I move:
"That a Select Committee consisting of eleven Deputies, to be nominated by the Committee of Selection, be set up to consider the present position and future prospects of the industry of tobacco-growing in Saorstát Eireann; and to report whether any assistance should be given to it, and what should be the nature and extent of any such assistance;
"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records."
I know that the Minister when he comes to reply will say that this question of tobacco growing has been examined often enough arid that no good results accrued; that time was simply wasted; that it was impossible to grow this plant here, and such things as that. I believe there has been proof enough given that the plant can be grown here if it got sufficient encouragement. Perhaps the rebate in duty was sufficient to create this industry and make it a flourishing industry, but what I wish to draw attention to and what does not seem to have been attended to on previous occasions is the severity of the excise rules and regulations which govern the growing of tobacco. I believe that there is profit to be got from an inquiry into these rules and regulations and that some suggestions would be forthcoming from the Revenue Department as to how they could be made somewhat easier and more encouragement given to farmers to grow this plant. Most of us are aware that it was grown in this country—that County Wexford grew it largely. We are also prepared to admit that at that time County Wexford got a good deal of profit through an illicit trade with England. But we will also have to admit that it was in the interests of the Colonies that the industry was prohibited here, and I think on inquiry we will admit that on this last occasion the decay of the industry was largely due to the interests of the Colonies.
I hold that what mostly prevented the propagation of the plant was the severity of the excise rules and regulations. We are all familiar with different Acts passed long ago by the British Government—Land Acts and other Acts. These Acts were passed in the belief that they would bring about what was desired. But as soon as these Acts got into the hands of those who were to administer them and they had formulated their rules and regulations, the Acts at once became useless and the desires and wishes of the sponsors were defeated. We have had previously in this country big sums of money spent on this industry. We had rebates of tax. The Minister will probably explain, as he explained before, how much the taxpayer puts up if a rebate is given. All that was done and it was admitted that the plant could be grown. Then we had Commissions set up to inquire into the cost of growing and all that, and reports brought in putting the cost of production altogether higher than it really was. They magnified the difficulties in growing the plant here. All that, of course, to anyone who knows anything about the growth of the plant was absolutely propaganda. There was no necessity for such minute instructions nor was there any necessity for expensive manure or all these precautions. Neither was there a necessity for the expensive barns that were erected and for which the people paid and which are left there useless to-day. Tobacco can be grown and will without all that.
Now, I shall be asked what is the reason it was not grown. I am going to give the reason by reading some of the rules and regulations which governed the growth of tobacco and which aimed definitely at preventing that crop from being grown from an industrial point of view. In other words, the rules and regulations definitely prevented the manufacturing of the leaf in this country. You have the most foolish rules and regulations governing the tobacco growing that anybody could imagine. Of course we all quite understand that the idea was that tobacco should not be allowed to be grown, that the Government thought it advisable to make these promises with regard to tobacco growing, and then the regulations were brought in, and the result was to prevent the industry from materialising. I do not intend to read all the rules and regulations because it would take too long a time, and that in itself will give some idea of what the farmer had to face at the start of his attempt to grow tobacco. Most people will admit that the farmer would not read all these rules, but he would read one or two of them, and he would say "We will not have this because if we do we will have visitors four or five times a day, or else we must buy a piece of land three miles away and build a factory and get two securities of £1,000 each." I admit that the Revenue Commissioners are not inclined to carry out these orders to the very letter of the law, but at the same time it does not follow that they could not do it if they wanted. The reasons why I want this Committee set up is to enquire into these excise rules and regulations to see if they are not too severe upon the industry to give it a fair chance. Here is Part I. of these statutory rules and orders, 1911, No. 49. It says:—
"1. As to licence entry and duty. (1) A person may not sow the seed of the tobacco plant or grow tobacco in the United Kingdom or cure tobacco grown in the United Kingdom without having in force an Excise licence for the purpose, and except upon land and premises which have been approved by the Commissioners and have been duly entered by that person.
"2. The Commissioners may refuse to grant a licence for any land or premises on or in which from their situation with respect to the premises of a manufacturer of tobacco, they think it inexpedient to allow the growing or curing of tobacco.
"3. A person requiring a licence shall obtain from the proper officer a form of application and shall furnish in the form the particulars thereby required, and shall return the form duly filled up and signed by him to the officer.
"4. The licence shall whenever issued be granted only on payment in full of the duty chargeable there-on, and shall expire on the last day of February in each year.
