The House having decided at the behest of the President and of the Minister for Industry and Commerce that its own private convenience and the private personal convenience of Deputies must be put above the consideration of the public welfare——
Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1931—Report Stage.
Question proposed: That the Bill be received for final consideration.
On a point of order. This Bill is now in the Fourth Stage. No amendments were made to the Bill in Committee. The Bill is therefore exactly as it was discussed on the Second Reading and passed. Is there any room for discussion on it now?
There is certainly no room for a discussion on the motion which has just been decided. That is what Deputy MacEntee seems to be proposing to carry on.
No.
All that the Deputy has already stated has relation to the motion which has just been passed. The practice is that on the Second Stage of a Bill a Deputy can discuss what is in the Bill and what he would like to see in the Bill. He can go into details on Committee, and on the Report Stage he can discuss what has been done in Committee. In this instance nothing has been done in Committee and therefore there is no room for a discussion. On the Fifth Stage we discuss what is in the Bill.
Do I understand that the House having done nothing to the Bill in Committee, not having cured its imperfections but having decided without having heard one of the parties to this issue, having heard only the accuser who has in his possession the proof and the documents that would vindicate not only the late Managing Director of the Board but also the former Chairman of the Board as well as the part-time members who are associated with them——
Will the Deputy deal first with the point of order?
The point the Chair has put to me is that the House having manifestly failed to do its duty——
The Deputy must not criticise the decision of the House. There is no room for a discussion on the Fourth Stage of this Bill. On the Fifth Stage there is a certain scope for discussion but no amendment having been made in Committee it is difficult to know what can be said on the Fourth Stage except by way of relevant amendments.
Surely the purpose of the Minister is to prevent an opportunity being given to put down amendments. The Minister did not desire that the House having done nothing to amend the Bill in Committee, should mend its hand on Report. I would like, having elicited that fact to have it on record that if we are not in a position to discuss this Bill on the Report Stage it is because of the action of the President and the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
Assisted by a majority.
Exactly.
A majority of thirty-five.
Yes, with the Labour Party.
I would be prepared to relax the rules about notice of amendments in the circumstances. The Deputy may be in a certain difficulty about a discussion on the Fourth Stage of the Bill, but he will have an opportunity on the Fifth Stage. The only opportunity arising on the Fourth Stage is an opportunity for offering amendments and there are no amendments.
I do not ask you to agree with me, but I put it to you that it would be quite impossible to table amendments on the Report Stage of a Bill of such far-reaching importance as this Bill which departs largely from the principle of the original Act. This is a Bill which makes the Electricity Supply Board much more dependent on the Minister and which brings it more under his control than it originally was. It would be impossible to table amendments and I am not prepared, without due consideration, to suggest amendments. In view of that, of course, it is not possible to have any reasonable discussion on the Report Stage of the Bill. I will admit that. I do not know whether the President or the Minister is the driving force in this matter at the moment.
I am perfectly certain the President does not want to rush a measure of this importance through all its stages. If he is prepared to give us an opportunity upon another day for a discussion on the Fifth Stage, I will be prepared to allow the Fourth Stage to go through now.
The Deputy invites me to meet him in regard to leaving the Fifth Stage over until to-morrow. If I had a definite understanding that the Bill would be passed to-morrow, I would be prepared to accommodate the Deputy in that respect, but only on that condition.
Is there any objection to the House reassembling on Tuesday next?
Yes. It has been put to me by quite a number of Deputies who are concerned with agriculture and other matters that they have an objection to coming here after this week.
Originally this scheme was supposed to be a benefit to agriculture.
Does the President accept it that the private business of Deputies is of much more importance than the business of the Oireachtas?
That is a matter that I carefully considered before I made any decision upon this question. The fact of the matter is that the House has decided that it is prepared to decide this question to-day.
The majority will be prepared to decide anything at any time.
In view of the present feeling in the House, it is difficult for the Chair to make a suggestion. As Deputy MacEntee has pointed out, what does remain in connection with this Bill is an opportunity for a considered statement on the Fifth Stage. I do not think there is any room for discussion on the Fourth Stage, but there is an opportunity for presenting a considered statement on the Fifth Stage. The question as to when the Fourth Stage will be taken has been decided. Of course, if there is any possibility of accommodation it would be much more satisfactory. The Deputy could make a statement on the Fifth Stage which may be taken, as far as I understand the President, to-morrow.
Perhaps the President would decide to adjourn for a couple of hours to give us an opportunity of considering what amendments could be tabled on the Report Stage. It is quite impossible for us to submit any amendments now.
I offered every possible accommodation on this measure. I believed I was met, or almost met, and subsequently it was found that I would not be met. I then offered to-morrow. It was refused and now, when Deputies find themselves in a difficulty, they make all sorts of appeals. They were domination the situation a half an hour ago, and then I found that I could not allow that.
We must not get back to the original point. The House has decided that the Fourth Stage will be taken now and we shall then go on to the Fifth Stage. That is what in practice it amounts to. Deputies could take the Fifth Stage to-morrow and have a considered statement presented on that Stage, or take the Fourth and Fifth Stages to-morrow, postponing the Fourth Stage in order to permit amendments to be submitted. There is not, however, very much scope for amendment.
The House has already decided to take the Fourth Stage to-day.
