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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Jul 1933

Vol. 48 No. 17

Vote 26—Law Charges.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £38,056 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Costaisí Coir-Phróiseacht agus Dlí-Mhuirireacha eile maraon le Deontas i geabhair do Chostaisí áirithe is iníoctha amach as Rátaí Aitiúla do réir Reachta.

That a sum not exceeding £38,056 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934, for the Expenses of Criminal Prosecution and other Law Charges, including a Grant in relief of certain Expenses payable by Statute out of Local Rates.

Last year when this question of law charges was before this House and when an Estimate similar to the present Estimate was being considered, I pointed out to the House that the Attorney-General is an independent officer, that he is not under the control of the Executive Council, that he stands by himself with his own responsibility, his own rights and his own duties with which the Executive Council have no power to interfere. I pointed out, moreover, that he has no responsibility to the Executive Council. I pointed out that he has got the responsibility of the administration of the criminal law when it comes into court in this State and that he and he alone is responsible for miscarriages of justice which are due to the action taken by State prosecutors whom he has appointed. It is no excuse for the Attorney-General to say that the Executive Council are afraid of the I.R.A. It is no excuse for him to say that the I.R.A. can dictate the policy of the Executive Council as they wish. It is no excuse for him when he shows himself afraid of that body —when he shows that whenever they face him he is ready to run away from that body—to say that the Executive Council as a whole, or the Minister for Justice as an individual, are willing to run away from that body.

We had last week in the County Kerry a flagrant example of the Attorney-General being afraid to carry out his plain obvious duty. We had a flagrant example of a case in which a member of the I.R.A. defied and successfully defied the administration of the law. It was the case of a man called John O'Connor who came from the neighbourhood of Tralee. He was charged with larceny, with the possession of a shot-gun and eight cartridges. That man was arraigned before the Circuit Court of the County Kerry on the 25th April last. He showed his contempt for the court. He refused to plead. The Attorney General was there represented. The indictment was read out to the man. He was charged with it and with the offence therein contained. He refused to plead. He was remanded in custody. He went on hunger strike and immediately because he refused to obey the law, because he refused to recognise the court which charged him with larcenies and because he said he would have nothing to do with the court he was released in five days by the Minister for Justice. I pass from that case because we are not now discussing the Vote for the Minister for Justice. The case came on last week again. What was the attitude of the Attorney-General? He has got a man here before the court tried by him before the court indicted by him before the court as the Attorney-General for this State. In his opinion last April there was a case to be investigated by a jury. The magistrate had returned him. It was a prima facie case against the man. But the man defied the law and what is the answer? A nolle prosequi. The State dropped the prosecution. The man goes free. Why? What possible and conceivable reason is there except that this man has defied the law, that he will not recognise the court? What principle would flow from that action of the Attorney-General? What principle has he established by that action? Let a man defy the court, let him refuse to recognise the court and then that man can go scot-free. That is the attitude that the Attorney-General has taken up in the administration of law in this country—that those persons who defy the law, those persons who say they are not amenable to the courts— because they say they are not amenable to the courts—are to be allowed go scot-free. I say that there is no justification for the action of the Attorney-General.

We see cases of this kind every day in the papers. For instance in yesterday's papers we had a case where a man defied the courts again. In that case a Deputy of this House went as a visiting justice and told these men who had defied the court that they were putting the Government in an awkward position by not recognising the court. The Minister for Justice promptly let these men out. Similar action by the members of the Executive Council is no palliation of the action of the Attorney-General. The Attorney-General has got his own duties and he discharges those duties, and no matter what may be the cringing attitude of the Executive Council as a whole towards the I.R.A., that cringing attitude adopted by them is no justification for a cringing attitude being adopted by the Attorney-General. When he comes in his capacity as Attorney-General of the Irish Free State and prosecutes a man against whom there is a prima facie case, the man being sent on for trial, he has his duties to discharge.

Let us turn now to another example, a very flagrant example, of the manner in which the Attorney-General discharges the duties of his high office. It has been very often said that the bully is always a coward. I have given the House an example of the Attorney-General's cowardice. Now let me turn and give the House an example of the Attorney-General's bullying. Let me draw the attention of the House to the way in which the Attorney-General was afraid to face men who defied the law and contrast it with the way in which he deals with men who are upright, honourable citizens of this State. There is a statute called the Official Secrets Act. That statute was invoked by the Attorney-General during the course of this year. I do not think that in any other State in the world has the Attorney-General or a State prosecutor ever covered himself or the administration of justice with such ridicule as the present Attorney-General did by the way in which he behaved in that case. It was a case which caused a considerable amount of sensation all over the State at the time it was heard. It is a case the facts of which I believe are familiar to every Deputy in this House. Therefore I will summarise them very briefly.

