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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Jun 1935

Vol. 57 No. 8

Adjournment—Sale of Seized Cattle

On yesterday's Order Paper, there appeared a question in my name addressed to the Minister for Justice in which I drew his attention to the fact that a sheriff's officer paid for and bought 89 cattle for the sum of £90, which subsequently realised over £700 in Belfast, and, secondly, asking if the Minister would direct sheriffs in future to offer livestock at public sales in lots not exceeding six beasts, in order to ensure that excessive loss would not be inflicted on the owners of property offered for sale. In asking him to give that instruction, I was asking him to do no more than to insist on the statute law of this country being observed by the officials of the Government because the Court Enforcements Order Act, and other Acts controlling the method whereby seized goods shall be sold and realised for the payment of debts, provides that the goods must be sold by the sheriff or his officer in such a way as to realise the largest possible sum for the owner of the goods.

The Minister said in reply to me that he had no doubt that if the proper representations are made in the matter to under-sheriffs at the proper time and in the proper way, such representations will receive reasonable and fair consideration. I am frequently charged in this House—falsely charged but nevertheless charged—with making general allegations without producing specific proof. To date, I am glad to say, I have always been able to follow up a general allegation with a specific case, to illustrate in detail whatever allegations I have brought before the House, and I intend to do that on this occasion, as I have done in the past. I intend to do it by reading to the House now a letter addressed by a farmer from County Cork to the Bishop of his diocese and a copy of which has been sent to me.

In reference to this case?

In reference precisely to the seizures that have taken place in Cork and to the sale that has taken place there in bulk resulting in an excessive loss, in a case where representations were made in the matter to the under-sheriff at the proper time and in the proper way, and such representations did not receive the reasonable and fair consideration which the Minister said he was satisfied they would have received had they been made. The letter, which is addressed from Leitrim, Kilworth, County Cork, is as follows:—

"I take the opportunity of writing certain particulars, knowing that you take a keen interest in the country, and in the awful plight of the farming community at the present time. Last Saturday morning,"

the letter is dated 22nd June, 1935,

"the Land Commission Flying Squad visited me at 7.30 o'clock, fully equipped with lorries full of armed men, with rifles and revolvers. They took 16 milch cows, leaving two that were practically useless to rear the young calves which I had not had the heart to slaughter. They also took my working horses, leaving me helpless to do any bit of work during the year, and what sheep and lambs were in the place—23 in all. They then went on to an outside farm of mine, and stripped it of every living animal. They took off that farm 45 cattle, 32 sheep and 5 valuable horses. The whole of the stock taken from me was put up for sale on Monday in one lot horses, cattle, sheep, and a saddle and a winkers. A friend of mine, who is a reputable person, went there with the object of buying back the stock for me, and when the Government agent bid £75 my friend bid £75 5/-, but his bid was refused and the lot was knocked down to the Government agent at the original bid of £75."

What more rational representation could be made to the sheriff's officer than to offer him a bid in excess of the Government agent's bid? That offer was made. The bid was refused, and the stock, which I have enumerated, was knocked down for £75. The letter goes on:—

"This all happened in a few seconds. After the sale a number of my friends undertook to find the money for me to meet the full demand of the sheriff, including costs, and I offered to pay the full amount, but my offer was refused. Surely, it is downright robbery to deprive me of practically the whole of my means for the sum of £75, and the case is made very much worse by the refusal of the Government agent to return the stock to me when it was made possible for me to meet the demand."

Did the Deputy say that the owner offered to pay cash?

Friends gathered around him and said that, in the circumstances, they would offer to put up the money to meet the debt, but the agent refused to return the goods. He said that he got them for £75 and he would stick to them.

Was this at the sale?

The sale took place; all the stock I have described was put up, together with a saddle and winkers. The Government agent bid £75. The friend of the farmer who writes this letter said: "I bid £75 and 5/-." The sheriff's officer said: "I will not accept that bid. I knock down all to the Government agent for £75." Then the friends of the farmer gathered around and said: "Well, this is an unsatisfactory sale. To make an end of the business we will offer to pay his debt for him to the sheriff, and give those goods back to the man." The Government agent, however, said: "I will not give back the goods. I bought them for £75, and I am going to stick to them." In his letter the man says:—

"Surely, it is downright robbery to deprive me of practically the whole of my means for the sum of £75, and the case is made very much worse by the refusal of the Government agent to return the stock to me when it was made possible by my neighbours for me to meet the demand. To make the position worse, there were three of my children sick in bed, the eldest being 9 years, and the youngest 2 years. My wife was under the doctor's care, and the visit of the squad gave her such a shock that she is now in a state of prostration."

He then goes on to deal with the general condition of the country, and so forth.

