able to tell us that then there is some justification for taking the Estimate as it stands, but if he is not able to hold out a definite programme for us and if he is not able to say: "I propose to do a certain amount of work and I feel the House ought to give me the staff required," we ought to look at the staff and the work from another point of view, and that is the amount of money spent on improvements. The staff is practically the same now as it was in 1924-25 when practically half a million pounds was spent through the Land Commission. At any rate, £380,000 was spent on the improvement of land and £140,000 on relief schemes. A great deal of that money went through the hands of the Land Commission.

In the following year £336,000 was spent on relief schemes and £155,000 on the work of improving land—a total of £491,000. The Parliamentary Secretary may say that I have no right to include relief schemes, but a certain amount, I do not know what proportion, certainly must be counted in with the amount the Land Commission spent. There is no provision whatever for relief schemes this year. If we take these two years, in 1927-28 the Land Commission spent £267,000 on improvement. That is excluding relief schemes. Last year a sum of £226,800 was spent. This year we are estimating for only £161,500. That is a very considerable reduction. If there can be that reduction in the work that is really being done, we have a right to ask why should there not be a commensurate reduction in the staff? If the Parliamentary Secretary is able to show that the work is being done, let the staff be there by all means, but when they cut down by half one of the most necessary and essential items in the Estimate, the improvement of estates, we have a right to ask for a corresponding reduction in staff.

I leave the matter of staff and turn to the question of travelling expenses. I notice, in reading through the Estimates compiled during 1924-25 and 1925-26, that very heavy extra work was being put on the Land Commission in the administration of relief schemes. For the past, few years the travelling expenses— like everything else in officialdom, when they reach a certain figure it is easy to pile them up but not so easy to take them down—have not been reduced to the extent that they should be reduced. If the staff has been reduced, as it certainly has, and if new regulations have been made —I think the Parliamentary Secretary said last year that there were modifications of the rate of subsistence allowances and travelling expenses—there should be a greater reduction, in comparison with the other items of expenditure, than from £34,000 to £32,000. If it is a fact that sixpence a mile is allowed for motor cars in this Department, I submit it is excessive, and that question should be looked into with a view to cutting down that particular item.

I will pass on to sub-head E—the solicitor's branch. Recently an important change has been made in the directorship of that department. One would have imagined that there the head of the Land Commission could have exercised the pruning knife with discretion, but in spite of a reduction there is actually an increase, not an increase in amount, but an increase in staff. In that connection, as in other connections, if we believed that the staff were really giving value for the money, and that the work of the Land Commission was being done as expeditiously as possible we might not begrudge this £8,000, but it is a matter of universal knowledge that there is general discontent among solicitors who have to deal with the Land Commission with regard to the tardy way in which business is done. Furthermore, the legal expenses to the unfortunate tenant who may have fallen into arrears, are out of all proportion to the work that the legal branch of the Land Commission has to do, and to the work of their legal officers down the country. Sometimes they are up to 25 per cent. of the few pounds that the tenant has owed, and it is a very serious obstacle to arriving at an arrangement between the tenant defaulter and the Land Commission for the easy payment of the amount that is due. Part of that heavy expense, I am told, is caused by advertising. In connection with advertising generally, perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would look into this matter and see if any economies could be effected.

With regard to sub-head G, to which a Deputy referred in a question—the contribution towards charge for excess stock—that is a matter which comes under the Ultimate Financial Settlement, but I think the Parliamentary Secretary will find a difficulty in justifying this payment to the House. If we accept the suggestion that is often made, that an item like the amount estimated here as a contribution towards charge for excess stock was only a contingent liability on the British Exchequer, we have to bear in mind that the security of the Ireland Development Fund, upon which it primarily rested, is no longer there since the Ireland Development Fund has been wiped out of existence, and it seems clear that the liability should go back on the British Exchequer. I believe that there is no statutory authority, according to English law at any rate, for the payment of this amount. The only excuse for its payment is the fact that we were so generous in our dealings with the British Treasury that we did not go into the matter sufficiently to find out how strong our legal position was if we only stood upon it.

Another matter to which I wish to refer is sub-head J. Under that sub-head there is an advance to meet the deficiency on income from untenanted land purchased under the Land Act of 1923. We have had a long discussion on this matter, and I need only say that I oppose that sub-head, because it is necessary for me to protest against the dilatory methods of the Land Commission in dealing with untenanted land. That is shown by the County Mayo, for example, one of the worst counties in Ireland, from the point of view of congestion, and a county which is constantly over the ears on the land question, for Deputies are constantly in competition with one another as to who shall have land first, whereas if they took their time about it, they could leave it to their children, their grand-children or their great grandchildren to deal with the work in turn. In County Mayo only 21,000 acres of untenanted land have been vested, out of a total of 100,000 acres. Fifty thousand of that is down in the return, which the Parliamentary Secretary was kind enough to supply me with, as having been the subject of inquiries. If it has been the subject of inquiries and has been inspected, I take it that it is on the way to being ultimately acquired by the Land Commission, because I presume that they do not send their inspectors down to make inquiries, or certainly to go any further than to make inquiries, unless they intend to go the whole way. In that county it is quite obvious that something will have to be done to speed up the dealing with untenanted land, and I entirely fail to see how that matter, which is so urgent in that county, in County Donegal and in similar counties, can possibly be dealt with while we cut down the amount which is available for the improvement of estates. When we cut down that amount to a mere fraction—to one-half, one-third, or even a quarter—of what was expended some years ago, we certainly are not doing what in us lies to expedite the dealing with untenanted land.

Another matter which I almost forgot to mention is that, in dealing with the figures of the Land Commission in regard to expenditure, one has to be extremely careful. They have a generous habit of coming here and asking for money, and then at the end of the year we find that very large amounts of that money are not spent. The Parliamentary Secretary says that it is very hard indeed to estimate the amounts which will be required during the year for dealing with improvements. But surely the Land Commission, after all these years of experience of the work, and having men in its employment who have been engaged upon it for such a long time, ought to be able to tell, within a reasonable figure, what they are going to spend. I submit that it is an outrageous proceeding and not fair to the House, and certainly it does not give the impression that we can carry on our accountancy properly and balance our accounts in the way we desire when last year, for example, we find that £96,400 of the money which was voted to be expended upon the improvement of estates was not expended, and that in the previous year £100,000 which we granted for the same purpose was not expended either. Apparently the Minister for Finance intends to reduce the amount still further.

I think the Deputy is making a mistake. In the year 1927-28, the whole of the amount estimated for the purpose of carrying out improvements on estates was expended except about £5,000 or £6,000.

I do not happen to have by me the 1927-28 Appropriation Accounts.

In 1927-28, the amount in the Vote was £274,000, of which sum £267,128 was spent.

Well, in the preceding year £200,000 was spent and £100,000 was not spent, according to the figures that I have here. I have not, however, the Appropriation Accounts for those years by me to check the figures. But let us stick to the figure for last year, where there was an excess of £96,400. I think it is rather craving the indulgence of the House too much to ask this year for a certain amount, an amount which is already too small, leaving the House in the position that it does not know whether it will be expended or not. Apparently the Minister for Finance has decided to cut this amount to £100,000. If we had any suggestion from the Parliamentary Secretary, in whom we had hopes when the Ministers and Secretaries Bill was passed, that there was something which would take the place of this sum which has hitherto been granted for improvement to give employment in the congested areas, we might accept that as an argument for the reduction, but he has not even pretended, in his opening remarks, that anything in that direction will be done.

He said that the cutting down was chiefly made on the grounds of economy. I submit that if the Government have that attitude towards the Gaeltacht that they say they have, and if they are at all familiar with the conditions there—and I am sure their colleagues in the Cumann na nGaedheal Party from the West of Ireland must have made them familiar—they know there is no reason why the amount of money that is being spent on employment should be cut down this year, any more than last year or the year before, or the year before that again. On the contrary, I think the amount ought to be increased. I see no reason why it should not be increased if the Ministry are really producing schemes, as they tell us they are, in the near future, which, to some extent, will mean the development of the small industries of those areas. If they are in earnest they would, in the meantime, spend sufficient money there to keep the average of employment up to what it used to be under the old Congested Districts Board. I believe it is considerably below that now. It was by having that employment there, and by having the circulation of that money, that these people were able to pay their annuities, to meet their expenses, and to maintain themselves. When some official who is out for economy suddenly decided to cut down this by a very large amount of money, it means that a particular estate is not going to be dealt with: it means, possibly, that the only source of employment in that area is cut off. That refers not only to the West of Ireland, but to counties like Kildare, Meath, and even Dublin Not so long ago I was speaking to a doctor from North County Dublin, and he told me that one of his chief duties as medical officer was to certify for home assistance for able-bodied men with families, who could not find employment. Surely it is better to spend money in preparing untenanted land for distribution, even if, it is not economic from the Budget point of view.

Surely it is well in the present condition of affairs, and in the state of depression in which the country is, to spend whatever money is possible, when we feel that that money is being distributed widely over the country, that it is getting into rural areas that other Government grants cannot reach and, above all, that it is giving employment to people who, without it, would be thrown back on home assistance. In addition to that the question of migration from congested areas arises. We were told by the Minister for Agriculture on the debate on the Gaeltacht, that whatever might be the value of local migration schemes, they must be considerably held up, and, to that extent, we are acquiescing with simply tinkering with the problem of dealing with the congested areas, when we will not proceed in a bold and imaginative manner to deal with these local migration schemes. The Parliamentary Secretary stated that only 50 per cent. of the staff were engaged on vesting. It seems extraordinary that 50 per cent. of the staff should be taken up with the purely routine side of the work, the collection of annuities, and dealing with correspondence. I hope when the Estimate comes before us again that the number of those who are actually engaged in the serious work of the Land Commission will have greatly increased. The amount of the staff, I think, that ought to deal with the routine office work ought to be only about 25 per cent. I think in support of my general argument that the Land Commission, by cutting down the amount for improvements and depriving a large number of people of employment, are unduly impeding the progress of the work of land distribution and are inflicting great hardship on western areas in particular, and also in areas in counties round Dublin where you have a large number of agricultural labourers.

In placing these points before the House, and asking Deputies to support the amendment, I cannot do better than quote what the Parliamentary Secretary said last year. In view of what he did say then, I fail to see how he can say now that the work is being levelled up, and that the progress the Land Commission has been making up to the present can possibly be maintained during the coming year. He said this time last year:

Improvement of Estates shows an increase of £49,200. That increase is inevitable when Deputies remember that we are acquiring and distributing lands now much more rapidly than we were able to do it hitherto. Last year, for instance, we distributed 60,000 acres of land acquired under the 1923 Land Act alone. That is quite apart from the land acquired by the Congested Districts Board and the Estates Commissioners. We divided 60,000 acres last year, whereas in the previous year we divided only 35,000 acres. That shows clearly and proves clearly that it is necessary to spend considerably more money on improvement works when the division of land is proceeding more rapidly than when the division proceeded at a moderate pace. We hope to accelerate the pace at which land is to be distributed and consequently to spend more money on improvement works this year.