"5. Every grower and every curer shall in each year before making use of any land, shed or place for growing, curing, or storing any tobacco make entry in the prescribed form of the land upon which the tobacco is to be grown, and of every shed or place to be used by him in connection with the growing or curing or storing of tobacco, specifying the purpose for which each such shed or place is to be used, and the entry shall not be withdrawn while any tobacco remains on or in the entered land, shed or place. The grower or curer shall sign the entry, and deliver it to the proper officer.
"6. Every grower before commencing to grow any tobacco and every curer before receiving any tobacco for curing shall give security in such sum and in such form as the Commissioners may require that he will observe and comply with all regulations made by the Commissioners in relation to the tobacco. The security to be given by a grower shall also be a security for the due removal of all tobacco grown by him to the premises of a curer or for otherwise accounting for the same.
"7. Every grower who cures tobacco grown by himself and every curer must produce to the proper officer for preliminary weighing all tobacco grown by him or received by him for curing in any year as soon as it is in a condition to be weighed and not later than the first day of January following the cutting or gathering of the tobacco or such subsequent day as the Commissioners may allow. Each package in which the tobacco is produced must be distinguished by an identification mark and number, and the weight ascertained at the preliminary weighing shall be used for the purpose of raising a presumptive charge of duty in respect of the total quantity of the tobacco produced.
"8. The duty on the tobacco shall become chargeable as soon as it is in a fit state for use by a manufacturer of tobacco and an account of the tobacco shall then be taken, but in the event of there being a deficiency not accounted for by a legitimate cause in the weight then ascertained as compared with the weight ascertained on the preliminary weighing the weight ascertained on the preliminary weighing shall, subject to such allowance for loss of weight during the process of curing as the Commissioners may allow, be deemed to be the weight of the tobacco chargeable with duty."
Now that is the preliminary part and I am quite sure the House will agree that these rules and regulations so far could easily be simplified and made to hold less terrors for the average farmer, who even yet has the greatest terror of officials. Of course they go a lot further than this and they speak of tobacco entry form books to be kept and such other things, with the result that the growing of tobacco has largely been impeded if not entirely prevented. Even under the present rate of 6/8 duty in the £ it could be made profitable for a man to grow an acre or two of tobacco and manufacture it himself. Although the Department thought previously that tobacco could only be grown for pipe purposes and that we could only grow a very strong dark tobacco that, of course, is not the case. It is strange that in this country and especially in Wexford a leaf can be grown for cigar or cheroot manufacture that cannot be beaten in any other part of the world.
You can grow a cheroot leaf in this country which, when harvested, hung up and dried for 9 or 10 weeks, can be smoked without any process of manufacture. I admit, from the Excise point of view, there is great danger of abuse there and loss of revenue, but at the same time I think the day has come when that cannot so largely enter into the question, and when farmers ought to be allowed to grow on their land whatever they can possibly grow with profit. I admit that the revenue obtained from tobacco in this country is big, but it is obtained, perhaps, without very much consideration from the point of view of the prosperity of the country. It was found by the Revenue Authorities to be a very handy means, of collecting taxes. The duty amounts to three million five hundred thousand pounds. I admit that has to be considered, but if these rules and regulations were modified for a period of five or six years, until people got confidence and the industry was more or less established, there is nothing at all to prevent the Minister for Finance at any time resorting to stronger methods and preventing any abuses that might arise.
I admit he can make a good case that we would slip it across the border and that there would be a certain amount of confusion in that way, but I believe that the tobacco growing industry in this country under the conditions I say, that is, for the purpose of the manufacture of cheroots and cigars could be made an industry which would occupy a number of families. Not alone that, but the fact of smoking cigars and cheroots, if they can be sold, and I believe they can, at a low price would be an easy means of cultivating a taste for Irish tobacco. I would like to see a committee set up which would consider that point. I am able to give an example of a man in the Co. Wexford who started with only £30 capital. I do not say that was used in the growing. I mean the manufacturing side. That man is manufacturing cheroots; he employs 6 or 7 hands, and he has a fairly nice little industry going; but for that industry those people would be on the road. He himself grows and manufactures his own tobacco, and will be in a position at a later period to take tobacco from others. The difficulty is this: there are rules and regulations preventing all that. I believe if this committee was set up a solution could be got.
We all admit that the plant can be grown; it is grown in Europe and all over the world; it is grown in hot and cold climates. The flavours are different, but it can be said that the tobacco grown here is 50 per cent. more wholesome and better than tobacco that comes from the United States. That is the particular tobacco used here for cigarettes. That tobacco is not used in America. Great Britain and Ireland are the only European countries which make use of the American leaf. France grows and uses her own tobacco; Germany the same; but we, somehow or other, have not been able to succeed, I believe, because of these rules and regulations. There is any amount of scope for an inquiry. They will have sufficient evidence. I know if I asked that a Committee be set up for the other purpose, the Minister would easily reply there is no existing industry and there is no one to give evidence. A lot of the evidence given previously, I admit, was not given exactly as things worked out. There was a great deal of false propaganda used. It would be reasonable that that portion should be inquired into as well. I do not believe that abuses would arise for three or four years.