The case I want to make to the Minister is this: Those are all law-abiding men, who, for generations, have been the backbone of the country. They are honest men. They are men whose credit has always been good. They are the type of men who never defaulted on their legitimate commitments at any time. This is a family man, with a young growing family. He is apparently hard-working. He has horses, sheep and cattle. He tries his hand at everything. He is anxious to pay his way. In another part of the letter he says:—

"I paid £112 in rates, and I had to leave my family without many essentials in order to provide that money. I sold 12 cattle at the last fair in Mitchelstown at a very bad price."

He then goes on to explain that there was a tariff of £6 on each of the cattle, and that that interfered with the price. He was not a man who tried to run away from his obligations. He was ready to tighten his belt, and not only to do that but to deprive his family of what he felt they were entitled to have, in order to find money to pay his rates. That man had not got the money to pay the land annuities. He was willing to take out and sell his stock at a sacrifice, and he did sell it a sacrifice in order to try and raise the money, but here he was with cattle, calves, sheep and horses, and he could not sell any of them. The calves were not worth taking out. If he did take them out he would be left there with all the cattle and the milk; you cannot sell butter now without a licence and there is a 4d. levy on it. The man could not possibly raise the money in any way to meet his commitment.

The sheriff's officer comes out. He does not take a modest and reasonable proportion of the man's stock; he takes everything. He leaves that man in the condition that he will not only be unable to meet his commitments this year, but that he will never be able to meet his commitments again; his entire stock-in-trade is gone. That is not all. He brings all that stock into the pound. All the stock which I have described to the House here to-day was worth, on a conservative estimate, £800 or £900. Probably, if this man's valuation of his five horses was a fair one, his property was worth £1,200. Let us take an average figure, and say that all that stock together, prudently sold, would be worth £1,000. £1,000 worth of stock —the entire stock-in-trade and means of livelihood of a man who has got a wife and young family—is taken from him, and sold to a bailiff for £75, the bid of his friend for £75 5s. being refused. The man is left destitute, with his wife and children to provide for.

What was the amount of the debt?

The amount of the debt is not stated, but it was for land annuities, and when we see £75 taken by the sheriff we may assume that that is approximately the amount that was due. It was a figure in that neighbourhood, or else some endeavour would have been made to raise a larger sum.

It is a pity——

I welcome Deputy Donnelly's interventions. I recognise that they are intended to be helpful, and to elicit the facts.

It is a pity the friends did not get around him before the seizure took place.

I fully realise that, but the case I want to make is this: when the auctioneer had that £1,000 worth of stock in the saleyard, was there any reason in justice why he should not divide it up into lots of six or eight beasts, keep offering them in lots of six or eight beasts until a sum sufficient to pay the debt due was realised, and then return the surplus stock to the owner? Unless the purpose is not only to recover the amount due on foot of land annuities, but to penalise and victimise individual farmers, that course would be followed. I have moved this motion on the adjournment for the purpose of charging the Government with something graver than that.

The purpose of such a question on the adjournment is to elaborate a matter raised at Question Time, not to bring charges.

My elaboration of it is this: There was no explanation vouchsafed for the refusal to divide this man's stock and other articles into lots, into modest numbers, so that they could be sold to advantage. The reason of that refusal is, I believe, because the Government want to exasperate respectable farmers in Cork in order to justify the taking of coercion measures against them. That is a criminal activity for any Government to engage in. The agent provocateur was sent out 30 or 40 years ago by the British Government when they could not otherwise exasperate men to break the law, when those men stood united within the law, conforming with the law, but resisting injustice. The agent provocateur was then sent out to stir up trouble and violence so that the military could be let loose on the people. Sergeant Sheridan was sent out. When the people stood fast and would not be excited into deeds of violence, Sergeant Sheridan was sent out in order to do the deeds of violence and plant them on the people. I submit that to take £1,000 worth of property from a hardworking farmer and sell it under his very nose for £75, leaving him and his wife and family destitute, is the act of an agent provocateur and this is done with the intention of driving these respectable men into violence, into breaches of the law, to provide the Government with an excuse to victimise and to trample them and lastly, to evict them.

I implore the Government to stop that. We have used, and are using, all the influence at our disposal to prevent defiance of the law in any part of the country. We will continue to do so, but I solemnly warn the Government that if they are going to embark on a course of gross and flagrant injustice with the view of provoking these men into defiance of the law in order to get an opportunity to victimise and then evict them, I am quite prepared to advise them to resist the evicters' battering ram with all the energy of their forefathers.

We are going to get what is due to the community. (Interruptions).

You are the man who said the people should be shot down.

If Deputies cannot restrain themselves, they should leave the House. They should not, as has been done, presume too much on the fact that it is eight minutes to 11 o'clock.

Who started it but Deputy Smith?

