Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Jun 1933

Vol. 48 No. 11

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Local Government and Public Health.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. O'Kelly)

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £529,991 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith infoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Rialtais Aitiúla agus Sláinte Puiblí, maraon le Deontaisí agus Costaisí eile a bhaineann le Tógáil Tithe, Deontaisí d'Udaráis Aitiúla agus Ildeontaisí i gCabhair, agus costaisí áirithe bhaineann le hOispidéil.

That a sum not exceeding £529,991 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health including Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Authorities and Sundry Grants-in-Aid, and certain charges connected with Hospitals.

In connection with this Estimate, there is a net increase of £229,980 as compared with the total provision made for the financial year 1932-33, including the Supplementary Votes of £100,000 for free milk for children of persons in receipt of home assistance, and £140,000 for housing grants. The main increase in the present year's Vote is in respect of grants under the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1932. For this purpose an additional sum of £220,000 is required. The other main increases are in connection with the essential public health services which we desire to see maintained and extended. The reduction in the amount included for child welfare will not involve any curtailment of that service. It has been decided to transfer to the sanitary authorities the administration of the grant for free milk for necessitous children. In the areas where child welfare centres are established, the two services can be readily co-ordinated. In Dublin City there has already been close co-operation between the Child Welfare Committee and the Board of Assistance with beneficial results. On the transfer of the grant to sanitary authorities, free milk may be supplied to children of parents in necessitous circumstances, irrespective of whether they are in receipt of home assistance or not. Any tendency there has been up to the present for persons to seek home assistance with the object of qualifying for the grant of free milk will no longer exist. The grant has been of real benefit to the poor, and I am particularly desirous of seeing it distributed in the manner best suited to their needs.

The available statistics in regard to public health relate to the year 1931. In some respects they are less favourable than those for the year 1930. The number of deaths from typhus increased from four to 11. For typhoid fever, the number of recorded deaths in 1931 was 68, or two less than the previous year. There was a decrease of eight in the three Ulster counties, but this was offset by an increase of six in the Province of Leinster. Typhoid fever is a dangerous disease. Persons who have made a good recovery may continue to be a source of infection to others. The public health services administered through local bodies should, therefore, be directed to the necessary preventive measures by providing pure water supplies, enforcing proper sanitary conditions in populous areas and arranging for adequate supervision over milk supplies. In the past year there was every inducement given to local bodies to carry out essential public health works by the aid of contributions from relief funds, and the response made was encouraging. Fifty-two local authorities prepared schemes to which grants amounting to £130,000 were allocated. Most of the works are still in progress and apart from the lasting advantage which will accrue to public health, the execution of the works at the present time has been the means of affording employment to considerable numbers of men. In the present year, out of funds provided for relief works, we hope to make further grants towards the cost of carrying out essential public health schemes.

As regards the incidence of diphtheria, there has been a decrease of 69 in the number of deaths in 1931, as compared with 1930. The disease was very prevalent in the County Boroughs of Dublin, Cork and Limerick and in the Counties of Tipperary (S.R.), Cork, Galway, Limerick, Louth and Wexford. Immunisation campaigns against the disease have been carried out in Dublin and Cork county boroughs, and in the Counties of Cork, Galway and Wexford. Striking results have already been obtained in reducing the mortality of the disease in Cork City, where 6,436 children had been inoculated with toxin-anti-toxin up to the end of 1931. The number of cases of diphtheria in that year fell from 626 in 1930 to 282 in 1931. It is hoped that equally favourable results will ensue in the other areas where immunisation is being carried out. In Dundalk urban district, where an immunisation scheme was carried out a few years ago with favourable results, there has been an upward tendency in the incidence of the disease. To combat the disease successfully, immunisation schemes must be repeated periodically as the young children grow up. It is better, however, for local bodies to incur the expenditure of preventive measures so as to avoid the heavy toll of sickness connected with the disease and the premature wastage of human life.

The mortality amongst infants for the year 1931 was slightly higher than for the previous year, being 69 per 1,000 as compared with 68 for the previous years. There is also a slight upward tendency in the death rate from tuberculosis, the actual number of deaths from the disease in 1931 being 77 more than in 1930.

The schemes for maternity and child welfare and for the prevention of tuberculosis have been well maintained.

