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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Jun 1935

Vol. 57 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 58—Transport Services.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,148 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1936, chun íocaíochtaí bhaineann le Seirbhísí Iompair in Eirinn.

That a sum not exceeding £1,148 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1936, for payments connected with Irish Transport Services.

There are, in this year, only two sub-heads in this Estimate. The first sub-head provides for payments in respect of steamer services. It will be remembered that, as explained last year, payment was fixed at £300 a year in respect of the Galway-Arran steamer service. The other items represent a payment of £1,500 which we propose to make for each of three years, commencing this year, to the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway, in order to assist them in the reorganisation of their transport services. As Deputies are aware, this company has had to be subsidised by the State, both by the Government of the Saorstát and by the Government of Northern Ireland, for a number of years. However, we have got them to the position where they have got a scheme of reorganisation which will take three years to complete, and we are undertaking to make this payment for that period, the Government of Northern Ireland undertaking to make payment for a corresponding period. At the end of that time, we hope that the line will be established on an economic basis and that the subsidies will cease. The whole circumstances were explained to the Dáil last year in connection with this Vote.

Will the Minister state the reason for the reduction from £600 to £300 in the payment in respect of the Galway-Arran steamer service?

That is explained by the fact that, in the meantime, an agreement was made with the Company by which a certain liability of theirs to the State was wiped out and an arrangement made under which the subsidy was fixed at £300 a year.

The Minister is probably aware of the fact that the prices for cattle and sheep and other agricultural produce have diminished very considerably and that, in consequence, the incidence of the charge in respect of journeyings to and fro is of much greater weight on the people than in former years. I understand that a proposal was put before the Ministry that, until prices for these products are improved, some reduction should take place in the fares of passengers to and fro, but that the Department refused to do so. I do not know if the Minister is personally aware of anything of that sort having taken place, but perhaps he would look into it. There is one other matter to which I would like to refer. I am not sure whether it is in order to discuss it here. I notice that in page 264 of the Estimates for Public Services, there is mention of repayments by the Cork Borough Corporation and the Electricity Supply Board under Section 15 of the Cork Tramways (Employees' Compensation) Act, 1933. As far as I know, that Act has worked satisfactorily except in one particular case. The particular case to which I refer is that of a man who was the first man to drive a tram on the streets of Cork, some forty years ago, and the last man to bring in his tram to the shed on the night that the Cork Tramways ceased operation. He died, however, before the time came when it was possible for him to make application for compensation. He had given all that service. I have had a good deal of correspondence with the Minister on this matter, as I think he will remember, and it is the only case I know of, of a man who had that number of years' service, and who died before it was possible for him to make application for compensation, where his family have got nothing at all. That man left a widow and some children. In so far as he had earned the right to the compensation, he had a greater claim to it than anybody else. Had the Act been passed a month or two earlier, he would have been able to make a claim and his family would have had the benefit of it.

It is probable the Minister will take the view that once you expand a case of that sort, the door gets wider and wider. In this case, however, I think that what might be called a generous interpretation of the Act might be given. As a matter of fact, I think I supplied the Minister with what amounts to a legal opinion on this case, and pointed out that a similar case was not likely to arise. However, to think that a man, who gave all those years of service, should be debarred from compensation simply because he did not live a month or two longer, seems to me undoubtedly to be a case for investigation. I think that the fact that that man's family is deprived of any compensation is deplorable. It may be said, of course, that, by reason of his death, his expenses and so on ceased to exist and that it did not cost anything to keep him. This, however, is an exceptional case. I may say that the other cases, broadly speaking, were generously dealt with, and at one time it was intended to give compensation only to men who had had a certain number of years' service. This man, however, had the largest number of years' service, and I think that the Minister would be well advised, in a case of that sort, to have the case reopened and reconsidered. No cost will devolve upon the State. The Electricity Supply Board will not be affected in their finances by any case of this kind, and I understand that the Cork Corporation are willing to bear the cost.

