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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 1929

Vol. 32 No. 10

Adjournment Debate. - Alleged Ill-treatment of Prisoner.

The answer given me to-day by the Minister for Justice to the question I put him with regard to the treatment of George Gilmore would indicate that the Minister must have been deliberately misinformed as to the exact details in connection with this matter or, if he has not been misinformed, and has the facts at his disposal, he is not desirous of giving this House a proper answer regarding the treatment to which Mr. Gilmore has been subjected. The Minister admits that Mr. Gilmore, in the month of November, was arrested on two occasions. No charge was preferred against him and no reason was given for his detention. The Minister states that on one occasion it became necessary to have him removed to hospital, and as to the other occasion, he is not aware of the facts. On Sunday, 10th November, which was the second occasion on which Mr. Gilmore was arrested, when proceeding down Harcourt Street he was accosted by C.I.D. men, who told him that they were going to take him to the police station. He resisted, as he had done on the previous occasion, because no reason was given as to why he should be detained. He tried to attract attention to his predicament by shouting, and a small crowd gathered. The C.I.D. men were not able to make him proceed to the police station willingly, and they assumed that the crowd would become hostile. Detective Officer Coughlan, who was in charge, ordered his subordinate to draw his revolver and told him in the hearing of these people that he was to shoot, but to shoot Mr. Gilmore first and then to fire on the crowd.

The next thing that happened was that Mr. Gilmore was beaten on the head with the butt of a revolver until he became unconscious. He was carried in this unconscious state to Kevin Street police barracks. He was revived by means of water being thrown over him in the yard of the barracks, and at 1 o'clock the police in charge of him thought he was sufficiently recovered to be able to go home, and he was released, notwithstanding the fact that he would have to get to Killakee at 1 o'clock in the morning. Mr. Gilmore, who was still bleeding from some of the wounds in his head, proceeded to Mercer's hospital and was admitted to the accident ward and treated by the doctor. I took the trouble to go to Mercer's Hospital and I have here a certificate from the house physician. The Minister may probably say, as he did on a previous occasion, that Mr. Gilmore was kicked by a horse or a cow, but I would advise him to find out first of all from the hospital whether Mr. Gilmore's wounds could have been obtained in any other manner but by his having been struck on the head with a very sharp instrument. In his certificate, which he has given voluntarily, the doctor states: "This is to certify that Mr. George Gilmore, of Killakee, Co. Dublin, was treated at this hospital on the night of November 10th for head injuries. He had two hæmatomata with two small incised wounds on the crown of the head. He was detained here overnight and discharged next morning." I asked the doctor if these wounds in the head could have been obtained in any other manner but by having received blows on the head. The doctor told me that the certificate should be sufficient evidence to show it was so, that there could be no other way but by having been struck on the head. The wounds which he describes are two covered by clots of blood and two other wounds which were bleeding. He had four definite wounds on the head.

That is not the certificate. Is the Deputy adding to the certificate now?

The Minister has not taken the trouble to send anybody to the hospital. I spent an hour with the doctor making sure that I understood his certificate and I state that he had four wounds on the head.

The doctor only saw two.

I can hand over the certificate to the Minister. Other Deputies have read it and are satisfied that it refers to four wounds— two and two are four.

There are only two mentioned.

