Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 May 1929

Vol. 29 No. 16

Adjournment Debate. - Danger of Infection from Second-hand Clothing.

Dr. Ward

The subject matter which I wish to raise now arises out of a question I addressed to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health on Wednesday of last week. The question, and the answer to it, are as follows:—

Dr. Ward asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health whether he will specify the ports at which second-hand clothing is admitted to the Saorstát, and whether he will state in detail the precautions that are being taken by his Department to insure that such clothing is not capable of conveying infectious or contagious disease.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney: I would refer the Deputy to the Small-pox (Importation of Clothing, etc.) Temporary Regulations, 1927, which came into effect on the 1st September, 1927, and are still in operation, under which second-hand clothing, used bedding and rags may only be imported into Saorstát Eireann from Great Britain and Northern Ireland through the ports of Dublin, Cork, Waterford or Galway, where it becomes the duty of the Port Sanitary authority to undertake the disinfection of the articles and return them to the custody of the Customs and Excise authorities, subject to the following exemptions: (1) articles transmitted by the postal service or forming part of passengers' luggage; (2) goods in course of transit through Saorstát Eireann to an outside destination, if suitably packed; (3) articles accompanied by a certificate of the Medical Officer of Health of the place of origin in Great Britain or Northern Ireland or of the port of arrival in Ireland that they had been efficiently disinfected; (4) articles accompanied by a certificate from a Medical Officer of Health in Northern Ireland that they had not been imported from Great Britain.

Now, I think it cannot be disputed that if it is possible for second-hand clothing to get into this area without thorough disinfection, a danger to the health of the community arises out of that state of affairs. I understand that this material is for the most part collected in public institutions in England, Scotland and Wales, in such places as hospitals, jails, sanatoria, etc., and, owing to the economic conditions existing in this country, a very big trade is being done in this second-hand clothing at the present time. I think it is a far greater trade than any Deputy in this House realises. I went into the approximate figures with the Customs' authorities in my own district, in the road and rail station at Monaghan, and I found that approximately £5,000 worth of these goods are imported through that station annually. I do not know what the value of the entire importation into the Free State would be, but it must run into a very big figure, seeing that it is so high in a station like Monaghan. The poor people are glad to buy this clothing because of their poverty and its cheapness. It is not my intention in this matter to deprive them of this cheap form of clothing. What I do want to ensure is that if they are forced through economic conditions to buy this clothing they will buy it with safety to themselves, and with safety to their neighbours.

It is an undoubted fact that in recent years the matter has been commented on by medical men that skin diseases have become prevalent and mysterious outbreaks of contagious and infectious diseases, some of them indeed of a very deadly nature, are occurring. The origin of these diseases has not been effectively traced by the Public Health authorities. There are peculiar features in some of these outbreaks. I drew the attention of the House on the Local Government Vote to a small epidemic of typhoid that occurred in Monaghan. That was a fatal epidemic. It was confined to one family, but there were four deaths. I understand that in other parts of the county there have been similar mysterious cases with fatal consequences. I understand further that the medical officer of health in that area attributed this particular outbreak to the importation of second-hand clothing. As I have already said, these outbreaks have some peculiar features. They are peculiar in their high mortality, and they are peculiar in their virulence. That suggests to me, and to more eminent authorities than I profess to be, that these diseases are not the ordinary diseases of their class that have their origin in this country. It certainly is possible, if effective disinfection of second-hand clothing is not being carried out, that these diseases could be brought in through that medium. It is certainly possible that these diseases have been conveyed through that means.

When I raised this matter before, the Minister for Local Government and Public Health did not appear to be conversant with the conditions under which second-hand clothing is being imported. I do not wish to labour that point, but I think if the Minister is not conversant with a particular question raised here—and that question is an important one —it would be better he should admit he is not particularly clear on the matter, and that nobody should be deceived or misled by the answer.

General Mulcahy

I wonder to what the Deputy is referring?

Dr. Ward

I am referring to the Minister's statement on the Local Government Vote in this House, which I will quote if necessary. He said:—

"Arising out of the small-pox position in Britain, a number of months ago regulations were introduced to secure that all second-hand clothing would have to come in through certain ports and would have to be examined and disinfected there."

Later on, at the close of the debate, I asked the Minister if it were possible, even by paying duty, for second-hand clothing to be admitted by the land frontier, and the Minister replied:—

"Customs officials cannot admit second-hand clothes; their instructions are that second-hand clothing must come in through definite, specified ports."

That does not tally altogether with the actual condition of affairs.

I suggested to the Minister for Local Government at that time, and I beg to repeat the suggestion, that second-hand clothing, if admitted at all to the country, should be disinfected at the point of entrance. If it is to be admitted across the Border by land stations it should be disinfected at the point of entry. For that purpose it would be necessary to specify certain stations at which such material could be admitted. I do not think that we should be at the mercy of any outside sanitary authority to protect ourselves in a serious matter like this, which involves the lives of our people. The people who have to buy this particular class of clothing, owing to circumstances over which they have no control, are entitled to protection and security and, as I have said, their neighbours are entitled to similar protection and security. When these diseases come into the country they do not recognise any social distinctions, or political distinctions for that matter. I would like to urge upon the Minister not to approach this matter from any party point of view, because I have not raised this question for any political or party purpose. I have many supporters amongst the people who trade in second-hand clothing, and there are people amongst them, too, who have a certain admiration for the Minister for Local Government. There is no accounting for these things, but that is an undoubted fact.

