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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 2 Jul 1931

Vol. 39 No. 11

Public Business. - Vote 18—Secret Service.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £6,500 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1932, chun Seirbhísi Sicréideacha.

That a sum not exceeding £6,500 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Secret Services.

I will read out the amount of the expenditure in the various years since 1922. The following are the amounts:

For the year

£

1922-23

118,762

1923-24

39,236

1924-25

19,665

1925-26

8,999

1926-27

2,970

1927-28

6,649

1928-29

5,570

1929-30

2,410

1930-31 (approximately)

2,650

We all realise that the Government must have some fund of this sort, a Secret Service Fund, that we cannot know exactly how it is spent, but we are pretty certain over here on these benches that it is spent in a way in which it should not be spent, that is in the employment of agents-provocateur. When I mentioned this matter before, the Minister denied that he was using it in that way, but when I mentioned that one of these people had declared on oath that he had organised raids while in the employment of the Government, the Minister did not say any more. Since then we have had another case. As long as this money is suspected of being used for such a purpose we are going to object to it. I expect the Minister is not going to tell us how the money is being spent but I suggest that a certain portion of it is being spent in that way. We are going to vote against it.

The difficulty of course, in regard to this particular Vote is that one has no way of knowing what the money is spent on. I would ask the Minister whether it is out of this fund that the kind of person who is sent along as a bodyguard to save the President when he goes to places like Naas, is paid. On the occasion I refer to, those people acted with such activity that they beat anybody who asked questions at the meeting in Naas on June 21st. They beat not only the people who asked questions, but some of their own supporters. On one occasion some enterprising member of the force put a revolver to the chest of a girl and told her to repeat what she had said. I do not know whether those people are paid out of that fund or not. I think it is only right that the matter should be mentioned. It would be far better to have no fund of that sort than to have the public savaged in that way by irresponsible persons paid out of that fund.

The second matter is whether that fund can be used for the purpose, say, of paying compensation money to people who may have been damnified under the order given originally by the Minister for Defence for stopping trains to Bodenstown. Perhaps the Minister will tell us whether it is intended to use that money for the purpose of compensating the railway company or other persons for the losses sustained, and, if so, what authority he would be acting under for doing so.

Would the Minister be entitled to use this secret service fund, or has he used it, for the purpose of indemnifying officers of the law who have grossly exceeded their functions and have been held liable in damages of a civil kind for wrongful and illegal arrest? Would he be entitled to use this money for the purpose of indemnifying perfectly good Civic Guards who, according to the Minister for Justice, remained perfectly good Civic Guards but who have committed forty physical assaults upon members of the public? Would he be entitled to use it for the purpose of paying the fines of perfectly good peace commissioners who go out into the fairs and knock the teeth down the throats of perfectly good ordinary citizens? Are there any limits for the purpose for which this fund can be used, and if there are limits would the Minister tell us what the limits are?

[An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.]

One of the reasons why we object to this Vote is because we have already had an admission from a responsible officer in charge of the Criminal Investigation Department that an unfortunate man who was found murdered in the neighbourhood of Dublin some months ago had been for a considerable time in the pay of the Secret Service. While he was in the pay of the Secret Service he was pretending to be a member of what the Minister and the Minister for Justice and other members of the Executive Council have referred to in this House from time to time as a murder gang, an illegal organisation or society to subvert the State. He was not only a member of that organisation, but he enjoyed a certain prominence and influence in it. I have no doubt that while he was a member of that organisation he was guilty of inciting other members of that organisation to acts for which some of them were afterwards apprehended. The information which has been conveyed to me is that one of the prisoners who were recently on hunger strike was brought to trial and sentenced and imprisoned because of an explosive machine which had been given to him by this unfortunate man.

The Minister for Justice, when this matter was raised in the House, was emphatic and unmeasured in the denunciatory language which he employed in relation to the man who was then on huger strike. He was equally emphatic and unmeasured in his condemnation of the Fianna Fáil Party because they had endorsed a question which had been put in this House in relation to that particular hunger strike, but the association between the Minister for Justice and the Executive Council with these acts of unrest in the country, with these incidents with which from time to time the Executive Council endeavour to terrorise and intimidate the people of this country into continuing to support the present Government and its policy—the association between the Executive Council and this organisation—is very much closer and very much more intimate than the association of Fianna Fáil with that organisation.

It is quite true that we are Republicans as they are, that we are out to achieve the establishment of the independence of this country. We are out to establish that independence under a Republican form of Government, but I do not think that there are any members of the Fianna Fáil organisation who at the same time are members of that association which the Minister and those who are associated with him so bitterly condemn. Certainly no member of the Fianna Fáil organisation is paid out of Fianna Fáil funds to be a member of that organisation. But the Minister and those who are associated with him have paid certain individuals out of public funds to go into that organisation, to incite other members of that organisation to acts of lawlessness for which they are subsequently apprehended, and when the time comes the Minister with a show of virtue and with a pretended zeal for law and order seizes the opportunity of associating us with those acts. I think it is time that the Minister and those associated with him should stop playing the double game in this country. If they are really in earnest in wanting to preserve peace and order in this country they ought not any longer to subvent, as they are doing by means of a Secret Service Vote, people to go into that organisation and to endeavour to stir it up and keep it active.

As this is a Secret Service Vote I do not propose to discuss either the purpose or the expenditure of the Vote. I just say this one thing with reference to what has been said that it is not only justifiable but it is the duty of a Government when there is illegal armed associations in the country to endeavour to obtain information from inside about the affairs, the plans and the proceedings of that association. I just say, on the other hand, that it would be wrong for the Government to cause anybody to go into that association as an agent-provocateur or to urge on illegal acts on the part of the association. There is quite a distinction between obtaining information and remaining inside for the purpose of obtaining information and going into or remaining inside for the purpose causing illegal acts to be done.

Will the Minister deny that that has been done?

The Government has never stood for that.

Mr. Boland

A man swore that it was done in the Harling case. And there is a man in Mountjoy who is the victim of one of these men. How can the Minister deny that?

I ask the Minister again whether any of the matters I mentioned are paid out of this fund. Are the moneys used in that way?

This is a Secret Service Vote, and if I answer one question I may answer another. There may be a process of elimination. Generally I do not propose to discuss that expenditure in detail or its purpose.

May I ask the Minister are these secret service funds used for political meetings or political purposes, or are they paid to people for political meetings such as the meeting at Naas?

No. They are used solely for the purpose of protecting the State.

Will the Minister state whether any part of these moneys are paid to persons whom he has induced possibly to enter into other political organisations in the State?

We do not consider Fianna Fáil dangerous in that sense.

Would the Minister explain the jump in 1927 if that is not the case?

Vote put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 60; Níl, 47.

  • Aird, William P.
  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Bourke, Séamus A.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Byrne, John Joseph.
  • Carey, Edmund.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Connolly, Michael P.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Craig, Sir James.
  • Crowley, James.
  • Daly, John.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • De Loughrey, Peter.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Egan, Barry M.
  • Finlay, Thomas A.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Hennigan, John.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Kelly, Patrick Michael.
  • Leonard, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • Nolan, John Thomas.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Shaw, Patrick W.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • White, Vincent Joseph.
  • Wolfe, George.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Broderick, Henry.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Clery, Michael.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Flinn, Hugo.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Kent, William R.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán. F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Kelly, Seán T.
  • O'Leary, William.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Tá, Deputies Duggan and P. S. Doyle; Níl, Deputies G. Boland and Killilea.
Motion declared carried.
Progress reported.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 3rd July.
Barr
Roinn