Last year the Parliamentary Secretary indicated to the House that the work of the Land Commission was being speeded up, that the increase in the amount sought for would be well spent, that the work of improvement should naturally proceed, and that the amount spent on it should be heavier as the work of distribution was accelerated. Since we are reducing the amount for improvements so drastically this year we must necessarily be curtailing the rate at which the distribution of untenanted land will go on. A good deal of objection is taken throughout the country to the method of giving the use of additional land to people who have been brought up from the West or the South of Ireland to the Midlands, or to County Meath, in addition to their holdings, which, in some cases, at any rate, are substantial and superior in value, in amenities and in every respect to what they left behind them.

In one case there has been brought to my notice an owner who left Kerry, and got a holding outside Kilcock, the valuation of which was £80 higher than the one he left behind. The Parliamentary Secretary may say that he lost certain amenities. He did, but he got other amenities in connection with the trade he was carrying on. That is all very well, but when in addition to that good bargain he got a large house which might cost £2,000, and was given the run of several hundred acres of land for a number of years, without giving other local people, who might be interested, a share of that grazing, I think we are not acting fairly by the people of the district, and I think there is a very strong case for insisting that, in all cases where grazing is being let out by the Land Commission, it should be let by public auction, and in parcels sufficiently small to enable any person who wishes to have grazing to get it. I suggest also that in connection with proceedings which take place in the Judicial Commissioner's Court in regard to the resuming of holdings the Land Commission should consider repealing Section 24 (5) of the Land Act of 1923, which simply says that the person whose land the Land Commission seeks to resume will have power to go into court and contest their claim on the ground that there is other untenanted land in the district which is equally suited for acquisition. I take it that the Land Commission would not proceed with the acquisition of lands unless they felt they were the best for their purpose and were just about that. If they feel that certain lands are the best for their purpose, suited to the people and so on, then they should not give persons who are in possession, and who may desire to carry their frivolous objections a very long way, power to go into court and hold up the work of taking over these holdings in the way that has recently been done by certain decisions in that court.

I am not, of course, in favour of this Estimate being referred back, but I should like to take the opportunity of asking the Parliamentary Secretary for information on one or two points. It is satisfactory to know that the vesting of estates, both tenanted and untenanted, is proceeding, but not, of course, as fast as the tenants or any of us would like. Still it is proceeding, and we must all recognise that there is a vast amount of work to be done, unless there is to be endless fighting afterwards about title and matters of that sort. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary how in the case of untenanted land divided amongst certain people the expense of the divisions between the holdings is to be borne. In some cases it is a very heavy item. I know of quite a number of people who are rather in a quandary as to what they are going to do, and how they are going to bear the expense of very long divisions where they have got thirty acres or even more. There is also the question of the making of gates through walls and the division of plantations amongst those getting land. Another matter that is very seriously occupying the minds of people who have got, or who hope to get land, is where they are going to get the money to stock it. They rush into the taking of untenanted land, but I know quite a few who are getting rather alarmed, having got the land, as to where they are going to get the money to stock it. I do not know whether the eleven months' system will still be permitted to these people. It is not a good system, and we are not in favour of it, but what are they to do if they have no money to stock the land? Will the Agricultural Credit Corporation advance them the full amount required to stock their lands, simply on the security of the holding? That is a question that is exercising the minds of a large number of people at present.

Personally, I think it would be a good thing if the acquiring of untenanted land got a rest for some time, and if the vesting of tenanted land was proceeded with. I should think the original idea would naturally have been to vest all the tenanted land and then take the untenanted land and fill up the gaps, but the force of public opinion has gone the other way and compelled the purchase and division of untenanted land to the detriment of people who are waiting to have their land vested. I think that the time of those people who are tenants has now come. Some of them have suffered a great deal of loss through the land not being vested. I sympathise a great deal with what Deputy Derrig said the other day when introducing his Bill about the hardships that these people have suffered and are suffering from the long delay in vesting their lands. Of course, the Minister for Agriculture made it quite clear that greater progress could not be made on account of the registration, and that every precaution must be taken to avoid future expense in the matter of law. Anybody who has anything to do with the buying of land knows that these matters must be seen to, and that however anxious people may be to have the land question settled, it is no good if it is not settled to the satisfaction of all concerned, as it might otherwise lead to a vast amount of trouble, which might possibly never come to an end. I would also like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he can say when the large estate of the late Lord Cloncurry, in the County of Kildare, will be finally divided up. It is in the hands of the Land Commission for a very long time, and people who are expecting to get portions of it are, not unnaturally, getting extremely impatient. This matter has been going on for a very considerable number of years, and I hope something will be done to speed the matter up. It is so long in hands that one can understand there is reasonable impatience that this matter is not settled and done with. It does not seem to me that there is any great difficulty in the way. There cannot be much difficulty about the landlord's title. The land is free of houses in most cases; it was cleared by clearances that took place many years ago. There ought to be very little difficulty in dividing it, but still it hangs fire, and I would like the Minister to see if something cannot be done to speed up the division of this land.

I think that about represents all I want to put. I should like to say that I think, on the whole, the work of the Land Commission is being very satisfactorily done. Anybody who has anything to do with the inspectors and the officials has every reason to be pleased with the kindness and courtesy he invariably gets from them. I have had something to do with them myself, having had some land passed over, and I think most people find that they get every kindness and consideration from them. I certainly should like to bear my testimony to that.

In the first place, I should like to say that I agree with the statement made by Deputy Wolfe with regard to the purchase of untenanted land. I hope there will be a slowing up in the purchasing of untenanted land, but I do so, perhaps, for different reasons from those of Deputy Wolfe. I have been wondering for some time what is wrong with the Land Commission Department. I fear that if the activities of the Department in acquiring untenanted land are proceeded with along the present lines there will be a far bigger problem for the Executive Council to face in the future than in the past. I have been wondering what is the matter. I have found that when this Department was taken over by the present Executive they unfortunately took over with it a legacy in a lot of old officials of the Congested Districts Board and others who were in that Department before. A lot of these old officials were ex-land agents, and these gentlemen have been sent down the country now to purchase and value estates. They have been sent down the country, some of them to value estates of landlords who were members of the same organisation, and some of them of the same lodge as they were themselves. These gentlemen have put upon these estates something like five times the actual value. These valuers are sent down on behalf of the Land Commission, and on behalf of a supposedly national Government, to value estates. I have in mind the activities of one gentleman in my own district on the Condonstown estate, which was taken over by the Land Commission. This gentleman fixed the rent upon the unfortunate tenants at something like 15/- an acre. The rents on the surrounding holdings there, which are in many cases far better than the Condonstown estate, are 4/6 and 5/- per acre. I know one unfortunate individual on that estate, who had a very nice little farm in West Cork. It was in a congested district, and to make room for congests and divide up this estate, he was transferred to Condonstown estate. That unfortunate individual is now faced with bankruptcy, and is unable to pay the rent or rates of his holding. Very flowery promises were made to him by a valuer named——

The Deputy ought not to name civil servants. We are here discussing the Land Commission Estimate, and the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary are responsible. We must confine our criticism to them. They are responsible for the acts of civil servants. If the Deputy mentions the name of a civil servant he must remember the civil servant has not the right to reply. Not only that, but the Deputy has the right, if he cares to exercise it, to say anything he pleases about anybody, but because we have that right it is incumbent upon us not to exercise it, because if we did we would be bound to lose it.

I regret having transgressed. The position is that very flowery promises are made by these gentlemen when they put individuals on these estates, but these promises are not carried out. The tenants are left there at the mercy of the winds. If the Parliamentary Secretary wishes to contradict my statement he can very easily get particulars of the arrears of rent on the Condonstown estate and let us have the matters out here, and I am quite willing to let the Committee judge.

Another estate in my constituency taken over a few years ago was the Mount Uniacke estate. On the question of improvements I have a letter here from an unfortunate man who got 55 acres of that estate in East Cork at a rental of £41 a year. The land in the district is paying something like 6/-, 7/- and 8/- an acre.

Is that the small or large acre?

It is the small acre— the statute acre. The tenant had had thrown in with his holding an old mansion house which was burned, and he was to get an allowance of £50 towards the re-roofing of that old mansion. Quite recently the gentleman who divided up the estate arrived and sent in a large party of men to pull down portions of the house and to use the materials to rebuild another house on the estate for an old lady of 60 years of age, who happened to be a servant of the original owners of the estate. This old lady already owns two holdings with dwelling-houses, which she has let. This man is now having the mansion house pulled down in order to build a barn and make it into a dwelling-house for this old lady. I do not know by what stretch of the imagination the gentleman who divided the estate should consider that this old lady should get a farm of 48 acres.

When I got that letter I went to see the place myself. I found that the steps leading up to the hall-door had been pulled away and taken down to build a breach in a wall which could very well have been built by ordinary stone. The mansion is now practically useless and no one will ever rebuild it or make any repairs. The two gable ends were torn out, while the front steps were pulled away to build up a breach in an old wall of a barn in order to make a dwelling house for this lady who has two other holdings in the district let. These are the improvements which we see here in the Estimate. I say may God save the country from them. I therefore am at one with Deputy Wolfe in saying that there should be a slowing up in the division of untenanted land until such time as the Land Commission get rid of those gentlemen who are at present apparently in absolute control of that Department, those gentlemen who owe their positions there to the influence of landlords and to the influence of Orange lodges in this country. I think that is a state of affairs which should not exist. I think that instead of those gentlemen being promoted to still higher positions and given still further control that they should be definitely cleared out of this Department.

There is very definite evidence of collusion between those valuers and the landlords whose estates they come down to value. That collusion is definitely proved by the fact that in 99 cases out of 100 the unfortunate people who are transferred to those estates are absolutely unable to pay the rentals that are clapped down on their shoulders. The Parliamentary Secretary this evening hurled a large array of figures at us showing the enormous amount of work done in the vesting of holdings. Not being able to note down his figures as rapidly as others, I intend to rely more on figures which the Parliamentary Secretary gave in this House on the 13th March last in reply to a question put to him by Deputy Derrig.

With regard to the vesting of holdings he gave the number of holdings coming within the Land Act of 1923 and vested since 1923 in each of the following years as follows: Period to 31st December, 1925: judicial, 259; non-judicial, 92; total, 351. That is for one year. Year to 31st December, 1926:—judicial, 273; non-judicial, 145; total, 418. That is the second year's work. Year to 31st December, 1927: judicial, 406; non-judicial, 267; total, 673. Year to 31st December, 1928: judicial, 2,661; non-judicial, 1,347; total, 4,008. I think Deputies on those benches have every right to congratulate themselves. When we find, however, that the number of holdings remaining to be vested is 49,560 judicial, and 33,692 non-judicial, then we wonder and ask ourselves when is the Land Commission going to finish vesting. The Parliamentary Secretary says that we have proceeded as rapidly as possible. They have proceeded as rapidly as possible! But between the passing of the 1923 Land Act and the 31st December, 1928, they have only succeeded in vesting 5,450 judicial and non-judicial holdings altogether. I have added up the figures given here by the Parliamentary Secretary, and I find that is the number of judicial and non-judicial holdings that they have succeeded in vesting.

It is obvious that the Deputy was not listening to my statement. The figure that I gave was 41,000.