It is very difficult for anybody other than a medical man to grasp the importance of such a question as this. If the Minister would obtain the certificates of disinfection that are being issued submitted to the Public Health Department, I think he would find some peculiar discrepancies. I have not seen many of them, but I have seen some of them, and I do not think that all the certificates that purport to be issued by the medical officer of health are in the same handwriting. The Minister can verify this matter and have it put to the test. Certificates signed by some medical officers of health in the Six-County area, notably in the case of Belfast, are signed by a person on behalf of the medical officer of health. I do not think that should be so. If this clothing is to be admitted on a certificate that it is safe and that it has been effectively disinfected, the least that should be insisted upon is that the actual certificate should be issued by the medical officer of health himself.

At the present time there is a large consignment of that material at Monaghan Station. If the Minister would send down one of his medical inspectors while it is there, I think the Minister would agree with me that something more stringent would be required than the existing regulations. I saw a certificate there issued by the sanitary authorities in Glasgow, and the very wording of the certificate would suggest that it was not issued even under the supervision of the medical officer of health. The certificate set out that a number of articles had been disinfected in a certain consignment, and included in these articles were brass fittings and a frying pan. I do not think that a medical officer of health ever issued a certificate that he had efficiently and effectively disinfected a frying pan. The exemptions to the Small-pox (Importation of Clothing, etc.) Temporary Regulations, 1927, that I have mentioned here are really the danger: For instance "Articles accompanied by a certificate of the medical officer of health of the place of origin in Great Britain or Northern Ireland." When a medical officer of health in England certifies that a certain consignment of clothing in the possession of a certain person has been effectively disinfected, that person can on that certificate send the consignment across here, but there is nothing to prevent such person, say in a remote town or city in England, disposing of that consignment in another part of England and sending across, on that same certificate, a substitute consignment that has not been disinfected at all.

The position under the fourth exemption is not as it should be—"Articles accompanied by a certificate from a medical officer of health in Northern Ireland that they had not been imported from Great Britain." How is a medical officer of health in Northern Ireland to know that articles of clothing had their origin in the Six County area? The next point is that on the certificate of the medical officer of health in Northern Ireland that these clothes had their origin in Northern Ireland, they can be admitted without any disinfection whatever. I think common sense should suggest to the Minister that we are as liable to get contagion from the Six Counties as from England, and that it is at least as necessary that second-hand clothing having its origin in that area should be as adequately and as effectively disinfected as clothing coming from anywhere else.

Dr. O'Dowd

I desire to support the plea made by Deputy Dr. Ward for better supervision in the disinfection of second-hand clothing at the point of entrance to the Saorstát. He has dealt with the question of the danger of the spread of disease from second-hand clothing. He has specifically dealt with typhoid fever, and he also mentioned small-pox. In a country where the regulations are so stringent in regard to vaccination and where the Department over which the Minister presides has taken such drastic steps to enforce vaccination, we should be also equally stringent about the regulations for the disinfection of second-hand clothing at the point of entrance. In to-day's "Irish Independent" it is reported that the Medical Officer of Health for Cork has stated that there is a danger of contact with small-pox in Cork. I think in future the Minister should take every precaution to see that second-hand clothing entering, not alone Cork, but any other area, is thoroughly disinfected. It is well known that one of the great means of spreading small-pox, one of the most deadly of diseases, is second-hand clothing. We have an instance of typhoid fever being conveyed by bad water and sewerage arrangements. We have had an instance within the last six or seven weeks of a very serious outbreak, and at the present moment a bye-election is pending for this House owing to an outbreak of typhoid fever. It may not have been due to second-hand clothing, but we should not wait, as the Ministry did in the case of the Carrick-on-Shannon outbreak, until an outbreak takes place before taking proper steps. We should not wait to lock the stable until after the horse is gone. The warning is sounded now, and I hope it will be taken in the spirit in which it is given—a purely non-party spirit.

General Mulcahy

I do not understand this talk about a non-party spirit, except it is to suggest that sufficient precautions in matters of public health, arising not only out of second-hand clothing, but other matters, are not taken by the Department. I repudiate these suggestions, and I say that even if we turn to the question of typhoid fever, no specific case has been made here to-night that second-hand clothing spreads that disease in this country.

Dr. O'Dowd

Does the Minister deny the fact that typhoid fever can be conveyed through second-hand clothing?

General Mulcahy

I deny that any case is made here to-night to that effect. I deny that there has been any substantial representation from any medical officer of health to the Department of Public Health that second-hand clothing should be looked after because typhoid fever is being spread by it.

Dr. Ward

Would the Minister send down an inspector to see the consignment at Monaghan Station at present?

