Before the adjournment of the debate on the motion for the Second Reading of this Bill yesterday, I had given to the Dáil information as to the purposes for which the amount provided under the Bill would be expended. I had informed the Dáil of the total amounts provided under the various Acts for the Electricity Supply Board to enable it to carry out its functions under the Acts. I had indicated that its actual requirements for the three years ending in March, 1936, amounted to £1,436,600, and the amount provided under this Bill when added to the amounts provided under the previous Acts and not expended, provide for these requirements. I do not know that there is any further information that the Dáil may require in relation to this measure. The report of the Electricity Supply Board for 1932-33 was recently circulated to members. The financial year 1933-34 is not yet completed, and the report for that year will not, of course, be available for some time after the completion of the financial year. I might say that for the ten months of the year to the 31st January, the number of units generated showed an increase of 15,000,000. The revenue earned showed an increase of £75,000, and the number of additional consumers was 6,560. During the course of this ten months Kildare, Nenagh, Carrick-on-Shannon, Coolock and Tallaght were connected to the Board's system. Final arrangements, I understand, have been made to give a supply to Bailieborough, Killeshandra, Virginia, Monasterevan, Ennistymon, Lahinch, Miltown-Malbay and Ballaghaderreen, and work will be commenced immediately. The Bill, as I have said, is one merely to provide the capital requirements to finance the ordinary growth of the Board's activities. There is an annual increase in the consumption of electricity, and that increase involves continuous capital expenditure upon generating equipment and on the transmission and distributing systems, as well as capital for the financing of the sale of electrical equipment to consumers. No special point arises out of the Bill. Questions relating to future electrical policy will more appropriately arise on the other Bill to which I made reference, and which I hope will be introduced in the course of a month or six weeks' time, to provide for additional storage.
Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1934—Second Stage (resumed).
Do I understand from the Minister that this Bill provides for additional expenditure of £1,436,000 for three years?
Yes, for the three years 1933-34, 1934-35 and 1935-36.
None of this amount is to be spent on increased generation?
That is so, to an extent, but some part of it will be spent as I stated, on improvements at Ardnacrusha and the Pigeon House, which will have the effect of increasing the efficiency of those stations.
There will be no increased generation at Limerick arising out of this money. The expenditure generally will be on certain improvements at the Pigeon House and on distribution. The details and the figures which the Minister gave us suggested that a large amount of expenditure is going to take place on distribution. He gave certain details of expenditure that was going to take place around the Pigeon House. I wonder could the Minister say in round terms what would be the total amount likely to be taken up by distribution in the new areas to be joined up, and what is the amount that is going to be spent in any way in the Pigeon House area? The Minister also indicated that £60,000 was going to be spent in the next two years on additional accommodation. I understood from him that this additional accommodation is to be in Dublin. I should like to know if that is so, and what are the staff developments that have taken place in the Board which would call for the provision of such a large amount for additional premises.
Could the Minister say the number of units generated in the Pigeon House last year? I should like to have that information and also the opinion of the Minister as to the value of the Pigeon House as an asset to the whole of the country. I am sure those who were interested in watching its growth for over 20 years would like to have a word from the Minister as to the value of the Pigeon House as an asset to the State during the last 12 months.
Could the Minister add, perhaps, the amount of units generated in the Pigeon House and the amount generated in Ardnacrusha?
With reference to the question of extensions mentioned by the Minister, would there be any possibility of the Minister's securing that, where there were extensions being made, local authorities should be consulted, especially urban authorities, before the line would be erected? I have come across a case quite recently where the fact of high tension lines being erected in a certain place in an urban area has prevented the growth of that area in so far as housing is concerned. Splendid housing sites have been destroyed because of the fact that high tension poles were in the vicinity. The Minister will know that an order has been quite recently issued by the E.S.B. to prevent building within a certain distance of an electricity line. I do think it would be desirable if the Minister could secure that before a line, especially a high tension line, would be erected the local authority would be consulted, because by a conference between the engineer of the local authority and the representative of the E.S.B. an alternative place could probably be found. I should like to ask the Minister to try to have that done. I understand also that where lines have already been erected and where they have destroyed the developments of certain areas in an urban district, the E.S.B., when they have changed the lines, have charged the local authority with the expense of doing so. In some cases where a small local authority is concerned that would be a very high expense for them. We all know the cost of housing at the moment, and every expense that is added to it means a higher rent for the person who has to live in the house. I know of one urban area which has made representations to the E.S.B. to have a line removed, and if they have to pay for the removal of the line it will make the housing scheme which they have in their minds absolutely impossible.
