Private Deputies' Business. - Shipment of Cattle from Dublin. – Dáil Éireann (6th Dáil) – Wednesday, 22 May 1929

Private Deputies' Business. - Shipment of Cattle from Dublin.

Mr. O'Hanlon

I move:

That having regard to the lack of proper facilities for the shipment of cattle from Dublin port and the fact that the carrying trade from the Free State to British ports is practically non-competitive, the Dáil is of opinion that the Executive Council should confer with the Dublin commissioners, the Dublin Port and Docks Board, and the Cattle Traders' Association with a view to the erection of suitable municipal lairages at the North Wall and for facilities for berthage convenient thereto."

This motion is on the paper for thirteen months, and I owe an apology to the House for dragging the cattle of this country, worth something like nineteen million pounds, into an atmosphere reeking with the odour of bombs and blood. As I have stated, this question of the lairages in Dublin has been before the Government for thirteen months. While I do not want to anticipate the reply of the Minister, I should have much preferred that in the long interval which has elepsed the necessity for moving the motion had been removed. However, it appears that I have to go on, and in the circumstances I must try and read some of the notes which I wrote thirteen months ago, although the ink on the paper has almost faded away.

Anyone connected with the cattle industry in this country will agree with me that the conditions and arrangements for the shipment of live-stock from our ports, more particularly our principal port of Dublin, leave much to be desired. In fact, it would appear, so far as my investigations go, that the Government take very little interest in this very important industry. The question of lairages, transit, etc., everything leading up to the export of the cattle, seems to be left in the hands of the railway and shipping companies without any proper control or supervision or any great interest being shown in the matter by the Government. I shall run over briefly what the conditions are at present and what I suggest they should be.

Under present conditions in the lairages in Dublin it is almost impossible to have proper veterinary inspection of animals. This is rendered difficult owing to the fact that the yards and lairages are scattered and considerable unnecessary strain is, therefore, placed on veterinary inspectors in watching the animals. After being rejected in one pen animals are constantly taken to other pens on the chance of their being passed eventually. The cattle, after long journeys, do not get sufficient time in Dublin to rest and feed after discharge from the railways and before being put on the ship for the sea journey. From investigations I have made, it appears that some years ago, after an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease—I think in 1912 or 1913—the British authorities suggested to the then Department of Agriculture that cattle should be detained at Irish ports for at least twelve hours before shipment. I am sorry to say that the cattle traders at the time did not think that was a reasonable request. In any case, they turned down the proposition and suggested that two hours was sufficient detention to rest the cattle. That was agreed to at once by the British authorities, but to safeguard themselves I suppose, and in order to see that their own inspection would be a satisfactory one, they imposed a detention of ten hours on the other side. If we have any respect for our cattle trade and the conditions under which we put our live-stock on the market, we should see to it that our cattle are exported in the best possible condition.

If this long and essential period of detention of the cattle in this country is to be carried out, it is absolutely necessary that properly-equipped lairages should be provided at the North Wall. If that is done, there is no reason why the cattle for export cannot be detained here for twelve hours, instead of two hours on this side and ten hours on the other side, so that the cattle when they are heated and excited and footsore may cool off and the veterinary inspectors may have a proper opportunity of seeing that no cattle unfit for export are sent away, and that they can stand over any animal sent out of the country.

A twelve-hour detention period at this side would also be of advantage to the city of Dublin, but I am not arguing for the city of Dublin. I am interested in the farmers and the prosperity of the State as a whole. If, however, you view the matter from the point of view of the workers in Dublin, it would be of great advantage to them. When there is a detention period necessary, if we dealt with the situation here ourselves, and if proper lairage accommodation was provided, and put under the control of the Department of Agriculture, a good deal of much-needed employment would be given to Dublin workers in feeding and watering and attending to the cattle. In addition to that, hay and other products of this country would be consumed here instead of having to be bought at the other side. That is a side-issue, but it is important from the employment point of view in Dublin. It would not alone be a benefit to the port of Dublin, but it would be of benefit to the cattle industry, and I think it is very necessary. If that were done, people on the other side would have greater confidence when buying our cattle. Under present conditions our live-stock, particularly fat cattle which are exported, suffer very materially in value owing to our neglect of our business on this side.

