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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 1930

Vol. 33 No. 4

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 60—Unemployment Insurance.

I move:

"Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £1,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Arachais Díomhaointis agus Malartán Fostuíochta, maraon le síntiúisí do Chiste an Díomhaointis."

"That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Unemployment Insurance and Employment Exchanges, including contribution to the Unemployment Fund."

This Estimate is for practically £12,000 due to the increase in the State grant, necessitated by the fact that more stamps for unemployment insurance have been sold because of the fact that more people are in employment. There has to be a deduction made of £5,900 because there are appropriations-in-aid to the amount of one-eighth of the entire sum that comes into the fund from the State, the employer and the employee, and there are savings in other sub-heads which reduce it to £1,000.

The Minister has stated that this additional sum is required because more stamps were purchased, arising out of the fact that more people are in employment than was anticipated when the original Estimate was prepared. It is, of course, a common failing of members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party to exaggerate the position concerning employment in the Free State. They always like to represent the position as being somewhat better than it is. I think that the Minister's statement that this additional sum is necessitated by the fact that more people are in employment can be questioned. An examination of the figures available seems to show that the increase in the number of persons insured under the Act is due, not to any increase in the amount of employment available, but to more rigorous enforcement of the Acts. If one examines the figures relating to the total number of people insured under the Acts for the various years since the establishment of the Free State, one notices that the number recorded in June, 1926, was higher than the number for any subsequent year until 1928. On 3rd June, 1922, the number of persons insured under the Acts was 261,000. The number fell in the next year to 242,000, and then remained at about the 250,000 mark until the year 1928, when it suddenly jumped to 280,000. It rose then on 7th January of this year to 284,000. Now, the increase in the number of persons employed under the Acts between July, 1927, and October, 1928, was not due to any big volume of employment being suddenly made available for our people. The increase during that period in the number of persons insured was actually 35,000, but during the same period the number of registered unemployed increased also by 4,000. If we examine the figures relating to building operations, for example, we notice that the number of houses built in 1928 was substantially less than in 1927. There is no evidence in any sphere of industrial activity that additional employment was found in 1928 for 35,000 additional workers. If we examine the figures given in the census of occupations, in respect of 1926, we notice that there were returned, as being engaged in occupations insurable under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, a number of workers exceeding 300,000, but the actual number of workers insured in that particular year was, I think, about 250,000.

In other words, there was evidence that there was in 1926 a considerable amount of evasion of the Acts by employers and employees. If the Department of Industry and Commerce have been more successful in the enforcement of the Acts since then, as the figures seem to indicate, that is something upon which they can be congratulated. I do not think, however, that there is any reason to believe that the volume of employed in the country has increased as the Minister has sought to make us believe by his introductory speech. Only this day week I received from the Minister a return showing the number of persons in receipt of Unemployment Insurance benefits on 2nd January, 1929, and the 1st January, 1930, and I notice that the number has increased by 15 per cent. in that period. Similarly, I notice that the number of workers registered as unemployed, at the Dublin Exchange, increased during that period also. The number of workers at Limerick, Athlone, Galway and Sligo Exchanges, also increased. In the other smaller Exchanges the numbers show a decrease. The only big Exchange in which there is a decrease is Cork, where the decrease, no doubt, is accounted for by the increased employment in Messrs. Fords' works.

I do not think there is any reason to believe that the employment situation has substantially improved during the past year, despite the fact that this additional Estimate is now before us. In connection with these figures there is one other matter that I should like to refer to. On the 8th of January, 1930, Deputy MacEoin gave an interview to the "Boston Herald" in which he said unemployment in the Free State was not particularly bothersome and that there was, in fact, only 10,000 unemployed at the time. On the 7th January, 1930, the actual number on the register, as unemployed, was 24,886, and the number of registered unemployed is approximately about half the actual number of persons seeking work.

There is another matter I would like the Minister to refer to. There appears upon this Estimate an Appropriation-in-Aid of £5,900, the additional amount estimated to be received from the Unemployment Fund consequent on the increased income of the fund referred to in Sub-head G. The Government is entitled to take one-eighth of the income of the fund for the purpose of meeting administration expenses. The total amount estimated for administration purposes for the year 1929-30 was £94,738; the one-eighth of the estimated revenue of the fund appropriated by the original Estimate amounted to £114,689, and now an additional £5,900 is being taken out of the Fund for administration purposes. In other words, the Department is taking from the Unemployment Insurance Fund an amount of approximately £26,000 more than the estimated expenditure on administration as shown in the Unemployment Insurance Vote. When this matter was mentioned in the Dáil before, the Minister for Industry and Commerce explained that a certain part of the cost of administering unemployment insurance was borne upon the Vote for his own Department. I have no doubt that explanation is correct, although I find it very hard to believe that the cost of administering unemployment insurance borne by the Minister's Department amounts to £26,000. I think it is very unsatisfactory that the Dáil has no means of knowing the exact cost of administering the Unemployment Insurance Acts. It is very desirable that the entire cost of administration in that connection should be brought under one Vote. I would like the Minister to tell us whether or not the £120,000 taken from the Unemployment Insurance Fund does, in fact, meet the entire cost of administration, or if the general taxpayer has to contribute anything towards that cost. It seems to me, however, no matter what additional work may be done in connection with this Vote by officials from the Minister's Department, that it is not unlikely that there is a surplus left after all administration expenses have been met which is being used in relief of general taxation. If that is the case it is most undesirable and, I think, illegal.

