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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 1930

Vol. 33 No. 4

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 55.—Land Commission.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £10 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig Choimisiún Talmhan na hEireann (44 agus 45 Vict., c. 49, a 46 agus c. 71, a. 4; 48 agus 49 Vict., c. 73, a. 17, 18 agus 20; 53 agus 54 Vict., c. 49, a. 2; 54 agus 55 Vict., c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38, agus c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; Uimh. 27 agus Uimh. 42 de 1923, Uimh. 25 de 1925, Uimh. 11 de 1926, agus Uimh. 19 de 1927).

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Irish Land Commission (44 and 45 Vict., c. 49, s. 46, and c. 71, s. 4; 48 and 49 Vict., c. 73; ss. 17, 18 and 20; 53 and 54 Vict., c. 49. s. 2; 54 and 55 Vict., c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38, and c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; Nos. 27 and 42 of 1923, 25 of 1925, 11 of 1926, and 19 of 1927).

Deputies will understand that this is merely a token Vote for a nominal sum of £10, introduced in order to fulfil an agreement made on the introduction of the Supplementary Estimate for £32,000 on the 5th December last that if the House passed the Vote on that occasion without discussion an opportunity would be afforded to debate it retrospectively on the re-assembly of the Dáil. Under those circumstances I propose to explain the position as it was on the date of the introduction of that Estimate. In sub-head (I), Improvement of Estates, there was an estimated sum of £45,000 and an administrative saving on another sub-head of £13,000, leaving a net Supplementary Estimate of £32,000.

Under the Land Purchase Acts power has been given to the Land Commission to spend money on the improvement and rearrangement of holdings sold under the various Acts and for the provision of houses, fences, roads, drains, etc., on untenanted lands divided under the Acts. So much of the expenditure on improvements, as in the opinion of the Land Commission could be recovered, having regard to the security for the repayment of land purchase annuities, is added to the price of the land so improved and is repaid as part of the purchase annuities. The remainder is given by way of free grants. Improvement on lands already vested and subject to Land Commission annuities cannot be carried out without the prior sanction of the Minister for Finance. The original estimate under sub-head (I) was £161,650, which includes £11,500 for the purchase of tenancies on the Congested Districts Board estates; workmen's compensation, £500; livestock insurance, £50; nurses' cottages in congested districts, £500. Deducting this sum of £11,500, there is left a sum of £150,000 for improvement work, of which £112,000 had been expended up to last October, leaving a balance of £38,000 available for expenditure for the remaining five months of the financial year, a sum which is totally inadequate to meet the improvement of land already acquired and about to be allotted and also to carry out improvements on other lands which are to be divided before the end of the financial year. The winter months are as a rule the most favourable for placing allottees on untenanted lands on holdings, and considerably more land is divided in the winter months than in any other period of the year. Untenanted land cannot be divided without the expenditure of money on fences, drains and housing, so that the allottees may be in a position to work to the best advantage the parcels of land allotted to them. As to the circumstances which made rapid for the expenditure of money during the earlier part of the financial year, I can only repeat what I said on the introduction of the original Estimate, namely, that it is very difficult to estimate accurately at the beginning of the financial year what amounts will actually be required for improvements during that particular year. A great deal depends on the rate at which untenanted land is acquired.

In connection with the acquisition of untenanted land, legal and other difficulties arise which delay the negotiations for the acquisition of estates. Then, on the other hand, difficulties and delays which were anticipated may perhaps prove unexpectedly capable of speedy solution. I stated when introducing the original Estimate that although the inspection staff had been reduced slightly it would not make any difference in the progress of the Land Commission's operations during the year. I am satisfied that the rate of expenditure on improvements in the early part of the year has amply justified that hope. In addition, the Act of 1929 relieved the Land Commission inspectors of a great deal of work. A substantial percentage of the time of inspectors was engaged on the valuation and inspection of holdings subject to judicial rents. Now the inspection staff is free to concentrate entirely on the work of dividing and equipping untenanted land. In determining the amount of the Supplementary Estimate, details of expenditure under other sub-heads were carefully examined, and it was found that a saving of about £13,000 could be effected in this respect and that that sum could be devoted to improvements. It has been estimated that £195,000 will be required for improving estates during the financial year, so that an additional sum of £32,000 will be required to reach that figure. As stated in my speech on the introduction of the original Estimate the Land Commission now enter into purchase or permanent agreements with the allottees of untenanted land rather than temporary agreements, as the latter method entailed a considerable addition of work. The paramount reason for the substitution of permanent agreements for temporary agreements was the necessity of placing allottees of untenanted land in a position to borrow money freely for the development of their new holdings. The Credit Corporation refused to advance money to tenants holding land on temporary agreements. In such cases the Land Commission invariably took steps to have temporary agreements substituted by permanent agreements so that the tenants would be in the position to obtain loans from the Credit Corporation. The Joint Stock Banks also refused to advance money on temporary agreements.