If the Parliamentary Secretary adds up the figures he will find that I am perfectly correct.

I gave the official figures.

When I made inquiries as to what other Governments were doing in the matter of the vesting of land I found that in Northern Ireland, where a Land Act was introduced in May. 1925, that in November, 1927, 6,700 holdings had been vested there under it. That is to say, that in less than two years the Land Commission Department in Northern Ireland have vested 1,250 holdings more than the Land Commission here have vested between the passing of the 1923 Land Act and the 31st December, 1928. I think that in view of these figures there is an absolute case for scrapping the Land Commission Department here altogether. The Department here apparently have no object in view but to maintain a position of affairs in this country which cannot be tolerated. I think the Parliamentary Secretary will find that even members on his own benches will not tolerate it. When we consider the position that there are still 83,000 odd holdings to be vested, not to speak at all of the breaking up of ranches or the dividing of untenanted land, we can clearly see that there is to be no definite finish to the actions of the Land Commission.

The Land Commission, apparently, is going to be a permanent institution. When this problem is nearly finished, there will be another problem to be dealt with by whatever Executive Council is here at the time, that is to say, the problem what to do with those estates which have been valued at five or six times their true value by the Land Commission's valuers, and from which at present tenants are, in many cases, clearing out. That will impose a new burden to be borne by the State, for the tenants will be absolutely unable to pay the high rentals that are being put on these holdings. The position will arise that the State will have to step in and do something in the matter of reducing the annuities. I think that is clear to anyone who has had anything to do with the dividing up of those untenanted lands. The position is an intolerable one. It is a position that I think would not arise with any national Government in power, a position where the minority can step in and take absolute control of this Department, for that is what it amounts to. The position is such that I think this House should put an end to it.

I have no reason to say anything but what is complimentary of the Land Commission in connection with the work which they have done, particularly in the constituency which I have represented for some years. I believe if the British Government had done one-tenth of the work which the Land Commission have done it would have been very much more highly appreciated. Figures from the period from the passing of the Land Act, 1923, to the 31st March, 1929, in the county of Longford show that 3,543 acres of untenanted land have been vested in the Land Commission. Of these, 2,978 acres have been divided, and improvement expenditure amounting to £9,925 has been sanctioned for building roads, fences, etc. In County Westmeath, the corresponding figures are: 13,898 acres vested in the Land Commission, of which 12,934 acres have been divided, and improvement expenditure amounting to £16,008 has been sanctioned for building roads, fences, etc. In connection with the distribution of that very large amount of land, whilst of course you cannot satisfy everybody, speaking generally, the division has given general satisfaction, but many people are dissatisfied. I believe myself the Land Commission inspectors have, as far as possible, divided the land amongst the persons most entitled to it.

The policy of the Land Commission, in giving preference to small landholders living on or near the land has been universally approved. There is a greatly renewed demand for the distribution of land. During the last few years that demand had slackened very much, because the people who had land were finding it very hard to make ends meet. I have recently received more demands to bring before the Land Commission for the division of ranches which possibly might be eligible for division than I had during the years 1927 and 1928. Some dissatisfaction prevails owing to the bringing in of persons from outside areas, more especially when the area to be divided is not too large. I would like to say that whilst I would not object to that being done where large ranches are being divided, I do not think it ought to be done where the land available would be under, say, 200 acres. I would like to pay a special tribute to Mr. Kettle and his assistant, who deal with the counties of Westmeath and Longford.

I have almost the same objection to tributes by name.

I mentioned only one by name.

I would like the names of civil servants to be kept out of debates altogether.

With regard to the recent division of the Moyvoughley estate, the tenants have always paid the rents for their holdings. They are anxious that an adjacent bog should be divided among them and that externs should get no portion of it. It appears that the landlord gave over the bog to the Land Commission five years ago. I would like the Minister to take note of that, and to see if anything could be done in connection with the matter. As regards the large sums allocated for the making of roads and ditches, I would ask the Minister to expedite this work. There is a very large number of people idle at present, and it is very desirable that they should be given some employment. My experience of the Land Commission and their officials is that they are courteous, efficient, and energetic, and very often under great difficulties, in cases of which I have some knowledge, have given general satisfaction. If I had anything to say in connection with the division of land I would say that the Land Commission have been too impartial to please a good many people.

Speaking here last year, I said the Government, and myself as one of their representatives, had been considerably injured by the impartiality of the Land Commission. Although I did say that. I am in complete agreement that where there is a small holder living near land that is being divided he is entitled to some of it, and I hold that view regardless of whether it may injure me or not. I have made inquiries from the Land Commission and I have been told that during the present year it is expected 2,000 more acres will be divided in Westmeath and Longford. Now that we have turned the corner and that we are approaching much better times I think the Agricultural Credit Corporation should be more liberal. I want to say that we have the best Minister for Agriculture in Europe, but his abilities are more appreciated outside his own country than they are here. I have no hesitation in saying that the future is very bright, and that before the Land Commission Vote comes on next year I believe in view of the brighter prospects it will be proved we have definitely turned the corner and we will go ahead from that on.

I wish to emphasise what has been said by Deputy Derrig with regard to the manner in which the land on the Cloncurry estate in the county of Kildare is being divided. He said that men have been brought in from other parts of the country, who had a certain proportion of poor land, into the county of Kildare, and were given a much larger proportion of land of a better quality than what they held say in Kerry, or the West of Ireland, or wherever they came from. In one instance, a very glaring case, a person who held under 200 acres of land in Kerry got about 200 acres in Kildare of much better land. He has at present over 300 acres of land on the 11 months' system. There is another case of a man who got 200 acres on the Cloncurry estate and he has set it to a neighbour. Not one single perch of this land has been tilled, while there are in the neighbourhood men who have very small uneconomic holdings and who have been trying to get a share of this land to make their holdings economic. I have been trying to get land for some of these men. Most of them have cattle grazing on their neighbours' land, so that it cannot be said of them that if they got land they could not stock it. They have the stock already but they cannot succeed in getting land.

This person who got over 200 acres, and who has in addition 300 acres of grazing, seems to have some influence with the Land Commission, because I know that he promised a friend of mine, who is a landholder, that if he did a certain thing for him he would get him more land. Very recently two men for whom I have been trying to get land, but could not succeed in doing so, got land, I am told, through the influence of this gentleman. We in Kildare are dissatisfied very much with the manner in which this land is being divided. Why should there be land there set on the eleven months' system whilst numbers of men in the neighbourhood are without economic holdings? Some of them have no land but have cattle grazing on their neighbours' land. These men could work land if they got it. There is something wrong in the method of distributing this land. It would appear that we want only large holdings; we want to benefit the grazier only and then it does not matter about the poor people who have very little land and ought to get some. One of those men who got land recently had a number of cattle out on his neighbour's land last year. I had been trying to get land for him and could not succeed. That man sold his cattle with the intention of going to America. I was instrumental in preventing him from going that time, hoping I would be able to get land for him. There are a number of similar cases, men who are in despair and who must emigrate if they do not get land. Why should one man hold 300 acres of grazing land whilst numbers of men in the same area have uneconomic holdings? Something must be done for these poor people. They deserve land and they must get it, and I hope they will get it.

There are few countries in Europe that I know of that have been so unfortunate as this country has been in the matter of the division of land. I find that we have had as many Land Acts to settle the land question as any other country, and in the initial stages, at the time of their introduction, and when they were being passed by the different Parliaments, we were told that these Land Acts were to solve all the problems and to make practically a paradise of Ireland within a few years. What really did take place was that each Land Act in turn created a new problem, one more difficult to solve than the one that had been solved. Another unfortunate state of affairs arose at these particular times. I suppose through the want of industry or something else to do the land was the only thing in Ireland that could give a man shelter and, perhaps, a living. That, as I say, is unfortunate for us. Nevertheless, we find another strange feature in all this, and that is that at all times when the tenant farmers of Ireland got land, or had land bought for them by the Government, land was always at the peak price, and because of that peak price the tenants and those who were land-hungry agitated more keenly then than at other times. Therefore, the problem was intensified.

We find at the time of the passing of the 1923 Act that there were great hopes that it would be the final solution of the land problem. No doubt it succeeded in solving the problem that the previous Land Acts had almost solved. It solved the question of tenanted land, or what we call judicial tenants. At the same time I fear that it is creating another problem, and that is the problem of untenanted land. The system of valuation has, no doubt, a great deal to do with that. I know that in countries like this the valuation of land is difficult. I know that land has been treated, perhaps, unfairly; that in cases it has been starved. I know that on certain estates a few fields are in a really fertile condition, but I know that there are other divisions on each of these estates that are worth but very little. I am aware that valuers from the Land Commission have serious difficulties to face. I believe that they depend very little on local information. I believe that to get the true value of land in a district the valuer cannot work with the same experience as the people with local knowledge and experience could. There are farmers listening to me who will agree when I say that there are certain divisions in their own farms worth twice as much as other divisions in the same holdings. The soil, for the purpose of analysis, may be equal, but what took place there was that probably for the purpose of pasturing, in the laying down of this land proper seeds may not have been used. That is a matter that would be altogether unknown to the valuer from the Land Commission. A serious difficulty arises when a tenant comes to be given those lands. In passing, I might mention that I have known divisions to be made by some valuers where in reality the local people, who had long experience of these lands and knew them very well, knew that, perhaps, in the case of each Irish acre there is a difference in value of £1 or £1 10s. per acre between the different divisions of these lands. Those valuers may be influenced to some extent at least by what is known as Griffith's Valuation. But I think that Griffith's Valuation was not a pasture valuation. It was, I dare say, a grain valuation, which meant a very different thing.

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Reilly

In the time of Griffith's Valuation the markets which controlled the prices of the produce —and the produce controlled the prices of the land—were completely different from the markets in our days. The times were completely different. The railways and steamships and motor cars and modern inventions have changed that. This present City of Dublin at one time when horse trams and horse transport were general was certainly a consumer of no mean capacity for the farmers' produce. The farmer was also able to live cheaper in those days because when he delivered his goods or produce here in the City he was able to return with the necessaries of life, such as fuel and other things. As I have already said, the times have completely changed.

On the other hand, local taxation has increased to an enormous amount. The result is that the new farmers, with little experience perhaps, and with little capital perhaps, got untenanted land and are now faced with a very serious position. I believe that in the Land Commission you have a valuation court which more or less does duty in the same way as the old Land Court did. It has, I admit, one great advantage that the old Land Courts had not, and that is that the land is always in the best condition that the land-owner can have it in, whereas in the days of the old Land Courts the tenant who went in there made the very strongest effort to have his land in as reduced a condition as possible when he was going into court to have the fair rent fixed. Therefore, when his fair rent was fixed and when he got his reduction he must in all probability have lost, through the non-productivity or poverty of the land which he himself created, as much as the reduction itself.

Therefore I say that the land problem in Ireland possesses a number of peculiarities which one does not find in other countries. At the same time, to say that the Land Act of 1923 is the final Land Act and will terminate the question of the land problem in Ireland is a matter that I, for a moment, do not believe. I believe that even within a very few years some steps will have to be taken to relieve what is now known as the tenants of untenanted or ranch lands. I believe these steps should not be delayed too long, considering that the unfortunate ratepayers are the securities or the sureties for these rents, and they have got enough burdens already to carry without having this burden imposed on them.

