Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Dec 1934

Vol. 54 No. 4

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 67—External Affairs.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £349 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1935, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Gnóthaí Coigríche agus Seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin, maraon le Deontaisí i gCabhair.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £349 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1935, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for External Affairs, and of certain Services administered by that Office including Grants-in-aid.

This Supplementary Estimate is necessary in order to obtain the approval of the Dáil for a grant, made during the present year, to the Statistical Society of Ireland and the Entertainment Committee of the Celtic Congress for the purpose of entertaining distinguished visitors. The entertainment was not provided, primarily, by the State so that it was not possible to make the grant out of the Entertainments sub-head of the Vote. With regard to the details it will be noted that the sum of £62 is the grant-in-aid of the Statistical Society of Ireland and it arises in this way: Originally, the Department of External Affairs had proposed to give an official reception to the delegates of the Celtic Congress in April, 1934, on the occasion of their visit to Dublin. Owing to the greatly regretted death of the American Minister to the Saorstát it was subsequently decided to cancel the official reception and enable a grant of £62 to be made to the Statistical Society to enable them to provide entertainment for the delegates. The other item is a sum of £287 made as a grant-in-aid to the Committee of the Celtic Congress which assembled here in July this year. In response to representations made to the Entertainment Committee it was decided that a grant should be made towards the cost of the entertainment of the delegates. The amount of the Vote, £287, represents portion of the cost to places of historical interest, and incidental expenses.

General Mulcahy

I move that the Supplementary Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. I do that for two very serious reasons. I think that the fact of entertaining both the International Institute of Statistics and the Celtic Congress created an atmosphere which was detrimental to the intellectual integrity of our people and blinds them to certain facts affecting certain vital things at the present moment. Take the Celtic Congress first. The President attended the Celtic Congress and on the opening day, I think, he stressed what is the vital thing affecting us here, and the vital thing that gives interest to the Celtic Congress in its discussions. Quoting from the Press of 10th July, I find that the President:

"...hoped the Congress would lead to new fervour in the pursuit of Gaelic studies until an organised co-operative effort was made to revive the Celtic languages among the people. Special efforts were needed to bring the language into line with the requirements of the age. It is well for us that we have an example of some, at least, of other Celtic peoples to guide us in this task. More vital still was the lead to preserve Irish as the language of every-day life in the small area of our country where it still remains dormant, and to spread it from that area to the rest of the land."

And then he emphasised the fact that

"Alone among the Celtic peoples we have a National Government, a Government which, I assure you, is fully resolved to do all in its power to assist and to spread the restoration of our language. We are prepared, in such measure as may be practicable, to share this advantage with the other Celtic nations."

My objection to entertaining the Celtic Congress here is that it blind-our people to things that exist here and makes them feel that they are attending to things that require attention here. There is a boys' primary all-Irish school here in the City—the only all-Irish boys' school in the City —set up at the instance, and the urgent instance, of parents who are bringing up their children through the medium of Irish. In the third and fourth standards there are only 82 boys getting primary education in these standards through the medium of Irish, and there is only one teacher in charge of that instruction. In the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth standards of that school there is only one teacher looking after the work of these standards.

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order, Sir, I was greatly interestd to see how the Deputy was going to make an extract from a speech of the President relevant to this discussion, but it is obvious now that he is discussing a matter that should properly be discussed on the Vote for the Department of Education.

General Mulcahy

On the point of order that was put to you, Sir, that is, as to whether or not I am entitled to discuss, on this Estimate, the policy and the wisdom of entertaining societies like these here, I wish to draw very brief attention to facts of vital importance to the country that are obscured by the very action of entertaining the Celtic Congress here. I wish to draw attention briefly to three or four facts, and I want to argue that we are blinding ourselves here to what is the vital thing, if there is anything vital, in the work and the deliberations of the Celtic Congress.