An officer of the Guards, with the authority of his then superior officer, the officer in charge of his Department, collected some documents to send to a Professor of the University in Cork who was writing a work on Bolshevism and kindred associations. The way in which that matter was dealt with in the earlier stages is most extraordinary. The head of the Department had been changed a very short time before, a few days before, and the new head of the Department was informed by a detective officer that he was to bring these papers to a very distinguished military officer in this State. If there had been any objection to these documents being conveyed one would have thought that the head of the Detective Division would have sent for his subordinate and would have said to him, "Why are these documents being sent out? What is the explanation of this?" Nothing of the kind happened and it would appear that a deliberate effort was being made to found criminal prosecutions against these persons. The detective officer who had been told to bring these particular documents to the barracks where the inspector had directed him to bring them proceeds, not to carry out instructions, but to hand them over to the chief of the department and they are kept completely secret for some time. This detective officer who, on his own admission in the court, is certainly one of the most first-class liars that walks the streets of this City or walks the roads of this country——

Is the Deputy entitled——

I do not think advantage should be taken of a reference to a case like this so to refer to an official who is defenceless here.

I bow to your ruling, but I want to submit to you that what a man admits in court on oath can be referred to. He admitted in court he made false statement after false statement; he has not denied it. Surely it is in order to refer to that. The Attorney-General was in court and he knows perfectly well that this detective officer did admit he made false statements. Surely I am in order in referring to the facts and to what was sworn in open court.

The Deputy is in order in referring to that, but the Deputy went much further when he characterised this particular Detective Officer——

If you think I went too far, of course I bow to your ruling. I will, therefore, content myself with saying that this particular detective officer admitted in court that he told a whole series of lies. That was sworn in court and I will put it in that fashion. I believe that officer——

On a point of order. The Deputy quite obviously is criticising a member of the Gárda Síochána. Is he entitled to criticise the Gárda Síochána at all on this Vote?

I am criticising the action of the Attorney-General in a particular case.

The Deputy has already criticised the action of a high officer of the Gárda—reflected upon the conduct of a high officer of the Gárda —in the course of his speech.

The Deputy, I understand, is criticising the Attorney-General and quoting a particular case as an illustration. Comment on such officials should not be made, but reference to the case is permissible.

I bow to your ruling, sir. That was the type of witness whom the Attorney-General produced in court and that was the position. I am not sure, I do not know, I cannot know, I have no means of knowing, when into this very discreditable transaction the Attorney-General entered. But I do know this much, that a prosecution cannot be brought in this State without the authority of the Attorney-General. A prosecution cannot be brought without the fiat of the Attorney-General and I know that before these men could be arrested the fiat of the Attorney-General had to be got. Here was a case in which one would have thought the Attorney-General, instead of issuing his fiat, would have said "Let us get an explanation, let us see what has happened, let us go and ask first and see if there is any explanation." That course was not followed. The Attorney-General's fiat was given, the prosecution was started and these officers were arrested, one of them, though known to be in delicate health, at midnight.

Then the Attorney-General comes upon the scene in person. This was going to be a very great State case. Never before, I believe, in the history of the Irish Bar has an Attorney-General gone down to a police court to prosecute in person. This case is a case of such tremendous importance that, so anxious is the Attorney-General about it, he sets a new precedent. For the first time, I believe, in the history of the Irish Bar the Attorney-General went down in person to a police court to prosecute. Here is where the vindictiveness comes in, here is where the bullying process begins. These men are men who held high positions in the State and they discharged their duties to the State well and worthily. They apply for bail. There is no conceivable reason why these men should not be granted bail. No one, for a moment, ever thought that either of them would break his bail bonds if he were granted bail, and leave the country.