Another thing about tobacco is the importance of the nicotine industry, and what prevents it from arising here. Something like ninety thousand lbs. weight of tobacco was put in bond here. An agreement had been reached in the County Waterford for sale to a manufacturer, but when it came to removal the process of preventing it being used for any other purpose was so expensive that no sale could be brought about. I know myself there are far cheaper and simpler processes for that purpose, but the Revenue authorities would not agree. I know that cheap experiments have been tried in the last five or six years to bring about that result.
The Revenue Commissioners not only objected but issued a warning that such an attempt should not be made. Being a farming community we use a great deal of sheep dip: it is admitted on all sides that nicotine sheep dip is far more efficacious than any of the poisoned dips. In County Waterford you have a factory turning out nicotine, buying the raw material from Germany, and exporting the nicotine to England. They have no market here, for its uses are not known in this country. You are able to get three crops of tobacco in the year. The stalks are quite suitable for the manufacture of nicotine. As you harvest the leaf here you are not allowed to do anything with the stalks; you must destroy them and have an officer of the Revenue present while you do that. If you want to sow seed you have to explain how much you have sown; if you are going to plant out you must give the officer two days' notice. He must be present and know the amount you have in each class of crop. When you are going to harvest it you have to give two days' notice. Sometimes he is not available the weather gets bad, and you cannot go on with it until he is there. If you want to turn it into tobacco or nicotine you must have a bonded store. In that bonded store you must provide a room with water for the Revenue officer to preside in. You must have a scales properly proved and correct, and you must have your tobacco in hales of 80 lbs. and nothing less. That bonded stores must be at least three miles away. You must enter into security of £2,000, two persons of £1,000 each. I admit that on application those things have been reduced. That might be the case once, but it-may not always be the case. I have no hesitation in saying that if the Minister will agree to set up a Committee for the purpose and relax the rules and regulations and make them a little more sensible, in other words to indicate that he has not the same suspicion at the back of his mind as the British Government had, the tobacco industry could become a source of great profit. It would give people, especially labourers, employment. The industry goes hand in hand with poultry raising. The plant grows on fowl manure better than any other. I have seen it grow at 990 feet and in bogs.
There is no difficulty whatever in the way. The cheroot manufacture is the one I should like to see concentrated upon because the cheroot cannot be made by machine. The human hand is required to make a cheroot. It is quite a simple process and its use will gradually cultivate a taste for home-grown tobacco. The moment that people get a taste for home-grown tobacco they will resort to no foreign-grown tobacco. They will find that the amount of dope contained in foreign-grown tobacco does not exist in Irish tobacco. Irish tobacco needs no manipulation, no curing, and no chemical processes of any description. I believe that foreign tobaccos need a good deal of manipulation, especially American tobacco. American tobacco is used here because it is the handiest. It is well graded. There is no expense in the handling of it. At the same time, although we have new factories set up here every day, they do not seem to have given additional employment according to statistics. Indeed, the number of operatives seems to have decreased while the number of salaried officials has increased.
I dare say that on the motion later we shall be told a good deal more about the abuses that exist. I do not suggest that if we set up this Committee and if we tone down these rules and regulations and get an industry started here—I do not suggest that, having done this, we should start to compete with the Imperial Tobacco Company or that we should start to export tobacco. I do suggest that anybody who has the tradition or taste ought to be allowed to grow it with a good deal of freedom and not so much suspicion. The officials in general are very polite and thoughtful people but I suggest that at times these officials can use the power they possess with too great severity. I would ask the Minister to consider seriously the tendency of the rules and regulations which govern this whole industry. He may say that that can be considered by going before the Commission. That is not the case. The setting up of a committee will not cost very much and I believe that far better results would be got in that way than by the other course. I am quite sure that the Minister is only too anxious that any industry that can be set up should be set up. I know, although he may be a non-smoker, he is convinced that tobacco of a very suitable kind can be grown here. Tobacco for the manufacture of cheroots is being tested by the public at present. There are numerous shops throughout the country selling these cheroots which are manufactured by a common or garden amateur and untrained hands—ordinary country boys and girls who have only started the work within the last year or two. No special cheroot manufacturer was got over from Belgium or from any of the defunct factories in England. It was started by local brains and I am quite sure that the House will come to the conclusion that if that industry were handled properly it would be a great source of employment.