I presume Deputy Dillon raised this matter on the adjournment in order to give me an opportunity of saying something. Apparently, Deputy O'Leary and others on the opposite benches are endeavouring to prevent me saying anything. This method of raising a question on the adjournment is largely used for that purpose and not with any sincerity at all. What position have you in Co. Cork? You have a certain number of Blueshirt farmers who look upon impeding the Fianna Fáil Government as their normal duty and do not look after their farming interests at all—that does not matter at all, it is of no importance. They endeavour to impede the Government as far as they can. Up to six or eight months ago there was no such thing as a seizure in Co. Cork, but we had at that time the cutting of telegraph poles, the blocking of roads and interfering with the railways, although the telegraph wires and railways were not used in any way to interfere with these farmers. Now we have all this talk about trying to drive these farmers into rebellion, and so on. All that went on before ever there was a seizure in Cork—the cutting of wires and the blocking of roads and railways.

Give a definite instance.

Dr. Ryan

It was only in April, 1935 —three months ago—that the Government began to give assistance to the under-sheriff to collect land annuities. At that time there was an agitation amongst the farmers that these cattle should not be bought when they were brought to the pound. They went to their friends and told them not to bid and they would not bid themselves and when another person, who was not a Government agent, made a bid, they tracked him and tried to interfere with him selling the cattle wherever he could bring them. When that did not succeed they started branding the cattle in order that they would fetch a ridiculously small price. After all that has occurred, after the farmers themselves have tried as far as they could to make these cattle worthless at these sales, we have this speech from Deputy Dillon just as if the Government were trying to prevent these people from getting a reasonable price. We have heard Deputy Dillon say that these are law-abiding men, those men who have cut telegraph wires and interfered with the railways. I read in the Cork Examiner of 26th June— yesterday—that a certain gentleman in the County Cork whose cattle were seized said in a speech afterwards that they would pay the land annuities when the present régime came to an end.

What régime did he refer to?

Dr. Ryan

The Fianna Fáil régime, I suppose. What other régime is there? And these are the law-abiding men that we had to get special powers to go down to and deal with! They will not buy themselves, but they have tried to prevent a decent price being obtained for their cattle because they have the cattle branded so that they cannot be disposed of; at least, so far as they can prevent it.

Who shot the people?

Dr. Ryan

They have done their level best to make it as dangerous as they possibly can for any person to bid for the cattle. Then they come along and get innocent Deputies—if I may call them innocent—to raise this question in the House. They get these Deputies to complain bitterly that the Minister for Justice is unable to secure a high price for their cattle. It is hardly necessary to remark that that sort of humbug does not deceive anybody, not even Deputy Dillon. The Deputy complains that these buyers are getting large profits. I hope they are. It is the only way this campaign can be stopped— when we get buyers who will go there and get large profits. They would need large profits with the risks they are running in these places. I hope they are getting large profits and will continue to attend these sales. At Fermoy the other day I notice they bought in their own cattle. That is a departure, and perhaps it is the dawn of commonsense for these misguided individuals. Deputy Dillon and others say they have counselled respect for the law. Where? They have never condemned any of these outrages, such as the cutting of wires, the breaking up of railways, the burning of T.D.'s houses—they have never condemned anything.

Nonsense, absolute nonsense.

Dr. Ryan

And still they say they have counselled respect for the law!

What the Minister has just said is something that is not true.

Dr. Ryan

The dawn of sanity is appearing. They are beginning to buy back their own cattle. It is nearly time that they became sane. Surely those men, if they have any sense, would not have their cattle seized and would not be paying, not only the annuity, but the sheriffs' expenses as well. Surely they ought to pay those annuities before the cattle are taken to the pound. I am quite sure if the Minister for Justice were here he would have no apology to make. I have none to make on his behalf for what has been done. The men who led this campaign are to blame. It was not condemned by the men opposite, who were responsible for it by making it impossible for anybody to buy the cattle, marking and branding them so that nobody could buy them.

The very words Clanricarde used.

Dr. Ryan

As a Government we have been proceeding as leniently as any Government could proceed.

With guns.

Dr. Ryan

The Minister for Justice said there was no Government agent buying these cattle. That is true, but that is not a promise. A Government agent will, if necessary, be appointed and every step will be taken to make these men pay the land annuities where they can pay them. It is evident from the case mentioned by Deputy Dillon that the man could pay the land annuities, but he preferred to have this political show in order to defeat the Fianna Fáil Government. Why do they not pay before the sheriff comes and cut out all the trouble?

He had not the money.

Dr. Ryan

Whatever defence the Deputy may make it is evident from what he said that this man could have paid. Those people should pay their debts. The Government are not going to stand for it.

Why do not the Minister's friends pay their own debts?

Dr. Ryan

That is about all I have got to say. There is no apology being offered for this policy and, if necessary, further steps will be taken to get these men to obey the law.

Does the Minister stand over that sale at that price?

Dr. Ryan

Does the Deputy stand over it? Your own Party organised it.

Does the Minister stand over that? He ought to answer a simple question. Can he honestly stand over it?

He dare not stand over it.

Does he stand over the murders—shooting men down?

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 28th June.

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