But the Attorney-General must have his whack at them and the Attorney-General opposes the granting of bail in order that these men, against whom this charge is brought, these untried men, these innocent men, will have the indignity of spending a few days in prison. It is for that—and it could have been for no other reason, because no sane man could have thought either of them had the slightest intention of breaking his bonds—the Attorney-General again comes to court to prosecute. We hear a lot about these documents and about the Official Secrets Act and what an important thing it is. What these documents were I do not know, but I do know that in the course of the hearing it was remarked by the judge that one of the documents in regard to which this prosecution was being launched was a printed document that could have been bought and was on sale for sixpence or something thereabouts. That was one of the documents which was the subject-matter of this great prosecution. What the other documents were I do not know, but I do know that it transpired in court that those documents were documents that were somewhat old.

They were not documents that come into the possession of the Government within a few months of the previous year or the previous year and a half. They were documents that had been in the possession of the Guards for a very considerable period of time. I knew every single document relating to Saor Eire, or the I.R.A., in the possession of the Guards, or the Department of Justice. Therefore these particular documents must, at some time, have been subject to my scrutiny. I say and I believe that there is hardly one of these documents, if there was even one, that I had not alluded to, and quoted, in this House, at some time or other. If there was one of these documents that I had not quoted to this House, then I say that document was not quoted because it was entirely too insignificant to merit attention. It was in face of documents of that class that this prosecution was allowed.

We saw all this great flair, the Attorney-General in the police courts, coming along with all his forces. We had the Attorney-General, head of the Irish Bar, in the police courts and, afterwards, appearing before a jury in Green Street. And after having listened to all his evidence, and to his witnesses and after he had brought forward every document, that jury intervened, and stopped the case as soon as they heard the evidence of the defendants. Here you have this case brought forward with all this great flourish of trumpets, and because the jury thought it so shockingly weak, they stopped it in the middle of it. The Attorney-General was there in person to prosecute, yet because that case was so desperately weak the jury stopped it before it could be put to them by the judge. That is a very rare thing to happen. It is very rare that a case is ever presented that is in itself so desperately weak that the jury takes it upon itself to stop it before the finish. It is still more rare that a case, so weak in itself as that the jury has to stop it even with the Attorney-General present, is allowed to be prosecuted. There is a little more. This case was heard not merely by a jury, but there was a judge there also. What was the reaction on the judge? He suggested next day to the Attorney-General that considering the nature of the case—I am not quoting his exact words, but only giving the substance of his remarks—that considering the nature of the case and the record of the officers who were prosecuting, the State ought to pay the expenses of the trial. No doubt, therefore, we have the view of the jury that the case was so desperately weak and unfair to the men charged, that it ought never to have been brought and they stopped it in the middle of it, and following on that you get the view of the judge, that the very exceptional step of paying the cost of the defence of the accused persons should be taken in this case.

Now I have contrasted the ways in which the Attorney-General administers the law. If a man defies the law the Attorney-General does not come down to prosecute him. Oh, no, the Attorney-General runs away from such a prosecution. But in the case of men who have served the State honourably and well for many years, even if one or two only have committed an indiscretion, the Attorney-General, riding forth in full panoply of war, must march out to battle. Is that the way the law should be administered in this State? Is that the way the Attorney-General thinks the people of this State will come to have respect for the administration of the law? After all, in this country, as in every other country, perhaps more in this country than any other country in the world, it is advisable that every single thing should be done that would cause the administration of the law, the procedure of the courts and the procedure and practice of the Attorney-General in the courts to be kept above the shadow of a shade of suspicion. How are we to have a law-abiding State if we find that men by their actions, and actions speak more potently than words, can defy the law and become law-breakers with impunity? How are we, in these circumstances, to have law-abiding citizens? If there is one thing calculated to break down a law-abiding spirit it is that method of showing by your example that if you are law-abiding every single resource of the State will be brought against you; but if you face an investigation, and it is shown that you are not law-abiding, the State will put its tail between its legs and let you walk out of court a free man. Is that the way the people of this country are to be brought to admire and to believe in the administration of the law?