I heard it publicly stated that a gentleman who came across here from Glasgow a couple of years ago had an interview with the Minister for Agriculture in the Free State and also with the Minister for Agriculture in Northern Ireland and he made a statement to the effect that deterioration in cattle exported to Glasgow amounted to £1,000,000 per annum, due to the conditions prevailing in the transit of the cattle and the driving to the ports. That was a very large item, and all this money comes ultimately out of the pockets of the farmers. The cattle dealer must save himself. He says "this animal is worth so much when it arrives on the other side allowing for deterioration in shipment from Ireland." If we did our business here in a way that would inspire confidence in those to whom we sell on the other side, it would mean a benefit, on the lowest estimation, of 30/- per head on fat cattle and a proportionately smaller sum on stores and other livestock.

Besides the deterioration in the value of cattle, due to the lack of facilities, we must remember that that deals only with cattle coming from the Dublin market. Take cattle that have been sent by rail—perhaps a ten, twelve or fourteen hours' journey from the west, or the south, or the midlands. We know what happens to these cattle. They are driven perhaps three, four, five or six miles to a fair; they are kept standing on the fair green for hours; then they are rushed to the train and loaded on trucks for Liffey Junction or for Amiens Street. They are rushed from there to the North Wall, with its so-called lairages, and after two hours' detention to rest, after 24 hours on foot, they are sent across to the English markets. It is unnecessary to explain what that means in the appearance of the animals and in their value when they arrive at the other side. It is of the greatest importance that we should pay attention to the export of our cattle, which mean 43 per cent. of our total exports.

I have already mentioned, but it is no harm to emphasise, and point that it is of vital importance in connection with our export trade in cattle that the lairages should be under the control of the Department of Agriculture. Under the present conditions there is great difficulty in handling, and things happen on this side during the veterinary inspection that would not be tolerated on the other side. If we have no respect for our products we cannot expect people in England to teach us our business. They did the best they could in the past, yet we do not seem to have benefited. It is very important from the point of view of guaranteeing our trade and seeing that everything is done right that the Department of Agriculture should have absolute control over the lairages. There are some lairages run by individuals and railway companies and shipping companies, but I say it is the Government's duty to take complete control of the lairages and to be responsible for the conditions to which our cattle are exposed.

There is looseness at present. A lot of drovers and dealers and others are allowed to interfere with the veterinary inspectors in their work, and all this does not tend towards efficiency. If this matter was looked after and handled by the Government, all these abuses would disappear. In other countries, they never allow outsiders into the lairages until the inspection work is completed. I have consulted many people, and they all say that there is a deterioration of 30/- per head in fat cattle and from that down to 15/-per head in various other branches of livestock due to this deterioration. If you look at the figures of our exports, you will find that this loss to the country from inefficiency, inattention and indifference would make a very considerable difference in our trade balance in the future.

There is another matter which is not, strictly speaking, within the compass of the motion I move, but I think I would not be straining the matter very far to introduce it here. That is the question of the Dublin Cattle Market. That has to do with the shipment of cattle and the proper condition of lairages. The market at present is condemned by everybody who has anything to do with the cattle business or who knows anything about it—both those at home and those who come over here to buy. The market is entirely unsuitable. Up to the present, it is not properly equipped as a market to deal with the numbers it has to deal with. It is too far removed from the railways and other points of shipment. Added to all the trouble there is in dealing with things at the North Wall, when the cattle are bought at the market they are rushed to Liffey Junction or Amiens Street or the Great Southern Railway. A great many of these cattle go up North and arrive there without rest. They get no period of detention at all. They are sent from the Dublin market North, so they must arrive at their destination in a pretty bad condition indeed.

I think it would be well that the Government, in dealing with this matter—if they intend to deal with it —should go into the whole question of providing a proper cattle market for the city of Dublin, which has to deal with probably over 50 per cent. of the cattle exports, and which would deal with much more if proper facilities were given. I know that that has been going on for a number of years. I am not blaming the present Government for that, but we want them to get alive to what is happening. For years, when cattle were bought in the west of Ireland and in the midlands, and even in the south of Ireland, the natural port of shipment for them was Dublin, but they would not be allowed to go through Dublin. Years ago—and I am informed that the same practice obtains to-day—at Ballinasloe Fair and some of the other big fairs in Ireland, the shipping companies' canvassers attended the fairs. Long ago it used to be the practice for the shipping companies' representatives and the Great Northern Railway representative to attend these fairs and guarantee shipping through Belfast, and get the cattle through Belfast for England. The Free State railways would not guarantee shipment, and the consequence was that the whole traffic went the other way. We have faults here. I think possibly there is not a proper understanding between the railways and the shipping companies, or, on the other hand, the Free State shipping companies are not doing their business rightly and are allowing the Great Northern Railway to beat them every time.