In the case of child welfare there has been a large addition to the number of voluntary associations engaged in this work, due mainly to the provision of funds under the Public Charitable Hospitals Act of 1931 for the training and maintenance of district nurses. Approved schemes for school medical inspection are in operation in the four county boroughs and in 18 counties. In some of the counties the schemes are only in the initial stages and full development is not expected for another year. In the year 1931, which is the latest year for which complete figures are available, the total number of children on the rolls in schools in which schemes were in operation was 331,087 of whom 85,513 were inspected during the year. The principal defects ascertained were:—(a) dental; (b) tonsils and adenoids; and (c) defective vision and other eye defects. The percentage of dental defects was 35.9; of tonsils and adenoids 26.8 and of defective vision 16.9. In the county boroughs the percentage of dental defects is higher than in the rural areas but the incidence of defective nose and throat conditions appears to be higher in children in rural areas. Until more progress has been made in the development of the schemes and statistics are available over a series of years it will not be possible to make reliable comparisons between the health of school children resident in urban and rural areas. In the earlier stages it is to be expected that children requiring urgent treatment obtain priority and the numbers in whom defects have been ascertained may be relatively high to the total number of school children.

School meals in urban areas are in operation in four county boroughs, 35 urban districts and two towns under town commissioners. The average number of children provided daily with school meals during the year ended 31st March, 1932, was 19,225. The total number of meals supplied was 3,261,220 of which 1,580,869 were supplied in Dublin City.

In the areas in the Gaeltacht in which school meals are provided the schemes were in full force in the Counties of Galway, Kerry and Donegal and most of the eligible schools in Mayo. In Cork County the scheme is applied to five of the eight eligible schools. The average attendance at all the eligible schools at which school meals may be supplied was 17,974.

Schemes for the welfare of the blind are in operation in all counties, except Cork and Roscommon and in the County Borough of Limerick, Amended schemes were framed to meet the altered conditions consequent on the passing of the Old Age Pensions Act of 1932 and the local authorities have been requested to deal as sympathetically as possible with the necessitous blind in their area so as to lighten the affliction under which they labour.

I have already alluded to the need for preventive measures to safeguard the public health. Most diseases have their origin and propagation in insanitary conditions and our efforts to uplift the standard of public health will not meet with success unless accompanied by improved housing conditions for the working classes. The provision for grants for the building and reconstruction of houses in the present year's Estimates amounts to £370,000 and there are being made available, by way of loan, sums of £1,000,000 for housing schemes in urban areas, exclusive of the County Boroughs of Dublin and Cork where the local authorities raise funds locally by issues of stock; £500,000 for labourers' cottages, and £200,000 for loans to local bodies making advances under the Small Dwellings Acts.

Up to the end of May the number of houses included in approved schemes of local authorities amounted to 5,010 of which 1,167 had already been completed; 2,975 were in course of construction and 868 about to be commenced. Schemes at present under consideration contemplate the provision of 19,801 additional houses. The number of houses being built by private persons or public utility societies up to end of May was 4,411, of which 2,479 are in urban districts and 1,932 in rural areas.

Of the 23,644 houses included in schemes in progress or in course of preparation by local bodies 11,041 are in urban areas and 12,603 in rural districts. In the urban areas the new houses are almost entirely for the rehousing of persons at present living in slums or condemned houses. Slum clearance orders have been made for a number of unhealthy areas in Dublin City, and also in Dún Laoghaire Borough, Clonmel Borough, Thurles Urban District, and Edenderry Town. Orders are being prepared for the clearance of similar areas in the County Boroughs of Cork, Limerick and Waterford, and preliminary steps have been taken for the clearance of unhealthy areas in a number of the smaller towns. In Dublin and Cork the local authorities are acquiring the clearance areas for rebuilding, but the tendency in the smaller urban areas is to rehouse the slum dwellers on virgin sites.

In Dublin 830 houses are in course of construction. Schemes for the building of 2,051 further houses are well advanced. In Cork a scheme for 252 houses for slum clearance is in progress. The scheme is being carried out adjoining an unhealthy area and when the houses have been built this area will be cleared and acquired for further building. The entire scheme will comprise 600 houses. Schemes for the building of 188 additional houses are in hands.

In Limerick progress has been slow—partly due to the difficulty of obtaining suitable sites within the city boundary. The Corporation have in hands a scheme for the reconstruction of the Castle Barracks into 32 dwellings and they are in negotiation for the acquisition of a site for the building of 257 houses. All these houses will be for the rehousing of persons in slum areas. In Waterford the Corporation have 45 houses in progress and tenders are being invited for 132 houses.

In regard to road administration there has been close co-operation between the Department and the local authorities and the county surveyors. Apart from the carrying out of the works under the usual road fund grants which amounted to about £850,000, additional works under the million road grant were undertaken by county councils at a cost of about £600,000, the balance of the grant being allocated to the urban areas. A substantial portion of the money allotted to county councils under the special relief scheme was expended on the strengthening, re-grading and widening as well as the re-surfacing of country roads.

The usual 40 per cent. grant to county councils towards the cost of upkeep of main roads is being provided in the present year. This grant will amount to, approximately, £350,000, while a sum of £500,000 will be available for improvement works.