If we decide not to speak on the Fourth Stage and if we leave over the Fifth Stage until to-morrow, we will have an opportunity of putting in a reasoned amendment against the usual motion, "That the Bill do now pass."
Does the Deputy mean an amendment similar to a Second Stage amendment?
We would submit reasons why we think the Bill should not pass.
The Deputy could not do that. The practice is to take a reasoned amendment on the Second Stage. In regard to the Fifth Stage, Standing Order 97 reads:—
When a Bill shall come forward for final consideration, it shall be moved, "That the Bill do now pass." No amendment, not being merely verbal, shall be made to any Bill on this Stage.
I mean a reasoned amendment to the motion, "That the Bill do now pass."
We never had a reasoned amendment on the Fifth Stage. We have had such amendments on the Second Stage and the Standing Orders provide for them. I would not be prepared to create a precedent by admitting a reasoned amendment on the Fifth Stage.
No doubt we will be out-voted, but we must be taken as opposed to the rushing of this Bill. There is a majority here against us which we have to take cognisance of. There is no question of domination or anything of that kind. We think it is not in the public interest to rush this Bill, and that is the basis of our action. We are being forced by a majority to take this measure in a shorter time than we think it advisable in the interests of the public. There is no use in having another division. We have to accept the situation, but we do it most unwillingly.
Let us understand one another. We could postpone the Fifth Stage until to-morrow, but only on the understanding that the Bill will be finished to-morrow. If that is the understanding I am satisfied.
That depends on the members on your side just as much as the members on ours.
Deputies opposite believe that they ought to speak twice as long and as often as we do. If that is their interpretation with regard to any accommodation that may be offered, I am not prepared to accept it.
Unfortunately, the Ministers are the only persons who will speak and they only speak when they have the last word.
It might be well for the Deputy to take into consideration the amount of time monopolised by his colleagues. They do not afford Deputies on this side of the House much opportunity for discussion.
We always have something to say.
I take it that I am to put the question on the Fourth Stage now—I do not want to damnify Deputies who are making this arrangement—and that an order will then be made for the taking of the Fifth Stage to-morrow.
And that it will be finished to-morrow. That is the understanding. Otherwise I will have to take the Fifth Stage now.
We can have no understanding.
Very good, that settles it. I will have to get the Fifth Stage now.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 80; Níl, 44.
Tá
- Aird, William P.
- Alton, Ernest Henry.
- Anthony, Richard.
- Beckett, James Walter.
- Bennett, George Cecil.
- Blythe, Ernest.
- Bourke, Séamus A.
- Brennan, Michael.
- Brodrick, Seán.
- Byrne, John Joseph.
- Carey, Edmund.
- Clancy, Patrick.
- Cole, John James.
- Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
- Conlon, Martin.
- Connolly, Michael P.
- Corish, Richard.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Craig, Sir James.
- Daly, John.
- Davis, Michael.
- Doherty, Eugene.
- Dolan, James N.
- Doyle, Edward.
- Doyle, Peadar Seán.
- Duggan, Edmund John.
- Dwyer, James.
- Egan, Barry M.
- Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
- Everett, James.
- Fitzgerald, Desmond.
- Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
- Good, John.
- Gorey, Denis J.
- Haslett, Alexander.
- Hassett, John J.
- Heffernan, Michael R.
- Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
- Hennigan, John.
- Henry, Mark.
- Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
- Holohan, Richard.
- Jordan, Michael.
- Keogh, Myles.
- Law, Hugh Alexander.
- Leonard, Patrick.
- Lynch, Finian.
- Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
- McDonogh, Martin.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- Mongan, Joseph W.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, James E.
- Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
- Myles, James Sproule.
- Nally, Martin Michael.
- Nolan, John Thomas.
- O'Connell, Richard.
- O'Connell, Thomas J.
- O'Connor, Bartholomew.
- O'Higgins, Thomas.
- O'Leary, Daniel.
- O'Mahony, The.
- O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
- O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
- Redmond, William Archer.
- Reynolds, Patrick.
- Rice, Vincent.
- Roddy, Martin.
- Shaw, Patrick W.
- Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
- Thrift, William Edward.
- Tierney, Michael.
- Vaughan, Daniel.
- White, John.
- White, Joseph Vincent.
- Wolfe, George.
- Wolfe, Jasper Travers.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Patrick.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Brady, Seán.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Buckley, Daniel.
- Carty, Frank.
- Clery, Michael.
- Colbert, James.
- Corkery, Dan.
- Corry, Martin John.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Fahy, Frank.
- Flinn, Hugo.
- Fogarty, Andrew.
- French, Seán.
- Geoghegan, James.
- Gorry, Patrick J.
- Goulding, John.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Hayes, Seán.
- Jordan, Stephen.
- Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
- Kilroy, Michael.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- Maguire, Ben.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Moore, Séamus.
- O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
- O'Kelly, Seán T.
- O'Leary, William.
- O'Reilly, Thomas.
- Ryan, James.
- Sexton, Martin.
- Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
- Smith, Patrick.
- Tubridy, John.
- Walsh, Richard.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle; Níl, Deputies G. Boland and Allen.
Question declared carried.
When will the Fifth Stage be taken?
To-morrow.
Fifth Stage ordered for to-morrow.