Is this relevant to the improvement of estates and to the Vote for which the Parliamentary Secretary is looking?

I am explaining the reason why it is necessary to introduce the Vote.

I do not think that it is relevant.

At all events, in view of the recent issue of the Report of the Land Commission up to 31st March last, I do not think that it is necessary at this stage to quote statistics. Deputies will have an opportunity within the next two months of discussing the Land Commission Vote in detail, and I will then be in a position to furnish statistics relating to the Land Commission proceedings during the present financial year. I do not think that I need say anything more at this stage than state that the progress shown in the Report just issued has been well maintained during the present year.

I move that the Vote be referred back for reconsideration. I have put down this amendment in order to afford members an opportunity of discussing matters arising on this subhead. The discussion is confined to the question of the work of the Land Commission in connection with the improvement of estates which is the same as the division of ranch lands, a question on which we are all interested and it gave rise to a lengthened discussion last year when the Parliamentary Secretary told us that the amount which was to be spent during the financial year 1929-30 was only half what was spent in the preceeding year. The Government came along before Christmas and got an additional sum of £32,000, which brings the total sum spent in the present financial year up to about £193,000. In the last financial year the amount was £323,000 and the total amount, I find in the Land Commission reports, spent during the last six years amounts to about one and a half million. That would work out at about £250,000 per annum, so that even though we make allowance for the supplementary estimate this year, the amount actually spent by the Land Commission in providing employment and in carrying on the work of dividing untenanted land is very much below what we had reason to expect from them on account of what they had done for the past six years.

In addition to that the Parliamentary Secretary, in the course of his speech last summer or spring, when he was introducing the original Estimate, said that there were some 490,000 acres still to be distributed, and he pointed with satisfaction to the fact that in the year 1927-28, only 35,000 acres had been divided, whereas in the year 1928-29, 60,000 acres had been divided. Even if we accept the figure of 60,000 acres as reasonable, and if there were almost 500,000 acres still to be divided, it will be seen that considerable time must elapse before the House gets rid of this Estimate and the work that is entailed under it by the Land Commission. I do not know what is the cause of the delay. In the first place, the Parliamentary Secretary told us last year that the Land Commission intended to concentrate rather on the vesting of tenanted land than on the distribution of untenanted land. I do not think that any Party in the House agrees that it is necessary that the congests or the landless men throughout the country who are looking for portions of the ranches, should be set back or that their claims should be postponed because of the necessity for vesting, which is really a legal process and which, as far as I can understand, is done by the indoor staff chiefly. It is true that some outdoor work may be necessary in connection with vesting, but I think that practically all the outdoor staff of the Land Commission should be engaged on the work of dividing up the land.

I think that all Parties in the House will agree that no matter what additional sums of money have to be found to do that work and to get it completed within a reasonable time, it would be well worth it. In the first place, employment would be given, and in the second place, as the lands were being divided, more land would be brought into cultivation and more people placed upon the land. So there was a general feeling when the original Estimate was being discussed that we should press for expedition in the work of dividing up the ranch land. I am glad to see that a good deal of attention is being devoted to the Gaeltacht, but I rather have a feeling that other areas may be neglected if the total staff of the Land Commission is engaged in the process of vesting or on reclamation schemes in the Gaeltacht. By all means let us do what we can to provide more work in the Gaeltacht, where it is very urgently needed, and let us speed up the vesting of land, but when it imposes——

I think the Deputy should keep to the question of the improvement of estates.