I should like to ask the Minister whether any consideration will be given to the excessive charges for current in Limerick, having regard to the fact that there has been a huge increase in the output of electricity, and a considerable increase in the number of consumers, and also having regard to the fact that a promise was given that the charges in Limerick would be revised at the expiration of the March quarter in 1933. All representations, however, to the Board have fallen on deaf ears. It cannot be challenged that, situated as we are at the base of the supply, we pay an inordinately high rate for our current. The Minister may say that he cannot influence the Board, but he should at least secure a fair hearing for the appeals that have been made to them. I think that he cannot justify an increase of 25 per cent. on a price which was already the highest price charged to consumers in Ireland. Some districts like Cork and Dublin have escaped with an increase of 10 per cent. and 12½ per cent., but an increase of 25 per cent. has been inflicted on Limerick users without any adequate reason being advanced.
Deputy Good asked the Minister to inform him as to the cost of electricity per unit at the point of generation in Limerick and at the Pigeon House. I would be glad if the Minister could also inform us as to the average cost per unit at the point of consumption in Dublin for electricity derived from the Pigeon House and, secondly, the average cost per unit for electricity derived from Ardnacrusha. I ask that because I think the cost of distribution must be taken into consideration when we compute the value of the respective sources of supply.
I would also suggest to the Minister that public safety demands that some further steps, other than those that have been taken already, should be taken to warn the public of the danger of interfering with the transmission lines of the Electricity Supply Board. The Minister is aware that through imprudence—I do not desire to introduce a controversial political note into this matter—some young persons have very foolishly thrown ropes, wires and so forth across the electricity supply lines for the purpose of quenching the light in some wayside village. In doing that they are thus endangering their own lives in addition to endangering the lives of other people. I think the E.S.B., could, with great advantage, conduct a publicity campaign to educate the people on this point. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs could co-operate through the radio stations in warning people that any interference with the transmission lines is not only extremely dangerous to the people who do interfere but is calculated to do damage out of all proportion to the purpose for which the interference takes place.
I want to ask the Minister about a few matters in connection with this Bill. The Minister, I expect, anticipates what I am going to say because I suppose the Killaloe fishermen haunt his dreams. These men were knocked out of employment because of the operations of the Shannon Scheme. This is the only time recently that I have had an opportunity of referring to that matter. I want to ask the Minister in his reply to say if a Departmental Committee is to be set up to report on this matter and, if so, whether he intends to put into operation the report of the Departmental Committee. I also want to ask him if it is the policy of the Government to keep the electricity supply buildings in Clare still free from rates and whether the Minister has considered how that question affects the county council? I want to ask him whether he has considered that the county council will have to bear the enormous cost of these services and does he think it is fair now to saddle them with this burden by de-rating the Electricity Supply Board buildings at Ardnacrusha?
I am glad to see that the Electricity Supply Board is extending its network of lines. I want to ask the Minister to use whatever influence he has with the Board to try and get them to extend the network in Clare. I noticed that he spoke of Ennistymon, Lahinch and Miltown Malbay as being about to be wired but it is curious that the world famed health resort of Lisdoonvarna, which is only five miles across, is not included in the various development schemes to be started. I think the Minister should use his influence with the Electricity Supply Board to extend the line to Lisdoonvarna. That would help to bring people to this world-famed health resort. Regarding the work on the scheme there is still the grievance in Clare that outsiders have been brought in. People from various parts of Ireland are still working on the scheme while married men living on the spot are unemployed.
Is an Irishman an outsider in Clare? I want an answer to that from the Minister.
Mr. Hogan
I am not always talking like Cork men.
An Irishman is an outsider at the other side of the mountain.