The estimates for county councils for the repair and maintenance of roads in the present year show a slight decrease in respect of main roads, and a slight increase in respect of county roads. The net amount to be provided after allowing for the grant towards the upkeep of main roads is estimated at £1,163,500 or a sum of approximately £11,000 in excess of the amount provided in the previous year. Increased attention is being given by councils to the surface dressing of county roads. Last year 15 counties provided for surface dressing of 282 miles of county roads at a cost of £33,623. In this year 19 counties are providing similar treatment to 381 miles of county roads at a cost of £60,870. The counties where no provision is made under this head are Galway, Kerry, Leitrim. Mayo, Tipperary N.R., Wexford and Wicklow. The provision for the surface dressing of main roads in the present year is in respect of 1,633 miles at a cost of £225,245 as against 1,877 miles in the previous year at a cost of £269,114.

General Mulcahy

In considering the importance of the matters that have been dealt with and all that lies behind them, the most important thing in connection with the very important work of local government at the present time is the matter of the general relations between the Ministry and local bodies. In the beginning of the year, when the Estimates were produced, it was pointed out here that there was implied in the Estimates that the central Government here was proposing to shed on to the shoulders of local bodies large burdens and, in the very beginning of the year, local bodies were allowed to face their responsibilities and to face the examination of the work they would have to do and the moneys they would have to raise, unaware that they were going to receive from the Minister for Local Government £448,000 less in relief of rates on agricultural lands than they got last year. So that local bodies, in a very difficult period, find themselves starting out on their year's work with the whole financial outlook on their work rather messed up and the whole spirit between, particularly, county councils and the Ministry soured and with full co-operation endangered. We have the Ministerial Press, writing on the 27th of June, regarding certain county councils and representations they have made to the Ministry and actions they had taken, and charging these bodies with sheer obstructionism. Local bodies, particularly county councils, derive a very large amount of money from the ratepayers in rural areas. The Minister is aware that general world conditions are such that there is an International Conference sitting in London and the main object that they seem to have in front of them is to bring about a better state of prices in respect of primary products. When we see what some of the principal writers and some of the principal speakers have to say on this matter, they seem to think that it would be a most desirable thing and would certainly be the crowning of their efforts at the present moment if, in respect of the main and primary products, they could restore world prices to the level of prices in 1930. That is a rather meagre hope as far as we can see at the present moment, and certainly, comparing 1930 prices with prices for a few years before that, a rather meagre result considering the amount of effort they are prepared to put into it.

The position here is that we are dependent on the prices of agricultural produce for a very considerable amount of our income and, when we look at the 1930 prices that we are offered as a kind of hope that with a certain amount of work we might get back to, and comparing that price with the prices of to-day, we are impressed by a very striking fact, that in the first five months of 1930 the value of our cattle reaching the British market was £5,750,000 and that in the first five months of this year the value of our cattle reaching the British market was £2,250,000. The total rates raised by our county councils particularly, but practically by all our rating bodies outside Dublin, is £3,000,000. So that the difference in receipts as between the cattle prices to-day in the British market and those in 1930 for the first five months of this year and the first five months of 1930 would pay the whole cost of our local government so far as the cost is borne on the rates outside the City of Dublin.

It is in circumstances like that they are accepting responsibility for carrying on the work of county councils. They find themselves in the beginning of this year, first touching how they are going to carry out their work and what rate they will have to strike to get the necessary amount of money from the ratepayers and then finding themselves entirely and unexpectedly deprived of £500,000. On top of that, they find the whole spirit of local government brought to this, that added to that irritation on the part of local bodies, the Minister is now charging a lot of them, through his press, with sheer obstructionism. On top of that again, we have Ministerial pronouncements putting down on local bodies tremendous other general responsibilities of which, I am sure, none of them were aware until these Ministerial pronouncements were made. For instance, down on top of the administration of all these matters the Minister speaks about local bodies and we are told to-day that an enormous amount can be done by local councils to win this economic war. We are told by the President, in a speech made in connection with the local elections in the City of Dublin, and reported on the 24th of this month, that, in connection with the war our ability to make more rapid progress will be determined to no small extent by the results of these municipal elections. In fairness to local bodies, now at the beginning of their year's administration, because they are only practically launched on it now, if there are things that local bodies can do to assist this country out of its difficulties at the present moment, I think, if there is not going to be further misunderstanding and further friction as between the Ministry and local bodies, they ought to be told more explicitly what are the things that they can do to help this country in the difficulties that are mentioned there.

Again, there is the very great necessity of developing this country industrially. Local bodies also have been addressed recently in connection with this matter. For instance, speaking in Kilkenny, where the President received the freedom of the city, he is reported in the Press of the 25th of June as addressing the citizens of the City of Kilkenny with regard to the industrialisation of our towns. The President said:—

"In a few years we shall have all the factories in hand and the towns that neglect their opportunities now will find it is too late for them to enter the industrial field."