You think that is done.

I do not know.

You have insinuated it.

I say if it is done it is illegal, but I say that it is undesirable that the Dáil should not have any information as to what is the entire cost of Unemployment Insurance administration. It is possible that the amount taken out of the Fund does not equal the cost of administration, but if that is the case there should be, with the other Votes concerned, a sub-head that would indicate the amount of the Vote which is devoted to that purpose. I should be glad if the Minister would clarify the position in that respect when he replies.

The Deputy opened his remarks by stating that Deputies belonging to the Party to which I belong made it a point to put a gloss upon the unemployment situation. It would be a matter of bad party politics for the Deputy to admit that there was no improvement in the employment situation, but nevertheless in two and a quarter years the insured population of this country has advanced by 40,000 people. The case is made that that is due to better compliance. We know more about compliance than the Deputy. We know exactly where the faults are. It is the considered opinion of the Department that of that 40,000 increase in two and a quarter years there cannot be more than 2,000 put down to better compliance with the Act. Everything the Deputy says proves that contention. He talked of the bigger number of registered unemployed. Naturally when there is a bigger bulk to draw upon there will be an increase, and the Deputy should realise that. He quotes a statement made in America. I do not know what the statement was, but if it were to the effect that 10,000 represented anything like the hard core of unemployed in this country I would consider it an exaggeration. No attempt merely to get over the situation, which is one that ought to please everybody in this House, by saying that it is due to better compliance without a single item of evidence, will succeed. Simply the Deputy stands up and pronounces in a dogmatic way that it is because of better compliance, having no experience of the machinery and of how compliance is dealt with. He just makes a simple statement. That is the type of simple statement that is given down the country. One does not mind it there with the kind of audiences the Deputy addresses, but here there should be some attempt to bring in facts. What are the facts? 40,000 people more in the insured population of this country in two and a quarter years, and that in a period in which the Deputy has known from answers given here, that due to tariffs on industries, trade facilities and other means employment has been increasing. That is positively shown. Here we get the other side of the proof.

As to the general taxpayers meeting any portion of this, if Deputy Lemass wants exact figures he can ask a Parliamentary question and I will give him the best estimate I can. But the best estimate I can give at the moment is that the general taxpayer is contributing to the cost of the administration of the Insurance Act. The Deputy had the temerity to say that the Department was doing something which was illegal. I cannot give the Deputy the figures at the moment. He simply said he could not see how it was possible that a sum of £26,000 was spent out of the general vote on unemployment insurance administration. Surely he could see that it would be absurd and an uneconomic thing to keep a special finance and establishment branch for unemployment insurance. They are establishment services and the finance service would be rendered from the general branch. Certain proportion of the headquarters expenses has to be borne against unemployment insurance but the Deputy could not have been long in this House without realising from the number of questions put on this single matter that the staff at headquarters are kept very busy on this special question of unemployment insurance, and the way the fund is administered and apportioned between the applicants there is quite considerable proof. I cannot give the figures at the moment of the exact amount contributed. I do know that in previous years enquiry was made but in fact this amount that we take by way of appropriation-in-aid does not meet the full expenses of the fund.

Would the Minister state the total cost to the finance establishment concerned? Does the Department represent £36,000?

I am not saying it does.

Or if not, is the work on the unemployment fund done by members of the transport branch or the geological branch or what branch?

The headquarters branch.

Does the total amount to £36,000?

The Deputy can find that out for himself.

Will the Minister tell us how it is possible to increase the number of workers in employment by 35,000 without reducing the number of unemployed?

Certainly. There is a bigger mass of people from whom people casually become unemployed. We have our calculations and of the 22,000 registered from time to time nothing like 20 per cent. are unemployed for any lengthy period. There is a considerable change over. If your numbers increase from 245,000 to 284,000 there are 40,000 more people in occupation for some part of the year who may be out for another part of the year. Surely if the same percentage of unemployment is amongst the insured population there is an immediate reason why the number of registered unemployed would be greater without any greater unemployment in the country than previously.

Is the Minister satisfied that non-compliance does not exist?

No, but I do not say it is brought to the point where this non-compliance is very nearly non-existent and it has been that way for some years past.

Vote put and agreed to.
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