I believe that the Government of the day would be well advised to think out this problem. Another point that I wish to emphasise, as far as the constituency which I represent is concerned, is the question of migrants. This is becoming a very important question. The other point I want to emphasise is the question of leaving out the men who have capital but have no land. I dare say the same problem arises in the County Kildare, and to quite as large an extent perhaps in Westmeath. But I know it exists in Meath and in Kildare. You have in these counties young men who have worked with large farmers and sometimes with the landlords. These were men who knew more about the business of that ranch, perhaps, than did the owner. These were intelligent young fellows who were economic and saved their money, and in time began to add to their capital by transactions in cattle, sheep and other things. A good many of those people take land in the way of grazing. They pay £4 or £5 per Irish acre for the land in order that they can keep their capital together and possibly add to it. Through the division of lands these men are out of employment, and the only means they have of existing is to take grass land, which, to anybody who has experience of it, is a rather chancy proposition and more or less a game having in it much that is of the nature of gambling. Those fellows cannot remain on very long. They are afraid of this gambling and this chancing, and I have known a good many of them to leave the country with £300 and £400 capital. They leave the country in complete disgust and they go to America. We lose their capital, and we certainly lose their ability. When we lose both combined, I believe it is a serious loss. Other counties may not have a question of this nature, but I know that both Meath and Kildare have that question, and an effort should be made to solve it.

The method of solution, I fear, in certain parts of Meath anyway—the southern part of Meath—has been a method of creating another ranch. Migrants have been brought in there. Do not take it for one moment that I do not understand perfectly well the system that is adopted. Not alone do I understand it, but I approve of it—but within reason. We in County Meath have not any objection to relieving congestion in the West of Ireland and I appreciate to the fullest the hardship that a migrant experiences. I understand perfectly well that he comes to a strange and, perhaps, hostile district. I know perfectly well that he leaves relations and friends behind him and I know very well it costs him more than the Land Commission will ever refund to him. He probably enters into a new life with a system completely different to what he was accustomed to before. I sympathise with him. I know it is all for a good purpose and the congestion in the West must be relieved. But at the same time I have to object strongly to such a wholesale method of relieving congestion without any consideration whatsoever for landless men and uneconomic holders in the area where western migrants are given new holdings.

I hope that the Land Commission is not under the impression that we have no congested districts in County Meath. Even in County Meath of the ranches there are congested districts. There is great poverty and there is very poor land. In parts of County Meath the land is just as poor as it is in any other county in Ireland. I am quite sure that the House will sympathise with the people who live in these poor districts. Housing is inadequate. The people live sometimes in bogs and sometimes on hillsides, the approaches to which are often impassable. I am quite sure that this matter will receive consideration. These men should get some chance. It is pretty hard luck on them to be left there whilst men of substance getting large ranches of 200 acres or so come from other districts. It is pretty hard to instil into them the principles of patriotism and the idea that the West of Ireland congests should be relieved at their expense. I agree thoroughly with the principle, but I hope that it will not be pursued to the extent that it is pursued to-day. As long as it is kept within bounds and a reasonable policy is pursued I do not believe that either in Kildare or Meath there are any people who will object to the system.

There is another point I would like to emphasise in connection with the division of these lands. I have come across two or three cases where migrants were brought in, not always from the West. They were brought in from neighbouring counties, but the strangest part of all was that they took these unfortunate migrants from their own homes and attempted to dump them on ranch lands without even a sheet of zinc to cover them. Just alongside there were magnificent residences newly built, with hot and cold water and all the most up-to-date appliances, and these were allowed to go to public auction. Would it not have been much more satisfactory to buy those three houses with the farms attached, give them to the migrants, and divide the ranch land amongst the uneconomic holders in the neighbourhood? Distance in County Meath and County Kildare does not mean an awful lot, because the business, unfortunately, up to this has not been tillage. The business is the rearing of cattle, and cattle can walk. What takes place in this particular case is that these uneconomic holders will till their own land near their house and feed their stock on whatever divisions they get. I believe that that would be a sensible policy and that that would be suitable. There is more than one instance where that could be done. There is another district which I want specially to talk about. It is a district in the northern portion of County Meath, and it is, perhaps, one of the poorest districts in Leinster. Very few attempts have been made to relieve those people in that district. On the contrary, a few months ago a large estate was divided up in that district and it was mostly those from outside who got land there. I do not think that there was a single person from this northern portion, called Meath Hill. who got land there. I know that these are points which will receive consideration. They have been put up before. They will help, perhaps, to make the 1923 Act a success so far as one portion is concerned, but so far as the question of tenanted land is concerned, I am quite convinced that within the next few years another Act will have to be passed in order that the burden that is on the shoulders of men who are, perhaps, less fitted to bear it will be relieved. Judicial tenants, who sometimes have two fair rents fixed, get a reduction by this measure. I believe that it would be only fair that in the valuation of land in those districts, as far as possible, the average value of judicial tenancies should be the value of the land in the district. The same question arises with reference to the 1903 Act and the 1909 Act. In a good many cases there are certain lands which are entirely too dear. The rent is almost exorbitant, but those Acts do not present the difficulty to me which the 1923 Act does. I believe that if the principle in those Acts, known as the Sinking Fund, was retained you would be able to extend the time and, perhaps, give a reduction to those people.

I do not quite understand the concluding statement in Deputy O'Reilly's speech in which he said that the average Land Commission rent fixed on property in a district should be the standard by which all land should be bought. Deputy O'Reilly and the House must remember that the rent fixed by the Judicial Commission was the price which the landlord should get. Side by side with that, the Deputy will admit that for a long time in this country another interest has grown, namely, the tenant's interest, and, if you are going to admit that there is such a thing as a tenant's interest at all, you must take that into consideration when buying a farm from an individual who bought it outright, whether it be for the relief of congestion or anything else, and the individual who gets it as a congest must remember that he is buying two interests, namely, that of the owner and that of the occupier. Is there any suggestion that we should get away from that? Is it suggested that there is not a tenant's interest in this country and that it is not a marketable and negotiable quantity? There is no use talking about these things unless we know what we are talking about. Reference was made to the old phrases used in connection with previous Land Acts to the effect that we are going to solve all questions about land and that the country is going to be made a paradise. You cannot do that, and you must remember that Ireland is a land of exaggerated phrases. We have some of them on this side of the House rubbing solder on with a shovel.

The objection to Deputy Derrig's amendment to refer the Estimate back for reconsideration is based on very little argument. It is based mainly on the fact that the operations of the Land Commission are going too slowly. We are told that the Land Commission is not operating quickly enough. There is no doubt that all this is very instructive. If the Parliamentary Secretary is able to give us an approximate forecast of the amount of land that can be dealt with per annum, now that certain obstacles have been removed, and can also tell us the number of estates that can be dealt with, we can estimate the amount of time that is going to be expended in carrying out the operations of the 1923 and 1927 Acts with the present staff. It would be more economical to increase the staff by 100 per cent. if it would shorten the period of these operations. We do not want to hand over a life job to the Land Commission. We want the job done in the shortest time, even if we have to expend more money now.

In regard to the question of fencing, I think I heard Deputy Wolfe ask what help was going to be given in that respect. Every effort should be made to get the people who get holdings to do their own fencing. If fencing has got to be done, the cost has got to be charged back to them, and anything you can do to inculcate a spirit of self-help and self-reliance is good for them. Any improvements on the land will be charged back to the incoming tenant, and I think that the idea of getting them to do something for themselves is good and sound, and the more it is developed the better. Reference has been made to the price of land charged to the incoming tenant. What is the cause of that? It is because of the agitations that were created all over the country for the purpose of forcing the Land Commission to buy land when land was dear. It was not popular some time ago to advise the Minister to go slowly. Land was then at a fictitious price. I make no secret of the fact that I gave my advice to the Government at that time, and its wisdom has been borne out since. When land was at a peak price, the Land Commission was forced to buy. It was a question of either buying or confiscating, and if it is anybody's fault that land was bought too dear it is the fault of the people who wanted to get local popularity and who created an agitation to force the Land Commission to buy.

The Land Commission have been warned time and time again to go slowly in this matter. If they were to purchase these lands now they could buy them at 40 per cent. of the price which they paid in 1923 and 1924. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot have local combinations sending up deputations to the Land Commission urging them to buy at any price and at the same time expect to get it cheaply. I have no hesitation in saying that there is many a man working on lands divided by the Land Commission who is sorry that he ever took part in these agitations. Nobody came out of it worse than the agricultural labourer. In some cases, he got two or three acres but in most cases he got nothing at all. He is now neither a working man nor a farmer. People who are working on properties should be very slow to urge that these places should be broken up as long as they are provided with work there. It would be utterly suicidal for them to lend themselves to any clamour that is got up to break up these estates because they are going to get less out of it, if anything at all, than anybody else. The great pity was that the Land Commission did not proceed more slowly at the time and wait until prices reached a reasonable level. Then we are asked: "What is our native Government doing? Why are they not buying lands and giving them to the people?" If they had to buy land at the prices then prevailing and give it cheaply to the tenants, they would have to tax the State. I want to know now if those who used that argument are in favour of imposing additional taxes in order that the land may be given cheaply? If they are, let that be stated openly. It is no use using this argument against the Land Commission. Let it be stated openly and let it be said that it will be the policy of any Party which wishes to advocate it.

I would urge one thing upon the Land Commission—I think it will become more apparent as we go along—and that is that they cannot be too careful in regard to the people whom they put on the land. The question of selecting suitable tenants is of more importance now than ever. Deputy Buckley referred to the land let under the eleven months' system as if that system were a crime. I wonder what would be the position if those who got land under the division system were debarred from letting it on the eleven months' system? What would be the position of those who have to let it on the eleven months' system? It is all very nice and flowery to speak of this in some townland, but the fact is we are not honest about it. Fifty per cent. of the properties I know are let, or partly let, on the eleven months' system. In some cases very much more than 50 per cent. is let. In dealing with this problem the Land Commission needs to be very careful as to the persons to whom they give land. They must give it to the best men, apart from any clamour, local influence or local agitation. They cannot have success on the land or in agriculture in Ireland side by side with the policy of kindness to the "poor devils." There has been too much regard for the "poor devil" in this country. There is an outcry to provide land for these people, and that the cream of the country is leaving it. Side by side with that, they want to get land for every waster, for people who never paid their annuities, or never will pay anything if they can get out of it. I think it would be a good thing if the nation got rid of its "poor devils" and put the cream of the country on the land. There is not enough land for the cream of the country. I would like to know what the Party on the other side would do if they had not the "poor devils." Their whole backbone at present is the "poor devils."

A Deputy

That is right, they are in the majority.