I know the Attorney-General may get up and say it is part of a policy. He will say, of course, there are no I.R.A. in this country at all; that since the Oath was taken out of the Constitution the I.R.A. have completely vanished. We were told that that would be so, and we will be told now that it is so. Everybody knows they have not vanished. They are here and they can, with impunity, carry arms. They have come in and defied the courts. They can laugh at the law and still nothing is done. All that is done is that a nolle prosequi is put in by the Attorney-General. If the accused is by any means convicted and sent to prison the prerogative of mercy will be exercised by the Minister for Justice. I venture to inform the Attorney-General that he is taking the wrong course. By these acts of cowardice the Attorney-General is not going to kill any illegal association or any association that wishes to destroy the welfare of this State by force of arms. It is all very well for the Executive Council to take this or that particular man and say: “Here is a job for you in the Irish Press. Keep quiet now!” Or to say to another man: “We will make you an income-tax collector, and hope you will keep quiet.” It is all very well to take up that attitude but it is going to fail. If you buy off these men, you may be sure that there are plenty of others who will come along to be bought off also. Exactly in the same way by entering a nolle prosequi against particular men you are not going to prevent persons being members of illegal associations; and you are not going to prevent people willing to defy the court and defy its jurisdiction from doing so. You will not turn them away from courts and make them peaceful, law-abiding citizens by refusing to prosecute them when you bring them to court. The whole thing is wrong. It is wrong from start to finish. Everybody in this State should be made to obey the law and everybody in this State should be made to respect the law, and the Attorney-General, who ought to be the great upholder of the law, is leading the law fast into the disrespect of law-abiding persons.

The Attorney-General

Had I not listened to a similar diatribe from the Deputy last year, I might be disposed to take more seriously what he has said. Last year he indicted me for my administration of the law during the preceding six or seven months and he singled out two instances upon which he made an attack upon me. A considerable time has now elapsed during which I have had the administration of the law in my hands, and I think I can claim that at the present moment there is respect for the law. I would venture almost to suggest that there is more respect for the law at the present moment than there was during the previous régime. I challenge any Deputy in this House—I shall deal in a moment with the one or two cases to which the Deputy has referred—to say that in my administration of the law or in my decisions as to whether prosecutions shall or shall not take place I have been swayed by any consideration other than that my duty is to enforce the law. I accepted that last year and I still accept it—that in this matter I am sole judge and completely independent of the Executive. I have no right whatsoever to have regard to policy. I must take the law as I find it and administer the law as I find it, and no consideration should sway me from that course. I think I may claim that my conduct of the office during the time I have held that office has not in any way led any section of the community to believe that they can flout the law in any way.

I have been criticised in a directly opposite manner from that in which the Deputy has criticised me. I think the Deputy has been most unfair both last year and this year in suggesting that I was "dragging my office in the mire," as I think he said last year or in the two instances which he has dealt with, to suggest that I have in any way, by my behaviour in office, done anything to lower the position of the high office which I hold. I think I may claim justifiably, although the Deputy has deliberately gone out of his way to avoid anything in the way of allowing or admitting it, that taking the whole course of my conduct during the time I have held office and the way my office has reacted on the country, that at the present moment there is respect for the law and that everybody, no matter what party they belong to, feel that they are going to get a just administration of the law.

I think I have the confidence of the police authorities. As the Deputy knows, most cases come to me after they have been handled by the police authorities. It is only in very rare instances that cases come to me beforehand. In all the cases initiated by the Guards, with their knowledge of the law or under the instruction of the State solicitors, I think that I could number the cases in which I have written nolle prosequi on the files on the fingers of one hand and I think that the courts are quite satisfied that they are directed by me and required by me to administer the law as they find it and to show no favour to any class or section of the community.

The Deputy has singled out two instances during the past year. One of these cases was the O'Connor case in Kerry and whether the Deputy, as he did last year, consciously or unconsciously, has omitted certain important facts in the case or not, I do not know. Whether he has done it consciously or unconsciously I cannot say.

I have quoted what appeared in the news papers.

The Attorney-General

The Deputy has not, as I will show.

I quoted from the papers I saw.

The Attorney-General

The O'Connor case was not accurately related by the Deputy. I directed the prosecution of this man O'Connor from Kerry. He was charged in the District Court before the district justice on a date, I think, early in the month of February. On that occasion, I understand that he took up the attitude of refusing to recognise the court. He was returned for trial by the district justice to be tried at the court which was to be held in Tralee on the 25th April. He was offered bail but declined it. He went to gaol and spent from the early part of February to the end of April in custody. The case came on in the Circuit Court and I had counsel there briefed to prosecute him. He was duly arraigned and, as the Deputy says, he took up the attitude of refusing to recognise the court. The matter then passed out of my hands. I have no jurisdiction over the court when a prisoner refuses to recognise it. It is none of my affair as to how the judge deals with what is known as contempt of court. The Deputy knows that.