This question of a cattle market in Dublin is one of great importance and even though everything might be done to equip it, to put proper lairage accommodation there, to have it covered, and to have it so that the cattle could lie down and rest and be in proper condition for shipment after all necessary detention—if all that was done we would still have the problem of the cattle market being an unsuitable place. Considerable loss has accrued to every one concerned and the State in particular, owing to the fact that the cattle market is where it is and is not properly equipped. From the information that I have, there is, I understand, quite efficient accommodation, something like 23 or 24 acres, right beside the port, at the different places where the boats are at the North Wall, which would provide properly equipped lairages and also a properly covered cattle market for the city. If that were done I have no doubt we would get all the trade coming through Dublin which Dublin is entitled to, and until that is done we cannot make complaints about other people who do their business better, getting better business than this city. I know very well that here in the City of Dublin there are some people who may possibly consider that they have certain vested interests round about the site of the present cattle market. But all those things would have to be dealt with. I do not want to destroy anyone's interests in whatever property they have. The interests of the State come first. If necessary, those people should be compensated, and if not, they should not stand in the way of having the market placed in a proper position so that cattle sent out from this country will be marketed under the best conditions and so that this country will get the best value which they would get if things were worked in the right way.

Dealing with the question of monopoly in the carrying trade, I say it is practically non-competitive. I might have gone the whole way and said it is non-competitive. At present we have several shipping companies which comprise a monopoly. There was a time when we had nine Irish companies financed by Irish capital and when, in consequence of competition for this trade, there was a competitive rate. Cattle could be sent across for something like 4/10 per head. The price now is 16/6.

Mr. Gorey

To where?

Mr. O'Hanlon

To Birkenhead. The price now is 16/6, because twelve lines are all amalgamated under the heading of Coast Lines, and the consequence is that the Irish farmer and the Irish Free State are losing, I should say, hundreds of thousands a year by the very fact that there is no competition in this business. The question of berthage comes into this very largely. It is very difficult for anyone to get berthage at a Dublin port. At the time the famous vessel, "The Brussels," was put on—it did not last very long—it was supposed to be competitive. It was originally put on to be a competitive vessel, but very soon it was absorbed by the octopus of Coast Lines. At that time there was considerable opposition to the people who purchased "The Brussels" getting any berthage at the North Wall. They had a great deal of trouble. A great deal of lobbying and canvassing was carried on with the Port and Docks Board, with strong opposition from those members of the Port and Docks Board who controlled not alone the Port and Docks Board but very nearly the Chamber of Commerce in Dublin. The gentlemen who were running these Coast Lines are the gentlemen who obstructed competition in the Port and Docks Board, and they themselves were the Port and Docks Board. At that time the Dublin Corporation was in existence and had a number of representatives, seven or eight, on the Port and Docks Board. Were it not for the fact that those representatives were there on the Port and Docks Board, no facilities in berthage would be given to "The Brussels" and competition would never have come. Having been beaten on the question of berthage and of "The Brussels" being put on, the next best thing was to buy "The Brussels" at a fancy price. It was bought at an exorbitant price; in fact, nearly all the vessels recently acquired by Coast Lines were bought at peak prices. What is the result? This monopoly is paying much higher dividends to-day on inflated capital out of the farmers' pockets than the combined companies could pay when they were in competition. I was informed that in 1926 the profit on Coast Lines, Ltd., ran to something like £38,000. Last year it was nearly half a million. That half a million of inflated capital is coming out of the pockets of the farmers and going away from the Free State because all the profit made by this monopoly is not paying one halfpenny as a return by way of income tax or anything else to this country.