Coupled with that, we have a statement issued on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party, again in connection with the local elections in Dublin. The statement is to this effect:—

"In other cities and towns Fianna Fáil councils and mayors, working in co-operation with the Departments of State, are offering facilities and advantages to industrialists to erect or extend their factories. Already many firms which might have erected factories in Dublin have been induced to go elsewhere."

Now, if urban authorities have powers that will enable them to induce manufacturers to come in and set up and develop industry in a more diffused way throughout the country, then many local bodies are utterly unaware of what these powers are. We ought to hear from the Minister, if there is this very great and important part that urban authorities can play in the present scheme of industrial development in the country, what that part is, and we ought to be fully informed here as to what the powers of these urban authorities are. The House, I am sure, would be glad and local authorities would be glad to get some examples from the Minister as to what has been done in those urban areas referred to which enabled them to get industries started. The Minister for Finance in his Budget speech said:—

"While the Government is not yet in a position to announce detailed proposals in regard to the provision of maintenance, the way can be seen clear to permit of the introduction of a measure to deal with this problem before the close of the present calendar year. The new proposals will go far to relieve the local authorities of burdens which many of them now find onerous and will properly organise and fairly distribute the duty and responsibility of providing assistance for the unemployed. In order to initiate them, however, a considerable sum, amounting to £450,000 net, will be required. We propose, as I have indicated, to launch the scheme and to provide for this initial expenditure this year."

I have been informed that one county council, at least, had occasion to summon its officials on Friday and point out to them that it had not been able to get accommodation from the bank, that it was not in a position to spend more money at the moment and that employment would have to cease. If my information is correct, the Minister cannot complain that a majority of the county councils in question are unfriendly or opposed to the present Government. People who talk in terms of Cumann na nGaedheal and Fianna Fail would call it a "Fianna Fáil County Council." The Minister may have more definite information than I have about that case but he knows what the general situation is. I ask the Minister to tell us, for the information of those councils, what exactly he proposes to do with the £450,000 which, it has been stated, will go far to relieve local authorities of burdens which many of them now find onerous. All the local authorities are up against a very serious situation. They fear they have been forced to strike rates which are above the capacity of the ratepayer to pay. They now find themselves burdened with additional, wide responsibilities and it is suggested that they have wide powers which a number of them never heard of before. They are all interested in serving the country in any way they can and they are all anxious to get the country out of the difficulties that the economic war has brought upon it. They are anxious to serve in the development of industry and they would be very glad to know exactly what burdens the Ministry are going to take on their shoulders when the plan for spending £450,000 is brought forward. The Minister started off the year very badly. It would help him to make amends and to improve the spirit of administration between himself and the local bodies for the rest of the year if he could make clearer to them what responsibilities are supposed to lie upon them arising out of the general statements to which I have referred.

Mr. Minch

I had not the privilege of hearing the whole of the Minister's statement but I listened carefully to that portion which referred to housing and, particularly, to slums. I am sure the Minister is aware of a problem which is presenting itself in the case of those urban councils which embarked on large housing schemes. These houses were built to relieve the slums and the problem is how to get the people in the slums to move into the new houses. The great deterrent is the rent. In many of the laneways in our country towns, rents of 9d. and 1/3 are charged for what I admit are most unhygienic and scandalous houses. The wages these people can earn are so bad that they cannot, in present circumstances, be got to move into the new houses. It would take the crowbar to induce them to do it. In a certain town in Kildare, a housing scheme was completed but very few of the local people occupied the new houses. The occupants came from Northern Ireland and other parts of the country. They were either pensioners or persons with guaranteed weekly incomes. Some of them stayed for a time and then passed on to other places. There is great danger in over-building, in the excitement of the moment, without care being taken that the houses will be used for the purpose for which they are being built—to relieve the people living in bad conditions. But how are you going to reconcile a rent of 1/3 or 1/6 with a rent of 4/6 per week? I do not know how it is to be done.

There is only one way to help and that is by the starting of industries in the country towns instead of in the city. I was interested in reading the speech of the President at Kilkenny, to which Deputy Mulcahy has referred. To start new industries in the country, we would require a brain trust. Those in commercial life who possess capital and who are anxious to start industry in country towns come up against a wall right away. There is no article the production of which at the moment could, with the existing demand, be economically undertaken in these centres. The purchasing power of the people has been greatly reduced.

Secondly, the conditions of world commerce now demand and insist that anything in the form of new factories or new industries must be at the ports, or in cities near the landing of raw material, or the best point of distribution. The question of building new houses, being able to pay rent for them, and give employment will considerably depend on the rejuvenation and resurgence of the country towns, which at the present moment are, to use a mild word, in a state of decay. On numerous occasions I have sought information, and others have sought information, looked for advice, and been ready to act on and investigate suggestions with a view to having industries started if possible. There is no county, I should think, that is worse off or more in need of industry than the County Kildare. You have Newbridge, Naas, Monasterevan, Celbridge, Athy and several large villages in which unemployment and depressed conditions are eating into every house and home. One would think that, with local labour available and local sites easily obtainable, the question of establishing industries, whether it be in a small way or in a large way——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is this Minister responsible for the starting of local industries?