You didn't say it.

The Attorney-General

Allow me to show where the Deputy has left out some part of the story. The judge, dealing with this matter which was within his jurisdiction, had the option, if he wished to do so, to go on with the trial and either punish or not punish the prisoner for the offence which was created by the Juries Act. He took the course of sentencing O'Connor to a term of imprisonment of two or three months—I forget what was the amount at the moment. The sentence was for contempt of court. That is where the Deputy made a mistake. He said that he was remanded —I forget the exact words. O'Connor was sentenced for that offence and was transferred to Cork Prison. Here is the point, which, I think, the Deputy omitted to mention, and which appeared in the newspapers. On the following day, Judge MacElligott, who is a judge who has been in office, I think, since the Courts of Justice Acts were passed, and who was appointed under the régime which preceded us, came down to court and referred in open court to the case and to the conduct of O'Connor in refusing to recognise the court and to the action he had taken in consequence of that refusal, and he suggested to the Executive Council that in his opinion O'Connor should be released.

The Attorney-General has nothing to do with that.

The Attorney-General

I think it has a good deal to do with it. The judge then said that had O'Connor been convicted for the offence with which he was charged, in view of the fact that he had already served from February to April, he would not give him a day's imprisonment. Is not that important to the case?

No, the Attorney-General's business is to prosecute.

The Attorney-General

That is so. I think the Deputy might in fairness have told the whole story. He admits that he knows all that appeared in the paper. O'Connor, on the suggestion of the judge, was released and at that stage, as the Deputy well knows, the position was first of all, a rather difficult one. The man was not on bail and the police, as the Deputy knows, in this case did not act without the report from the Guards in the locality, from the Commissioner, and so on, as to the difficulties in the position. Difficulties arose from the fact that this man who had been sentenced for this offence under the Jury Acts was then a free man. Apart from that, I submit that, in this single instance, which in the whole 12 months which have elapsed since my last Vote has been the only case in which a nolle prosequi was entered, it was a reasonable and proper thing for me to enter a nolle prosequi in all the circumstances, taking into account that the judge, who would be the man to try the prisoner, had stated in open court that he would not have sentenced the man to a day's imprisonment, if he were found guilty. That may or may not appeal to the Deputy as a justification but it might at least have been mentioned by him in his slashing condemnation of me.

We will pass from that. There have been, as the Deputy knows, several other instances of cases of a similar kind. There was a case the other day in which a similar situation arose. I have been confronted with it on several occasions, but I have not shirked my duty, and I am not going to shirk my duty. I do not regard my particular action in that case as encouraging anybody to believe that I am going to shirk my duty. I am not going to shirk my duty. If any persons are found in the possession of arms and the police bring the matter to my notice, I will prosecute them and go through with the prosecution—let there be no mistake about it. Anything I have done while I have been in office cannot be suggested as showing any contrary intention. That is my firm intention until the law is changed. While the law is there prohibiting people from carrying arms I am determined, so far as I am concerned, if cases are brought to my notice, and evidence put before me, to see that the law is going to be enforced in that regard.

As regards the O'Connell case, the Deputy again has painted a picture of what happened in that case which rather persuades me to believe that any of my activities are viewed by the Deputy with a jaundiced eye. He seems to take a particular delight in singling out anything he can find to say against me. I find, even in speeches down the country, that he singles me out and refers away back to things I said years ago. I saw the other day that he made a cross-roads speech in which he made an attack on me.

I have no recollection of ever mentioning the Attorney-General at a cross-roads speech.

The Attorney-General

You evidently had a reporter there because a copy of the speech was sent to me.

Could you prosecute him?