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order, Sir, the Deputy has stated that he wishes to raise, on this Estimate, the desirability of entertaining people—distinguished visitors—who come here. I pointed out that one of the reasons why we asked leave to submit this Supplementary Estimate to the Dáil was that, as the entertainment had not been provided directly by the State, it did not come strictly within the sub-head of the Vote. The Dáil has already, in adopting the Estimate for External Affairs, decided as to the propriety of entertaining distinguished visitors here. I submit, Sir, that if the Deputy is going to discuss that question now, he is out of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have informed the Deputy of the position regarding the motion in his name on the Order Paper. The purpose of a motion to refer back, in relation to a main Estimate, is to afford the House an opportunity of discussing policy, but in a Supplementary Estimate nothing may be discussed but the purpose for which the money is intended. In this case, debate is confined to the giving of a grant-in-aid to certain societies for the entertainment of members of similar societies visiting the Saorstát.

General Mulcahy

Sir, in your letter to me, you said:—

"... In the case of a Supplementary Estimate debate is confined to the purpose for which the sum is required. Therefore, the only aspect of policy that can be debated in connection with Vote No. 67 is the policy of giving grants-in-aid to Irish societies to enable them to entertain visiting members of similar or kindred societies from other countries."

An Ceann Comhairle

Quite so.

General Mulcahy

And I am objecting to the giving of Grants-in-Aid to two particular societies.

An Ceann Comhairle

And, so far, the Deputy is in order.

General Mulcahy

I am saying that the reason why I object to the giving of grants to the International Institute of Statistics on the one hand and to the Celtic Congress on the other hand is that the fact that we take these bodies here and entertain them blinds our people to vital facts that are lying around them, makes them feel that they are doing work which, in fact, they are not doing. I have referred to a statement by the President at the opening of the Congress where he drew attention to the really vital matter, or what ought to be the vital matter, in the whole work of the Celtic Congress, and that is the preservation of the Irish language as the language of every-day life in the small area where it remains dormant and the spreading of it from that area to the country as a whole. I also drew attention to the fact that the President had pointed out that the co-operation of countries which had Celtic languages was necessary but that we stood pre-eminent among such countries by reason of the fact that we had a national Government here, a Government which was fully resolved to do all in its power to assist and to spread the restoration of our language.

I say that doing work of this particular kind tends to blind our people to facts that are around them. It has, in fact, blinded our people to the fact that the only primary boys' school which is all Irish in the City of Dublin has 82 boys in its third and fourth standards with only one teacher in charge of them, and with only one teacher in charge of the four ranks above that—the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth standards.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy, on a moment's consideration, will realise that he is discussing in detail the policy of the education Department. On similar lines, he might argue that the giving of this grant-in-aid blinded our people to many other facts and might proceed to discuss the policy of other departments which would be equally irrelevant.

General Mulcahy

I do not wish to discuss the policy of the Department, but to put four or five facts together briefly. First of all, that there is only one all-Irish primary school in the City of Dublin and that in a school alongside there are 200 children waiting to get into a preparatory school, and that in another school on the south side of the river 200 children are waiting to get into that school, while there are Irish-speaking parents asking for a school who are not getting it. We are bringing over here residents of other countries who have a language problem and we are fooling ourselves and our people by feasts and pageantry and talk that we are saving the Irish language here when the Minister for Education knows very well, as a result of his experience of the Irish-speaking districts, that the parents in the Irish-speaking districts are not sending their children to Irish-speaking schools to the extent they ought to send them, while here in the City of Dublin there are many people prepared to go after a Unionist hunt and find a private school down in Wexford and bait it because it is not teaching Irish, and Irish-speaking parents with homes in the City of Dublin are asked to send their boys to the one primary school to which I have referred.

Parliamentary Secretary to the President (Mr. Little)

On a point of order, Sir, is not this rather flouting the ruling of the Chair?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a discussion of the details of administration of the Department of Education, and that is not in order.

General Mulcahy

I am sorry, Sir, and I merely wish to say that I oppose bringing over these people, because it blinds us to facts that we ought to know and see in front of us, and makes us, with all this pageantry and talk, believe that we are doing something for the country. I leave the Celtic Congress now and come to the International Institute of Statistics. We entertained that Institute here, or at least the Statistical and Social Society of Enquiry did, and we are asked to give a grant to it. Very rightly, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, at a lunch, praised the Statistics Branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce and pointed out the great assistance and co-operation they had received from the International Institute. The President of the Statistical Society expressed the hope that as a result of the visit of the members of the International Institute they would be able to appreciate the statistics which their Minister and their own department produced for their information as well as for the information of those at home.