Mr. Minch

No, sir, but I am trying to bring forward the fact that the solution of the rates and the question of paying rent for new houses are now, in view of the bad conditions of agriculture, greatly dependent on the starting of new industries.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister who is responsible, as far as I know, for industrial development, so far as it can be done by a Government, is the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and it is on his Estimate that the Deputy should have made this statement.

Mr. Minch

I respectfully submit to your ruling on the matter. At the present moment when local authorities assemble, or shortly before they assemble, they receive most voluminous correspondence, agenda, rules, regulations, new legislation, and highly specialised work, which are constantly being added to, with the result that when quarterly meetings are convened it would take a county councillor with a secretariat to know his job in such a way as to be able to administer it properly.

I believe, and am honestly convinced from the little experience I may have had, that we are surely about to face the time when the local authorities will be incapable of administering the enormous responsibilities which are now being thrown on them. The staffs, whether the general secretary's or the county surveyor's or other office staffs, are at the present moment faced with a huge amount of highly specialised work, involving a tremendous amount of concentration and huge sums of money. Each year the work is increasing, with the result that the members of county councils, who naturally have not got the specialised knowledge, must be almost entirely in the hands of the professional and trained permanent staffs. Hence it is that sooner or later some new method of running local administration will have to be adopted. It is only honest and fair to state that there are very few county councillors to-day who have the knowledge necessary to administer the extra legislation which they are faced with. Two-thirds of the county councillors are not able and could not be asked to give a deliberate and timely opinion on many of the problems that come up for solution, by reason of their ramifications and the multitude of those problems. Some people suggest that local authorities should be smaller in number. I do not think that it would make any difference. There is a suggestion that it would be better to have a manager, with about five or six members on a county council, the manager to administer and the five or six others to be responsible for policy. At the present moment I am quite satisfied that those in this House who are members of local authorities, or members of county councils, are not and could not be in a position to control in a business-like and commercial way the work which they should control if they had the time, and if its volume were not so enormous.

I do not wish to delay this House on that matter any further, except to say that the work involved in the local administration of counties has developed so rapidly that sooner or later it will become so top heavy that local administration must suffer, and it cannot be said to be the fault of the local authorities. At each meeting there is a new rule or regulation, or some new order, with the result that the work suffers. It is almost a whole-time job now. It is not a question of being able to seek out the weak points or develop the strong ones. Everybody, as far as I can see, is to a large extent groping in the dark until the meeting is nearly two-thirds on the way. Then they begin to wake up to what it is all about. It is not their fault. It is due to the fact that they have too much to do, and by degrees the central authority is sinking more and more, until, as I said before, the time will come when the whole local authority will collapse, purely because there is too much business to be done in the short time at their disposal.

Mr. T.J. Murphy

On more than one occasion when this Vote formerly came up for discussion I drew the attention of the Minister to the need for a drastic reform in connection with county homes all over the country. My experience of some institutions of that kind is that the buildings are very unsatisfactory, the whole surroundings are very cheerless and desolate, and the amount of comfort that people who are unfortunate enough to end their days in institutions of that kind are able to get within the walls is very little indeed. A very valuable experiment was made in another part of the county from which I come. The Local Government Department has actively interested itself with the North Cork Board of Health in having a mansion in the locality taken over under the control of a religious order and the inmates of the county home are boarded out with that religious order. I suggest to the Minister that that is a policy that might be strongly pressed on local authorities whom, I am sure, he will find quite willing to listen to his advice.

I desire to make particular reference to the conditions in West Cork where, as the Minister will be able to ascertain from the inspector, overcrowding and unsatisfactory conditions prevail to an alarming extent. In West Cork there is an opportunity of moving along the lines followed by the North Cork Board of Health and I suggest that the Minister should, as far as possible, use his influence for the purpose of enabling similar provision to be made in that area. The conditions are so bad in the county home in Clonakilty that beds have to be provided on the floors. The whole position, as I know from personal experience, is very unsatisfactory. I do not want to advertise the matter unduly. I merely mention it because I think the Minister will be very sympathetic and I believe his Department also will be sympathetic. I appeal to him to indicate to local authorities generally his earnest desire that a movement of the kind so successfully initiated in North Cork and so likely to turn out successfully should be more generally adopted all over the country.