On the day previous to this, Saturday, I received a telephone message from a Mrs. Kelly, telling me that her son had been again arrested, and was being detained by the police. He was a young man whom I had interested myself in on the previous evening, on the Friday, having gone to the Bridewell to bring him home after he was released. Knowing him to be in a very weak condition and not wishing him to go home in the rain, I drove him to his home. On the way home he told me that Mr. Gilmore had been subjected to a severe beating and was carried to Pearse Street police station unconscious. I should like to mention that prior to going to the Bridewell, I telephoned to the police station, and I was told that there was no young man detained there. I went back to Pearse Street police station, and I asked the sergeant in charge if Mr. Gilmore was in the station, and he told me he was. I asked him if he was still unconscious. He said he did not know, that he was not in charge of him; that it had nothing to do with him; that it was not the ordinary police that were concerned with Mr. Gilmore. I asked was he charged with any offence, and the sergeant said no. Finally, a stick was produced, and it was stated that this stick was used by Mr. Gilmore to beat the police. Subsequently, that was corrected and was withdrawn, because Mr. Gilmore had no stick at all with him. I waited in the police station for about an hour, roughly. I protested all the time against the attitude adopted by the sergeant, and pointed out to him that if this man was seriously hurt, the responsibility would fall on his shoulders as the person in charge of the station, and that the least he might do was to 'phone for a doctor or to have the man conveyed to hospital. I asked to be allowed to see the man. I was refused at first, but subsequently I was allowed to see him, and I was satisfied that his condition was not such as would permit his being kept any longer, and the sergeant, at my request, ordered an ambulance which conveyed Mr. Gilmore to Mercer's Hospital. In that ambulance was an ordinary Guard, a C.I.D. man, and myself. When we came to the hospital the doctor asked what was wrong with the man, and the C.I.D. man said he had had a fit. I told the C.I.D. man that he was not speaking what was true; that he should give the doctor the proper information to enable him to make a proper examination. The doctor was satisfied that it was not a fit from which Mr. Gilmore was suffering. During the examination of Mr. Gilmore, when he thought he was coming to normal again, the C.I.D. man stated that he was leaving, and that Mr. Gilmore was now released. The doctor decided to detain Mr. Gilmore for a certain period and pointed out to me a very serious and large swelling on Mr. Gilmore's forehead. He could not account for it, naturally. Mr. Gilmore states that the bump which he got on the head which rendered him unconscious was caused by the fact that he was carried by six men into the station, and instead of releasing their hold of him to open the door, they opened the door with his head. I subsequently received a letter from the Minister for Justice which I shall read. I want to point out that on each occasion on which I went to a police barracks in connection with these cases, I went at the request either of a relative or a near friend of the person detained. On the Friday night I was in the police station from about 8 o'clock until 12.35 in the morning, when Mr. Kelly was released.

I received this letter, dated the 19th November:—

"I am directed by the Minister for Justice to inform you that it has come to his notice that on several occasions you have visited police stations representing your desire to establish contact with various persons in police custody, and that you have persisted in remaining at the station after it has been made clear to you that it is not then possible to allow you to interview the detained persons. The Minister has directed me further to remind you in this connection that, whilst it is customary for the police to accord special courtesy to public representatives, membership of the Dáil confers no absolute privilege as regards interviews with persons who may be in police custody; that it is unfair to the police for a Deputy to abuse this courtesy by subjecting them to undue persistency, and that it would be quite impossible to allow even public representatives to remain as long as they choose in police stations when it was clear that their presence could serve no useful purpose. The police have now received instructions from the Minister that they are at liberty to bring your visits to a close when it is apparent that there is nothing they can do for you."

Who signs that letter?

It is signed by the Secretary to the Department, Henry O'Friel. Now, I recognise I have a certain responsibility, as a public representative, and I believe the Minister will accord me that much confidence that I attempt to carry out my duties and responsibilities to my constituency with the same honesty as he does towards those who have elected him to this House. There is no question of doubt that the people dealt with in the manner I have outlined are not allowed to communicate with any of their relatives, or even with a solicitor. If a person comes to me, as in the case of Mrs. Kelly or a member of Mr. Gilmore's family, and states to me that that person was brought to the police station, whether he has been beaten or not, I claim that I am only exercising a right that I have in going to the police station to find out if such a person is in their custody, and if they would facilitate me by advising me as to what was the nature of the charge against that person. I know of no law as at present in force which permits constant arrest and rearrest of individuals without their being charged with any offence. There is not even the suggestion that they are arrested on suspicion. In the case of Mr. Kelly, who was in custody from 6 o'clock on Friday evening until 12.35 a.m., and the reason given to him for his arrest——

Are we dealing with the case of Mr. Kelly or with Gilmore?

I am dealing with the suggestion that brought that letter.

I submit that we are dealing with the case of Gilmore.

Order, order! The Deputy will have to keep to the case mentioned in his question, and which he intimated he would raise on the adjournment.

I ask your ruling. I am making the point that I have the right to ask why a person is detained. When a person is detained for six hours, during which period something happened outside, and that person is arrested next day for having had something to do with what happened while he was detained——

Why do you not put down a question to that effect?

Perhaps the Minister will allow me to deal with this point of order. The Deputy is confined to the question that is on the Order Paper, and he cannot deal with anything outside that.

On a point of order, may I say Kelly was an essential witness to what happened to Gilmore, and therefore Deputy Briscoe is entitled to refer to Kelly as well as to Gilmore.