I am aware of the case to which Deputy Cosgrave has referred. The fact is, however, that the Bill does not give us power to pay compensation in such a case and, in order to pay compensation in such a case, it would be necessary to introduce another and special Act. In any case, we decided, when the Bill was originally brought before the House, that we were only called upon to provide compensation for people who were unemployed in consequence of the cessation of the tramways and that no other class should be included. Employment with the Tramways Company, if I remember correctly, was not in any sense pensionable; nor was there any provision made for the granting of pension or gratuity to the widows or dependents of the employees of the Tramways Company. The widow is no worse off than she would have been if the tramways had continued running until her husband died. However, I agree that it is a hard case, but there is an old saying that hard cases make bad law, and the fact is that the law which the Dáil decided to enact to deal with the particular problem created by the cessation of the Cork tramways did not provide for cases of that kind. The persons who became entitled to make claims for compensation under that Act were the persons still living on the date fixed and unemployed on that date. No power was given to the successors of deceased persons to make a claim.

While there may not be a law for it, there is no prohibition against it. It simply amounts to a generous interpretation. Had the man lived until 1st October—and that would mean, I think, about a month, or possibly five weeks, longer than he did live—and had he signed his form and died the moment after he had signed it, compensation would be payable. I think it is unreasonable to his family in this case. I have not got the particulars of the case I am speaking of; I am speaking only from recollection and I should not have remembered it except for this appropriation here. This is a case in respect of which there will not be a parallel under the Act, and it is all the harder by reason of the fact that the man was the first driver and the last to bring in his vehicle on that particular night. It is that particular man's case which made the strength of the compensation case here. In my view, there is no prohibition.

There is, very definitely.

What is the prohibition? The Comptroller and Auditor-General does not come into this; the Electricity Supply Board and the Cork Corporation are the bodies concerned. There is absolutely no prohibition. The Minister may have some knowledge of normal law but he has no knowledge whatever of theology.

Does the Deputy propose that I should exceed the limits of the statute?

I say that the Minister often gave a more liberal interpretation in other directions.

I always endeavour to give the most liberal interpretation.

The Minister has often given a far more liberal interpretation. I have done it myself, and I would be justified in doing so in a case of this sort. The particular hardship imposed on the family is that the man was awarded a pension, not to live from the date of the passing of the Act until 1st October—that was not what he got it for—but for his length of service. It is quite possible that the circumstances of the case arose from the fact that he had such long service and was disturbed when it ceased. Had he lived for five weeks, signed, and then dropped dead immediately after, there would be a case for the widow. Had it been that under the Act application could be made at an earlier date, he would have got it. But in so far as any service of his went towards qualifying him for a pension—and it was a service of 40 years, although I may be five or ten years out—he gave all that, and I was astonished and aghast at the Minister when I heard of the case, because I know he is not finicky about certain things. One has only to read his speeches to see how generous he is in other matters—abuse and that sort of thing—and a man so disposed would normally exculpate himself for the larger offences if he were to be more generous in a matter of this kind in which the State is not affected by one penny. It will not affect the representatives of the Cork Corporation, and certainly will not diminish the profits of the Electricity Supply Board.

If there is such a thing as a soft-hearted lawyer in the service of the Government, all the soft-hearted lawyers whom we have in our service were consulted and asked if it were possible to put upon that Act an interpretation which would make legal the payment which Deputy Cosgrave desires in this case and the softest-hearted of them could not make the payment legal. The Act was quite specific——

Who was he?

——and deprives us of power to make the payment.

We have the hardhearted ones on this side and I consulted them, and I will accept their information anywhere. Under no conceivable set of circumstances could they interpret the Act in the way in which the Minister and his soft-hearted lawyers interpreted it.

They must be bad lawyers.

In any case, I will give the Minister an amending Bill which I have drawn up and there will be no question of it passing through the House. It is not a question of an interpretation of the law. If the Minister agrees with me that the man's service qualified him, the mere phraseology and technicology of the draftsman ought not to interfere with him. He gave the service. It was his case which could be made the case for the introduction of the measure.

Suppose he had died a week before the service was stopped——

That is another matter.

——what different position would the widow be in?

My case is that he completed the service. Had this Act gone through the House as originally framed and not extended to bring in persons who had shorter service, it might have been law in time to allow that man to make his application. Deputy Anthony, who was the representative in Cork, made a very good case, which I supported, in relation to enlarging the scope and including a greater number of men. The Minister, at first, objected, but subsequently agreed to it. Here is the man above all others who is entitled to this compensation, but because of a technicality, because of his not being alive on a particular date to put his name to a document, his family are penalised. I can give the Minister a copy of the Bill I have drawn up to validate the whole business. If he cannot get these soft-headed lawyers to reverse their opinion, I can tell him that the hardest-headed lawyer in this country has given me the contrary opinion. It is only postponing it because it will be done later on.

Vote put and agreed to.
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