So that after we have finished the present plan, that £6,500,000 more will not, in my opinion, complete the task that remains to be done and it is just as well to have that known and to let the House and the country realise what it will have to face. I think from what I know of the feeling in this House with regard to housing and from what I know of the feeling outside, so far as it is vocal in local authorities, and of private opinion generally, the country is quite satisfied to pay the price to get the housing problem adequately and properly dealt with.
I do believe that grants at at least the present rate will be necessary until this terrible problem has been brought within measurable distance of completion. Deputy Norton spoke at considerable length on the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act and made reference to the fact that it had not been put into operation by a number of local authorities.
I have circularised all local authorities which would be empowered under the Act to put it into operation. My officials—inspectors of the Department—who go around the country, have been informed of the views of the Minister and of his anxiety to get this Act adopted, and as a result of the encouragement we have given, it has been adopted by many local authorities in the last two or three years, but, as Deputy Norton knows, the Minister for Local Government is not a dictator. I do not know whether the Deputy would be inclined to act the dictator if he were in my shoes, but he might change his notions on these matters if he happened to be Minister for Local Government for a while. Local authorities have their own views and many of them will not allow themselves to be pushed, even in a right direction, by the Minister for Local Government.
What I say of local authorities in general applies with equal force to the Dublin Corporation. This much I can say of the Dublin Corporation, that, since the Act was originally passed by the British Parliament, it has done well in the way in which it has generously extended loans to private persons and public utility societies under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. It is true, however, that in the last year, the City Manager has had qualms of conscience on the question of extending further facilities to private persons and public utility societies under that Act. I have had talks with him on the subject and I have a considerable amount of sympathy with his point of view, because I want, and the House wants primarily, I think, the question of the housing of the poorest classes of the population dealt with first. We want the people who are in the cellar dwellings taken out of them; we want the people who are in the slums that we know in Dublin taken out of those slums; and we want the people who are in rooms in houses that are over-crowded taken out of these over-crowded rooms.
It is my view, and the view, I think, of the majority of the people who have given consideration to the matter, that these aspects of the housing problem must be tackled first. In the secondary place, comes the almost equally urgent problem of providing houses for people who are at present living in housing accommodation which is unsuited to them, but who are there only because they cannot get proper houses. There are decent artisans and there are many of what are known in some places as "white collar workers" who are living in single rooms or sharing rooms in small houses and who are able to pay an economic rent, but who, up to the present, cannot get housing accommodation. I would like, and I know that the City Manager would like, to be able to help these people, but he has put it to me over and over again that his first problem is the housing of those who are in the worst condition, and, as I say, I have considerable sympathy with his point of view. I have, however, urged upon him the desirability of not ceasing the operation of the Small Dwellings Act, so far as the Dublin Corporation is concerned, and I know that that matter is getting his consideration.
There was some truth in what Deputy Norton said about the restrictions that were suggested to be put upon the utilisation of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. But I do not think that the suggestions mentioned by Deputy Norton were ever put into operation. Deputy Norton also referred to the question of delay. There has been considerable delay in some housing schemes, and complaints have from time to time reached my Department on the matter. Whenever we got complaints we sent officials of the Department to the particular scheme and got into touch with the local authorities' officials and contractors. We are always ready to hear complaints of that kind and anxious to help in expediting schemes. Any influence that the Department of Local Government and Public Health and its officials can use in helping to get over difficulties and to speed up house-building will be exerted towards that end. The speeding-up of house-building is badly needed in town and country.
The question of building the houses in brick and stone versus concrete was referred to. For my own part I would very much prefer that houses should be built of brick or stone rather than in concrete, whether blocks or mass concrete. Of course, mass concrete is the least desirable of any of these four kinds of material. But there are not many places in the country where bricks are available. Where bricks are available for the ordinary labourer's cottage or house or small dwelling for the artisan built in town or city it adds a not inconsiderable sum to the cost. I regard it as my job within certain strict limitations to get as much value as possible out of every pound of public money that is spent on housing or indeed on any other purpose under the Local Government Department. I, myself, and anybody who bears responsibility must examine very closely every scheme put up to us; look into the cost and see what amount of housing is going to be provided for every thousand pounds.
But we have to look at it also from the aspect of the tenant. Every £10 additional cost on one of those labourers' cottages costing round about £300, some of them considerably less, means an additional sixpence a week to the tenant in the way of rent. That is a very heavy burden. These things have to be taken into consideration. But there is no objection in the Department—provided the additional cost is not too great—to having these houses built by the local authorities in brick or stone. There are places in the country where this has been done. If I remember aright, I think it was in Macroom that one of our housing schemes was built of stone with practically no additional cost. There was, of course, some additional cost but it was not very much. There are other places too where stone is available and there the houses were built of stone. Provided that the additional cost is not too much per house there is no predisposition in the Department against building them of stone. My own view is that where bricks can be used, I would prefer to have them used, but with the limitations that I have just mentioned.
I think it was Deputy Norton who also referred to the question of building small houses in towns. We have already approved several schemes for small houses in the small towns and villages in different parts of the country. If I am not mistaken some of these schemes have already been put into operation in Wexford.
Deputy Belton talked about the necessity for cheaper money. I would be very happy indeed if we could get cheaper money provided at much less cost for all the local authorities in the country. This question of borrowing money adds considerably to the difficulty of the Government and of the local authorities. In my capacity as Minister for Local Government I have not got to deal with the raising of the loans, but I know that this matter of the cost of the loans receives the very earnest consideration of the Ministry. I do not know if Deputy Belton has any practical suggestions to offer as to how money could be got. However, going into that question would probably get us into suggestions and discussions of the kind that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would not permit on this Vote. However, other opportunities will arise, and if the Deputy has any suggestions to offer as to how to get cheaper money I, for one, will be very happy to hear him.
We come now to the money provided for free fuel. There was a sum of £25,000 voted. Of that sum £12,723 11s. 8d. was spent. Deputy Mulcahy mentioned that £13,000 was the amount allocated to Dublin. The figure was £13,238. There was spent of that a sum of £5,670 1s. 5d.