If you say that you have turned the corner in agriculture, I doubt it. We have a little bit more to get round the corner. There is a good deal to be done yet, and the difficulty will not be to get land for the people, but to get people for the land, and to keep them on the land. The Land Commission would be very well advised to go slowly in its selection of tenants and not to be advised by local associations, which sometimes have very few good men amongst them. If the Land Commission is not careful in this matter, they are going to create a very big burden for the State. We are assured here that the question of delay is not altogether attributable to questions of title. We are told that there are other considerations, rights of way, turbary, and a few other heads. Surely the specialists who are dealing with rights of way and turbary cannot find continuous employment at the rate at which estates are being dealt with. I say there should be one or two specialists in the Land Commission to deal with questions of turbary and rights of way. These men could proceed from estate to estate before the clerical work cropped up and have everything in order to proceed with the vesting. They should be going on from estate to estate perfecting their maps and showing what should be done. There would then be no question of waiting for the Land Commission. If a proper system were worked out I think we should have a considerable speeding up of these matters. There should be one set procedure to be followed in each case. I even go so far as to say, though perhaps I had better not say it here, that if a proper committee were set up knowing their work and which would approach the problem regardless of private considerations, it would help very materially in making suggestions on this matter.

Deputy Derrig will know more about another matter to which I wish to refer than anybody else. That is the time taken up by the Land Commission in dealing with frivolous cases, from his constituency, with regard to tenanted land. I understand that Deputy Derrig has sent out some posters calling meetings and stating that anybody who wanted land or anything was to come in to Deputy Derrig on Saturday or Sunday and he would give them everything they wanted. The result is that we have coming up to the Land Commission applications for the division of land, no matter whether it is tenanted or untenanted, or what the size of the holding is. I have one case in mind which is typical of many of these cases, though it is not so typical of County Kilkenny, I will admit. A very big man in the cattle business who has six fully-grown sons and is living on a farm of 18 acres, has 40 acres in Carlow, and an inspector was sent down to visit that forty acres with a view to dividing them up.

A Deputy

Was he making a move to get any taken from you?

No. I have not enough land to supply my own family. But that is the kind of thing that is delaying the Land Commission. It is only typical. I could instance more than a dozen cases of that description where the time of the Land Commission was taken up in correspondence and inspectors were occupied in going down and looking into these cases. If we are to deal with untenanted land the sooner we make up our minds to stop this wasting of the time of the Land Commission the better. Sometimes these are very vexatious cases indeed. I do not know how these matters come before the Land Commission at all if the people behind them had any regard for fair play, and I am sure I need only mention it to cause Deputy Derrig to mend his ways.

There are a few matters in connection with this Vote to which I would like to refer. From my experience of the Land Commission I must say that it is almost impossible for Deputies on these benches to obtain information regarding the way in which land is being divided and vested, or in which money is being spent by the Land Commission. An air of mystery seems to surround the working of this Department. We had an example of this last February, when a Deputy on this side of the House sought by means of a question to elicit information from the Parliamentary Secretary regarding the amount of land purchased and vested under the Land Acts of 1903 and 1909 in County Leitrim. The Parliamentary Secretary, in his reply, stated that he did not propose to waste the time of the staff of the Land Commission in the preparation of the return asked for by the Deputy. This refusal on the part of the Parliamentary Secretary to supply essential information in reply to a written question is, I submit, an attempt to cloak the inefficiency or incompetence of the officials under his charge. The excuse about wasting the time of officials in preparing a return is merely eyewash, but it is typical of the circus methods which the Parliamentary Secretary seems to have developed since he left the ranks of the plain people and was elevated to the upper ten.

I endeavoured, by means of a Question last year, to ascertain the amount of the Distress Grant allocated by the Land Commission to County Sligo, and the name and description of each particular work for which this money was allotted. I was told by the Parliamentary Secretary, in reply, that the amount allocated to County Sligo was £4,500, and that if I called at the Land Commission offices I could see a list of the works. I called later at the offices of the Land Commission, and was shown a list, which I was told was merely a provisional one. I was told that a correct list would be ready in the course of a few weeks and that I could get a copy. I called several times afterwards, and was informed eventually by the official in charge that he had instructions not to give a list of such works or to allow any Deputy to take a copy. Why a Deputy should be denied a list of works on which public money has been expended in his constituency I do not know, unless the Parliamentary Secretary is fearful that the publication of the list would enable the public to see the way moneys at the disposal of the Land Commission were being spent for political purposes. The reluctance to supply information concerning the work of the Land Commission is not confined to the Parliamentary Secretary—the higher officials are equally reluctant. On the 30th November last I wrote to the Secretary of the Land Commission requesting information as to when the lands of Carns, Stonepark and Claddagh, on the Harlech estate in County Sligo, would be vested in the tenants. I did not even receive an acknowledgment in reply. On the same date I addressed the following letter to the Secretary of the Land Commission:—

30th November, 1928.

A Chara,

Please let me know by return if the Land Commission have acquired, or intend to acquire, the lands belonging to Mr. Basil Phibbs, of Rathmullen, Ballymote, Co. Sligo, and if so, when those lands will be available for sub-division.

Mise, le meas,

FRANK CARTY.

And the following is the only reply I received:—

53957/28.

4th December, 1928.

A Chara,

I am directed by the Land Commissioners to acknowledge receipt of your letter of 30th ult, regarding lands belonging to Mr. Basil Phibbs, of Rathmullen, Ballymote, County Sligo, which will receive consideration.

Mise, le meas,

B.J. O'DONNELL.

No information was given as to whether the Land Commission had acquired or intended to acquire these lands.

What is the reason for this secrecy on the part of the Land Commission? Any information which I sought from other Departments— Local Government, Education, or Agriculture—was given promptly. Why is the Land Commission an exception? Is there something to hide? Why are Deputies in this House denied information as to the way in which public money is being spent by the Land Commission? Why does the Parliamentary Secretary refuse to give detailed information to a Deputy regarding the vesting of estates in his constituency? Is it to hide the incompetence of the Land Commission, or is it dangerous to the prestige of the Government to give this information?

I submit that Deputies are entitled to ask and receive information concerning their constituencies, whether in reply to a letter or to a Question in this House.

Another matter to which I would like to refer is the delay of the Land Commission in acquiring and subdividing untenanted lands in County Sligo. Although the 1923 Act is now six years in operation, there are still large tracts of untenanted land remaining to be dealt with. The delay in having these untenanted lands divided is causing very great hardship in many congested districts where small land holders have not sufficient land on which to plant crops to maintain their families. Whatever reason may exist for delay on the part of the Land Commission to acquire and sub-divide untenanted land, there is no excuse, in my opinion, for the failure of the Land Commission to take over and sub-divide trustee farms. There are five such farms in South Sligo, namely, Cloondaragh, Flowerhill, Brackloonagh, Lecarrow, and Oldrock. These farms were purchased from their former owners during the years 1919, 1920 and 1921, and have been held ever since by trustees for the tenants. It was expected that after the passing of the Land Act of 1927 the trustees would be relieved, and that the lands would be divided immediately. So far nothing has been done. These farms remain on the hands of the trustees as monuments to the inability of the Land Commission to cope with congestion and as a living testimony to the inefficiency of officials and the vote-catching promises that were never fulfilled.

Four years ago the Parliamentary Secretary introduced a motion in this House to expedite the purchase and division of lands. Speaking in support of his motion, Deputy Roddy said:—

When the 1923 Act was passed it was assumed, and rightly assumed, I think, that the Government meant to tackle this problem in a really serious and determined manner. The advantages that the Act would confer on the country were penned in the most brilliant colours and promises were held out to the people that its provisions would be in full effect in the course of two or three years at the outside. These promises have not materialised, with the result that a feeling almost akin to despair is beginning to take possession of the minds of the people.

Deputy Roddy is now two years in charge of the Land Commission, and to-day we have the same complaint from the congested districts that was voiced by him in the Dáil in 1925.

The feeling is general that no serious effort is being made to complete the distribution of land in the West. It is not confined to any one party. The political supporters of the Parliamentary Secretary in County Sligo have already registered their condemnation of the failure of the Land Commission to tackle this problem. The published report of a meeting of the South Sligo Executive of Cumann na nGaedheal, held in Ballymote, on the 10th March last, contains the following:—

"Arising out of a discussion of the Minutes the Revd. Chairman said the matter of the division of the lands had been too long ignored, and with a consistency, if not sinister, is at least glaring";

and further:—

"Other delegates joined in condemnation of the persistent failure of the Land Commission to distribute the Trustee Farms in South Sligo."

This is pretty convincing proof that even the most ardent supporters of the Government are beginning to see through the game of bluff that has been carried on by the Parliamentary Secretary and his colleagues during the last few years, and that they have lost faith in his ability, and that of the Land Commission, to cope with this problem.

There is another matter arising out of the division of land to which I would like to direct the attention of the House. When land is being divided in my constituency, it is not the most deserving applicants that secure allotments. The principal key-men and supporters of Cumann na nGaedheal invariably receive first preference. I quoted a case last year where prominent followers of Cumann na nGaedheal were brought, some of them a distance of three or four miles, and given land at Raughly, on the Gore Booth estate; while the claims of other small landholders and fishermen were ignored. Quite recently, when land was being divided on the Mitchell estate, near Dromore West, the local Cumann na nGaedheal Secretary was brought in from an outside estate and given a section of these lands, to the exclusion of more deserving applicants, including those who formerly obtained conacre tillage there. This practice of the Land Commission in giving farms to the supporters of Cumann na nGaedheal is quite common in County Sligo. No doubt the Parliamentary Secretary will deny that the Land Commission is being used for political purposes; but as proof of my contention I will give him one specific case, which I challenge him to deny. On the Phibbs estate, in Keash, County Sligo, the tenants purchased their holdings from the landlord in January, 1907, under the Land Act of 1903. According to the terms of the sale, tenants on the mountain-side, whose valuation was under £7, were to get allotments on the Knockbrack farm, which comprised approximately 340 acres. An engineer from the Land Commission visited the tenants in 1919, marked out their divisions, and got them to sign purchase agreements. Later— in the autumn of 1925—an engineer named Moran, from the Land Commission, visited these lands and undid the work of the former engineer. Instead of giving these lands to the congested tenants on the side of the Curlew Mountains, and confirming the work of the first engineer, he divided these lands among ex-officers of the Free State Army, some of whom were living miles away, and in receipt of pensions from the Government. Two ex-captains of the Free State Army, each in receipt of a pension of £70 per year, received allotments on the Knockbrack farm. Several other ex-members of the Free State Army were brought in from other estates and given portions of this farm, with the result that the unfortunate congests on the mountain-side were deprived of the land to which they were entitled under the terms of the sale in 1907, and which had been marked out for them by the Land Commission under the old régime.

It is not to be wondered at that the Parliamentary Secretary has avoided Keash in his election campaigns. He knows the feeling there. Already one prominent supporter of his has been compelled to leave the parish, and quit the country, as a result of his interference in the division of these lands. His indignant parishioners would not tolerate him any longer. I wonder will the Parliamentary Secretary stand over the action of the Land Commission in the division of these lands? What happened in Keash is merely an example of what is taking place every day all over the country.

How long does the Government think they can get away with this sort of thing? Remember the rumbling of the storm can be heard already in the ranks of the Parliamentary Secretary's own most enthusiastic workers and supporters. I am convinced that when the Executive Council opposite are driven again to appeal to the people, one of the factors, and not the least, that will assist in ending their sway in the Twenty-Six Counties will be the cold-blooded, huckstering administration of the mess which is called the Land Commission.