General Mulcahy

I am addressing myself to the matter raised here—to the question of second-hand clothing. Certain regulations have been introduced to deal with the second-hand clothing business from the point of view of disinfection to the extent necessary. That question arose solely out of the small-pox position in Great Britain and was dealt with solely from that point of view. When medical experience in the country dictates to the public health authorities here that further measures to deal with second-hand clothing are necessary because of other factors in regard to the spread of disease in the country, then we can reconsider the position and what further measures are required in the matter of second-hand clothing. The present position arose out of the fact that for some time past a small-pox epidemic, of rather increasing dimensions from 1922, has existed in Great Britain. As early as July, 1923, very detailed instructions were sent to all medical officers of health with regard to every aspect of every possible situation that might arise out of contacts coming from Britain or the disease developing here. From 1st September, 1927, certain regulations with regard to the control of second-hand clothing were introduced. I am not quite clear what Deputy Dr. Ward's attitude is. As far as I understand it, his attitude would seem to be that second-hand clothing should be allowed in at the four ports or at an additional number of places, and that second-hand clothing coming in here should be disinfected at these ports or at these places. I am not clear as to what it is he suggests, but I take it that is what he means.

Dr. Ward

I could make it clear.

General Mulcahy

If I could deal with our attitude——

Dr. Ward

If the Minister is not clear I should like to remove any misapprehensions from his mind.

General Mulcahy

I should have been clear enough if the Deputy addressed himself to the point of second-hand clothing coming into this country unaccompanied by the certificate of the medical officer of health. If it comes to these four ports and is there disinfected, disinfection takes place at the public expense. The situation, as far as we are concerned, does not seem to be such as to require greater precautions than those existing. We accept second-hand clothing accompanied by a medical certificate in certain circumstances. The great bulk of second-hand clothing coming into this country comes from Glasgow or Scotland in pretty large consignments. It has to be accompanied by a Customs declaration, by an invoice specifying the different articles in it, by a medical certificate—if it comes from a Scotch town, from the medical officer of health in that town— that the clothes have been disinfected.

Dr. Ward

Has the Minister seen any of the certificates?

General Mulcahy

I have not seen them, but I am explaining what the position is. Consignments reaching the Customs Officer must have a Customs declaration, an invoice and a medical certificate. If there was any reason to suspect that these certificates were not quite in keeping with the contents of the consignments then we would have had representations from the Customs officers to that effect.

Dr. Ward

Does the Minister suggest that I have made a misstatement when I said a certificate has been signed by a Mr. Jones on behalf of the medical officer of health in Glasgow?

General Mulcahy

I do not in the least, but I do suggest that if a consignment of second-hand clothing comes in here to Dublin, as many of them may, the medical officer of health in person, Dr. Russell, should not be called upon to detach himself from his important duties to go down to superintend the work of disinfection. The persons who are employed under him may be fully relied upon to do it. If second-hand clothing is going to become such a very important matter in our lives that the city medical officer has himself in person to go down to superintend the disinfecting of any consignments that arrive here, let us have a case made for it. There is no case made here that second-hand clothing has been the cause of any single case of sickness here. If the facts are that that danger is there, let our medical officers of health get down to that particular case and let us have the facts brought home. At the present moment, while it is not disinfected at the public expense, second-hand clothing comes in with the safeguard that is provided in Customs documents, and we accept the report of medical officers in the Six-County area or Great Britain that consignments sent here have been properly disinfected by them.

Dr. Ward

What has the Minister to say to Clause IV., which says that if the clothing has its origin in the Six-County area it need not be disinfected at all?

General Mulcahy

We get a certificate from the medical officer of health there that it has come from there and not from Great Britain. The Deputy has raised the question that though the medical officer of health does not know he gives a certificate. I think we may rely on medical standards in these days when we are members of international sanitary conventions, and when countries give an undertaking to establish fairly elaborate machinery to prevent the spread of infectious disease and to keep one another advised in order to prevent the spread of disease.

Mr. Moore

Surely the Governments do not undertake responsibility for individual doctors?

General Mulcahy

We may expect the attitude of the Governments to react on all these medical officers who are Government employees to do their work in a proper, scientific and responsible spirit. If we cannot depend on medical officers in the Six County area or Great Britain to do the work properly, is it suggested the only medical officers we can depend upon to do it are the medical officers here? I think that would be unjust.

Dr. Ward

Will the Minister state why is it unnecessary to disinfect second-hand clothing coming from the Six County area?

General Mulcahy

Because no single case of the spread of disease, either typhoid or any other disease, has been traced to clothes coming from the Six County area.

Dr. O'Dowd

Does the Minister suggest that the Local Government Department should not take any steps until we have an outbreak?

General Mulcahy

An outbreak of what?

Dr. O'Dowd

An outbreak of typhoid fever, scabies, small-pox, or any other infectious disease.

General Mulcahy

The attitude of the Department is that in so far as the elaborate disinfecting of second-hand clothing, either here or at the ports, may be required, the only important consideration in the matter is the consideration of the presence of small-pox in England.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 16th May, 1929.