Before the Minister replies, I would ask him to take account of the fact that there were very large increases on the rates charged by the Electricity Supply Board for electricity. In some towns that increase was as high as 25 per cent. When that increase was put on we were led to believe that as soon as conditions became favourable these increases would be taken off. Indeed we had reason to believe that the original charges would be reduced. The charge in Kinsale is now 7½d. per unit plus the valuation charge. That means that towns where people up to the introduction of the Shannon Scheme generated and sold their own electricity, where small industries connected with the town were put out of existence and where to that extent local employment was crushed, the position of these towns has been prejudiced. The Electricity Supply Board should get back to a reasonable charge in these towns. A charge of 7½d. per unit plus valuation is very much more than these towns can afford. I am afraid that in some of these towns the number of customers using electricity has dropped.
The Minister told us there has been an increase of 6,600 in the number of consumers. I think the Minister should find out whether any people who had been using electricity gave up using it. At the time when the scheme was introduced we were led to believe that electricity was not going to cost us more than 3d. per unit. While at the present time it is costing less in some cases, in parts of the country it is costing 25 per cent. to 30 per cent. more than it cost when the power was being generated locally by mechanical means. Furthermore, there is the point that these towns have suffered the loss of the employment given by the old companies and firms. I would like to know if the Minister will hold out any hope that the Electricity Supply Board would possibly go back to the charges that obtained before they put on this increase, and, if possible, later on to bring the charges down to the level at which we were once told electricity was going to be sold? At present the price of electricity in this country is very high.
Deputy Mulcahy inquired as to the total sums that are to be expended upon improvements at the Pigeon House and in the development of new areas. The estimate of the Board in connection with the Pigeon-House is £64,500 in the present year and £5,000 in next year. The provision for the development of new areas is £80,000 in each year.
Does that include the dredging at the Pigeon House?
It includes the dredging of the harbour and the enlargement of the wharf. Deputy Mulcahy inquired also about the provision of a substantial sum for the erection of new office buildings. It has been represented by the Board that the existing buildings at Mount Street are unsuitable to house the activities of the headquarter staff. They say that the working of the whole system will be greatly facilitated by the provision of more suitable premises, and they represent that the erection of these suitable premises will involve economies of various kinds. It has been decided to authorise them to proceed with the erection of these premises. The work will be carried out within a period of a year or two. It is proposed that £60,000 will be expended on these works in 1935 and a similar sum the following year.
No site has been chosen yet?
That is entirely a matter for the Board. Deputy Byrne inquired as to the number of units of electricity generated at the Pigeon House. I can only give him the information which is available in the published reports. For the year ending 31st March, 1933, out of the total of 166,000,000 units of electricity generated, roughly 22,000,000 units were generated at the Pigeon House. It is, of course, essential for the Board operating the electricity supply scheme to have a steam station as a stand by. This station is undoubtedly a considerable asset to the Board. They were able to get it for nothing.
For nothing? For less than nothing.
Deputy Good inquired as to the cost of generating a unit at Ardnacrusha as compared with the cost of generating at the Pigeon House. That is a figure which is very difficult to give, because that cost must either include capital charges or it must not. If it includes capital charges, then, of course, the cost to the Board of generating at the Pigeon House is remarkably low, because they got the Pigeon House for nothing, as I have said. If, on the other hand, you exclude capital charges, the cost of generating at Ardnacrusha is very small indeed.
That would not be a fair cost: you pay for one and you do not pay for the other.
If one were to try and get to the figures which were fairly comparable one would have to place on the Pigeon House a capital value.
Oh, no. Why should you place a capital value on a thing you do not pay capital for?
Of course, if you do not include in the cost per unit generated at the Pigeon House any charge in respect of capital, the cost of generating there is obviously a different matter.
The City Manager's valuation is £2,000,000.
Could not the Minister arrive at a figure without taking capital value into either calculation?
If you leave out the capital charge, the cost of generating at Ardnacrusha is almost infinitesimal. The same, of course, applies in respect of the cost of a unit to consumers. The report of the Board shows that the average earning of the Board per unit sold for the year ended 31st March, 1933, was 2.09d. The average earning per unit generated was 1.51d.
Is that over the whole system?
Over the whole system. Deputy O'Neill referred——
If the Minister would excuse my interrupting, I asked him if he were in a position to give respecttive figures at the point of consumption in Dublin for electricity generated at Ardnacrusha and electricity generated at the Pigeon House, without taking the capital cost into account. Perhaps that figure is not available?
The figure is not available.