I do not know whether the Dáil will believe me or not when I say that I had not intended to take any part in this discussion were it not for the "to Hell or Connaught" speech of Deputy Gorey. One would find it difficult to describe a farmer Deputy if Deputy Gorey assumed to speak for the farmers. He told us in pretty plain language that he had no use for "the poor devil,""the poor devil" being the annuitant who cannot pay. He would root him out, root and branch— or root and ranch, I suppose—and he would scatter him and his family to the four winds of the universe, with no protection and with no hope. Deputy Gorey did not say what produced him, and he does not know why he should be there. After clearing him out, after putting the costs of litigation and of seizure upon him, after putting his farm out of commission, giving little to the Land Commission for all their expense, and giving nothing to the annuitant, he would send him to America, Australia or somewhere else. That is Deputy Gorey's cure for "the poor devil."

Excuse me. That is Deputy Hogan's version of my words, not my version.

Mr. Hogan

It is no cure for "the poor devil." He says he should not be there, but he does not see any method of dealing with him. That is what I gathered from Deputy Gorey's speech. He seems to have forgotten what has produced "the poor devil." He seems to have forgotten the abnormalities of the last ten years, the disturbed markets, abandoned fairs, and the total disorganisation of transport and road facilities. He never heard of those things; he never heard of fluke epidemics and those things. His only cure, therefore, is that the machinery of the law should be put into operation in connection with these poor devils and that they should be sent anywhere and everywhere. That is not the reason I rose to speak, but Deputy Gorey's contribution was so clearly a misrepresentation of the farmers' position that although I am not a farmers' representative I thought it was only fair that the House should understand to some extent what the position is.

We are repeatedly reminded here that relief grants are uneconomic, that they produce nothing and do not give value for the amount expended. No doubt the President will tell us that he has said it on several occasions. But when I find that in this Vote the item "Improvement of Estates" is divided exactly by two, I do not see that the same reason applies for the cutting of this Vote as might apply, in the logic of the Ministerial Benches, for the cutting or total disappearance of relief Votes. This is surely economic and reproductive work, something that will increase the wealth of the nation and put money in circulation. There is no dearth, I gather from the Parliamentary Secretary, of people seeking employment and, judging by the figures given for officials, there is no dearth of supervisors. That this sum, therefore, should be divided in two is one of the most amazing things in the Estimate. Surely it cannot be stated that the number of unemployed has decreased so appreciably that we can divide the sum by two. It can hardly be argued that the improvement of estates is not urgent and that therefore we need not proceed with the work. Surely it will not be argued that there are not sufficient estates on which to proceed with this work, with advantage to the unemployed and the nation as a whole, and as something that will be of material advantage in increasing the wealth of the nation, which is very necessary at present. The worst feature of the Vote is the dividing in two of that item.

Further, I may say, like other Deputies who have spoken, that I am not satisfied with the way some estates are divided. I believe there is what Deputy Shaw would probably describe as too much impartiality in the dividing of some estates. Somebody has said that too far east is west, and too much impartiality may mean partiality. I suggest, if Deputy Shaw will accept my paraphrase of his statement, that there is too much impartiality, which means too much partiality. Therefore, a good many people have probably to indicate in some fashion or another what particular political philosophy they believe in before they get portion of an estate. I know that very many glib promises have been made to small economic holders and landless men, and I am afraid that there is very little intention on the part of the people who made these promises to fulfill them. It would not be a bad idea, therefore, for the Land Commission to change their officials around a little oftener, and probably there would not be so much impartiality, again to quote Deputy Shaw, in the matter of dividing the estates if that were done.

There is another matter that the Land Commission seems a little lax about, and that is the acquiring of estates which they might acquire. You will find in the local papers in different parts of the country advertisements that estates are to be sold in divisions. One person possibly could not buy an entire estate, and the owner divides it up into nice-sized holdings of twenty and thirty acres and sells it. The owner, of course, gets away with the boodle in the matter of the cash, and if the estate is acquired afterwards the unfortunate devils, to quote Deputy Gorey, who bought it I suppose will have to take land bonds from the Land Commission and bear with the fluctuations of the market, while the man who should bear them has gone away with the solid cash. This is a matter which the Land Commission should look into and not allow such estates to be divided. Their inspectors in the different areas might very well keep a close watch on such advertisements in the local papers and notify the Land Commission when these sales are advertised. Even on the principle that it is easier to acquire land from one person than from seven or eight, the Land Commission ought to take action immediately in such cases.

On the last occasion when the Estimate for the Land Commission was discussed, I said something about the difficulty that tenants find in discovering their position with the Land Commission. I have really no complaint against the Land Commission in the way they endeavour to meet tenants who find it difficult to pay their annuities. I have repeatedly put up cases to the Land Commission and got concessions in the matter of giving time and an easy method of payment. I must say that in that connection I have no complaint against the Land Commission, but I should like that the tenant would know exactly what he owed. I think the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that the tenant finds great difficulty in knowing what he owes. The Parliamentary Secretary shakes his head. I can assure him that I know scores of cases where the tenant cannot find out exactly what he owes. He pays a half-yearly instalment perhaps, and within the next few days probably gets another six-day notice, or he may be taken into court for some other instalment that he was not cognisant of or that was not clearly before his mind. The position is that the tenant does not know where he stands in this connection, and in some cases the Land Commission are putting upon these people the cost of litigation, the cost of seizure, of driving and bringing the animals to Dublin, and the cost of sale in Dublin, and when all these expenses are paid the Land Commission gets very little and the tenant nothing. The tenant deserves to get more specific and definite information as to what he owes to the Land Commission before such proceedings are taken. The Parliamentary Secretary does not believe what I am saying. I suppose I cannot convince him, but I know that that is the position.

My complaint, mainly against the Land Commission, is that they have divided exactly by two the amount of money which was very usefully expended in the improvement of estates that have given good results and that have improved the wealth of the country and gave very much-needed employment. I believe that that is the worst item in the Vote, and I think the Parliamentary Secretary will find great difficulty in defending it.

I desire to support Deputy Hogan, very strongly, in his protest against the reduction of the amount available for the improvement of estates. I certainly would not have spoken at all on this Estimate except for that item. Apart altogether from the employment given on estates by the spending of the sum of money set apart in other years, there is another and, to my mind, a much more serious side of the question. Last year, I think, something over £200,000 was spent under this head. Notwithstanding that I am personally aware that the Land Commission have not, by any means, redeemed anything like the promises that they made to migrants to whom they had given holdings, to make roads and drains through their farms, principally roads to turbary. I know people who have got holdings of land and signed agreements after being promised by the Land Commission, or their predecessors, the Congested Districts. Board, that certain roads would be made for them, giving them facilities for turf, and that certain drains would be made for them. These things have never been done and, as a matter of fact, some of the holders are told, because the estates are now vested, that they cannot be done. Even in regard to estates not vested we find that instead of trying to redeem the promises made, the Land Commission has cut down this Estimate by one half.

Apart altogether from the employment given by the spending of these sums of money, I think the most important thing is that the estates will not be anything like as productive as they might be owing to this money being withheld, and the very fact of these works being held over for a length of time has contributed very largely to the present condition of those whom Deputy Gorey described as the "poor devils."

There is another matter that I want to draw the attention of the Land Commission to. There is a sum of £1,400 set apart, according to the Parliamentary Secretary, for legal costs in speeding up the resumption of holdings of the defaulting annuitants. In that matter I would like to know how it is that a holding in the county Roscommon which was resumed over two years ago, and which since has been subdivided to adjoining tenants, still appears on the defaulting list of the County Roscommon and why moneys are withheld out of our grants, for that holding. We have made repeated applications to the Land Commission to know why that is continued. We have got a reply, and the reply is that these lands are not yet vested in the tenants. If they are not vested in the tenants I am sure the people occupying the land pay interest in lieu of rent. They are not enjoying these holdings without paying for them, yet the full grants to the Roscommon County Council are being withheld.

I am afraid I have nothing very much to cavil about with regard to the sub-division of estates, but I am afraid I cannot compliment the Land Commission on some of the subdivisions in the County Roscommon. There is one case I know there, and I have been trying to get an inquiry into it, but, so far, I have not got any satisfaction. I am prepared to give the particulars, the names and the valuations. I know where people —I will not say they are prominent Government supporters, they are not —were brought from over two miles away, one of them with a £14 valuation, to get additional land while other people with only £5 or £6 valuation are living beside this land. There is no other estate to be divided there. If I cannot get the Land Commission to look into this matter I intend to raise it in this House later, because I think it a glaring scandal.

I listened rather attentively to the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary in moving this Vote. I was rather surprised to learn from him of the change of front from that of a few years ago. Deputy Carty read out some of the speeches the Parliamentary Secretary made then, and his speeches then, I am afraid, are responsible for a lot of Deputy Gorey's "poor devils" and for having a mill stone round the necks of those poor men by way of annuities by reason of the fact that these estates were taken over at such a high price.

At that time I advised the Land Commission to go slowly and vest the tenant holders under the 1903, 1909, and 1923 Acts, and when the land would come to something like an economic price to go on with the division. Now it has changed its policy and I understand it is to go on vesting all holdings and give a rest to the other phase of the question. I am afraid that is locking the stable door when the horse has been stolen, because most of the estates are divided. I have a complaint to make of one of the estates divided in the County Limerick. A house and land were given to an individual brought from another area. That individual is not a migrant in the sense that he has given over land for any particular purpose. He is not what may be described as a landless man or an evicted tenant. I have questioned why it was that this house and land were given over by private treaty, because the policy was to sell these lands by public auction in cases not suitable for division or where migrants were not brought in. I was told the reason it was done was through sentiment for the individual. I have yet to learn that any Government department considers a person's sentimental claim. There was no claim for the holding by this individual as an evicted tenant or a landless man, or a migrant that had come from another holding. I think it would be well if the Auditor-General's or that the Public Accounts Committee's attention was called to that, because I am very sure the person who bought it, if it was put up to public auction, would give as much as he gave privately for it, and perhaps more, and the amount over and above what should be given should go to the relief of the allottees for the reduction of their annuities, and they are badly in need of it, because the price of the estate was high.

Deputy Shaw spoke of the money given out in Westmeath for the relief of unemployment and for the division of land, and for the making of roads. I am afraid Deputy Shaw's constituency got the bulk of it, because very little of it came to Limerick. I learned from Deputy Derrig that seventeen temporary inspectors were dismissed lately.

It seems strange, if the Land Commission are serious in going on with the vesting of holdings, that they should reduce the number of inspectors in view of the fact that the Minister for Agriculture, in the debate last week, stated that the chief reason for delay in the vesting of holdings was the fact that boundaries, rights of way and turbaries had to be seen to. I submit that would be work for inspectors to do, and that, therefore, their number should be increased rather than reduced. I asked the reason why the number of inspectors was reduced, and was told it was for the purpose of effecting economy. I suggest that this is practising economy at the expense of people whose holdings have not been vested. When the Government have any economies to make we find that they make them at the expense of the rural inhabitants. Some time ago they took steps to make economies at the expense of the rural areas in the matter of proposing to reduce the number of postmen. Now the economy is to be at the expense of the non-vested holdings. We have learned that the amount that has been paid over and above by those tenants whose holdings still remain to be vested is somewhere in the region of about £80,000. I suggest that is a tax on the people.