I allowed the Deputy to refer to Kelly in so far as he referred to him as a witness, but he must not further refer to him.

Although Kelly was one of the persons detained, I will not deal with his case any further, but I will impress upon the Minister that I am satisfied as a result of my investigations that there is a definite set upon certain individuals to incite them to bring about a breach of the peace, or finally to bring about their deaths, or to make them leave the country if they cannot stand this treatment. We need not go far back to know that members of that force —servants of the Government—have taken part in illegal executions.

The Deputy is getting away from this question. He must confine himself to what is in the question on the Order Paper.

He is talking against time.

I shall give the Minister full time. I want the Minister to explain to this House by what right his agents can harass an individual as in the case of George Gilmore; by what right they can arrest and detain him; and if he resists arrest when there is no reason for it, by what right they can render him unconscious in order to bring him more easily to the place of detention. And further, if he is prepared to consider giving instructions to his police force to stop this kind of thing, which I say will lead to a breach of the peace, and in which innocent civilians may be involved.

I just only want to say a couple of words and I must say that in speaking in a debate like this one has to exercise considerable restraint. If I told the Minister what I think of him, I certainly would commit a breach of the Standing Orders, I am afraid.

That might apply to a whole lot of us you know. We could all do that.

I know. I ask why does the Minister come to this House and stand over what are obviously deliberate lies. We were told that the man who was beaten down in Clare was kicked by a cow, although the doctor and other witnesses——

You are wrong in both these statements. I said as a matter of fact that the man was knocked down by a cow, and there was nothing except his own word to the contrary.

That matter does not arise in any case upon this question.

We are told now that George Gilmore fell down in an epileptic fit, although there is proof by the doctor who attended him that he received at least four blows on the head.

The Deputy does not know what he is talking about. The doctor's certificate relates to another night.

There is no doubt as far as I can see that the Minister and those who sit on the Front Bench opposite want some trouble in the country—they do not want themselves to do it, but it does not matter if an odd C.I.D. man is shot if that will help at the next general election. If that is not the reason, will the Minister tell us one reason why this kind of thing should be allowed to go on? If they want peace, why do they deliberately incite their agents to deliberately commit breaches of the peace? There is no doubt in the world that they want by these beatings and continual arrests, for which there is no justification, to try to get someone to shoot some of their C.I.D. so that they will have a nice cry to restore law and order at the next general election.

Mr. Hogan

You know so much perhaps you will tell us something more about Gilmore.

Deputy Briscoe said he was moved by nothing except a sense of public duty and he painted himself in very glowing colours. I think anybody looking at the dates in connection with this question will paint the Deputy in somewhat different colours to the colours in which he paints himself. Here are occurrences which took place on the 9th and 10th of the month. The Dáil sat on Wednesday and Thursday following that. Nothing was heard from the Deputy about it. To-day, the 27th November, he comes along to this House and raises this matter as a matter of immediate public importance.

What is the date of my question to the Minister.

That was on the 20th November, the date on which you received my letter. That is the date of his question. It is a matter of urgent public importance to-day.

Can the Minister say whether——

The Deputy should allow the Minister to make his speech.

On the 9th he receives this terrible account that he tried to paint to-night, and on the 10th the other event is supposed to have taken place. The Dáil sits on the Wednesday and Thursday following, and there followed Saturday and Sunday. Why was the Deputy, who is now so voluble, tongue-tied for those two days? He got this letter from me on the morning of the 20th, and on that very day it occurred to him for the first time to put down the question. So far as the letter is concerned, it is a letter which I directed to be sent to the Deputy. There were two courses open to me. One was to instruct the Guards, when the Deputy came arrogating to himself the functions of a Chief Superintendent, which he is not yet, that he should be asked to leave the barracks, that he had no business there, and if he did not do so, that he should be put out. That was one course open to me. The other was that before such a thing should happen, before the Deputy would be put, for a Deputy of this House, in that degrading position, I thought that it would be more courteous to write this letter and, in consequence, directed it to be written. That letter is going to be acted upon. Let us take the Deputy's statement about George Gilmore. He states that he came to the Guards' station and that he saw Gilmore. I have carefully inquired from the sergeant in charge on that particular night, and from the other Guards there, and their account of what happened is diametrically opposite to the account which the Deputy has given.

Does the Minister dispute that I saw Gilmore in the police station?