The Board is not in a position to say whether it is cheaper to supply electricity from the Pigeon House or from Limerick?
from the point of view of the Board, having regard to its capital obligations, it is undoubtedly cheaper to supply electricity from Ardnacrusha. The capital expended on Ardnacrusha is there in any event, and the charges arising out of that expenditure are roughly met.
The Minister answers the question in his own way.
Deputy O'Neill referred to the increase in charges. I am not responsible for the charges for electricity made by the Electricity Supply Board. The Board is required by law to fix such charges for electricity as will enable it to meet all the costs of producing it, plus the other requirements specified in the Electricity Supply Act, 1927. If the Board is of opinion that the existing charges cannot be reduced without failure on its part to meet its obligations under the Act, then there is neither the power nor the obligation on me to take any action in the matter. I may say to Deputy O'Neill that if he was led to believe that electricity would be sold throughout the country at 3d. per unit, the responsibility for misleading him rests upon a member of his own Party, with whom he can discuss the matter on terms of much greater intimacy than I could.
It went back much further than the creation of any party.
What I have said in that connection is, of course, also an answer to Deputy Keyes. The Board is responsible for fixing its own charges. I cannot accept any obligation either to make representations to them on the matter, or to take any other course. I would have certain functions to perform if it were clear that the Board was failing to make such provision as the law requires. It is true there has been a steady increase in the consumption of electricity and in the number of consumers. That increase has been maintained, but I think we hoped for a more rapid increase than has, in fact, been realised. It is, I think, correct to say that the rate of increase has been roughly eleven per cent. per annum. I should like to say that the rate of increase, and, in fact, the soundness of the Board's financial position, will depend largely on its ability to secure a greater rate of increase than has been obtained heretofore.
Deputy Hogan raised the question of extending the system to Lisdoonvarna. I should be only too glad to make representations to the Board, and I am quite certain the Board would be only too glad to act on representations, to extend the system to any part of the country where it can be shown that it will pay to do so. The only consideration that could enter into the matter is the prospect of securing an adequate return on the capital that must be invested in making the extention. In every case where it is possible for the Board to show that an annual revenue will be secured from the extension, capable of meeting the charges that will be raised in consequence of the extension and yielding a profit to the Board, then the extension will be made. So far as I am concerned there will be no restriction of any kind on the efforts of the Board to extend the system to any part of the country, provided they can show that by doing so they are going to improve their revenue position.
The Inter-Departmental Committee which considered the question of the Shannon Fisheries has reported, and, on the basis of that report, legislative proposals will be brought to the Dáil in the course of the next week or so. Perhaps I should not discuss that report now, but the question of the Killaloe fishermen can be more approprivately raised by Deputy Hogan upon the Shannon Fisheries Bill, which will, I hope, be introduced next week or shortly afterwards. I deliberately say I hope it will be introduced, because the Bill has had a very long period of preparation. Deputies will recollect that a Bill with a similar name was introduced by the late Government some 12 months before they went out of office, but it never saw the light of day. I do not want to introduce the Bill until I am certain of being able to produce it.
You are not taking your cue from them?
It would not be the first he took from them.
I think we will be able to improve on any ideas that may have occurred to them. As regards the employment of persons by the Electricity Supply Board, again I have no control whatever over it. The Board are absolutely free to employ anybody they like. If they choose to employ, in connection with the works at Limerick, people other than Limerick or Clare people, I have no power to stop them.
And pay what wages they like?
Well, I think they can pay what wages they like, subject to their ability to get workers to work for those rates, or to secure the consent of the unions representing the workers to the rates fixed by them. The matter is completely under the control of the Board—placed there by statute—and I have no more function in connection with it than any other Deputy in the House. Those, I think, are all the points that were raised. If any other points occur to Deputies we can discuss them.
Will the Minister deal with the young men who throw ropes over the high tension cables?
Fortunately, I will not have to deal with them. Again, this is a matter for the Board to take whatever precautions they think are necessary to prevent people from interfering with the transmission system. They have, I think, rather alarming notices over the whole of their transmission system, warning people that there is grave danger to life in interfering with the transmission lines. I am quite certain that if they consider it necessary to give a more drastic warning, even to the extent of using the radio system, they will do it.
What about the points I raised?
