asked the Minister for Justice if he will state whether it is proposed to take any action arising out of the demonstration towards a Deputy and delegates to the Fine Gael Convention on the night of the 9th February, 1934, about 10 p.m., by a hostile and disorderly crowd of men, two of whom were caught and brought to a Gárda on duty in Dawson Street; whether any inquiries have been made in the matter, and, if so, what was the nature and result of the inquiries.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Disorder in Dublin.
I have made inquiries into the matter referred to in this question and I have ascertained that nothing occurred in the presence or hearing of the Gárdaí in Dawson Street which would justify the arrest of the two men who were pointed out to them by Deputy Belton and Dr. Hennessy. I am informed that the Deputy and Dr. Hennessy admitted that they were not assaulted or threatened by these men. The names and addresses of these men were taken by the Gardaí and offered to the Deputy. I am satisfied that no further action could properly have been taken by the Gárdaí in the matter.
Arising out of the Minister's reply, did he ascertain whether a crowd followed us from Grafton Street and these men were the advance guard of that crowd? Is he aware that they caught up to us there and they charged us with being members of a murder gang and called us murderers? Probably the next thing would be an assault. We gave that information to the Gárdaí. Is the position this, that the Minister considers that people can go around in groups insulting citizens on the streets of Dublin without any action being taken by the authorities in regard to them? Is that actually the position that the Minister is taking up?
I am not taking up any attitude of the kind. The Deputy stated in the course of a debate here that he had been set upon. The information I have had from the Gárdaí is that the Deputy and another gentleman pointed out two men in Dawson Street, two boys or two men. These two boys denied to the Guards that they were in Wicklow Street at all. The Deputy was then asked by the Guards if he was threatened or assaulted by those two individuals and he said he was not. The other gentleman who was with him said he was not threatened or assaulted. The Gárdaí had no power in such circumstances to do anything except to get the names and addresses of those individuals. They got them and gave them to the Deputy in order that he might take whatever action he liked. The Gárdaí had no power to arrest in such circumstances. If they did they would have been exceeding their duty.
The position is that if a person is walking the streets of Dublin he can be insulted in any conceivable way and if he meets a Guard that Guard has no power in the matter.
What more could the Guards do in the circumstances than they have done? They procured the names and addresses of the two men whom the Deputy pointed out and it was then for the Deputy and the gentleman with him to take action if they so desired and the Guards would be there to give evidence. The Guards asked the Deputy and the other gentleman if they had been threatened or assaulted and both of them replied that they had not. The Guards had no power in such circumstances to arrest. They did all they could by getting the names and addresses and furnishing them to the Deputy so that he could take whatever action he liked.
Am I to understand from the Minister that in future crowds can follow Deputies of this House through the streets calling them murderers and no action will be taken? People followed in that way have no redress except to take the names and addresses of those who follow them and then perhaps charge them in the courts.
If the Deputy was listening to the answer I have given to Deputy Belton he would not come to any such unfounded assumption. I have explained already that these two men were pointed out by Deputy Belton and his friend to the Guards. There was no mob; there were only two of them and they were pointed out by the Deputy to the Guards. He said they were the people who had followed them in Wicklow Street. These two men denied that and the Deputy informed the Guards that he had not been threatened or assaulted. That is very different to the suggestion that they were part of a mob.
Am I to understand that if the Guards had been present and the circumstances detailed by Deputy Belton were taking place, they would have had power to arrest people making use of that language?
If the language used is in the nature of a threat, if the language uttered constitutes a threat or the words are likely to lead to a breach of the peace, the Guards can intervene and arrest.
Does the Minister consider that if a man met him and called him a murderer——
It is not what I consider, but what the law sets out and what the Guards would consider as their defined duties.
Any language likely to lead to a breach of the peace. The Minister says that the Guards could act in those circumstances. I put it to the Minister that if a man is called a murderer or a member of a murder gang when he is walking through the streets of Dublin, it is likely to lead to a breach of the peace.
I am not going to act as the legal adviser of the Deputy. He knows his own position.
I am putting the question in an ordinary commonsense way. The Minister is a legal man. He is here as a Minister and he ought to give a fair, reassuring answer.
If the Deputy made the statement to the Guards that he made under privilege in this House— that he had been set upon—the Guards might have taken a different view of it, but that was not what was stated by the Deputy to the Guards when he met them immediately after the incident took place.
I am prepared to stand by that—set upon. I do not remember using the words.
They will be found in the report of the proceedings.
Those men followed us down Duke Street and the Guards were so informed. There was a crowd after us, but when we caught the two fellows the rest scattered; the mob that was coming round the corner cleared when they saw the Guards.
Is that the supplementary question?
The Minister is perfectly aware that men coming out of the Wicklow Hotel the night before had their heads bludgeoned.
If the Deputy wants legal advice let him ask Fitzgerald-Kenney.