I know some of these inspectors who have been dismissed, and I say that they were the most efficient men employed by the State in the Land Commission. When I asked why some of these men had been dismissed, the reply I got was that a letter was written about four years ago by one of them asking for his removal from one county to another. That was the reason given for the dismissal of one of the most efficient men in the employment of the State. We are all out for economy, but I submit that there are more ways than one of effecting economy. I understand that these inspectors are being paid salaries of about £600 a year. Their expenses, I imagine, would come to a couple of hundred pounds more. I suggest that if the salaries of these inspectors had been reduced by a couple of hundred pounds a year, it would be a far better kind of economy to practise, rather than to dismiss them. I think they would not be very badly paid if they were in receipt of a salary of £400 a year, plus expenses. If that had been done they could have been retained in the service and engaged carrying out this work in regard to the vesting of holdings that so urgently demands attention. That, I think, would be the proper kind of economy to practise.

I know that some of these temporary inspectors who have been dismissed were far more efficient than some of the permanent ones. I suppose, however, it would not do to retain the services of these temporary men who are efficient at a lower salary than that paid to some of the permanent men who are not efficient. I suppose that is the reason why these men have been let go. These temporary men, of course, are nobody's children, but if they happened to be permanent officials and that their salaries were reduced they would be everybody's children. The Civil Service organisation, I suppose, would then take up their case if their salaries were reduced on the plea that this was getting in the thin end of the wedge to reduce salaries. I maintain that the retention of these temporary inspectors in the service at a reduced salary, say, of £400 a year, plus expenses, would be more in keeping with the demands of the country in the direction of having economies effected than their dismissal, because the reduction of the number of inspectors in this fashion will mean the holding up of the vesting of land, the fixing of boundaries, rights of way and turbaries, etc.

One would imagine from a statement made the other night by the Minister for Agriculture that in regard to holdings which have been vested that rights of way, the fixing of boundaries and matters in relation to turbaries, etc., have all been attended to. I hold that they have not. In regard to an estate near my place, which was divided recently, the allottees' right of way to their plots was challenged. When the case came before the Circuit Judge the Land Commission assumed the role of defendants for the sake of the case. The case went against the Land Commission, and then there was an appeal to the High Courts, where the Land Commission was again defeated. The Land Commission is now in the position that, having vested these holdings, they do not know where they stand. The allottees cannot use the land they have got for any practical purpose, except perhaps for meadowing. Because their right of way has been challenged they cannot move stock in or out of the land. I do not know what is going to happen to the lands.

Deputy Gorey referred to the sending down of inspectors to the country to examine small holdings. That is a thing that should not be done by any Department—sending down inspectors to the country to examine farms of forty acres. There is no reason whatever for any Department doing a thing like that. If the Land Commission, or any other Department, wants to ascertain the size or valuation of a particular holding, these particulars can be obtained in some Department of the State. The very fact of an inspector going down to the country for the purpose of examining a small holding is certainly calculated to depreciate the value of that holding for credit purposes.

And every holding.

Yes, every holding in that area. There is no excuse for any Department of State going to the expense of sending down an inspector on an errand like that. This is a thing that has happened in a number of areas, and that I submit should not happen. I have in mind a farm of 17 acres which an inspector was sent down to examine. I suggest that the particulars that he came down to get, such as the size and valuation of the holding, could have been obtained here in Dublin in the Department of Local Government. He would know from the particulars thus obtained whether it was necessary to divide that farm or not and what amount of congestion there was in the area.

There is another matter that I want to refer to. In the County Limerick you have a tremendous lot of embankments along the Shannon that were not being kept in a proper state of repair before the Land Commission took them over. The result is that people holding lands in these areas are in a very perilous position at present. If the tide rises even one foot after a storm it bursts the banks, with the result that thousands of acres of land in that part of the Co. Limerick are flooded. The county council is held responsible if people who have purchased their lands default in the payment of their annuities, and of course it is also responsible for the collection of the rates. The people whose lands are flooded are expected to pay the annuities due on them. If they default in the payment of the annuities, then its share of the Agricultural Grant is withheld from the county council. Surely it is not fair to expect people to pay rates and annuities out of land which, because of this flooding, is in slob. There is some land there already in slob, and nothing has been done to remedy the state of affairs of which I speak. In connection with the payment of land annuities, there are some places in West Limerick with a small acreage. The instalments due on these places are small but if the people default in making their payments the cost of collecting them is sometimes three and four times greater than the actual amount of the annuity. I suggest that the Land Commission should bear some of that cost. As to the people who do not want to pay their Land Commission annuities I have very little sympathy with them, but there are a lot of people who are willing but unable to pay. When costs are piled up against them it makes it impossible for them to pay anything.

I do not know whether I am right in saying that the landlords are as anxious to have the holdings vested as the tenants. In many cases the landlords are anxious to get bonds in order that they may be put in a position to provide for their children.

As to the question of title that is always referred to when this matter of the vesting of holdings is raised, the landlords seem to have title good enough to enable them to collect interest in lieu of rent from the tenants. The owners of land have been receiving money for generations and their title has been recognised in the courts. But when it comes to a question of vesting they fish up some minor point or other.

The Minister for Agriculture told us the other night that if all the holdings in the country were to be vested immediately it would mean more litigation. I say that the solicitors are getting more money out of this by the delay that is taking place. I say that people who think that they have any claim to land in one way or another have now had six years since the passing of the Land Act of 1923 to make their claim. If they have any claim to make they should have made it during that period. The Land Commission should be able to prove their title by now and not wait any longer. I am perfectly convinced that is not the reason the Land Commission are delaying the vesting of holdings, and my conviction is that a good many of the owners are so poor and get so little out of it they are anxious to get their bonds to pay their debts or to provide for their children. A tremendous number of them are going on the market and as a consequence the value of the land bonds is reducing, and the more bonds that go on the market the lower they will go, thus bringing down the credit of the State for borrowing purposes. If they wish to save the State it is not the right way to victimise the holders of non-vested holdings for that purpose. Some consideration should be given to those. I think that where the title is all right, and in 99 per cent. of the cases the title is all right, pending the fixing of the boundaries and the right of way, some certificate should be given to the owners to carry on, and help them to reduce the principal by paying off the annuity. Deputy Derrig said it would take about twelve years to complete the operations of the Land Act of 1923. I think that is a very optimistic view to take at the rate the Land Commission are going.

I was referring to the untenanted lands.

I understood you were referring to the tenanted lands. At all events, up to this less than £5,000,000 worth of tenanted land has been vested under the 1923 Act. The Minister for Agriculture told us when introducing the 1923 Act that the total would be somewhere about £30,000,000. Since then he has suggested that it would be increased by about 50 per cent., that is £45,000,000. If the vesting takes place at the rate of only £1,000,000 a year, it would take about 45 years to complete the operation. In that way it is easy to calculate what the tenants will have to pay in interest in lieu of rent. I hope the Minister will not be too strict in the matter of seeing that the title is vested immediately.

I rise to apologise to the House for not being able to see eye to eye with Deputy Shaw who has poured blessings and benedictions on the Land Commission. I come from the County Tipperary, which suffers to a much greater extent than any other county in Ireland through the different plantations and evictions that took place from the Cromwellian days up to seventeen years ago. It was in my county Cromwell uttered the famous phrase: "This is a land worth fighting for." Anybody who has studied Prendergast's "Cromwellian Settlement in Ireland" knows to what extent Cromwell cleared out the native people of that day. The remnant of the Irish people—those who did not go to Connaught—were driven to hell. I cannot see eye to eye generally with the policy of the Land Commission. I disagree with it on two grounds. First and foremost, I say they are proceeding entirely too slowly with the vesting of the holdings of the tenants under the Act of 1923. In my county there are about 13,000 holdings which come under the Land Act of 1923, and something like about 400 of these only have been vested. At that slow pace the remaining number will not be the owners of their holdings within the next thirty years.

I see no reason why the first, second and third term judicial tenancies should not be handed over to the tenants in a very short time. Why the appointed day for these should not be within the next year or so I cannot see. Take the question of the division of ranches. I come from a district where between 5,000 and 6,000 acres of untenanted land were divided under the British régime. There are thousands of acres of untenanted land which have not been touched by our own Government since they came into office. I have brought every possible pressure to bear upon the Land Commission to take over these ranches, but with little effect, and they offer the most flimsy excuses as to why they should not proceed to take them over. Twelve months ago I put a question on this matter to the Minister for Fisheries. I asked:

"If he is aware that the Irish Land Commission recently refused to take any portion of the lands owned by Captain Moore, of Mooresfort, Tipperary, for the relief of congestion; if he will state the reason for such refusal; the number of acres at present in the possession of Captain Moore; if he is aware that there are a number of small holders living near this estate; and what steps he proposes to take to bring them up to the economic standard."

This was the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary:

"Proceedings were instituted by the Land Commission under the Land Act, 1923, for the acquisition of 61a. 2r. Op. of the lands of Kilross, on the estate of Captain Moore, Co. Tipperary. The owner objected to the acquisition of the lands, on the grounds that for many years past they had been worked by him as part of his home farm and farming industry generally, including that of a stud farm, and that if he were deprived of the lands the result would be to materially interfere with the stud farm.

The objection came before the Land Commission Court, who, having considered all the circumstances, gave judgment allowing the objection, and the proceedings were in consequence discontinued. In addition to these lands, Captain Moore is returned in the Schedule of Particulars lodged as holding about 722 acres of demesne lands and 5,000 acres of mountain and woods."

I know that estate particularly well. We asked that a small portion, 61 acres, of that estate, which Captain Moore had been trying to sell, and which was in the public market, should be divided among the small holders in the neighbourhood. The Land Commission, in their wisdom, came to the conclusion that out of 6,000 acres they could not give a paltry 61 acres. The same thing has been going on in other ranches in my neighbourhood. Take the Timoney estate of 1,200 acres, and the Braddell estate, Two-Mile-Borris, of over 500 acres, non-residential. This gentleman holds another big farm in County Cork, the Trant estate, which has an area of 1,688 English acres. Only 300 odd acres of this has been taken over for distribution. Through the efforts of the Cumann na nGaedheal clubs, and as a result of different resolutions that were passed and supported by some of us, an inspector from the Land Commission was got down in regard to the Braddell estate. The owner was a cute boy, and though he had not previously resided there, he came up and took possession of a little holding on the place, with the result that the Land Commission declared the property to be a residential holding. That man, as I have said, had a large estate in Cork, to which he went back again soon after, and we have not seen him since. There are a number of small uneconomic holders in the vicinity, and we have not been able to get an acre of his estate for them, Every acre of that estate, from which people have been evicted, is haunted by the ghosts of murdered men who walk around there yet. If we are to believe the local people, they are in dread to walk at all around there because they would see the ghosts of some landlords and agents who were murdered. We got the Land Commission to start operations there.

To remove the ghosts.