If it is necessary that further money should be allotted, all Parties would be agreeable, and our feeling is that the amount should be brought up to £250,000 annually. There is no reason for slacking up at this particular juncture. This money is reproductively spent. It goes into the land and it makes the land better. It produces a national asset, and even the Minister for Finance, who was responsible for cutting down the Estimate in the first place —we do not know the circumstances which made him relent, but we hope that his changed attitude is due to the good offices of the back benchers of Cumann na nGaedheal—has admitted that at least 70 per cent. of the money spent last year could be considered as a national asset, such work as the State could legitimately borrow money for.

If that is so, at least £100,000 of the £193,000 could be considered as abnormal expenditure. Then again, all these people are paying back for the improvements made on their holdings so that whatever way we look at it, the work is of national benefit. It is of a great deal more benefit than money voted here for other purposes. I think it is expenditure of the nature in which the House should exercise its discretion and endeavour to get the Ministry to increase the sums available. I have only to reiterate what I have already mentioned, that while we are glad to see vesting and the other work of the Land Commission being speeded up, we, on this side, also want to see the ranch lands divided. When we look through the long lists in the annual report of the Land Commission and see the hundreds of thousands of acres in the midland counties which have not been divided and upon which very little progress has been made, we wonder whether the Land Commission is really in earnest. We have heard it frequently stated that some of the schemes are not successful. If they are not successful I say that the Land Commission or no member of the House ought to lay the blame on the tenants. When we consider the agricultural depression, and the peculiar difficulties that people have in working land at present, I think it is extraordinary that so many of the tenants who acquire land have been able to carry on so well.

There is another matter which I wish to mention, but I dare say the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would rule me out if I brought it up. I would simply ask the Parliamentary Secretary to let us know exactly what is the cause of the delay. Is there a sufficient staff to keep the work up to the level of previous years, or are the legal processes through which the acquisition of these lands has to go responsible for holding up a great deal of this work?

Is it a fact that when the Land Commission took over lands, as has been the case, for example, in County Tipperary, and when it was decided in court that some of them could not be taken over, and that other parts could only be taken at a much higher price, the Land Commission very often after having gone to the trouble of gazetting and inspecting the lands then leave them there, simply because it was found under the decision of the court no longer economic to proceed? If that is the case, and if these matters of legal procedure are one of the factors keeping the Land Commission from proceeding as rapidly as they could proceed with the division of untenanted lands, I suggest that legislation ought to be introduced to deal with it. There is no use telling us that more money cannot be made available than is being spent for the work of dividing up land, while, on the other hand, scores of thousands of pounds can be found to increase the prices paid to the owners by the Land Commission.

The Deputy is now going into the price paid for the acquisition of lands.

If the Parliamentary Secretary can throw more light on the subject, and tell us exactly why the work cannot be proceeded with, I hope he will do so.

It seems pretty difficult to steer clear of the rulings under this Estimate, as the road seems to be rather narrow, but, at the same time, I would like, if possible, to call attention to a few items which might be relevant, and which are certainly important. As far as I see, this is not an Estimate in which there is actual expenditure, inasmuch as a great amount of the money is returnable, and a certain amount returnable within a very short period. If it can be considered an investment it is certainly a really good investment, because it is one of the most important purposes the Land Commission has to carry out. But I find one great drawback gradually cropping up under the heading of improvements and special works. It is more especially noticeable under the 1903 Act, and, of course, after a time it will become noticeable under this Act. Certain improvements were carried out under the 1903 Act, mainly making roads, which are considered improvements. That took place where huge estates existed, especially in counties like Meath, that in certain instances were not connected up by any roads or passes. New roads had to be made right through these large estates to connect with the county roads. That was some considerable time ago, and the result is, after incurring the expenditure on the roads, and after the tenants had been vested, and are paying for the making of the roads, there is no means at the present time of having the roads maintained in proper order. The result is that they are largely unfit for transport. Those tenant farmers pay rates, but for some reason they cannot get assistance from the county council. They cannot get any further assistance from the Land Commission, with the result that roads which cost the nation a good deal of money, and which the tenants are paying back, are gradually dwindling away. I may be told that the tenants should take steps to put the roads in order themselves. That is reasonable, of course, to certain people, but to others who understand the position it would be found practically unworkable, as it is nearly impossible to get the tenants to agree to put the roads in proper repair. In a few years the money spent on these roads will become a total loss. I have nothing further to mention under this heading, any more than to say that the amount to be expended is a good deal less than hitherto. These improvements and special works are very necessary. In the case of ranch land the expenditure is practically an investment returnable very soon, so that it is rather a pity to ease off, especially in this direction.