Here we had a gathering of foreigners who came to this country and who talked about statistics, and, I the importance of statistics, and, I say, rightly so. They praised the work of the Statistical Department of our Department of Industry and Commerce, but the work of that Department is sat upon and choked down. It is held up and not given to this country by the Minister. I do not think that we can afford to spend public money to blind our people throughout the country and to let them feel that the Government in power to-day has an admiration and a respect for statistics. It is quite true, as the Minister has stated, that the Statistical Department here had forced them to review their preconceived ideas of the resources, possibilities and developments of the country, but things that would help our people to realise the possibilities of Government policy—vital statistics with regard to industry, even with regard to employment—are withheld from the people. I do not think that this House should vote any money that would help the present Government in getting the people to think that they are telling them truthfully what the Statistics Department is turning out, or that they have any respect for much of the stuff that is talked with regard to statistics and their value, at these meetings. We can do without the help of international statistics or international institutes if we rely on our own Statistics Department at home. If we are going to have self-sufficiency, let us turn our eyes inwards to the statistics that we can get at home, and let us have these statistics. I am opposed to voting this money, because it is intended to show that the Government are getting statistics which they are not getting or are not giving to the public.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I do not pretend to know a great deal about these societies. They may be very worthy, and it may be desirable that they should be entertained. I object to this Vote because this country is already legally committed to the paying out of a sum of money which should really cover such work and such entertainment as is sought to be provided for in this Supplementary Estimate. I cannot say that it is specifically and formally voted for that purpose, but ten years' tradition in this country, following on a much longer tradition in other countries, established that though the Governor-General might have what would appear to very many people as the very large salary of £10,000, it was well understood and was not to be questioned that that £10,000 was not really salary, and that the major part of it should be used for such a purpose as is indicated in the Estimate, namely, that a certain person should entertain distinguished visitors and should act as host on behalf of the nation. The legal salary of the Governor-General at this moment is £10,000. True, we are informed—misinformed, I should say—in a document issued to us that the salary of the Governor-General is £2,000, free of income tax. Legally, in this country, there is no such thing as a salary free of income tax, and therefore that statement is clearly false as issued.

The law in this country provides that the Governor-General shall receive £10,000 a year. He, therefore, has the right at this moment, or at any later time after he has resigned, of enforcing that legal claim, and our Government, if they are ordered, must pay that full amount. That figure was much canvassed in this country when it was actually paid over to the Governor-General, but there was no advertence made to the fact that it did not go into his pocket or that it was used for such purposes as this, which the Government now indicates as a very desirable purpose. The members of that Government, which is committed to pay that £10,000, and so to relieve the State of such expenses as are indicated in this Estimate, are in a somewhat similar position to the Governor-General and, just as he can claim his legal salary when he resigns, they also can claim back the salary which the State is committed to pay them. At this moment we are paying to the Governor-General who, presumably, is fulfilling no function at all, a sum which is based on the assumption that he is going to provide such entertainment as is included in this Estimate. The Government now asks us to pass this further Vote, to vote money for such things as were by tradition and by all equity to be provided for out of the Governor-General's salary.

Legally, the position at this moment is that we are paying, or are due to pay, at any time the Governor-General likes to enforce his claim, whether during his period of office or after his period of office, a sum of £10,000. On top of that we are asked to provide for things that the Governor-General is given £10,000 to provide for. Therefore, I think it is a scandal that we should be asked, when the country is committed to the payment of that enormous salary, to tax the Irish people and to relieve the Governor-General of fulfilling functions and of incurring expenses out of his salary which it was clearly indicated he should so incur, after we have had a ten years' tradition established in this country that it was his function and his real duty to provide such things as are to be voted now in this Estimate. Long before the State came into existence that tradition was well established in other Dominions. I think the Dáil has no right whatever, as custodians of the public welfare of this country, to vote this money, which is merely making the people of the country pay through taxes what they already pay for in the Governor-General's legal salary.

