Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 1929

Vol. 31 No. 4

Financial Business. - Allocation of Time.

The President

I move:—

That the proceedings on the Estimates for Public Services for the year ending 31st day of March, 1930, in Committee on Finance and on Report, on the Resolution, in Committee on Finance and on Report, for the issue out of the Central Fund of the sum necessary to make good the supply granted for the service of the year ending on the 31st March, 1930, and on the five stages of the Appropriation Bill, 1929, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. on Wednesday, July 10th, 1929, by putting from the Chair forthwith and successively the Questions necessary to bring the proceedings to a conclusion: Provided that after the said hour on the said day a Question shall not be put from the Chair on any amendment, nor upon any motion other than a motion necessary to bring the proceedings forthwith to a conclusion and then only when moved by the Government: Provided, further, that on the Report of the Resolutions of the Committee on Finance, in respect of the several Estimates for the year —ending 31st March, 1930, only one Question shall be put from the Chair, namely, That the Dáil agrees with the Committee on Finance in the said Resolutions, and that, in Committee on the Appropriation Bill, 1929, only one Question shall be put from the Chair, namely, That the several Sections, Schedules, stand part of, and that the Title be the Title to, the Bill.

On a previous occasion, when moving that the hour of adjournment be extended from 10.30 p.m. to 8 a.m. I said that the Appropriation Bill should pass this House in time to allow 21 days for consideration by the Seanad. During the early part of this session the Committee on Procedure and Privileges had the question of Estimates before them. There are something like 65 Estimates to be considered. They take up something like 100 hours of Parliamentary time each year. To date, something over 100 hours—I think, approximately, 109 hours—have been so occupied. There was an understanding or general acceptance that the House should conclude discussion of Estimates about the 20th June, provided that every Thursday was devoted to the consideration of Estimates. So far as the provision of every Thursday up to 20th of June for Estimates is concerned, that understanding was slightly altered, but a sufficient amount of time was allowed to make up for any alteration that might have taken place. Allowing for the length of time which will elapse between this and 10 o'clock to-night, more than the normal number of hours have been provided for the consideration of Estimates. It is, therefore, not an unusual step to bring the consideration of Estimates to a close.

Eamon de Valéra

Nílimíd sásta go bhfuil aon ghádh leis an rún seo agus táimíd na choinne. Ní thógfadh sé níos mó ná trí nó ceithre lá ar fad chun críoch do chur le na neithibh puibhuidhe atá ar an gclár agus cead cainnte do bheith ag gach Teachta go mba mhian leis labhairt fútha.

Mr. Lemass

I should be glad if the President would inform us as to the real reason for this motion. Is it mainly for the purpose of conveniencing the Seanad? Is it for the purpose of enabling the Dáil to adjourn this week? Or is it for the purpose of preventing proper discussion of the remaining Estimates? If the President would reveal his heart to the Dáil, I think he would say that the last was the main reason. I do not know upon what ground he assumes that because the Estimates passed through this House in 100 hours of Parliamentary time when there was no real Opposition in the House, necessarily it will only take the same time now when there is a real Opposition here. It is in the discussion of the Estimates that Deputies get an opportunity of criticising the administration of the Government. The one design of the Executive Council seems to be to prevent them getting a proper opportunity of criticism. I do not know if they think they are above criticism, or if they think the criticism they will get from this Party need not be taken seriously. But the design appears to be to avoid criticism in any case, whether they find it inconvenient or politically injurious to them. I think that the whole attitude of the Government towards public business at the end of this session indicates that their respect for democratic institutions and their working is very slight. If the Government were really anxious to reduce the volume of business before the Dáil to permit of the Dáil adjourning early, then the obvious course would have been to withhold the numerous Bills which they rushed in with at the last minute. I take it that these Bills were rushed in at the last minute for the very same reason that the discussion on the Estimates is to be curtailed—to prevent proper examination of them by Deputies. Assuming that the Government, as I suggested in a previous discussion, believe that if they could govern by decree and without Parliamentary discussion they would do much better, why do they not say so? Instead of doing what they are actually achieving by trickery, they should do it by an open and honest amendment to the Constitution.

The President

Deputy MacEntee is smiling.

Mr. MacEntee

I am smiling at the very naïve excuse which the President has advanced to the House for moving the closure on the Estimates at this stage. He stated that last year the discussion on the Estimates occupied 100 hours of Parliamentary time, and that this year it has occupied 109 hours. He did not explain to the House how much of the excess was due to the fact that on the Land Commission Vote the sole purpose of the Government was to waste time in order to avoid a division being taken on that Estimate. He did not explain to the House that at the beginning of the session Deputies were brought here for one day only in two successive weeks and sent home again because the Government had not enough business for them to do. If we could have got the Estimates at that stage we could have discussed them and given them all the consideration that was necessary. It seems to me, in view of the fact that the Government did waste time at the beginning of the session, they ought to extend the time now in order to give the House an opportunity not only of considering the Estimates, but, as Deputy Lemass said, of considering, also, the large amount of legislation that the Government is now proposing. The statute book is littered with amending Bills, amending mistakes in legislation which the Government made when they introduced particular measures.