I would like the Minister, so far as it is possible to have it done, to have decisions on applications for reconstruction grants expedited. We are steadily moving towards the end of the summer and the Minister is well aware that it will be almost impossible to have work of that kind carried out in a satisfactory manner when we get into the short days and the bad weather. I want to enlist the Minister's sympathy in respect of the peculiar difficulty experienced by the Cork County Council in relation to the housing question. The Cork County Council is one of the few local authorities in the Saorstát that adopted, year after year since 1924, as successive Housing Acts were passed here, schemes to provide loans for individuals who obtained State grants for the erection of houses. The amount of the loans was invariably equal to the amount of the grants. Loans were issued to small farmers, artisans and other industrious people who had a little capital of their own and these loans enabled them to bear the cost of erection of houses. The repayments were made yearly or half-yearly and usually they worked out at far less than the rent of the house ordinarily would be. Then after a period of years they would be free of all liability.

There was no provision to enable the county council to adopt a scheme of that kind under the last Housing Act. Of course the county council had the alternative of adopting the Small Dwellings Act. They decided to do that, but then they discovered that the legal difficulties and the long delay connected with searches in regard to title, et cetera, would practically nullify their efforts to come to the assistance of individuals requiring loans. One could hardly ask for any change in policy in that connection where the loan required would be £700 or £800, but in the case of the Cork County Council the loans as a rule do not exceed £150. Usually the type of house erected will cost about £300 and a loan of £150 plus the State grant enables a person to erect a satisfactory dwelling. In most cases the average amount applied for is £60 or £70. In the case of a person applying for a loan of that sort the delay that I have mentioned is a big factor and, besides, the legal expenses, including searches for title and the arrangement of mortgages and other work of that kind, form a very important consideration. All these formalities have to be gone through if the letter of the law is to be strictly adhered to. The whole thing presents a difficulty from the financial point of view as well as from the point of view of getting speedy results. I hope the Minister will examine the position and, if possible, permit the Council to continue their loan scheme to individuals on the security of two solvent persons who would be accepted after the fullest possible investigation as suitable sureties. If there are any administrative difficulties, I hope the Minister will have them smoothed out as soon as possible.

In another matter also I think the Minister may be able to help local authorities considerably. Local authorities are engaged in promoting schemes for the erection of labourers' cottages. In one part of my constituency there is a derelict workhouse building with five or six acres of land attached. In the case of Castletownbere there is a plot of five or six acres attached to the derelict workhouse premises. These premises have been abandoned by the board of assistance. I suggest the Minister should accede to the demand of the board of assistance, conveyed through the board of health, that these lands might be made available for the purpose of erecting labourers' cottages. I think the proposal is a very reasonable one. In that district practically all the landholders have very small holdings. There will be great difficulty in obtaining suitable land unless there are protracted negotiations and, perhaps, a prolonged public inquiry which, no doubt, will be necessary if the compulsory powers in the Act are to be exercised. The land I have referred to is quite close to the town and it is very suitable for the erection of cottages. The Minister knows as well as I do that labourers' cottages erected close to a town are more likely to attract good tenants and are a more attractive proposition than cottages that have to be erected, for want of a suitable site, in remote places where the prospects of employment are not so good and where the land is not so valuable.

Another matter I would again like to draw the Minister's attention to is the need for putting forward a fairly general scheme for the improvement of secondary roads in the country. The first-class, or trunk roads, are in excellent condition at the present time and are a credit to the whole country. Last year the Minister made certain sums available out of the relief grants, or the Road Fund, for the improvement of secondary roads here and there. But in order to relieve unemployment there was no very definite stand taken and with certain sums of money inadequate in themselves the local authorities had to be content. It was a patchwork scheme. Now I suggest to the Minister that it would be good business to come to the improvement of the secondary roads, and to set aside a certain sum of money for a scheme to be worked in co-ordination with the local authorities.

I am at a loss to understand the reasons which actuated the county surveyors in slackening off the maintenance work on the roads. Large gangs of men, in my own county, are unemployed at the moment and the difficulty of the position seems to be intensified, because during the last ten or twelve months lots of people, who were always employed elsewhere, came to work on the roads. The county surveyors are keeping back the money for maintenance work, and slacking off the work that could be done at this time of the year. The Minister may not be aware of it, but it is a fact, that a good many people have left employment on the land because of the poor wages and came to work on the roads. While I can understand the difficulties of such people I appreciate the fact that many people who, for years had no employment except what they received on the roads, are very discontented because of what is happening in that direction.