Deputy Corish raised the matter of the location of transmission lines and of the Board using its powers under the Act in a manner which is detrimental to development of particular areas. The Dáil, in its wisdom, or, at least, the Dáil that then existed, decided to give the Board absolute control in these matters, and it has been exercising these powers without being subject in any way to Ministerial control. Representations have been made from time to time to the Board in this regard and, to my knowledge, they have always endeavoured to arrange their requirements to meet these local representations, and if Deputies wish to make representations with regard to particular cases to me I will have them transmitted to the Board, or they can make these representations direct to the Board, knowing that in such matters they have as much influence with the Board as I have.
You would not think of depriving the Board of some of its omnipotence?
That is another matter.
The Minister has informed the House that current can be generated more cheaply at the Pigeon House than at Ardnacrusha——
No. I do not want to be misunderstood in that. I said that it is impossible to give a figure unless one knows on what basis the figure is to be calculated. If one takes capital charges into account, having regard to the fact that the Board has no capital liability in respect of the Pigeon House and heavy capital liability in respect of the Ardnacrusha station, the cost calculated on that basis must necessarily be less when the unit is generated at the Pigeon House than at Ardnacrusha, but, taking into account that the Board has to meet capital charges at the Ardnacrusha station in any event, no matter where it generates the units, it is obviously more economical to develop the units at Ardnacrusha than anywhere else.
But the Minister is, of course, aware that manufacturers have complained of the high cost of current for manufacturing purposes, and Deputy Kelly, to his sorrow, is aware that the Electricity Supply Board paid no capital for the Pigeon House nor for other stations which they took over. It is obvious, therefore, that current can be generated, at all events, in this area very much more cheaply at the Pigeon House than it can be generated at Ardnacrusha and brought to Dublin. That is an obvious fact which does not require any argument. Would not the policy then be to extend the Pigeon House, provided it was capable of extension, and, in fact, it is, and supply the cheap current to the Dublin manufacturers who are complaining of the high cost? The Minister very properly pointed out that the Electricity Supply Board is a body to which he can only make representations. He cannot command them to do anything, but, if, after inquiry, the Minister felt disposed to make a representation of that character to them, I think it ought to be made, because everything ought to be done—and I need not impress this fact on the Minister—to enable us to produce cheap power and thereby help our manufacturers to extend their developments.
I should just like to say that if there were no Shannon Scheme and no Pigeon House; if we were starting now afresh for the purpose of providing, in some form, capacity to generate electricity for sale on a national scale, it might be true that in present circumstances, we could get current cheaper by erecting steam stations rather than by carrying out the Shannon or any other hydro-electric scheme. That is due to the conditions prevailing at the moment—the extraordinarily low cost of coal and of the machinery that would be required—but one, of course, has no guarantee that these conditions will continue. They were completely different in 1924, when our predecessors decided to proceed with the Shannon Scheme. There is no use, however, speculating on that, because the Shannon Scheme is there, and we can get a substantial increase in generating capacity by extending that scheme, and the cost, of course, of making the extension is substantially less than the cost of erecting steam stations, which would provide an equivalent amount of current. That is a factor which the Board takes into account in determining the manner in which the increased capacity is to be provided.
There are, of course, other considerations which one would take into account, too. Even under present circumstances, if we were determining on a new scheme and choosing between a hydro-electric scheme or a steam station or a number of steam stations, we would have to take factors into account other than financial costs. One of the factors would be the possibility of the financial cost remaining fixed for a length of time, and other factors would be considerations of the supply of coal and the price at which it was likely to be available at all times and so on. These factors might even to-day produce a decision in favour of a hydro-electric system, but now that the hydro-electric scheme is there, there can be no question of the wisdom of proceeding to utilise it to the fullest extent practicable.
But I take it that the Shannon Scheme is working to its full capacity?
Oh, no. The state of partial development existed until last year, and a fourth turbine was installed. It has not yet come into operation. It is there, but because of the abnormal circumstances of last year there was no water to work it. It will be working very shortly—in the course of a week or so—but there is still room for one or, on the basis of the original scheme, two additional turbines at Ardnacrusha.
On that point we will agree to differ, but there is no doubt in the Minister's mind——
I do not like to short circuit the Deputy, but I would remind him that it is not a case of an alternating current of debate between the Minister and himself. The Minister rose to conclude.
I think it would be desirable——
There will be two other stages on which Deputies will have an opportunity of expressing their ideas and questioning the Minister.