Mr. Cassidy

The President in moving this motion mentioned that the Appropriation Bill had to pass the House prior to a certain day. Deputies realise that, but, at the same time, the President should admit that if the House had met on Tuesdays, as it is empowered to do under the Standing Orders, there would be no necessity to rush the Estimates as they are being rushed at present. The President also remarked that already the normal number of hours had been provided with regard to the Estimates, and he mentioned 109 hours as having been spent upon them. There is one Estimate—Fisheries—which has not yet been discussed and which I consider is very important and should not be rushed through the House. As the President knows, there is great dissatisfaction amongst fishermen owing to the way in which that Department has dealt with the fisheries during the past year. In addition to that, this Department is also responsible for putting into operation the recommendations contained in the White Paper dealing with the Gaeltacht Commission. Deputies should not be curtailed in any criticism or suggestions that they may have to make in respect of this particular Vote. The President, instead of curtailing the time of the House, should, if necessary, allow the House to sit on next week and give time to have the Fisheries Department fully discussed.

The President

We have had the usual stock opposition this afternoon to resolutions of this sort to bring business to a conclusion towards the end of the session. Deputy Lemass asked whether we were in a hurry to get away, whether it was to convenience the Seanad or whether it was trickery to avoid discussion. I do not know whether the Deputy knows the conditions appertaining to the Central Fund Act passed in March. The supply granted under that Act will last only to the 1st August. The Deputy is aware that on and after the first day of August no money can leave the Exchequer for any purpose whatsoever, because the Vote on Account was for four months only. Therefore, if the services of the country are to be carried on, the Appropriation Bill requires to be passed and must be law before the 1st August. Then he wanted to know whether it was to convenience the Seanad. Under the Constitution, a Money Bill leaving this House is not subject to amendment by the Seanad. The Seanad can make recommendations in respect of any of its provisions and these recommendations must be received here within twenty-one days. If this Bill leaves this House to-morrow, then by 1st August it will automatically become law. The recommendations of the Seanad can be considered in the meantime, but the Bill cannot be held up any longer than the difference in time between the 10th July and 1st August.

One-hundred-and-nine hours have already been given this year to the discussion of the Estimates. Note that there is a marked difference between "discussion" and "consideration" of the Estimates. Deputy MacEntee smiles because he himself discussed the Estimates at some length and knows well that while he was discussing them no one was considering them. The same applies to other Deputies opposite. There is as much anxiety on the part of the Deputy opposite and his friends both on the front and back benches to get away and get finished with parliamentary work as there is by those on the Government Benches, the difference being that Deputies on this side of the House wish to do their work well while Deputies opposite wish to pose as if they were doing it well. Deputy Cassidy has got from 4 o'clock this afternoon until 10 o'clock to-night to discuss this Fisheries Estimate. Has any time been wasted on the discussion of the Estimates? On one occasion, it was so patent that we were not devoting the whole of our time to the consideration of the Estimates that the question was moved: "That the question be now put." Deputy MacEntee, I think, will admit that the consideration of the Estimates does not depend on the amount of time devoted to their discussion. We could have done as much business in a shorter time by a more pithy discussion. I am not drawing any distinction between the Opposition to-day and the Opposition in times when it was smaller in numbers, but I would say, for my own part, that I had to pay more attention to the Estimates when the discussion depended upon a smaller number of Deputies in Opposition than I have now.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 67; Níl, 52.

Tá

• Aird, William P.
• Alton, Ernest Henry.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Bourke, Séumas A.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Byrne, John Joseph.
• Coburn, James.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Conlon, Martin.
• Connolly, Michael P.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Haslett, Alexander.
• Hassett, John J.
• Heffernan, Michael R.
• Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
• Hennessy, Thomas.
• Henry, Mark.
• Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
• Holohan, Richard.
• Jordan, Michael.
• Kelly, Patrick Michael.
• Law, Hugh Alexander.
• Leonard, Patrick.
• Lynch, Finian.
• Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
• McDonogh, Martin.
• MacEóin, Seán.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Craig, Sir James.
• Crowley, James.
• Daly, John.
• Davis, Michael.
• De Loughrey, Peter.
• Doherty, Eugene.
• Dolan, James N.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Duggan, Edmund John.
• Egan, Barry M.
• Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
• Murphy, James E.
• Nally, Martin Michael.
• Nolan, John Thomas.
• O'Connell, Richard.
• O'Connor, Bartholomew.
• O'Hanlon, John F.
• O'Higgins, Thomas.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
• O'Reilly, John J.
• O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Rice, Vincent.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Shaw, Patrick W.
• Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork)
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Tierney, Michael.
• White, John.
• White, Vincent Joseph.
• Wolfe, George.

Níl

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Anthony, Richard.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Boland, Patrick.
• Brady, Seán.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Broderick, Henry.
• Buckley, Daniel.
• Cassidy, Archie J.
• Clery, Michael.
• Colbert, James.
• Cooney, Eamon.
• Corish, Richard.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Davin, William.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Everett, James.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Goulding, John.
• Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
• Houlihan, Patrick.
• Jordan, Stephen.
• Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
• Kent, William R.
• Kerlin, Frank.
• Killane, James Joseph.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• Maguire, Ben.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Mullins, Thomas.
• O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
• O'Kelly, Seán T.
• O'Leary, William.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Reilly, Thomas.
• Powell, Thomas P.
• Ruttledge, Patrick J.
• Ryan, James.
• Sheehy, Timothy (Tipperary).
• Smith, Patrick.
• Tubridy, John.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle; Níl: Deputies G. Boland and Allen.

Motion declared carried.

Resolved accordingly.