We may have flattered these gentlemen at a little function which took place here the other day and which I was glad to see brought about, that was the starting of the floating exhibition of Irish goods, in "The Killarney." The President, the Vice-President and others were present. It is a good idea, rather a novel idea, to have a floating exhibition of Irish products going around England. It is even a better idea to have the ship named "The Killarney," but it would be still a better idea if the ship were owned by an Irish company. The name was the only thing Irish about the ship. I see that other vessels have been built to carry Irish produce and profit out of Ireland, not in Dublin or even Belfast but across the other side, and they all have Irish names, such as "The Lady Meath,""The Killarney," and others. We must be gullible people when we allow those monopolists to come in and use Irish names on their ships, and not give us one halfpenny in return. Perhaps it was this thought that was in the Vice-President's mind when he spoke at this function the other day. It would appear that Coast Lines, Limited, gave the use of this vessel, "The Killarney," for the occasion. "The Minister for Finance said that he would like to thank Sir Alfred Read and the company over which he presided, not only for his hospitality but for his enterprise. It was a great thing that they had a firm carrying their produce to the most important market that was not going on the old lines but which was taking every opportunity that offered"—and all the money that was offered too—"and was always looking for new ways to develop that trade and to develop industry in this country." I do not see any new ways of developing trade by taking all the profits they make out of the country, but perhaps the Minister for Finance was tremendously impressed by the fact that the principal agent for Coast Lines in this country was a very clever man. "He should also like to say a few words about Mr. David Barry. They recognised in him a keen and sound business man who not only desired the good of this country but realised as a business man that the advancement of this country was for the good of the company." Certainly, but he recognised the fact too that possibly Mr. David Barry is the only citizen—I suppose he is a citizen—that the Revenue Commissioners have not been able to get at, and in that way I think anything that might be said flattering him as a business man was amply justified. Few of us can earn a living in the Free State and earn big dividends from our companies and not pay, but surely Mr. David Barry should have the four-leaved shamrock when he succeeded in doing it.

Mr. Good

The attack was made on an individual.

Mr. O'Hanlon

I withdraw the attack on the individual. I am talking entirely on the question of the representative of Coast Lines. I am very sorry. I apologise to the individual but not to the representative of Coast Lines. I am dealing now with 43 per cent. of the exports of the Free State, but the whole of the exports are dealt with by a monopolist company. I think it is only right that the Government should take notice of that fact and provide whatever means are in their power—they are all-powerful in other directions and they should be all-powerful in this direction—to deal with it. Not alone the cattle export trade, but all our carrying is non-competitive in this country. That is a matter that the Government should take serious notice of. Without attempting to injure the business of anybody, it is their duty to see that our goods are put on the market in the best possible condition.

If I may quote again from the statement made at that little function, I notice that the President very properly dealt with the fact that there was not a fleet of vessels. As he said, it is not one vessel we should have showing off our produce, but a fleet of vessels. We have not even one vessel to show off our produce. We still have to go to somebody else to get a vessel, which is a disgraceful state of affairs for a country exporting so largely and depending so much on our exports. I will quote the exact words of the President:

"In the forefront," he said, "I place our trade in live stock with Great Britain. This trade alone is one of the largest and most important of its kind subsisting between any two countries in the world. Last year the total value of that trade to the Saorstát amounted to £19,230,097—representing 43 per cent. of the aggregate value of our domestic exports."

I might conclude my remarks by adopting every word of what the President has said with regard to our live stock exports. I think I could not emphasise the necessity for doing something more strongly than by using that quotation from the President's speech. He recognises the importance of the export trade in live stock, and I think it is time that some steps were taken to put our live animals on the market in a proper condition.

I hope that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, when he comes to reply, will be able to say that already something has been done, that some steps have been taken to provide competition in the transit trade, and also to provide lairages. As to the form of this motion, I will be quite willing to amend it. As I said at the start, it has been on the Order Paper for thirteen months. When I put on the motion it was not nearly so important as it is to-day, for the reason that I then hoped, and a number of people hoped, that our live stock export trade would gradually reduce, that it would be changed into a dead meat trade. At that time, we had the Drogheda factory re-established, and we had hopes—at least, I had hopes—that it would be run on such lines that we would gradually drift from exporting our fat cattle to exporting dead meat, thereby being enabled to provide other industries from the hides and offals of the animals. Now, the Drogheda Factory is a failure and there is not much likelihood of anybody re-starting it. After two failures at Drogheda, nobody is likely to put down any considerable sum of money in order to start once more the dead meat trade there.

To-day, then, this motion is of far greater importance because we are going to be tied to the live-stock business for a considerably longer time than I expected. The motion is, therefore, more important than it was thirteen months ago. I should like, with the permission of the House, to alter my motion in so far as the question of a conference with the Dublin Commissioners, the Port and Docks Board and the Cattle Traders' Association is concerned. Perhaps it might be considered derogatory for the Government to consult with these people, but I set down the motion with the idea that the Government would take all the necessary steps and secure the information essential to deal with this situation. After thirteen months it is only natural to assume—I hope I am right in so assuming—that various channels of information have been tapped. I suggest, therefore, that the motion might be altered to read: "That the Executive Council should take steps to provide suitable municipal lairages at the North Wall with facilities for berthage convenient thereto." If that is agreeable to the House, I would like so to amend the motion. If that procedure is not approved, I will let the motion go in its present form.