I say that that is a deliberate untruth. I was taken to the room by the sergeant.

I do not accept the Deputy's statement that it was he who telephoned for the ambulance.

I did not say that I did.

I say that it was the sergeant who, seeing the condition in which this man was and that he was obviously suffering from something in the nature of a fit, telephoned first for a doctor, but as the doctor was not available he then telephoned for the ambulance and, what is more, Deputy Briscoe, who was there and who got into the ambulance, said that he had done a very wise thing, or words to that effect.

I asked him to 'phone for the ambulance.

There is a very considerable difference of opinion about that. We will get it clear. Some time or other we will get an explanation and, if Deputy Briscoe's story is accurate, why was there this extraordinary delay? The man was brought there suffering from a beating, suffering from terrible injuries, and was brought there unconscious. That is Deputy Briscoe's case.

That is the second night.

I am talking of the first night. On the 9th he is brought, as a result of a beating and of having been knocked unconscious owing to his head being banged against a door—that is the Deputy's case. He is reduced to a state of unconsciousness from this terrible blow and is suffering from concussion for several hours. In the hospital he is found to be all right and is immediately discharged. He is not brought to his own home in the ambulance, but in Deputy Briscoe's car. Does anybody believe that a man, who is knocked unconscious by a blow, who remains unconscious for a couple of hours, at the end of these couple of hours able to get out all right and able to walk the streets all right next day? Deputy Briscoe was very careful on the second occasion. He got a certificate from a doctor, but there is no certificate from a doctor of any single mark of violence on the first night. Now, listen to the second night. This man again resisted arrest. He was discharged from the police station. Remember that here again he is supposed to be beaten into a state of unconsciousness, and lies unconscious for a long time. Again he is able to walk. There is no fit on the second occasion. He walks to the hospital, and what is found? Two small incised wounds, as the Deputy read out. Though the man is beaten unconscious all that can be found are two small incised wounds.

The Deputy read out two, two small incised wounds.

"Two haematomata with two small incised wounds." Two and two are four. Perhaps the Minister would like to see the certificate.

What the Deputy read out was "two small incised wounds," as it reached my ear.

That is all that was found.

Would the Minister read the certificate? I have sent it to him.

"This is to certify that Mr. George Gilmore, of Killakee, Co. Dublin, was treated at this hospital on the night of November 10th for head injuries. He had two haematomata."

Ask Deputy O'Higgins what that is.

If you want Deputy O'Higgins's opinion, the answer is that the haematomata would be very likely in association with the incised wounds. In other words, there were two wounds there.

"Two small incised wounds on the crown of the head. He was detained here overnight, and discharged next morning." Of course, he was detained overnight. You have a man brought to hospital in a fit the night before. This highly-strung gentleman who works himself into a fit, comes again the next night, and it is very wise for the doctor to say that a person who is in the condition in which he was the night before, should stay in hospital. This man, verging on hysterics, remains in hospital, and on the doctor's advice remains that night. Deputy Aiken came in for a few moments to-night and wants to know what the policy of the Government is. The policy of the Government is to maintain peace and order in this country, and the Government is going to do it.

Since when?

And persons who set about disturbing peace and order in this country are not going to be allowed to carry out their aims without let or hindrance. We are quite determined about that.

Will you put another police force to watch the C.I.D.?

It is owing to the splendid work of the detective officers in Dublin that there is peace in this country now, and that there will continue to be peace. That is the object of the Government. We were told by Deputy Briscoe to-day that the police want trouble; that some of them want to be shot, and are desirous of committing suicide.

I never made such a statement. I said that if you wanted them shot——

I took down the Deputy's words this afternoon. They will appear in the regular report. There is no doubt about that. Are these persons to be allowed to walk about Dublin as much as they like and to carry land mines as much as they like?

Had he a land mine?

He is of the set that carry them about, and we do not know what day he will have a land mine. Does the Deputy deny for one moment, or does he so much live in the moon that he does not know that Mr. George Gilmore is one of the leaders who are endeavouring to upset the State by force? We have heard of Mr. George Gilmore before.

Deputies

Why not try him?

We know that Mr. Gilmore is a gentleman who was imprisoned for eighteen months not very long ago. We heard of the sad and deplorable stories——

What was he imprisoned for?

He was imprisoned for assault.

On the Guards.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until Thursday, November 28th.

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