Máidir leis an meastachán a bhí ós ár gcóir £32,000 isé an t-aon locht amháin atá agam air ná a laighead. B'fhearr liom dá n-íarrií a thuille airgid chun a thuille oibre do dhéanamh. Bhí áthas orainn a fheiceál ón dtuarasgabháil do cuireadh amach le déanaí go bhfuil dul chun cinn san sgéal, an talamh do roinnt, mar is mithid é. Is maith an rud cigirí do chur ag obair ag roinnt na talmhan ach do réir mar tá an obair ag dul ar aghaidh fá láthair ní críocnóchar é go ceann ocht mblian. Ba cheart é do chríochnú roimhe sin—sé sin an talamh do roint gan trácht ar na daoine do chur i seilbh i dtreo nach mbeadh siad ag íoc brabach in ionad cíosa nó interest in lieu of rent. Nuair a bhí an meastachán ós ár geóir anuiridh bé ár ngearán nach raibh go leor airgid ag teastáil. Is maith an rud go bhfuil a thuille airgid ag teastáil anois toise go bhfuil an obair ag dul ar aghaidh níos mire. An t-airgead a eaithtear ar an dóigh seo tioefaidh tairbhe don tír as—tairbhe do na féirmeóirí agus do na sclábhuithe. Agus ar an abhar san, ní dó liom go gcuirfidh aon Teachta in aghaidh an t-airgead seo do thabhairt don Roinn.

I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to state that, with the sanction of the Minister for Finance, some of this money would be expended on lands already vested.

I did not say that; I said it would be necessary to obtain the sanction of the Minister for Finance before any money could be expended on vested lands.

None of this money is going to the improvement of vested lands?

No, this money will be spent on untenanted land.

The improvements on which money is being spent, at any rate in portion of my constituency, are not improvements at all, and the money could be better spent for some more useful purpose.

Does the Deputy object to the improvements being made?

Yes. I called the Parliamentary Secretary's attention five months ago to the activities of one of his inspectors down there in regard to the so-called improvement of estates. I would like to know whether anything has been done yet in that district. I am alluding to the Mount Uniack estate, where one of his inspectors was spending money in tearing down a mansion. I quite understand the delay that is taking place in the Department in regard to the taking over and dividing of ranches. I quite understand that the Parliamentary Secretary found that he had burnt his fingers, and I hope when in future he sends down to my constituency somebody to inspect and to value these lands, he will send down somebody who will at least have some sympathy with those who are to be put into the estates.

The Deputy ought not to use this Estimate to criticise civil servants. The Deputy can criticise the Parliamentary Secretary.

Very well. The Parliamentary Secretary is apparently responsible. I am only calling attention to what happened in my constituency with regard to this matter, and I think this is the place to do so. Estates have been purchased and gentlemen are walking off with four times the value of the land, while the tenants who come in afterwards find it quite impossible to pay the money. I gave the name of one estate, and I can give the names of some more.

They have the right to appeal.

I suppose so.

Why did they not appeal?

I understand that an inspector has been sent down there to inspect three or four estates, holdings, or as the case may be——

What particular estate is the Deputy referring to?

We are not dealing with the acquisition of estates on this Vote, but with the improvement of estates.

As far as the improvement of estates is concerned, in my constituency it would be better for the Parliamentary Secretary to throw the money into the tide and not be wrecking estates instead of improving them. They have done more wrecking in my constituency than was done either by the Tans or by your crowd, who did more than we ever did.

I was surprised to hear that the Deputy had left a mansion in his constituency for anyone to pull down.