We got the Land Commission Inspectors to come there. There are from 100 to 120 small uneconomic holders there, and after the greatest pressure we got the Land Commission to take the small amount of 325 statute acres, leaving the balance, 1,688 acres, to the descendants of those who turned people out of the property.

The Land Commission can be very generous with some people in my neighbourhood. There is a District Justice living near me, a man who has a salary of, roughly, £1,000 a year, with his expenses running, I suppose, into £300 more. He has a beautiful house, with about ten rooms, hot and cold water baths, and he has between fifty and sixty acres of land. That gentleman has been allowed by the Land Commission another 351 acres, with another beautiful home. I think that was the biggest scandal that was ever perpetrated by the Land Commission. I do not know how anybody could stand over it. It is simply disgusting, because if a man with a small holding in my county of five or six acres was given a holding in another county, he would have to hand over his five or six acres to the Land Commission. If such a man were given a farm in Westmeath, he would have to hand over the few acres he had in my county to the Land Commission. But in this case that man was allowed to sell this very fine mansion at a big price and, in addition he was allowed to sell four or five holdings by public or private auction. He was not asked to give them up. He was a live servant of the Government, I suppose, but when the fight was on against the Black-and-Tans, he was not of much use——

The Deputy must not go on in that line.

There is another thing I want to complain of——

What I want to make clear is this—I think it is not right that Deputies, under the privileges which they have in this House, should make a personal attack upon any citizen or servant of the State where that citizen or servant of the State has not the right to reply or meet what is said.

Hear, hear.

I made that statement about him on public platforms in Tipperary, and I will make it again, and he will have an opportunity to reply.

That is a different matter.

Another thing I have to complain of is the high price which has been given for land by the Land Commission in the last few years—prices out of all proportion to what the future tenants can pay. We have able Land Commission inspectors going down to the country, men with fifteen or twenty years' experience, valuing and inspecting these ranches which the Land Commission is proposing to take over. They inspect every field, dig up the soil, take into consideration everything on that land, its suitability for holdings, and so on. and what do we find? Generally the owner of that land, if he thinks the price does not suit him, comes up here to our friend in the Land Courts and appeals against the price, and our friend in the Land Courts generally allows him twenty per cent. to thirty per cent. in addition to the price which the experienced men who inspected the land had found is the price which the tenants to whom this land is to be distributed can afford to pay.

I do not like to take up unduly the time of this House, but I would like to complain about the slowness in vesting the lands in South Tipperary, my area. There are very few Deputies in this House who have not heard, from time to time, of the Lattin ranch and what the Land Commission have done there. They scheduled some five years ago 1,200 acres of untenanted land. We find that they decided to take over from the Green estate 100 acres. On another estate in the same neighbourhood there are about 300 acres of untenanted land. Notwithstanding the fact that repeated resolutions were sent up here to the Land Commission to carry out the division of these ranches, not one of these ranches has been yet divided. There were meetings held in the neighbourhood, and at one of these meetings, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, Deputy Heffernan, the Parliamentary Secretary for Posts and Telegraphs, and other speakers called upon the Government to divide up the land immediately. That meeting was held in 1926. Another public meeting was held there in the following year and meetings have been held there repeatedly since. I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary why the division of these lands is held up in South Tipperary. Now the Parliamentary Secretary may smile at the case we are trying to make. The Parliamentary Secretary did not smile very much in 1925 when he was trying to make the same case himself against the Government. That speech was quoted here in this House on the 8th March, 1928. He said:—

The Minister may quote an elaborate array of figures in order to show the amount of preliminary work the Land Commission is doing. He did quote figures extensively in the debate on this year's agricultural Estimates, figures designed to show the amount of land that had actually been inspected by the Land Commission, the amount of land that had actually been valued and the amount of land that had actually been divided and for which land purchase agreements had been signed. These figures undoubtedly look very formidable on paper, but, after all, they carry no conviction to the minds of the ordinary small landholders throughout the country who want to see some tangible, practicable evidence of the Minister's policy. They want to have the lands divided and divided immediately, and no other argument will convince them of the effectiveness of the work of the Land Commission.

In quoting these remarks, I close.

Come over to this side.

I would like to support Deputy Derrig's motion, and, in doing so, I would like to quote a few instances of the work of the Land Commission. I find from the references and figures given by the Parliamentary Secretary to Deputy Derrig the other day that of tenanted lands there are 164,959 acres in Mayo, and out of that only 5,464 acres have been vested. That means roughly that about one acre in every thirty acres has been vested, while in the Midlands, from reference to the same figures I find that there are large areas in which one acre in every four to one acre in every five acres has been vested.

I would like to know what is the meaning of this apparently erratic dealing with the vesting of land in the Twenty-Six Counties, or what is the meaning of the delay, and why there is so much dallying with the land in County Mayo as compared with other counties. It strikes me that the old cry, "To Hell or Connaught," is creating a biassed mind that is reproduced in the present representatives of the Land Commission in dealing with Mayo lands. In former days the Congested Districts Board was criticised very much for the work done in the West in the matter of tenanted and untenanted land. But we find that their housing schemes enabled the people to secure habitable dwellings, a thing that is practically impossible to get now through the Irish Land Commission, especially where their policy of vesting holdings is concerned. In Achill, for instance, a lot of the tenants did secure what you might term decent dwellings through the Congested Districts Board, but that good work seems to be totally held up by the present working of the Irish Land Commission.

At Tourmakeady nothing has been done as regards the housing problem. On estates such as the Jones estate, which was purchased about 21 years ago by the C.D. Board and is now held by the Land Commission, a lot of expected improvements are held up such as fencing, roads, drainage and other improvements. Repeated applications to have these improvements carried out have been made, but so far nothing has been done notwithstanding the long period that has elapsed since the estate was purchased. I do not know why this state of things is allowed. I would like to draw the attention of the Land Commission to the desirability of dealing at once with the estate. This estate has really been very much neglected. A month ago I submitted questions about some of the tenants there. I expected that some consideration would be given to the tenants as the land had been so long purchased. I got a reply that no such thing could be done, and the tenants are still paying interest in lieu of rent when, long ago, the lands taken over should have been vested in them.

Deputy Gorey referred to the high prices paid by the Land Commission in recent years owing to the pressure put on them by people requiring land. In my opinion the Irish Land Commission had no right to pay such a high price for the land. The prices they have been paying are admitted on all sides to be entirely out of proportion to what the lands were worth. Stocks in all Departments have fallen and in like manner it is only reasonable that the stocks in the Land Commission Department should also have fallen. Above any other Department the Land Commission should not pay a higher price for land than the land was really worth. Deputy Gorey's suggestion that it was owing to the pressure of people looking for land that the Irish Land Commission were obliged to pay such high prices has not much foundation.

took the Chair.

I listened with great pleasure and gratification to the very gracious tribute which Deputy Derrig thought it right to pay to those Deputies who sat in this House from 1923 to early in 1927. During that period I had not the honour or privilege of sitting here. It was in that period that Deputy Derrig and most of his present colleagues were prevented from entering the House by conscience. Deputy Derrig, speaking of our predecessors in title, told us that they gave every facility for land purchase and the tenants were helped in every way by this House through the Land Commission. That is a very gracious tribute to pay to those who passed the Land Acts of 1923 and 1927. Following in their footsteps what do we find? I was wondering when I heard Deputy Derrig speaking thus of our predecessors, could he by any chance bear any relationship to the Deputy Derrig who, as recently as last Friday, declared the settled policy of the Opposition Party here to which he belongs by introducing and voting for a Bill which can only have for its object, in the opinion of any sane man, the throwing of land purchase into a state of chaos.

On a point of order, why did not Deputy Wolfe make this speech on Friday last when there was a chance of replying to him?

Why did you not put up your arguments?

Mr. Wolfe

I think it was perfectly open to the Deputy last Friday, if he cared to address the House in defence of the Bill which he had put up and apologised for, and which the Deputy on his side who also spoke apologised for, to make a definite reply if there was anything further to be said in regard to the Bill.

It was quite unnecessary to reply.

Mr. Wolfe

I agree that no reply was possible, and hence there was no reason for me to reply to a case that had not been made. At all events we have the settled policy of the chief Opposition Party. They wanted to bring in a Bill to break up the law as affecting land purchase in this country. It was a Bill which, if it became an Act, could only have one object. Anybody who knows anything at all about land purchase is well aware that such an Act would throw the whole thing into a state of chaos from which it would take years and years and more Acts to extricate it. I rather sympathise with the Parliamentary Secretary in being up against a policy such as was put forward here on Friday last. In effect that policy was: "Here you are; we are shoving this Act down your throats; we are gulling the public." That was the attitude last week, and now we have Deputies coming here to-day— I have heard one Deputy after another speaking along the same lines —telling us that land purchase has not been expedited and has not been operating as rapidly as they would like to see it.

I rather sympathise with the Parliamentary Secretary, because I am one of those who have complained, not inconsistently but quite consistently, about the delay in the matter of land purchase. I sympathise particularly with the Parliamentary Secretary because of the extraordinary policy of the Opposition Party. Not only on Friday, but again to-night, we had speakers making the most remarkable statements. I suppose speakers from the chief Opposition Party will follow me and will declare that what they advocated last week is still their policy. I do not know if it is to be taken that it is the policy of the Opposition to punish the non-judicial holder. We are told to-night that they wish the Land Commission to give preference to the judicial tenants. I cannot understand that.

Will Deputy Wolfe tell us who said that? If he is referring to what I said, he is not quite accurate. What I said was that there is no difficulty about dealing with judicial tenants. Does the Deputy contradict that?

Mr. Wolfe

I repeat that anybody who read the Bill which was before the House last Friday, and which Deputy Derrig supported, will see that on its face it aimed at putting back for years to come the non-judicial tenants of the country. It said as clearly as it could put it that the judicial tenants ought to get preference. Is that the policy of the Opposition Party? If they have changed since Friday, let them say it. The policy I was always in favour of, and am still in favour of, is aiding the non-judicial tenant, because the man most hit by delay in land purchase is the non-judicial tenant. He is the man to whom above all others the earliest form of relief should come. I do not think this House should agree with the policy that the chief Opposition Party asks us to approve, and that is to throw to the dogs the non-judicial tenant.

I think it was Deputy O'Reilly, in his very interesting speech, spoke in favour of the relief of congestion by the acquisition of land. Again, I was wondering if he was the same Deputy O'Reilly who voted on Friday last for a Bill which had as one of its main objects the taking from the Land Commission of the power to acquire land compulsorily for the relief of congestion. That was one of its main objects. That would have been the effect of the Bill, if it passed. Anybody who understands the plain meaning of the English language, anybody reading the Bill that was before the House on Friday and reading Section 24 of the Act of 1923, and knowing the first thing, not about law but about the English language, would know that it would have that effect and no other. Is that policy of Friday last still the policy of the official Opposition Party? Are they still in favour of taking from the Land Commission, as they tried to take it on Friday, the power of acquiring land compulsorily for the relief of congestion? Do they still wish to take that power from them? If so, all I say is that their policy of land purchase is the funniest policy I ever heard of, and I do not believe for one moment that it will receive any sympathy from any section of the House.

I move to report progress.

Progress ordered to be reported

The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress reported: Committee to sit again to-morrow.
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