The President

Deputy Mulcahy made a valiant effort to introduce the question of Irish.

General Mulcahy

It was a very serious matter.

The President

It was a very difficult task indeed to try to bring into the Estimate what he wished to raise. I am wondering why, if there is a matter of that seriousness here, he could not get other opportunities of raising it.

General Mulcahy

If the Dáil were meeting more often we could, and we may.

The President

If there is any basis for the case he has raised, then he can raise it in its proper place and it will be listened to sympathetically. The Ceann Comhairle's ruling puts it out of order to follow him. I have to confess that I had no idea that the subject was going to be raised, and I have had no opportunity of examining the details, so that, even if it were in order, I should not have been able to follow the Deputy into the details to ascertain to what extent he was misinformed. The fact simply that there is a grievance in one direction should be no excuse for refusing to make this grant. It is suggested that this entertainment is blinding the eyes of the people to the realities. I cannot look at it in that way, and I do not think any reasonable person could look at it in that way. The Celtic Congress has a special meaning. It is the coming together of representatives of the Celtic peoples who reside in different countries. They go periodically to the different countries. They came here on this occasion, as they came formerly in 1925, and, just as the previous Administration in 1925 made a grant for this purpose, so we are making a grant this year for the self-same reason. The only difference, it appears to me, is that we recognised that we could not make the grant out of the Vote and that it would have to be brought before the Dáil for special sanction. I think on the previous occasion that the incorrectness of doing it otherwise was not appreciated. My recollection is that on that occasion it was paid out of the Entertainment Vote, but quite incorrectly. If we had in the Entertainment Vote a larger sum than we have, it would have been quite easy to provide this sum from it, but we would nevertheless have been compelled to come to the Dáil to seek its approval for this expenditure, as we are doing now, quite independent of any moneys that might have been at our disposal from the Entertainment Fund.

I think I can leave Deputy Mulcahy's point at that. Now, coming to Deputy Fitzgerald, the Deputy is fond of bringing forward new theories. He has a new theory now that if a gift is made it can be revoked at will. The Governor-General has made a gift of practically £8,000 of the £10,000.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I do not see how that can be maintained.

The President

How what can be maintained?

Mr. Fitzgerald

If the Governor-General's salary is £10,000, then this State claims from him income tax on that £10,000, which would be something like £3,000. That means to say that his salary, at this moment, would be something over £5,000 a year. I understand that the Government here give him £10,000 and that he, in order to preclude himself from taking legal action afterwards, hands back a certain amount of that to the Government. If that is so, then when he receives that £10,000 he, by all the law of this State, is responsible for the payment of income tax on that amount. The Government issues a paper which is to inform the Irish people of what the Governor-General gets, but if the course that seems to me to be indicated by the President is true, then the Government issues a false statement with regard to the Governor-General's salary, which would clearly be something over £5,000, when it says it is £2,000.

The President

The Deputy, of course, is talking nonsense, and he knows it. This is not the time to go into details on this any more than it would be to deal in detail with an Estimate on educational matters. The fact, however, is that the cost of the Governor-General's Department has been reduced to less than one-sixth of what it was. The position, leaving the income tax part of it aside——

Mr. Fitzgerald

Why?

The President

Because it is dealt with and has been dealt with separately. With regard to the Deputy's point as to the money that is being given back to the Treasury, there would be no legal right on the part of the Governor-General to claim it back at any time any more than if I make a gift freely I can revoke that gift later when I might think it would be well for me to get it back. A gift is a gift.

Mr. Fitzgerald

If what the President says is so and if the Governor-General at the moment receives £10,000 and makes a gift of £8,000 to the Treasury, then the Revenue Commissioners are not doing their duty, because he is due to pay to them income tax on the £10,000. If that is not so, then the gift he makes to the Treasury is the difference between £2,000, plus income tax, deducted from the £10,000. The President says he makes a gift of £8,000. His legal salary is not £8,000. His legal salary is only the amount that is represented by £10,000, minus income tax and super-tax on £10,000.