Mr. Moore

Could the Executive Council provide municipal lairages?

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely not. I think the motion is better in its present form. What the Deputy suggests—that the Executive Council should take steps for the erection of suitable municipal lairages—contains something in the nature of a contradiction in terms.

Mr. O'Hanlon

The word "municipal" will have to go out.

An Ceann Comhairle

I think the motion is better if left in its present form. It would be a different motion altogether in its altered form; it would be calling on the Executive Council to do something which normally they do not do.

Mr. Gorey

I beg to second the motion. I have not been briefed as well as Deputy O'Hanlon. I do not know what is the power of the Government in this matter. I do not know what power they would have if all the accommodation available there is given away to some private company. Evidently at some time somebody gave away the site and it is now a question between the railway companies and the shipping companies. If the site is divided between these companies, legislation would certainly be needed to take away from them sites that they cannot show cause for retaining. I think it will be admitted that all the markets on the other side are very different now from the markets that existed there formerly. The Dublin market is an open market; all the markets on the other side are enclosed. I mean by that, that they are roofed. If such a market were to be constructed here it would mean the expenditure of a lot of money. The one thing upon which we must make up our minds is that the monopoly of the shipping trade of the country cannot remain in the hands of one set of individuals. It is no wonder the freightages are so high. There is really no competition, because competition is shut out. It may be stated that there is no space there and that we cannot interfere. I hold there is space, or space could be made. I have only seen that part of the city once and I obtained my view from the top of a tram. I saw a lot of strand that could very easily be converted into excellent sites merely by allowing it to be used as a dumping ground for city refuse. I saw a very flat shore on which very little water comes. That could easily be made an excellent site.

This debate will have served one good purpose if it has the effect of inducing the Dublin Commissioners, the Government, or whatever authority may be concerned, to provide more space there to meet this or any other situation that may arise. It is really the proper place for a market. The railway lines from all over the country meet there and quite adjacent you have the docks. We know the trouble that exists at Cabra, where cattle are taken off in the middle of the night, where the accommodation is poor and where there are really very little facilities. The cattle have to be left in the wagons until such time as men come in the morning to take them off. I am not talking about the West because I do not know much about it, but I know that in Kilkenney cattle are loaded at nine or ten o'clock in the morning and one is lucky if he sees those cattle at five o'clock the next morning at Cabra. They are shunted about day and night at different stations and they arrive in such a condition that you would scarcely know your cattle in the Dublin market. I often had cattle at the Dublin market and only I happened to know each beast individually I could scarcely recognise them in the morning.

Deputy O'Hanlon has referred to the condition of cattle arriving on the other side. One thing very largely responsible for that is the method of penning cattle on the boat. Much better facilities are given now than formerly; more penning space is given, I will admit, but there is no additional space overhead. Cattle have to remain on these boats from twelve to fourteen hours on the Birkenhead route—it all depends on the route—from the time they are penned until they are discharged; on the Glasgow route they are left much longer, about twenty-four hours. The only thing you could liken the conditions on the boat to is a Turkish bath at a very high temperature.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is speaking outside the motion.

Mr. Gorey

I know it is outside the motion, but it has been spoken of already. Anyone who has seen Irish cattle at the other side can easily recognise the conditions the cattle must have passed through before they arrive at Birkenhead or Glasgow. They are actually dead to the world, and the only explanation is that they have been almost sweated to death. It is quite apparent that the loss on these cattle must be very considerable. In such a situation it is necessary for whoever has authority to do it to remedy the position. In Aberdeen, Glasgow and Birkenhead they have much better facilities than we have. Their markets are all covered in. The proper place for our market is the place where we have all transport facilities converging. You have your railway lines and shipping situated very conveniently at the North Wall. For that matter you have conveniences on the other side of the river, but I think the north side would be better. I am not briefed, as I have already said. I say it is up to whomsoever can do it to put this matter right. I expect it must be done through legislation. If people have a monopoly of the space at present available down there, it is either through pressure or through means of legislation that this can be rectified. Alternative space is there. If that space were only used as a dumping ground for the refuse of Dublin, there would be made available in a very short time 30 or 40 acres on the north side.

Mr. M. O'Reilly

I am glad that this opportunity has occurred of discussing certain phases of the transportation of live stock. I am sorry that it is not possible to go more deeply into the matter. We have been hearing for a great number of years of the importance of this industry. We have been told that it produces 42 per cent. of the wealth of the nation. I do not believe that there is a single industry in this country to which less attention has been paid. Largely through that inattention, and through the want of shipping and lairage facilities, we have been forced to export store cattle instead of fat cattle. That alone is a very serious loss in the wealth of the nation.