I think that there is very little to reply to. The criticism has been very much milder than I anticipated, and I may take that as a tribute to the exceptionally good work that has been done by the Land Commission during the year. Deputy Derrig referred to the fact that £316,000 had been spent in the year 1928-9. There was only £226,000 actually spent during that year, and the balance of the money went back to the Minister for Finance. It is very difficult to estimate accurately at the beginning of a year what money is likely to be spent on improvement works in the course of that year; in fact, it is impossible to estimate accurately what money will be spent on improvement work in any one particular year. Difficulties of all kinds arise in connection with estates, and sometimes it is not very easy to find solutions for these difficulties, in fact it takes years to find solutions for some of the difficulties that arise in connection with certain estates. Then, on the other hand, we may find it necessary to carry out improvement works on certain estates that in the ordinary course of events would not have been reached for two or three years perhaps so that on the whole accurate estimating is well nigh impossible.

We have been examining this problem for the last twelve months, we have been trying to get down to some sort of scientific basis for calculating expenditure during a particular year, but so far we have found it impossible to arrive at anything approaching a satisfactory basis of calculation. It is more than likely that for many years to come it will be necessary for some Parliamentary Secretary or for some Minister to approach the Dáil for a supplementary estimate at some period during the financial year.

Deputy Derrig complained of the delay that is taking place in connection with the distribution of untenanted land. I stated last year, in reply to a similar complaint of Deputy Derrig's, that untenanted land is being distributed at present at least three times faster than it was at any period during the former régime, and I think I quoted figures to prove my statement. Under all the Land Acts up to 1923, 750,000 acres were acquired and distributed. During the six years since the passing of the Act of 1923, 370,000 acres have been distributed. In other words, we have been distributing land during the last six years at the rate of, approximately, 60,000 acres a year, whereas the rate of distribution prior to that did not in any one year exceed 20,000 acres.

On a point of order. Is the Parliamentary Secretary in order in discussing the division of land on this Vote, seeing that Deputies were prevented from discussing it?

I quite agree that the Parliamentary Secretary is out of order.

If you confine me to the improvement of estates I am afraid that I will have very little more to say.

I must confine the Parliamentary Secretary to that, because that is his Estimate.

Deputy O'Reilly complained that the roads made on estates in his constituency have got into a very bad state of repair. I am afraid that I cannot offer the Deputy any redress. I think it was clearly understood that when these roads were made, even under the Act of 1903, the tenants would take responsibility for keeping them in repair, and certainly it was never contemplated that the Land Commission should assume responsibility for keeping roads made under any Land Act in permanent repair.

Deputy Fahy referred to the Congested Districts Board's estates in the West, and to the fact that a number of tenants there are still making payments in lieu of rent. I realise perfectly well that many of these tenants are really suffering under a grievance. This is, of course, a legacy which the Land Commission has inherited from the old régime. It was the policy of the Congested Districts Board to deal with the easiest estates and to leave the difficult ones over. We have inherited that legacy, but we are trying to get rid of it as quickly as we can, and we have made considerable progress during the past year. As a matter of fact, only yesterday I was looking through some statistics relating to the progress made in dealing with the Congested Districts Board's estates, and I find that there has been an increase of 50 or 60 per cent. this year as compared with last year. We hope in the course of two or three years to be finished with these Congested Districts Board's estates, and in the meantime I can only assure Deputies that the tenants' interests are being looked after as well as can be done in the circumstances.

I do not know what to say to Deputy Corry and his castle—the Minister expressed surprise that there was a castle left in his constituency —but I will say this, that every Deputy from the constituency that Deputy Corry represents has expressed complete satisfaction with the improvement work done there, and I am pressed almost daily by some of his colleagues to carry out further improvement works on other estates in the constituency. But as the Deputy objects to improvement works altogether, I hope when he goes back to his constituency he will tell the people who sent him here that he objects to the Land Commission carrying out improvement works anywhere on any estate.

I would be delighted if the Deputies would come down to this estate and they would see for themselves the position there. I know there are some Deputies who were already there and they did not like it.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary say if this money for improvement is applicable to tenanted land?

It is applicable to tenanted lands—does the Deputy mean non-vested land?

It is applicable to non-vested land.

Amendment by leave withdrawn.
Vote put, and agreed to.
Barr
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