An Ceann Comhairle

The President again to conclude.

The President

As I was saying, this is not the time to raise without any notice details with regard to any particular Estimate other than on the particular items which we have here. The fact is that the Governor-General gives back to the Treasury whatever balance is left of the £10,000, except the £2,000 that he is actually receiving.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Plus income tax.

The President

Whatever way you have it, the Governor-General gives back everything except £2,000.

Mr. Fitzgerald

Plus income tax.

The President

£2,000 he receives net. That is the position. I know the Revenue Commissioners' devotion to duty sufficiently well to feel certain that whatever the law demands in regard to the question of income tax is fully satisfied. Otherwise, the arrangement could not have been made. With regard to this particular item, the Dáil is asked to vote a sum in connection with the Celtic Congress because of the fact that it was advisable to give it as a Grant-in-Aid in that particular form. As regards the Statistical Society, the Minister for Finance explained the circumstances in which it was decided, that instead of giving a reception from the State directly out of the Vote, this sum should be given as a grant-in-aid. In those circumstances it would have been unbecoming if the State itself had given the reception.

With regard to entertainment in general, I do not think that that question arises, apart from the question of the Governor-General. I think that when the Estimate is being debated we will be able to prove that not merely was there a saving to the State of the large amounts that have appeared in the Governor-General's Vote, but that even apart from that there was a saving over and above these amounts on entertainment given by the State in the past. I do not think there can be complaints from any side as regards any tendency to lavishness on the part of the Government.

Question put: "That the Estimate be referred back.

The Committee divided:—Tá, 49; Níl, 63.

Tá.

• Anthony, Richard.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Bourke, Séamus.
• Brennan, Michael.
• Burke, James Michael.
• Burke, Patrick.
• Coburn, James.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Costello, John Aloysius.
• Curran, Richard.
• Davis, Michael.
• Desmond, William.
• Dillon, James M.
• Dolan, James Nicholas.
• Doyle, Peadar S.
• Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
• Fagan, Charles.
• Finlay, John.
• Fitzgerald, Desmond.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Good, John.
• Haslett, Alexander.
• Holohan, Richard.
• Keating, John.
• MacDermot, Frank.
• MacEoin, Seán.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• McGovern, Patrick.
• McGuire, James Ivan.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Minch, Sydney B.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, James Edward.
• Nally, Martin.
• O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
• O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Mahony, The.
• O'Neill, Eamonn.
• O'Reilly, John Joseph.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Redmond, Bridget Mary.
• Reidy, James.
• Roddy, Martin.
• Rogers, Patrick James.
• Rowlette, Robert James.
• Wall, Nicholas.

Níl.

• Aiken, Frank.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Blaney, Neal.
• Boland, Gerald.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Brady, Brian.
• Brady, Seán.
• Breathnach, Cormac.
• Breen, Daniel.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Carty, Frank.
• Cleary, Mícheál.
• Concannon, Helena.
• Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
• Crowley, Timothy.
• Davin, William.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Doherty, Hugh.
• Everett, James.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Norton, William.
• O Briain, Donnchadh.
• O'Doherty, Joseph.
• O'Dowd, Patrick.
• O'Grady, Seán.
• O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• Pattison, James P.
• Pearse, Margaret Mary.
• Rice, Edward.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• Geoghegan, James.
• Gibbons, Seán.
• Goulding, John.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hayes, Seán.
• Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
• Houlihan, Patrick.
• Kehoe, Patrick.
• Kelly, James Patrick.
• Kelly, Thomas.
• Keyes, Michael.
• Kissane, Eamonn.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• Little, Patrick John.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• Maguire, Ben.
• Maguire, Conor Alexander.
• Moane, Edward.
• Moore, Séamus.
• Moylan, Seán.
• Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
• Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Martin.
• Ryan, Robert.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Victory, James.
• Walsh, Richard.
• Ward, Francis C.

Tellers:—Tá:Deputies Doyle and Bennett; Níl: Deputies Little and Smith.

Question declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to.