The Attorney-General

He came then to the Hogan-O'Connell case. In that case I accept responsibility for the prosecution. The papers came to me as they must in cases under the Official Secrets Act, for my fiat. I had nothing to act upon save the police report as to what was the information in their possession at the time. The Deputy has referred to the fact that the principal witness, upon whose evidence the prosecution was founded in court, subsequently admitted that he told lies. That, of course, said in that bald way, might suggest that it was a very foolish thing to depend upon such evidence. I presume the Deputy is referring to statements which he made to the officers who were charged when they sought to get from him what he had done with the documents. The story of the case, I suppose, is so well-known that it is hardly necessary to go over it. But what happened was this: When this officer was handed by Inspector O'Connell a bundle of documents he was told to deliver these to Colonel Hogan at Portobello Barracks. Instead of delivering them to Colonel Hogan he handed them over to his superior officer. In keeping from Colonel Hogan the fact that he had handed them over to his superior officer he did what I am quite certain the Deputy well knows he authorised his own officers to do in the course of his administration of the office of Minister for Justice—he made evasive answers which were untrue. I regarded the case as a serious case. I quite admit that. It was the first definite case we got hold of in which we were in a position to show that an attempt was being made to hand over to persons, who had no authority to receive them, official documents. The Official Secrets Act, in the minds of a great many people, is connected with the safety of the country in time of war. The Deputy is a lawyer, and he well knows that the Official Secrets Act has two aspects: one designed to protect the country against the betrayal of official secrets to enemies of the country and the other designed to protect official documents and official information of any kind, which comes into a person's possession by reason of their official capacity.

Just before this case, if I might pass from it for a moment, there was a case in London where the editor of one of the leading newspapers was charged under that Act with having received, and the officer who gave it was charged with having given, a copy of a will from Somerset House. If I recollect aright, the Attorney-General went down to the Magistrate's Court in London and prosecuted for that offence. This person handed out a copy of a will the night before probate had officially been granted. It was in the newspaper office at ten o'clock in the morning and it was printed in that day's issue of the paper. It was available to all the papers at four o'clock in the evening. Notwithstanding that fact, such a serious view was taken of the leaking out of that particular document, and so anxious were the Government there to prevent any looseness in that regard, that they pounced upon the man who handed it out and he was convicted and sentenced. The gentleman who received the document on behalf of the paper was also convicted and sentenced, and on appeal the convictions and sentences were affirmed. I forget the term of the sentences, but they were very severe.

Here we had in this case what I regard as a much more serious position in which there were documents which I was informed by the responsible officer in charge of that branch of the police—my judgment does not run to such an extent that I am entitled to place it against his in a matter of the kind—were of a secret nature and that it was most important that their confidential nature should be preserved. The detective officer employed in the headquarters of the branch, feeling that something was going amiss when he was handed these documents by Inspector O'Connell, reported the matter to Colonel Broy, who was then in charge of the department. I got the documents and I looked at them. I did not read every single solitary line of them, and I doubt very much whether the Deputy if he had read those documents would have made the statement he made in this House to-day that they were not of a secret nature, and that their secrecy should not have been preserved. The documents were varied and numerous. Some of them, as was stated by the judge in court, and as everybody who was there knew, were publications which could be bought in the shops in the city, but they happened to be with the bundle which was handed out and which were simply torn from the files by Inspector O'Connell. No record was kept of the documents taken out. They were thrown into a basket and left there until suddenly one day he bethought himself that he had been told by a superior officer to hand them out. They had been left there in the basket and were then bundled into an envelope.

Again, on the question of whether those documents should not have been handed out to a person who had no authority to receive them, when this case was in the District Court—and the Deputy knows this—an application was made to District Justice Cussen by Mr. John Fitzgerald, who represented the accused, to have access to those documents. I agreed. I said that I did not wish to hamper the defence in any way, but I told the district justice what I had been told about their nature, and the importance of preserving their secrecy. The district justice said from the bench that he had read the documents, and agreed absolutely with me that they could not be allowed to get publicity. So strongly did he hold in that regard that he laid down as a condition for the inspection of those documents by the defence that they were to be kept in a safe in the courts, were only to be inspected in the presence of a police officer, and that no copies were to be made of them. Does the Deputy still hold that they were not secret documents?

I do, and that that was a request made by the Attorney-General.

The Attorney-General

I have just stated that the district justice did not yield to my request in another matter which the Deputy has referred to. He did not show that he was ready to yield to my request simply because it was my request. He stated in the court that he had read the documents, and that the documents should not be revealed. The Deputy must be perfectly well aware that it was a most unfortunate case from the point of view of the police. Several of the documents which were on the files of the court were not read to the jury. The jury did not see the documents, and did not, in my opinion, appreciate their importance, I do not want to criticise in any way the action of the jury, which I am prepared to accept, but I do want to say that the story of how these documents were obtained would convey to any intelligent man that it was of the utmost importance that they should not leak out. Some of the documents may not have contained matter of great importance, but the method in which they were obtained showed that the whole police system of capturing documents of this nature, dealing with Communism as these were, was imperilled by the fact that this looseness was allowed to prevail in the police department. The Deputy quite well knows that the police had certain methods of getting hold of those documents; that they photographed these documents; that only a limited number of photographs were taken; that two of those copies were sent to a certain officer to be put away in a safe; that the other two copies were sent to the headquarters of that branch; that one of the copies was retained there, and the other sent to Scotland Yard.

