asked the Minister for Justice if his attention had been drawn to the remarks reported in the "Clare Champion," January 24th, 1931, to have been made by Mr. E.J. McElligott, K.C., Judge of the Circuit Court, when giving his judgment in a civil action for assault brought by Patrick Fennell against Guards William English and John Sands, of the Gárda Síochána, at Kilrush Circuit Court, on January 13th, 1931, and if he will state what action has been taken or what action he intends to take in the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Civil Action against Clare Gárda.
I have seen the newspaper report referred to in the question, but I have not taken and do not propose to take any action. Neither I, nor any other Minister, has any responsibility for words used by a judge in the course of giving judgment.
Is the Minister prepared to allow a practice to grow up in which the judges may abuse their position?
I have already explained to the Deputy that I have no control over judges, that they are independent.
But is it not time that a warning should be given to judges that if they abuse their position this House has a way of dealing with them—it is clear that there is an abuse of privilege in a case of this kind, and does not the Minister think that the House has a way of dealing with it?
The House has not—the Oireachtas has.
I take it that it is the duty of the Majority Party in this House in a case where there is an obvious abuse of privilege by a judge to proceed in the matter?
I do not agree.
Might I ask why this matter—it is not under the Department of Justice—was not answered by the President? I addressed the question originally to the President because I recognised that it was not a matter coming directly under the Department of Justice.
A matter of this sort in my view should not be raised as a political matter. The Deputy said it was the duty of the Majority Party to take action in this matter. I do not subscribe to that view. The whole proceeding of the institutions of this State are the concern of all Parties in this House and if Deputies were to consider matters like this free from political bias, it might be possible to get some accommodation on the point.
Might I point out to the President that it is clearly a matter for the Executive, which is the Majority Party. If this House has to take action it is obvious that that is action which should be taken by the Majority Party.
I do not subscribe to that at all.
Will the President not admit that if action like this were to be taken by the House, if an expression of opinion were to come from this House, that it would be a very important matter that it would be carried by the majority?
Again I say I do not subscribe to that at all; it should be in the opinion of the Oireachtas. If a certain understanding could be arrived at regarding what should form the subject of pronouncement in the courts—or what should not form the subject of pronouncements in the courts—I would agree. This is a matter that should be considered before being raised by question and answer in this House. The raising of the matter by question and answer in the House gives it a political complexion which I consider highly undesirable.
Might I ask the President how he arrives at the conclusion that when a question like this is asked it indicates political bias? As far as I am concerned I do not care on what issue a remark like that was made. I consider it altogether inappropriate that it should be made by a judge, and I put the question to the President in order to draw his attention to what I consider is an abuse.
There are many abuses which I would like to be able to correct—this is not one of the major ones—if there was a more sensible acceptance of the general question of responsibility and a little less politics in this matter.
Again I want to point out that I am not raising this as a political matter.
I am very glad to hear that.
The President has indicated that some decision has to be arrived at by the Dáil and Seanad. Who is going to proceed in this matter—is it everybody's business?
It is the approach to the whole subject that I object to. We ought not to look for opportunities of scoring off other institutions in the State. I think on reflection that the Deputy will agree that if there be a question which requires settlement, there ought to be some understanding with regard to pronouncements, and I think the less combative method adopted in dealing with it the better.
Might I ask the President how this is a combative method? I put a simple question on the Order Paper drawing the President's attention to a remark made by a judge. I asked him what action has been taken on this matter.
It may not be necessary in a single case of this kind to take any action at all. What I did hope to let the Deputy understand was that if certain understandings are desirable in a matter of this kind, I think the less heat and the more considerate way in which we consider matters of that kind the better, but that it ought not to arise out of a particular case.
Was the judge considerate?
Would the Deputy allow me for a moment. To put it in a nutshell, the fewer scare headlines which appear in the Press from the Courts, I think, the better for the judges.
I want to know from the President how he thinks this question of pronouncements by judges should be investigated. What steps does he propose the House should take? Does he propose that anybody who feels this thing is wrong should take the steps?
I think this is the most undesirable method we could possibly have in a matter of this kind. I think that the matter might be considered generally, and that the results of the consideration might be communicated from one Party to another. The last step should be that the Oireachtas should administer a rebuff or a chastisement or something of that sort. That sounds in the nature of a threat. I think, in the present condition of affairs in this country, it is undesirable that that last step should be mentioned.
This, to my mind, is most unsatisfactory and, as there is no opportunity of dealing with it by way of question and answer, I shall raise the matter on the adjournment.
I certainly ask the Deputy not to press that. I think it is most undesirable.
We will deal with that matter after questions. It seems to me that there is nothing which the Deputy can raise on the adjournment.