If economic principles are correct, it is always wrong to export raw material. We are exporting raw material and we are largely turning from fat cattle to the export of store cattle for the reasons that we have not fair or proper facilities at our principal ports. It is there that the whole industry is controlled. If we continue at the present rate, and if we allow monopolies to do as they please, and not just as little as we want them to do, I fear that the result will be that the whole cattle trade of this country will soon be a purely store trade.

There were times in this country when those shipping and transport companies adopted a more reasonable attitude, and that was before this monopoly system was introduced. Even the men who cross to England to sell cattle had facilities. They got certain considerations for the amount of money as freights that was paid through them. Shipping companies then took a reasonable, business-like view, but I fear that there is none of that to-day. It is simply a matter of taking all they possibly can. There is no industry, I believe, that is in such a confused state as the export cattle business. The methods adopted for the inspection of stock are more harmful than otherwise. Live stock—lamb and beef—is a very delicate commodity. It needs special handling. When we speak about the Argentine as a great competitor, we must remember that they have succeeded because they had the energy to do what we should have done and paid particular attention to the transport of their live stock in their own country.

We here, as a Government, have no control whatsoever, as far as I know, at the Port of Dublin. It is simply one mass of confusion. Individuals who have certain interests are always there to take all they can get, and they have no interest whatsoever in the condition of the live-stock. When the live stock reach the other side, the same thing happens. The live stock has to be detained at Birkenhead, say, for ten hours. They are detained here for two hours. I do not see why we should not have proper facilities, controlled by the Government here, to detain live stock at this port in Dublin, or at any other port, for the full twelve hours. In that time, these cattle could be reasonably inspected.

Any person who has travelled to Birkenhead and had a look at that most delicate commodity when it reaches Birkenhead will appreciate this. Let anyone look at the condition of lambs after reaching Birkenhead from Dublin. These lambs are detained there for ten hours in these puzzle yards. On looking at them, one would begin to doubt about the civilisation we boast about and about the good of those societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals. As long as the present system is allowed to prevail, and as long as the shipping companies have a monopoly and are without opposition, those abuses are bound to remain. I believe that the whole result of this is that we have been forced into producing and selling store cattle instead of fattening.

The same thing holds good in the Dublin Cattle Market. I do not for one moment agree that this is at all an up-to-date market. I am satisfied and convinced that it is a most out-of-date market. Therefore, I do not believe that we are sincere when we talk about the importance of this great industry. We, as a nation or the Government of this country, have never taken any serious steps or never made any effort whatsoever to put that industry on a sound or business-like basis. It may be that they know that it is not as economic as they pretend it to be. That may be quite so. I am doubtful as to whether the industry is an economic industry. That is a very doubtful problem, and I am more doubtful still when I consider that the price of that produce is something like 25 to 30 per cent. above the pre-war figure, while the freights are 100 per cent. above that figure—certainly above 100 per cent. When we consider that position and that not the slightest effort was made to inquire into that, I believe that the industry must be considered as not economic. Else some serious effort would have been made to remedy the position.

——or who is to decide the question of the charges? I think that that would be an important item in connection with this proposal. At the same time, I believe that this proposal might be passed, because I think it is necessary for the Government to take some action, and failing a more suitable motion I am prepared to vote for this. I think that the Government should at least investigate this question as to the position at the North Wall and confer with the different authorities as to what improvements could be effected, or as to the advantage of the new lairage, if it be erected. I think it is a pity that the motion should have been moved before the Report of the Ports and Harbours Tribunal appeared. I understand that that Report is due within a few weeks' time, and none of us is really in a position to discuss conditions at the North Wall until we have seen that Report. That the whole of the accommodation for lairages and for berthage should be in the hands of a body that is more or less independent of the State at present is not, in my opinion, a position that can be tolerated. So far as can be seen, the Port and Docks Board have full right to control berthage there, and naturally those who are in power on the Port and Docks Board will see that no one who threatens competition with them will get much encouragement. Judging from Deputy O'Hanlon's speech, I presume it was intended to link up this question with the question of berthage. I presume that the real purpose of the motion is to ensure that by providing lairages we would be independent of the existing carrying companies, and that independent shipping companies would make their appearance. I think everybody would desire that and that everybody would vote for the motion on that account. But I think that the motion was very unfortunately worded, that it does not give a chance to those who see, in the independent position of the Port and Bocks Board, a great danger to the trade of the State.

