asked the Minister for Finance whether he has received a complete list of subscribers to the Dáil Eireann (Internal) Loan, 1919-20, in the Granlahan district, Ballinlough, County Roscommon, which list was declared correct by the original collectors on affidavit before a Peace Commissioner; and, if so, whether he will state the reason repayment has not yet been made; and if it is intended to accept this list as correct.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dáil Loan Subscriptions.
Two lists, each of which purports to contain a record of persons in the Granlahan district, County Roscommon, who subscribed to the Dáil Eireann (Internal) Loan, 1919-20, have been received in my Department. One of these lists is supported by an affidavit; the particulars contained in the two lists, however, do not agree and discrepancies also arise in a number of cases in which individual applications for repayment have been made to my Department. The names of a number of persons who claim to have subscribed are not included in either list. The matter is being investigated and a communication will be addressed to the collectors concerned at an early date.
Mr. Boland
May I ask how long is it since the Minister got these lists?
There was one list in May and I could not tell the Deputy the date on which the other list was received.
Mr. Boland
In the opinion of the people in Granlahan and in my own opinion it has taken altogether too long to settle the matter. The result is that in this particular district, as in other districts in Roscommon, suspicion is attached to those who collected the money. I certainly think that the Department ought to speed the matter up and have it settled one way or the other.
asked the Minister for Finance if he will state the total amount of the Dáil Eireann (Internal) Loan, 1920, which has been repaid in County Roscommon and if he will further state the reason why, in almost every district where repayment has been made, several subscribers have not been repaid.
The form in which the records of the Department are kept is such that the preparation of the information asked for by the Deputy in the first part of the question would entail an amount of labour on the part of the staff concerned which would not, in my opinion, be justified. As regards the second part of the question repayment may have been delayed for any one or more of several reasons, such as lack of evidence, discrepancies as to name, address or amount, death of original subscriber, etc.; without an elaborate examination it would not be possible to define the causes of delay in those County Roscommon cases in which repayment has not yet been made.
Mr. Boland
Is the Minister aware that in a number of these cases a questionnaire has been filled up, and in some cases twice? The people seem to think that they are being humbugged. They feel that, and the practice is growing up lately of not answering communications at all. I think the whole procedure is most unsatisfactory. It is about two years since the Minister promised that he would have the matter seen to, but I do not think that very much has been done meanwhile.
A good deal has been done.
asked the Minister for Finance if he has received from Mr. Wm. Judge, Clooncrin, Ballinlough, Co. Roscommon, a complete list of the subscribers to the Dáil Eireann (Internal) Loan (1920), for the Ballinlough district; and also, whether Mr. Judge, at the request of the Finance Department, sent on his receipt book; if the Minister accepts the signed statement from the trustee in Ballinlough that Mr. Judge paid in the money; whether he received two letters from Mr. Judge in which he demanded the return of the receipt book; and, if so, why these letters were not answered.
At the request of my Department Mr. Judge submitted two books containing a list of persons resident in Ballinlough district, County Roscommon, who are stated to have subscribed to the Dáil Eireann Internal Loan, 1919-1920. One of the books shows endorsements which purport to have been made by one of the then County Treasurers, Mr. B. V. Lavin, to the effect that he had received various sums from Mr. Judge. It has not yet been found possible, however, to establish that all these sums were duly forwarded to the Department of Finance; nor have the endorsements been verified.
With regard to the last part of the question, the book to which the Deputy refers, is required for the proper investigation of the applications concerned, and it cannot be returned to Mr. Judge until the investigation has been completed. I regret that through an oversight he was not so informed.
Mr. Boland
This is on a par with the other cases. If the Minister happened to go around a district like Ballinlough he would certainly feel for people like Mr. Judge and Mr. Lavin. Mr. Lavin was the man in that particular district to whom most of the money was handed. He is a very upright man and he has that name, but for the last eighteen months or so people are becoming suspicious of him. In Mr. Judge's case he had some idea of taking the matter into court. He thought that when he sent the book in some notice would be taken of it, especially as he had a letter from the trustee, Mr. Lavin, that he had actually handed in the money. He thought when he sent the receipt book and had Mr. Lavin's signature that it would be accepted, but apparently it has not been. It is a disgrace to find that it takes two years to settle a matter like that.
The matter is one of considerable difficulty. For instance, sums were received from Mr. Lavin, but the sums received from Mr. Lavin did not equal the amount for which signatures were given in the book, in which Mr. Lavin acknowledged that he received certain sums from Mr. Judge. On the other hand, there were sums from another source to which no particulars were attached. As a matter of fact, there is very considerable difficulty in sorting out the facts.
Mr. Boland
Admitting all that, I think that they have had time enough to sift all these matters. I realise the difficulties, but surely the time has been ample.
Will the Minister admit that this is a very serious matter for these people in Roscommon?
The fact that there has been so much confusion is one of the reasons why so much time is required. If everything were straightforward and if the accounts were in such a condition that the facts could be ascertained at once, payment could be made straight away. When there is extreme difficulty in ascertaining the facts there is bound to be delay. Nothing could justify our employing a staff of five or six hundred people and, if we did, most of the new staff which we would employ could not get hold of the facts or the kind of principle upon which they would have to work. Progress could not be made. Everything that can be done to make progress is being done. So far as possible the procedure has been simplified, and any steps or any checks that could be safely cut out have been cut out. Everybody knows the circumstances under which the loan was raised, the shortage of records and the way in which records were destroyed through nobody's fault. That all makes delay inevitable.
As far as we know in Roscommon, no attempt is being made by the Department of Finance to deal with these matters seriously.
Will the Minister tell us the number of the staff employed on this work?
I could not at the moment.
Even roughly?
I could not.
The Minister must have been aware of these facts when he made the statement six months ago that all these cases would be completed inside six months.
A great deal of progress has been made.
That is not the information from different parts of the country. The same state of affairs obtains in Clare as in Roscommon, and I am sure it is also true of other counties. If the Minister gave us some idea of the number of the staff employed, we might have some idea of the progress made.
Mr. Boland
The Minister should have some consideration for the people who collected the money. He should speed the matter up so as to take suspicion off them.
I do not know what we could do to take suspicion off anybody, except to say that in particular cases a considerable sum has been received from particular persons. For instance, the Deputy referred to Mr. Lavin. Undoubtedly a considerable sum was received from Mr. Lavin, but it does not correspond with the amount of money which he acknowledged having received from Mr. Judge. On the other hand, several sums were received from other sources in County Roscommon. Probably Mr. Lavin dispatched it through somebody who did not convey the particulars. There is a great deal of confusion, as the Deputy can see.
asked the Minister for Finance whether he has received the complete list of subscribers to the Dáil Eireann Internal Loan (1920) for the Gortaganny district, Co. Roscommon; and, if so, when it is proposed to repay the subscribers in this district.
A list of persons who are stated to have subscribed to the Dáil Eireann (Internal) Loan, 1919-20, in the Gortaganny district, County Roscommon, has been received in my Department.
Correspondence is taking place with a view to clearing up a number of discrepancies between the particulars contained in the list and those in individual applications for repayment which have been made to my Department. Further, the total amount represented by the list is in excess of the sum which appears to have been received in the Dáil Eireann Department of Finance from this district.
Mr. Boland
Is there any chance of getting finality about this matter? Can we even say that it will be finished within two years, ten years or six months? What is the prospect of bringing this to some finality?
I think it would be perfectly safe to say within ten years, but I hope that it will be a good deal before then.
Mr. Boland
We will have a couple of elections before then.