I hope it is not out of order on this Vote, also, to refer to the action taken by the Minister for Industry and Commerce after, I presume, consultation with the Minister for Local Government and Public Health in regard to employment on the roads. I do not know whether I am interpreting properly the circular that was issued, but according to the circular issued to the county surveyors as to the recruitment of men for work on the roads the policy appears to be—and I take it the Department of Local Government was consulted—that the recruiting of labour must be through the labour exchanges. I have no particular objection to that, but I think the Minister might take more adequate precautions to see that people who have given their whole lives to work on the roads and, perhaps, who are not fit for other employment, should not be pushed aside at the present moment. While, as I say, I have no objection to recruitment through the labour exchanges, I think the Minister ought to make sure that there is set up in connection with that system some kind of local machinery that will enable the best results to be obtained and that will overcome any strange anomalies that have arisen in connection with the recruitment of men for road work That practically exhausts the items I am desirous of bringing to the notice of the Minister. I hope I have not mentioned too many things.

There is one other item that must have struck all of us who are members of local authorities, that is, the alarming increase, consequent upon the general poverty of the country, in the number of people who have to seek home assistance. I think all of us with experience of local authorities should know what has happened in the last few years to many decent people who have been compelled to seek home assistance. If we never had a case of that kind brought to our notice we know generally the humiliation and degradation that people forced into that position have to endure. I have seen in the last few months, and I take it that members of local authorities all over the country have the same experience, a very large number of people thrown on the world owing to the death of the breadwinner of the family. I do not know whether it is quite right, technically speaking, to mention the matter here on this Vote, but I hope I am in order in asking the Minister to expedite the consideration by his Department of the report of the committee set up to inquire into the question of pensions for widows and to take what action he considers necessary, arising out of that report, at the earliest possible date.

Mr. Anthony

The present Minister for Local Government and Public Health has always manifested a keen interest in such matters as drainage and sewerage schemes. When he was in opposition he was a strong advocate of these schemes, and since he became a Minister, he has always been a great advocate of them. That is one of the bouquets I want to throw at him at the moment. I want, therefore, to draw the Minister's attention to a very serious state of affairs that exists in my constituency. In the village of Blarney, which is fairly thickly populated, having a relatively large industrial population of somewhere about 900, they are still without a proper or adequate sewerage scheme. The County Medical Officer of Health, Dr. Condy, who is regarded as a very high authority on sanitation, and sanitary science generally, has made a very comprehensive and detailed report to the County Board of Health in Cork County, in the course of which he pointed out that in a village of the dimensions and population of Blarney a proper sewerage scheme was necessary. I do not propose to read his report, but only to give one or two excerpts from it.

The report deals, amongst other things, with the drains which can be regularly flushed by tank water by means of stop cocks and discharged into open channels in an adjoining field. He points out the dangers arising from the rather primitive system that obtains there. In his report, which I am sure is in the Minister's office, he makes certain recommendations, and he points out that if the present system is allowed to continue it will prove a danger to the public health. It was estimated by the local engineer in a report to the local authority that, for the construction of a proper sewerage scheme in Blarney, a sum in the neighbourhood of £5,000 or £6,000 would be required. The county board of health voted a sum of £2,600 to meet the expenses of that particular scheme, the area of charge being the Cork Rural District. Subsequent to the voting of the money a further report was received from the engineer and the gem of his report was to this effect, that if the local authority in conjunction with the Local Government Department undertook a sewerage scheme in Blarney one of the immediate effects would be the spoiling of the view from Blarney Castle. If I am to take it that that is the view that carries most weight with the Department I must be mistaken in my estimate of the Minister for Local Government. I feel sure that if the Minister had his way his first consideration would be for the health of the residents of the district. Of course, the Minister may reply that the local authority should supply at least about 50 per cent. of the cost of the scheme.

Mr. O'Kelly

Seventy per cent.

Mr. Anthony

They have already agreed to contribute £2,600 towards the cost. In the present state of affairs with which the Minister is fully conversant, I suggest that the health of the people of the area should be his first consideration. In view of the circumstances, the local authority are not prepared to advance beyond £2,600. I should like to congratulate the Minister and his Department on the wisdom shown in increasing under sub-head K.1 the grants for child welfare and school medical treatment to the extent of £1,000. I would impress upon the Minister the urgent necessity of seeing that the towns and villages, in connection with which provision has been made by the local authorities to some extent, are adequately provided with the ordinary amenities requisite in civilised life in the shape of proper sanitary accommodation.

There is another matter which comes under the ægis of the Minister for Local Government, namely, the administration of old age and blind pensions. On two or three occasions I pointed out in this House that many artisans, craftsmen, and ordinary labourers, perhaps, make some kind of provision for their old age by way of weekly contribution to their trade union. Because of their providence in that direction they are penalised. If a person attached to a trade union makes provision for old age by way of superannuation there is a corresponding reduction made in the pension paid to him. If a man makes provision through his trade union for the payment of superannuation to him at the rate of 15/- per week he only gets 1/- per week old age pension. That is a matter which should be looked into by the Minister.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Dr. Ward)

May I point out that that is not a matter of administration? As the law stands at present, such provision as a person may make for a pension must be taken into consideration when estimating means. As the old age pensions law stands, the Minister has no alternative. It would require an amendment of the law, and it is scarcely in order now on this Estimate to advocate amendment of the law.