There is, I think, a further reason why some action should be taken by the Government. Competition between Belfast and Dublin is, I understand, extremely keen. Every day further efforts are being made by Belfast port to win to itself traffic which rightly belongs to Dublin. The Belfast authorities state that their lairage accommodation is very much ahead of the accommodation in Dublin. That is a very serious item, because if any substantial amount of traffic is taken from Dublin it must mean an increase in the Dublin rates. I do not believe that it should be left as a matter of competition between Dublin and Belfast; I believe that the traffic originating in or having its destination in the Saorstát should go through Free State ports, and I believe that transport should be so controlled that those concerned would not have any grievance in being compelled to obey a direction of that kind. But pending the acceptance of such a proposal by the Government, I think it is very important that Belfast should not have any advantage, particularly in regard to live-stock traffic. This question is obviously a very important one. Two-thirds of the cattle exported from the Saorstát are exported through Dublin port. That in itself is a sufficient reason for a very ample inquiry into the grievances that are alleged. When one who is himself very much concerned in the cattle trade, one of the leading shippers in the country, makes the statement: "The present accommodation is deficient. The cattle are herded together during the period of detention, are roaring and goring each other in these exposed pens in which there is no room to feed or water them," that is obviously a matter for consideration. I think that the Minister cannot deny that it is of public interest to see that the matter is inquired into and to see that those who are responsible shall either improve their methods and give satisfaction to the Government or that encouragement is given to some other interest to establish lairages that would be at least in competition with existing lairages, or that would be under some sort of national control. It is, however, principally on the question of berthage that I support the motion. I think that is all-important, that when the question of the regulation of berthage is dealt with, as presumably it will be dealt with after the Report of the Ports and Harbours Tribunal appears, it will naturally be a great encouragement to those who see the necessity for Irish shipping companies and for an Irish mercantile marine to start such enterprises if there is a lairage which is independent of the existing companies and which can be utilised by such concerns.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. McGilligan)

I cannot quite understand the point of view of the last speaker when, after asserting—and to my mind asserting quite accurately—that the motion was, first of all, peculiarly worded, as Deputy O'Hanlon himself confessed, and, secondly, saying that it was unfortunate in the time of its appearance and that it might have awaited the Report of the Ports and Harbours Tribunal, then announcing that he will vote for it, particularly on the question of berthage which, he added, the Port and Harbours Tribunal Report is likely to deal with. I think that this might well have been left over until we had seen what the Ports and Harbours Tribunal had to say on this vexed question as to whether or not the Port and Docks Board had refused at any time berthage facilities to people who had a right to demand them, and who had in fact demanded them, who did not merely make a complaint as to what would happen if a demand were put forward.

There is a long history attaching to this motion, much longer even than the thirteen months during which Deputy O'Hanlon has had it on the Order Paper. There was a resolution passed by the Cattle Traders' Association. As a result of that, resolutions were sent to my Department, and to the Department of the Minister for Agriculture, and we endeavoured to get in touch with the Cattle Traders' Association on several occasions. On one occasion, complaints which they put forward in a vague way were referred to in a letter which went back to them, and we asked them for a detailed statement giving the occasions on which demands were put up to the Port and Docks Board and to the railway companies in regard to the provision of lairage accommodation. We also asked them to state whether they received answers to their demands and whether they regarded them as satisfactory. We received no reply. Eventually, there was a resolution in the Seanad and it was deferred at my request, so that a conference might be arranged between the Port and Docks Board, the Cattle Traders' Association, and the two Departments concerned.

It was not possible to hold that conference for certain reasons mainly because the Cattle Traders' Association did not put forward particulars which we believed they had in their possession. Finally, the matter came to a head when a Senator moved a resolution in the Seanad similar to that now before us. He asked me to state what had happened since the previous motion had been considered, about a year previously. I detailed the circumstances, which were, briefly, these: I had again written to the Chairman of the Cattle Traders' Association asking for certain information, and I got back a letter. The whole correspondence is in the Report of the Seanad for the 28th March, 1928. I think I can summarise it by saying that I asked them for data which they had not got, although it was data which any reasonable man would see was in his possession before he made the charges on which the resolution was founded. The resolution in an amended form, it being agreed by everybody that it committed nobody to anything, was passed.