Surely the only photograph was a photograph of a document of the minutes of a meeting in Berlin, which, if I am not very much mistaken, I quoted in this House.

The Attorney-General

There were several photographs. There were any number of photographs of letters and other documents in the case. The Deputy did not see them.

I know I did not, and I do not know what documents they could have been.

The Attorney-General

I am stating here, and I am willing to produce the documents to the Deputy if he doubts me for one moment, that several of the documents involved in this case and handed out in this loose manner were documents which were obtained by police methods, and the mere revelation of the fact that they could get out of the police department was bound to, and I am quite certain did, stop the flow of such information to the police. Yet the Deputy says that the case was not a serious one, and that I was not entitled to take a serious view of it.

Another type of document in the case were documents which came here from Scotland Yard, confidential documents sent over by the English police in order to enable the police here to keep track of Communist activities. Those documents were handed out by Inspector O'Connell, under, as it turned out at the end of the case, directions from Colonel Neligan, and were handed over to Colonel Hogan for transmission to his brother. I am not going to, and I did not in the course of the case, make any aspersions on either Colonel Hogan or his brother, or their bona fides, or deny that Professor Hogan is a reputable historian, who probably wanted those documents for the purpose for which he said he wanted them. I made no suggestion against him in the course of the case, but I think the Government were entitled to take serious notice of the fact—however well intentioned were the recipients of those documents, and however innocent the channel through which they were going to Professor Hogan—that a responsible police officer, an officer in the most important branch of the whole of the service of the Government, with documents under his control which, above all other documents, should be guarded in complete confidence, dealt with them in that loose manner.

And yet Scotland Yard sent the very same type of document to the same gentleman.

The Attorney-General

So it was stated in the box by some witness.

The Attorney-General

I certainly do deny that Scotland Yard would hand documents out to anybody in the manner in which documents were handed out in this case.

Do you deny that Scotland Yard sent the documents?

Do you deny that it was sworn to, and was the man a perjurer?

The Attorney-General

I admit that Professor Hogan, when he was in the box, threw out a suggestion——

He swore to it.

The Attorney-General

He was on his oath. He was giving evidence.

Yes, and was he perjuring himself?

The Attorney-General

I will tell you what he said in one moment. He threw out a suggestion that Scotland Yard helped in dealing with Communism by allowing certain documents out to a reputable historian.

Did he not say that similar documents to the one you are describing as most secret were sent to him directly from Scotland Yard?

The Attorney-General

I do not think he did.

Did he not swear to that in court?

The Attorney-General

I do not think so.

Well now, think again.

The Attorney-General

I was there watching the course of the case, and I certainly never gathered for one moment from Professor Hogan's evidence that he said documents were handed out to him from Scotland Yard in the way in which these documents were handed out.

Not "in the way."

The Attorney-General

I will pass to one other aspect of the matter for a moment. The previous Administration at one time considered the question as to whether it would be advisable to publish these documents. In order to satisfy themselves as to whether it would be in the interests of the police force or in the interests of the public that they should be published they invited Colonel Neligan—they invited first of all the Commissioner and the Commissioner transferred the minute to Colonel Neligan—to give an opinion as to whether those documents should be published or not. It was quite remarkable the care with which that question was considered.

The minute as to whether certain documents should or should not be published was passed from rank to rank, right down through the whole of the detective branch, and each officer was asked to give his opinion as to whether it would be in the public interest that these documents should be published. We had a report coming from the lowest rank up, passing through Colonel Neligan and passing on to the Commissioner, showing their opinion that it was not in the public interest that those documents should be published. Yet three months after we get into office Colonel Neligan meets Professor Hogan at the Horse Show. What is the proceeding there? Professor Hogan asks Colonel Neligan might he have some documents about Communism. Colonel Neligan in his evidence admitted that he went back to the office, and I think on that occasion he also used Inspector O'Connell to detach the documents from the file. The documents were detached from the file, put in an envelope and posted to Cork. No record was made of them, and until the case was at hearing Coloney Broy or anybody else did not know that a bundle of documents had gone out to Professor Hogan from that office. That was the first instance. I think there was a second instance in which more documents were sent out, and so careless were they about the way they sent them that Professor Hogan wrote back and said that most of the documents were no use and could he send more valuable stuff. The bundle brought to our notice was the bundle of more valuable stuff, going out in the casual and careless manner which I have just described.