Mr. Anthony

I can talk about what is provided for in the Estimate. I suggest that this matter is of very serious consequence to thousands of people. I may point out that provision has already been made by which a farmer, who might have £500 or £600, may assign his farm to his son and obtain an old age pension, while no provision is made for the humbler people in the cities or towns.

Dr. Ward

We cannot change that without legislation.

Mr. Anthony

I would ask the Minister if it would not be possible for him in future legislation to provide for the things I have suggested.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows it is not permissible to discuss Acts passed by the Oireachtas or future legislation in discussing the Estimates.

Mr. Anthony

At the same time, I think we are entitled to suggest things without actually asking for them.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not endeavour to circumvent the rules of procedure.

Mr. Anthony

I should also like to point out to the Minister that very considerable delay occurs between the time a person is awarded a pension and the time a pension is paid. I have particulars of dozens of cases of applicants for old age and blind pensions whose cases were decided as long ago as last December and who have not yet got their pensions. I suggest that the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary should expedite these cases. I am aware that since the passing of the Act making it possible to secure a blind pension at 30 the work of the Department must have been multiplied tenfold. At the same time, it must be obvious to any Deputy who has had to do with these cases that there is considerable delay in dealing with them. Even when decisions are reached, we find in many cases that the person awarded the pension gets about half of the money to which he is entitled. I will give an instance that came under my notice, where a pensioner was awarded 10/- weekly, payable from last December, but only £5 10s. was paid him, leaving a good sum due. Could the Minister arrange when making payments of that kind to pay the full amount due, so that many of us who are brought into daily contact with pensioners would not have to be writing letters to the Department, and, in some cases, visiting the Department on their behalf? If so, it would considerably facilitate our business here.

In regard to blind pensions, many persons have had to give up their usual occupations because of disability on account of their eye-sight. The degree of blindness required by the Department may or may not be the right degree. I have come across cases where persons who applied for blind pensions were unable to follow their usual occupations, because of their disability, but they were not awarded pensions because they had not the degree of blindness required by the Department. As the Parliamentary Secretary is an authority on these matters, I would like to hear what he has to say.

In relation to the administration of old age pensions, it would be well if the Department would place at the disposal of local officers some fuller information than they have or that they are prepared to give the applicant. My experience is that when some pensions are awarded there is considerable delay about paying them. The local officers say they are not responsible and that the matter should be taken up with the Department in Dublin. I suggest that some fuller authority should be vested in local pensions officers, in so far as it relates to pensions that have been awarded. I suggest to the Minister and to the Parliamentary Secretary that they should treat with consideration the type of cases I have referred to.

Mr. Dockrell

There are numbers of housing schemes proceeding throughout the country, some of them being finished daily and the houses being occupied. I want to refer to the type of grate that is being put into these houses. I think I am correct in saying that the grates being put in are ones suitable for burning coal. The Government has recently made proposals regarding the burning of turf. If they do not wish to be accused of inconsistency they ought to make up their minds regarding the types of grates to be installed in houses that are nearing completion, so that these grates will burn turf. Most people believe that when a supply of turf is made available in certain places the people will say they cannot use turf because the grates are unsuitable. I suggest to the Minister that he could do away with that complaint, at any rate, in houses that are about to be finished, by installing grates to burn turf. Otherwise the sooner the turf scheme is given up the better. I would like to have an assurance from the Minister that he will look into that matter. I raised it when the Estimate regarding the supply of turf was before the House, but I did not get any answer.

I want to refer now to the need for a Town Planning Bill, which has been promised for a considerable time. It is inconsistent to be providing houses in places where, according to town planning laws, they should not be erected. When does the Minister propose to introduce the Town Planning Bill?

I want to refer also to the supply of water in Dublin. Every house can get a supply, but there is practically no supply of industrial water. The Government professes to be very anxious to start industries here, yet there are handicaps existing, at which, I think, the Government would be appalled. One cannot understand why money should be voted for relief schemes, which practically provide no return, while there are other schemes calling out for solution, the work on which would provide a direct return for the money expended on them. Under that heading I refer particularly to the need for a supply of industrial water for Dublin. By industrial water I mean water under pressure. In many places in Dublin I doubt if the pressure was tested if there would be any more than c.c., but certainly b. could not be obtained in any part of Dublin.

That affects the taxation of persons requiring industrial water because higher insurance premiums have to be paid. Work of that class is calling out for completion, and I suggest that as one of the schemes that might be considered. It is absurd to be voting money for relief schemes when there are other schemes to be dealt with which would provide a return for the money expended.

Mr. Nally

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again on Tuesday, July 4.