As a result of that resolution, I tried to get in touch with the Senator who moved it. Certain elections intervened, but afterwards it was taken up and I was told not to bother about it as the Cattle Traders' Association had a scheme for improving the lairages at the North Wall which they wanted to put before the Minister for Agriculture, that when that was discussed their reasons would be given as to why the lairages should be erected, and that if accommodation was provided they believed that the whole freight question would ease itself. No such scheme was, however, put before the Minister for Agriculture, and all we have now is this resolution in similar terms to that discussed in the Seanad. I am glad that it comes before us, because on many occasions the Cattle Traders' Association put themselves forward as complainants, mainly against the Dublin Port and Docks Board, in their attitude to the questions of berthage and lairage, and sometimes they joined, as co-defendants, the railway companies owing to certain land which the railway companies are said to own near the North Wall and of which the Cattle Traders' Association asked a certain grant which had been refused.

The Cattle Traders' Association are the complainants. They say that they have evidence on three items, namely, freights, lairage accommodation and berthage facilities. One would expect that the case would be made in some detail and not merely described in the vague phrase, quoted by Deputy Moore, of the Senator who moved the resolution in the Seanad, namely, that there are pens where animals are inadequately kept and where they gore each other during the night. That is the statement. One would have expected some comparison between the lairage accommodation in other places and the accommodation provided here. One would have expected, further, a statement from somebody in support of the Cattle Traders' Association that there is ground somewhere more suitable for lairages and that it is in the possession of somebody who was asked to give it, but who refused that request. Further, the reasons given for the refusal should be stated. People would then have an opportunity of judging whether or not the reasons given were sound.

It is not sufficient merely to say that freights are too high. Deputy O'Reilly mentioned 100 per cent. over 1914, and Deputy Moore interjected by saying 200 per cent., but he refrained from saying 200 per cent. when he came to speak. I have vague figures given by the Cattle Traders' Association, and I have very detailed figures given by the Coast Lines Company, the British and Irish Company. Until the Cattle Traders' Association can be got to come into conference and disprove the detailed figures given by the British and Irish Company, these figures must hold. I do not say that they are correct, but I say that in the absence of rebuttal they must take pride of place. One would have to consider, in addition, the statement that the rates were nearly 200 per cent. more than in 1914. That might be established by evidence, but the fact that it was established would not necessarily prove that the freights are unjust, that they are hampering trade. It might be deplorable from the point of view of the cattle trade, but by proving that they are 200 per cent. higher you do not prove that they are exorbitant. One thing has been alluded to here in the course of the debate, and it should be alluded to very often, namely, the chartering of the "Brussels," what befell the "Brussels," and why it was bought at a price which, according to the Senator who moved the resolution, was 500 times the value which any reasonable man could put on it. Competition, in other words, was to be bought off by buying the "Brussels" and by granting directorships to certain people interested in it. The payment of that money was one way of getting rid of competition. It was one way in which people recouped themselves for their loss.

According to Deputy O'Hanlon— although he did not state it, it was implied in his speech—the reasons for joining the question of suitable lairage accommodation and berthage facilities with that of freights were, as expressed previously by Senator Counihan, that the cattle trade wanted to charter ships so as to get into competition with the shipping companies, but that they could not do that unless they had some place to detain the cattle for inspection. They accordingly must have proper berthage facilities and facilities for the speedy loading and discharge of whatever vessels come in at their behest. Let us take it that that is the aim of the resolution. I suggest to the Deputy that the resolution should not suggest that the Government should confer with the persons named in it. I do not think that there is any necessity for a resolution of that sort. I invited the Cattle Traders' Association in three letters, and openly in debate on two occasions, to come along with the figures. I invited them to take part in a conference over which the Minister for Agriculture was to preside in the presence of the other parties concerned to thrash out the whole question in regard to freights, to get a proper comparison with 1914, to give cases where reasonable facilities for lairage accommodation were unreasonably withheld, also whether better berthage accommodation could be provided, and at whose expense it should be provided. Without any resolution, I again throw out that invitation to the Cattle Traders' Association, and if they like to join with the Dublin Commissioners there is a room big enough to hold the lot. As I say, repeated attempts have been made to get the Cattle Traders' Association to put forward detailed statements in letters so that detailed examination could be made of their figures, and they were invited to meet the railway people. I think that they met the railway and shipping companies on one occasion, but generally their attitude is that taken up in the letter read in the Seanad. I wrote to them. They stated that the information which I wanted was not in their possession, although it should really have been the foundation for the particular complaints they made. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned until Friday, 24th May.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 22 May 1929

Private Deputies' Business. - Shipment of Cattle from Dublin.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 May 1929