They could be bought for sixpence.

The Attorney-General

The case was presented to me in the district court, and I make no apologies for it. I consider it is of vital importance that we should bring home to every officer in the service that any documents which come into their hands by reason of their official positions should be treated as secret and confidential. We had our own good reasons for that. It was necessary that the first instance we got of this sort of thing should be dealt with in a drastic manner. We could have dealt with the matter in another way. I suppose the previous Administration would probably have dismissed everybody. We prefer, as we have tried to do in every way, to try the ordinary methods of law.

And dismiss him afterwards.

The Attorney-General

We did not dismiss anybody.

You reduced Inspector O'Connell after he was cleared by the jury in court. You dismissed Colonel Neligan.

The Attorney-General

If the Deputy would realise that Colonel Neligan had left that office weeks before because——

Because of what?

The Attorney-General

It had nothing to do with this case at all.

Tell us about it.

The Attorney-General

I was going to say that I went down to court and prosecuted in this case. The case was presented, the documents were there in court. They were examined by the District Justice, and everybody who knows District Justice Cussen will admit that in dealing with a case of this kind he goes to the most scrupulous care in making himself familiar with the evidence. He examined the documents and gave his view about the documents. In considering the secrecy of these documents and my ideas as to the secrecy of these documents, I do want the House to know that I do attach importance to the fact that whether the documents were secret from the public point of view or not, that the officers who had taken them had no right to exercise their judgment as to what was to be passed out to the general public.

However, District Justice Cussen heard the case with the greatest care, and when the case for the prosecution closed what happened? Defending counsel, Mr. Fitzgerald, one of the ablest counsel at the Bar, got up and said to the District Justice: "I have no reason why the accused should not be returned for trial," and then we have the Deputy here suggesting that I had no grounds to prosecute. Surely when counsel for the accused offered no explanation and made no opposition to the case being sent forward, that disposes of the Deputy's charge. The case was sent forward to the higher court. Here I make no apology for my action in the case. I do not think it needs an apology. What happened in the course of the case is known. We had established beyond yea or nay that these documents were official documents. We had the evidence of the officers concerned that in their opinion not alone were they official documents which were not to be handed out in any event, but that they were of the type of official documents which should be most carefully guarded.

When the defence was opened the defence was this, that Colonel Neligan when in charge of that particular office, had given instructions to the officer immediately below him, Inspector O'Connell, to hand out those documents. I think most Deputies will agree that that was a most extraordinary action for Colonel Neligan to take. Inspector O'Connell acted on those instructions. Colonel Neligan left the office in December. This incident happened, I think, in February, and Inspector O'Connell, six weeks or more after Colonel Neligan had left the office still acted on that authority. He did not come to his superior officer, Colonel Broy, and say: "Look here, Colonel Hogan wants these documents for his brother." Not at all. He completely ignores his superior officer and hands these documents to a junior detective to be transmitted, in the loose way described, to Colonel Hogan. If ever there was a case in which it was obvious that a conspiracy was on foot to get these documents out, that was a case, and on the evidence which was then before me there was no course open to me, if I wished to carry out the law as it should be carried out, but to have invoked the law and prosecuted. I have nothing whatsoever to apologise for in this prosecution and there is nothing that I have reason to be ashamed of in it. I do not think I need say any more in answer to the diatribe that has been delivered against me by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney. I repeat what I said at the beginning. I have been in office now since this Government took over office and the House is in a position to judge whether, in the course of my administration of the law, I have allowed any political considerations to influence me. No Deputy in the House can say that I have ever been influenced in the discharge of the duties of the office by political consideration. If that is a crime, I plead guilty to having done my duty. I agree that it is my duty to see the law administered fairly and honestly and so long as I am in office I intend to do so.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 58; Níl, 37.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Doherty, Joseph.
  • Everett, James.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).

Níl

  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • Minch, Sydney B.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Connor, Batt.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Good, John.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn